Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Theodoros on February 09, 2014, 04:00:48 pm
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It is almost a decade that the camera has been discontinued, yet the S/H prices seem to be rising… How is this explained? The demand seems higher than it should be.
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Perhaps it's the fact that it is a good system? There is a consistent demand, and a fixed supply.
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I sold my Contax 645 4 years ago. Since then prices have only gone up. A kit probably costs $1,000 more now than it did 4 years ago.
Supposedly the camera is very popular amongst wedding photographers with Jose Villa being quoted as very influential:
http://www.interviewsbycrashtaylor.com/2009/05/15/crash-taylor-interviews-jose-villa/
http://josevillablog.com
I don't believe the Contax 645 is being considered as a digital platform by most buyers.
Most people who buy them seem to use them for film. Used Contax digital backs are also pretty rare.
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My observation is it's opposite. The price is dropping, although it's still high. For example, a 120mm lens was about $1300 an year or two ago, but now it is usually under $1000.
The reason it is dropping is the result of the diminishing supply of digital back, not the dropping of the demand. You can hardly find any digital back for Contax 645.
If you happen to see one, get it immediately. As far as I can tell, the price is usually very good. Typically a 39mp digital back will be around $8000~$12000. It will be at the high end if it is Contax mount and low end if it is for Hasselblad H1/H2.
Hasselblad H1/H2 is getting cheap too. This is also due to the lack of digital back. You are likely to pay more for the lens. It would be about 20~30% more expensive then Contax for a 3 lenses system (wide, standard, and mid-tele).
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Prices for used Beseler 4x5" enlargers like mine, on the other hand... ;)
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P1 representative, when interviewed by Michael in lula claimed that "they have a surprisingly high number of MFDB orders from Contax owners", both Leaf and P1 make Contax fit for all their backs… It also seems that the lenses are very popular among Leica S system owners and prices of lenses which have dropped for a while, now start rising back...
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My observation is it's opposite. The price is dropping, although it's still high. For example, a 120mm lens was about $1300 an year or two ago, but now it is usually under $1000.
The reason it is dropping is the result of the diminishing supply of digital back, not the dropping of the demand. You can hardly find any digital back for Contax 645.
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Hasselblad H1/H2 is getting cheap too. This is also due to the lack of digital back. You are likely to pay more for the lens. It would be about 20~30% more expensive then Contax for a 3 lenses system (wide, standard, and mid-tele).
I guess you are talking about used back availability?
Because Leaf/P1 both produce every back they make in a Contax-mount and H-mount option (which works on H1/H2 as well as H4X).
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You are absolutely right. But the OP is talking about the used Contax pricing.
Contax DB is still relatively rarer compared to other MF systems. That affects a lot on market price.
Yes, if the price of new DB makes sense, it will bring up the camera's price. Your are welcome to do so.
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It is still an amazing system and many people still love them. You can still get PhaseOne and MamiyaLeaf backs for them (I believe) and even so, people use them as their workhorse cameras, and if they have an investment in say like a P65+ invested into the Contax mount and your body dies, you can't get it repaired I don't think and it this point in time since they are no longer making the system, there are a fixed amount of them and in scarcity the price goes ^^^. Great system beautifully mechanical, great lenses, shame the brand is gone.
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On a related note, It's a shame that one has to jump through a ton of hoops to get a digital back on a Bronica ETRSi. Now there's a workhorse system if there ever was one. Beautifully rendering lenses and everything is now dirt cheap.
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Get the second Contax body, it should cover the concern. It's dirt cheap.
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You are absolutely right. But the OP is talking about the used Contax pricing.
Contax DB is still relatively rarer compared to other MF systems. That affects a lot on market price.
Yes, if the price of new DB makes sense, it will bring up the camera's price. Your are welcome to do so.
Yes, if it is rarer, that can affect market price - usually higher, though not always.
I would expect a product like the Contax system to have a fluctuating market price due to the perceived and real scarcity of the system as well as the low sample rate compared to other systems that are more popular, where prices are typically more consistent.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Leica M film is in the similar situation. It is still strong in the used market. I think Contax 645 has about the same size of volume.
Leica M 's lens had a low time right before M8/M9. I remembered the Tri-Elmar 28-35-50mm ran for about $1500. Since the resurrection of the digital M8/M9, the price jumps like crazy.
But I do not expect Phase DB to have the same effect to Contax 645.
Phase One has very good DB, but the camera and the lens system have not created the marketing heat like Contax/Zeiss.
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It's not only Contax. The Mamiya 645 AFD (1,2,3) are also somewhat higher in price on the auction site compared to a year ago.
However the Contax keeps it's price because it's a great camera (and excelent lenses).
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It is still an amazing system and many people still love them. You can still get PhaseOne and MamiyaLeaf backs for them (I believe) and even so, people use them as their workhorse cameras, and if they have an investment in say like a P65+ invested into the Contax mount and your body dies, you can't get it repaired I don't think and it this point in time since they are no longer making the system, there are a fixed amount of them and in scarcity the price goes ^^^. Great system beautifully mechanical, great lenses, shame the brand is gone.
Don't know about the States, but Tritec in Europe (Germany) does service Contax and they also provide spare parts… Never the less, reliability seems to be in a high level.
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On a related note, It's a shame that one has to jump through a ton of hoops to get a digital back on a Bronica ETRSi. Now there's a workhorse system if there ever was one. Beautifully rendering lenses and everything is now dirt cheap.
That's (ETRSi) what I was using for 20 years, before I switched to Contax on 2005… It seems that MFDBs are much easier integrated into a system if there is no cocking of the shutter involved… Hence the MF cameras that have a build in motor in the film back to advance film, are easier to work with MFDBs… Part of the reason why Contax has such a strong market presence...
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what better platform for MFDB can you get for a comparable price?
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what better platform for MFDB can you get for a comparable price?
Probably nothing as well built, including the hasselblad H.
The only issues with the Contax is the prism viewfinder is a somewhat small view, think mamiya df and of course if you need in shutter lenses, they don't exist, though that's becoming less of an issue for us as we have moved so much of our production to constant lighting.
I don't follow used prices, but from time to time go onto KEH which used to have a fairly large supply of contax, though today I think they have one lens, so either the cameras are wearing down, or people just decided to keep theirs and not upgrade to another platform.
Everybody knows the lenses are sharp, the cameras are smooth and the camera has a much different character when used with the waist level finder.
It is a camera you have to become use to. It's very robust, (except th exposed shutter if you change backs and it MUST have constant contact between the prism, the lenses and the back, so all contacts must be kept Cartier polished clean. In autofocus it will also run through batteries and the right angle grip should only be used to finish the set, not as a run until dead system.
The other plus is being focal plane their are so many lenses available, I can't imagine a situation you can't produce a certain look and if you really wanted to go crazy, you can have cinema lens companies make adapters or mounts for about any lens that will cover the frame.
There is also not a 100mm f2 lens other than the Hasselblad F 2 110 which I use, but only from 2.8 on as stopping down and focusing is not easy, wide open it's a snap.
The only other downside is my case is just huge, but that's me, not the average user. You could easily use it as a street camera with an 80 f2. a waist level finder, no right angle grip and a strap.
With a fast back like the p21 it shoots just about as fast and response and medium format film.
I have to admit I'm still amazed that the complete line was closed as they covered rangefinder, medium format and 35mm dslr.
In regards to repairs, the few I've had have been completed well and since I have double everything, it doesn't make it an issue, other than don't expect to walk into your local rental studio's equipment department and ask for a lens if yours packs up, because they don't have them anymore.
Actually, I've gone multiple times and tried and priced all medium format brands, hasselblad, phase, leaf and other than the rear screen, of the newer backs, I don't really need a different system, as I'm not over the moon about a gazillion megapixels anyway.
That's the reason I bought the Leica S2. It allowed me use of my contax lenses, with a little better lcd and made the system more mobile.
Great cameras, but not for everyone.
IMO
BC
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what better platform for MFDB can you get for a comparable price?
MO is none… However there are people that find the AF "outdated" or they need higher sync speed… I guess it's a matter of needs and compromises… I know people that think of Contax more than Hassy H, but they still got the Hassy (or other) because of the above.
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I have to admit I'm still amazed that the complete line was closed as they covered rangefinder, medium format and 35mm dslr.
IMO that was a consequence of Kyocera being a dabbler (by intent) in the photo world. Kinda like how Fuji and Ricoh now are but with even less upper-level commitment/interest. Digital confronted them with the need to get more serious about the whole enterprise, to invest more in R&D...and after a start in that direction they blinked and changed course. Not worth the bother.
-Dave-
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I don't follow used prices, but from time to time go onto KEH which used to have a fairly large supply of contax, though today I think they have one lens, so either the cameras are wearing down, or people just decided to keep theirs and not upgrade to another platform.
in fact this is a bit alarming. here in Germany normally it used to be not a problem to get for instance a mint Planar 2.0/80 for a decent price. But for some time it's really hard to find one (even an overpriced one). The most common lens being sold is the 45mm (which comes to no surprise since it's the weakest link in the Contax line). But right now even this lens is hard to find.
2 years ago it was really hard to find the WLF and the vertical grip. Today you'll find some... at very high prices from professional dealers.
Fortunately here in germany there is still excellent service for the Contax 645 system. So you maybe don't have to buy everything double. However, I am sure happy that I have 2 bodies, 3 finders (2x prism, 1x WLF), 3 battery grips, 2 80mm lenses and several matte screens as backups. I've also once bought the Vario Zoom as a kind of "general" backup (and, well, because it's a nice addition to the system if I would sell it alltogether one day. But I will not sell it... as long as it works, I'll use it. The zoom is a great lens, BTW).
I feel it's getting harder and harder to invest in the Contax system. Unless you can buy a complete kit it will take some time to assemble all the items you need... Some years ago it was much easier.
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IMO that was a consequence of Kyocera being a dabbler (by intent) in the photo world. Kinda like how Fuji and Ricoh now are but with even less upper-level commitment/interest. Digital confronted them with the need to get more serious about the whole enterprise, to invest more in R&D...and after a start in that direction they blinked and changed course. Not worth the bother.
-Dave-
Zeiss official position is that Kyocera demanded less QC on the produced lenses to save costs… Only a few know that P1 offered a large amount to Kyocera as to get the rights and remake the C645. Only after the had a denial, they moved to acquire Mamiya. Now, some see in the C645 system, the perfect "bridge" to link Leica and Sinar, since there is no platform for Sinarbacks and C645 lenses are fully compatible with the Leica S on all their functions… I guess the resurrection of C645 is quite possible instead of Leica developing a new MF platform with interchangeable backs so that they will support the sinarbacks and link the two companies (Leica and Sinar) better…
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MO is none… However there are people that find the AF "outdated" or they need higher sync speed… I guess it's a matter of needs and compromises… I know people that think of Contax more than Hassy H, but they still got the Hassy (or other) because of the above.
This was my line of thinking as well. I kept the H1 because of better autofocus and because it was easier to find used backs in H mount. I later upgraded the H1 to an H2 and then to an H4x. The sync speed was never an issue for me. Right now I am guessing the overwhelming majority of the new backs are M mount anyway for use with the DF+ and/or tech cams. There are probably still more new backs in H mount than in C mount but I expect the difference to be a lot smaller and both quantities to be fairly small. Perhaps one of the dealers can confirm.
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This was my line of thinking as well. I kept the H1 because of better autofocus and because it was easier to find used backs in H mount. I later upgraded the H1 to an H2 and then to an H4x. The sync speed was never an issue for me. Right now I am guessing the overwhelming majority of the new backs are M mount anyway for use with the DF+ and/or tech cams. There are probably still more new backs in H mount than in C mount but I expect the difference to be a lot smaller and both quantities to be fairly small. Perhaps one of the dealers can confirm.
I briefly tested a Contax 645 (does not fit my hands) and Mamiya 645 DF (same issue). I am still looking for a "portable" semi-automated MF camera to match my RZ. However since I am a film shooter, I'd like it to be able to swap film and digital (the RZ can take any back there is with an adapter). I have no handled an H system camera (no option to do so in my country).
Anyway it seems that the RZ is the best all-round MF system at the moment for both film and digital (however everybody has their own requirements).
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I briefly tested a Contax 645 (does not fit my hands) and Mamiya 645 DF (same issue). I am still looking for a "portable" semi-automated MF camera to match my RZ. However since I am a film shooter, I'd like it to be able to swap film and digital (the RZ can take any back there is with an adapter). I have no handled an H system camera (no option to do so in my country).
Anyway it seems that the RZ is the best all-round MF system at the moment for both film and digital (however everybody has their own requirements).
Many would argue in favour of the Fuji GX680 instead… It even covers much of view camera use… Additionally, Fuji can take any mount back without any modification of the fit, while RZ can do the same only with V and M645 mount backs, at higher cost too… That's what I use along with my C645… I replaced my Sinar P2 in favour of the fuji for whenever I need movements or high sync speed… It is very handy to just take the C-mount back off the Contax and just attach it on the Fuji… Dirt cheap too and only a dedicated cable needed to turn it into MS capable…
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My only complaints about using the Contax 645 with MFDB is the problem of the camera automatically going into sleep mode after a few seconds that as far as I know cannot be prevented and has caused me to lose quite a few magic moments, so maybe not the best combo for shooting from the hip, plus the care that needs to be taken with center-weighted focussing when the aperture is wide open so subjects focussed on using the old aim, focus, reframe approach do not end up out of focus that is perhaps partly due to the curverture of the lenses that are designed for film not digital and also partly due to the idiot behind the camera.
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My only complaints about using the Contax 645 with MFDB is the problem of the camera automatically going into sleep mode after a few seconds that as far as I know cannot be prevented and has caused me to lose quite a few magic moments, so maybe not the best combo for shooting from the hip, plus the care that needs to be taken with center-weighted focussing when the aperture is wide open so subjects focussed on using the old aim, focus, reframe approach do not end up out of focus that is perhaps partly due to the curverture of the lenses that are designed for film not digital and also partly due to the idiot behind the camera.
I've find good practice to use the camera in MF mode and use either the thumb button to focus automatically, or focus for max contrast manually when there is a risk from reframing, I don't find particular field curvature issues with any of the lenses, sometimes re-framming causes different positioning of the image area… especially in hand hold situations. Besides, focusing accuracy of the C645 is not the best around….
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Many would argue in favour of the Fuji GX680 instead… It even covers much of view camera use… Additionally, Fuji can take any mount back without any modification of the fit, while RZ can do the same only with V and M645 mount backs, at higher cost too… That's what I use along with my C645… I replaced my Sinar P2 in favour of the fuji for whenever I need movements or high sync speed… It is very handy to just take the C-mount back off the Contax and just attach it on the Fuji… Dirt cheap too and only a dedicated cable needed to turn it into MS capable…
Last time I checked, Leaf offers adapters from H/C/V/M to RZ for their backs (I don't see an issue why they should not work with other backs since those are just metal plates).
I considered the GX680 also, but it is above my size/portability threshold (RZ just fits in).
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Still surprises me, that Leica S adapter didn't immediately influenced C645 prices as it did with Hasselblad H bodies, ….also, because of the "S" adapter, prices of lenses should come up since they can now be bought by Leica S users too and function as been dedicated to it. It seems that there is much more "resistance" with Contax than the one of Hasselblad H system….. I expect that to change, (i.e. bodies to come down in price and lenses to rise considerably), but certainly this isn't the case yet… although I know that many Leica S users are buying the lenses.
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Still surprises me, that Leica S adapter didn't immediately influenced C645 prices as it did with Hasselblad H bodies, ….also, because of the "S" adapter, prices of lenses should come up since they can now be bought by Leica S users too and function as been dedicated to it. It seems that there is much more "resistance" with Contax than the one of Hasselblad H system….. I expect that to change, (i.e. bodies to come down in price and lenses to rise considerably), but certainly this isn't the case yet… although I know that many Leica S users are buying the lenses.
There are probably more contax lenses sold than we now about, because there are so few contax lenses for sale used and two years ago I could find any lens with very little searching.
They're a perfect fit for the Leica S(2).
I just bought the 120mm Leica 2.5 and was curious to see how well it focused on the S next to the Contax lenses and not a knock on leica glass, but I don't think it focuses as fast an accurate as the Contax lenses.
I can see where the H lenses would be in demand for this camera given the leaf shutter and Hasselblad has some interesting lenses, though I don't think they throw focus as pretty as the Leica and Contax, but that's subjective.
Regardless, the S is the only larger than 25m camera that takes multiple autofocus lenses that function as well on the Leica body as they do in their native systems.
Leica has always been a strange company. Their prices are high, the hold to their brand and don't seem inclined to drop down lower just for the ability to gain some market share.
I don't know how well the S and S2 sell, but I know I'm glad I bought it and it's such a nice piece of equipment to use.
It's not perfect, but it shoots a pretty file.
Though when it comes to costs, here's what makes even the cinema guys eyes pop when it comes to costs.
(http://leicarumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Leica-Summicron-C-cinema-lenses.jpg)
These C's sell for $100,000, to $128,000 for the set.
IMO
BC
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That is clearly more than expected if 22mp MFDB prices is taken into account.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Contax-645-kit-with-PhaseOne-P25-digital-bag-/271401131897?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&autorefresh=true&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=SShfe1KP%252BxxWtwkYHZGmve51%252BYs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
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That is clearly more than expected if 22mp MFDB prices is taken into account.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Contax-645-kit-with-PhaseOne-P25-digital-bag-/271401131897?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&autorefresh=true&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=SShfe1KP%252BxxWtwkYHZGmve51%252BYs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
This is actually not that high I find.
A Contax 645 kit tends to go for just short of $3k. So add $4-5K for a P25+ digital back, an extra body and 2 additional lenses.
If the material is all in good shape this is probably below current market prices IMO.
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This is actually not that high I find.
A Contax 645 kit tends to go for just short of $3k. So add $4-5K for a P25+ digital back, an extra body and 2 additional lenses.
If the material is all in good shape this is probably below current market prices IMO.
It could be near the right price if one would sell things separately… but as a system, it is way too high. It simply is very difficult for the purchaser not to already have the lenses included, or any body at all… which leaves only some that want to do a "new" Contax entry into digital with a complete system and back up body… rare isn't it? It rather seems to me that P25+ is considered an excellent choice and that people prefer to "risk" having additional equipment (which they could buy "live" S/H at the same price - but have it checked) and sell it again. Just "forced" to make the move to get the back… I may be wrong, but it looks the most sensible explanation to me.