Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: torger on February 04, 2014, 10:14:09 am
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In photokina 2012 DHW announced the HS1000 electronic shutter, a drop-in replacement for Copal 0, powered and controlled through a micro-USB port.
(http://www.popphoto.com/files/imce_uploads/electronic-shutter-no.-0-hs1000.jpeg)
Since then it's been silent about it, and now when I look at the DHW homepage I only find the older Rollei Electronic Shutter.
What happened?
We've had a few bulky electronic shutter systems for those that likes cables, large ugly boxes and working in a studio. I was hoping this could at least be the shutter for field work in future technical cameras, especially now when manufacturing of the original mechanical Copal shutters have ceased.
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I had had high hopes for this too. But it seems to have faded away. Love the power idea, via the Micro USB, and I thought at the time it was anno'd you would control it via the iPhone or similar device. However as I recall the cost for one shutter was around 1K US which was a bit much for me.
I would still rather see more solutions like Alpa's FPS, as this way you just add a modular focal plane shutter and don't have to do anything to existing lenses with a Copal. Cost and time to remount to a electric shutter is quite a bit. I keep hoping to see other solutions (Actual products that will ship) from the other companies out there.
The Current electronic shutters are way to limited in my opinion in both available shutter speeds, how the operate, and power i.e. tethered solution.
I would love to be able to get 1/3 stops again.
Paul
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Hi All,
This shutter is still in the works and coming soon. It's been duty tested at 1/1000th for 100,000 cycles in continuous use and a few prototype units have already been given to a customer last fall. My understanding is that DHW has changed the circuit board (and supplier) and needs to retest these before going into production. These will be more expensive than the current shutters, however as they won't require a lens controller the cost could work out similarly. They are the only electronic shutters that can reach 1/1000th sync speed. iOS and Android apps are planned. This will be very cool indeed.
I have the data sheet on these in the downloads section on my website.
Eric
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More expensive is pretty much a no go as the current electronic ones are 1K. Hope they do well but that's a bit too much. Makes more sense to invest in a FPS if you haven't already made the move to a tech camera brand yet.
For each $$$ spent for the new (and as of yet un-tested) one of these new shutters, you have to send in your lens, to be re-colimated for the new shutter. That has to be done by the lens company, i.e. either Rodenstock or Schneider. You can add another 500 to 800 for that. Plus no guarantee the re-colimated shutter is aligned correctly. Lot of time and money.
This type of solution IMO only works on a new lens, but still the cost of over 1K just for the shutter is a bit too high for me. Alpa has the right idea, just can't go there now.
Paul
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Thanks for the update Eric, glad to hear that there's progress!
Price seems to be a killer for amateur use :-\, but we can struggle with the Copals for yet some time :)
Do you have an approximate price indication? €1500 per shutter? €2500?
Focal plane shutter is great economy for you only need to pay once for the shutter, but the vibration issue and increased flange distance is a problem with them I don't like.
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What is wrong with Copal shutters?
Yes the new shutter seems like a very cool item coming onto the market, but the length of time it takes to have the shutter mounted, and then remounted onto the camera mount is very long. I just bought a Roddie 90mm and it took month and half (actually two if you count the two weeks Arca took off for the holidays) to have the old shutters replaced and then for Arca to mount it. That is a lot of time.
But if I were to buy new, maybe I would consider it.
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What is wrong with Copal shutters? I think there are two answers: one is that they are not making them any more, so there's the Chicken Little reaction: "what will I do, my shutter may fail in a hundred thousand more shots," and the other I suspect is the usual internet hunt for the latest and greatest thing; an electronic shutter rather than a mechanical one.
I admit to falling prey to the first: I bought a new Copal shutter on eBay last year. :)
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Yes the main problem with Copal shutters is that they are not being made any longer. There's probably stock for a few years still though, so there's no hurry.
I'm also interested in the long-term development of "my" format (field tech cameras), that's why I find shutter development and new backs and anything else relevant to the format interesting. I also believe that tech cameras would gain from becoming a bit more automatic and integrated, and having a good electronic shutter is a part of that.
Although phone apps are fine I'd also like to see that the interface is open for camera body manufacturers to integrate with, I rather control the shutter from the camera body than my phone.
Since the price is going to be higher than I'd like, I do hope that Copal shutters can stay "standard" for quite a while more though. If not and these leaf shutters will cost €2000+ each I suspect that focal plane shutters will become the new standard.
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I understand, Torger. I just prefer a shutter with a button to press or a cable release.
I know that controlling a shutter with an iPhone is a cool "app;" I just don't want to do it.
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I know that controlling a shutter with an iPhone is a cool "app;" I just don't want to do it.
I agree, I hate shutter control boxes. So far electronic shutters have been ugly hacks with cables hanging all over and large boxes etc, clearly made for studio work only. If some electronic shutter could be made to work well in wide use cases it could actually become a standard and then tech cam body manufacturers could actually implement shutter controllers in their bodies, and we get something nicely integrated, hopefully reliable too. Something I could trust and bring out for long hikes, like I do with an SLR type of camera which have been electronic for quite a while.
The HS-1000 looks like it could be something like this, but it may also be a "studio only" type of product, I'm not sure. It shall be exciting to see when it arrives to market.
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In regards to problems with Copal's:
In the U.S. I know of only one place that can work on them, Precision Camera works in IL. They are also the repair center for Arca products at least heads and the like. So long term, not sure there is a good solution for repair. Precision is run by one person as far as the work done on shutters, they are great but going out 10 years not sure what will be there.
If you have to replace the shutter, it's not an easy deal, as the lens will have to be re-colimated by the lens company. As I mentioned before this is not a quick or cheap job. 6 to 8 week turn around unless it's late July or all of August when a lot of Europe is on holiday. After re-colination, the lens has to pass back to the Camera company, Arca, Alpa or Cambo to be readjusted, i.e. fit with a new lens mount. Add another 2 to 3 weeks and a bit more $$$
Actual range of shutter speeds on a copal will always vary. Some have a habit of giving 1/45 when you are at 1/30 other will jump 1/250 and hit 1/350th. Some will not ever give 1/500. Accuracy is not a strong point. I have 6 and all of mine have issues between 1/125th and 1/500 in getting 1/250th which is a shutter speed I seem to prefer. A couple of them also are very hard to get to give either 1/30 (instead hitting 1/45) or 1/60 (instead hitting 1/90).
Lack of 1/3 or 1/2 shutter speed increments is a huge issue for me. I shot with my DF last week due to a issue with my IQ260 and it reminded me of just how nice it was to have 1/30, 1/45, 1/60, 1/80, 1/25 etc.
In regards to the the electronic shutter driving a difference between amateur or pros, I don't see that at all. All of my revenue is based on either my photography or printing and I use a tech camera 100% of the time with a Phase One back when the shooting conditions allow it. However I am not willing to just add in another 1K--1.5K for a electronic shutter, one that is a stand alone setup, probably will have issues with the sync with a Phase One back, and requires a dongle/iPad, whatever hanging around. One that also appears considerably larger in diameter than the copal solution, I am sure adds more weight and may create issues in adjusting the aperture depending on the lens/camera mount. Example Schneider 35XL on Arca. or 43XL for that matter.
For that I would rather see a Focal shutter solution. No doubt if the issue with Copal was known in 2011 when I made the switch I would have given Alpa more consideration. They do seem a bit more forward thinking and ahead of the game with products like the FPS.
Paul
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By chance, is DHW also planning a Copal 1 replacement as well?
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In regards to problems with Copal's:
In the U.S. I know of only one place that can work on them, Precision Camera works in IL. They are also the repair center for Arca products at least heads and the like. So long term, not sure there is a good solution for repair. Precision is run by one person as far as the work done on shutters, they are great but going out 10 years not sure what will be there.
....
Paul
If all you need is a CLA on a Copal shutter, I can list at least 5 reputable shops here in LA alone that can handle a CLA, no sweat. Can't you simply unscrew f+r elements before taking your shutter in for a service? What's this "re-colimnation" business? Shouldn't the shutter's tolerances be the same after being reassembled with the same parts(shell, threaded barrel, etc...?
Just asking. I still use 4x5 and 5x7 view cameras w/ film, but having had many CLA's done on various shutters over the past few years, I've never seen a "need" to send the lens elements in with the shutter itself ???
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One that also appears considerably larger in diameter than the copal solution, I am sure adds more weight and may create issues in adjusting the aperture depending on the lens/camera mount. Example Schneider 35XL on Arca. or 43XL for that matter.
The 43 and 35 is out of question afaik for FPS, I think the 60mm is the shortest from Schneider Digitar you can use with Alpa FPS, but please correct me if wrong. A problem with a focal plane shutter is that it takes up space and thus rules out symmetrical wides. Symmetrical wides is something I happen to like about the tech cam format so I hope they won't disappear, which they probably will if focal plane shutter becomes the new standard. If it wasn't for this I also think focal plane shutters would be the way to go. Shutter vibration worries me a little, but I think it can be handled.
Electronic shutters are indeed a bit bulky. They fit on a small technika lens board though also the short focal lengths, not sure how pancake camera lens mounts do though.
My realistic guess is that symmetrical wides will die anyway, as sensor tech don't do them well currently, especially CMOS, and few see the advantages of them (smaller, lighter, cheaper, distortion free, nice bokeh), and with stronger retrofocus designs we can fit the focal plane shutter in there. But I still hope the symmetrical wides can get through this difficult time (shutter on the way out, new sensors not supporting them).
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Daniel. You make a good point.
Yes as I understand it as long as you keep the original shutter you are fine tolerance should be the same. I was referring to sending in an existing Copal mounted lens to have the electronic mounted in its place. This requires recolimation.
Thanks for the leads in LA for repair.
Paul
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"If you have to replace the shutter, it's not an easy deal, as the lens will have to be re-colimated by the lens company. As I mentioned before this is not a quick or cheap job. 6 to 8 week turn around unless it's late July or all of August when a lot of Europe is on holiday. After re-colination, the lens has to pass back to the Camera company, Arca, Alpa or Cambo to be readjusted, i.e. fit with a new lens mount. Add another 2 to 3 weeks and a bit more $$"
How critical is the exact mounting if you use the same spacer as the lens used in the old shutter?
Does the thickness of the shutters have tight tollerances?
And if the adjustments are that critical, what if the lens is slightly moved or slightly unscrewed?
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How critical is the exact mounting if you use the same spacer as the lens used in the old shutter?
Does the thickness of the shutters have tight tollerances?
And if the adjustments are that critical, what if the lens is slightly moved or slightly unscrewed?
It's more critical in digital than in film, as digital project to a smaller surface. In fact, some "digital" lenses are exactly the same as the analog version with the sole difference that tighter tolerance numbers were used during mounting.
I've heard that the thickness of Copal shutters don't have tight enough tolerances to be trusted, ie you might need to shim the lens if you replace the shutter.
Slightly unscrewed should affect sharpness, one can test and see. Probably it depends a bit on the exact optical design how sensitive it is concerning front and back element spacing. If rays are passing through the shutter near perpendicular it should not matter much.
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It's more critical in digital than in film, as digital project to a smaller surface. In fact, some "digital" lenses are exactly the same as the analog version with the sole difference that tighter tolerance numbers were used during mounting.
I've heard that the thickness of Copal shutters don't have tight enough tolerances to be trusted, ie you might need to shim the lens if you replace the shutter.
Slightly unscrewed should affect sharpness, one can test and see. Probably it depends a bit on the exact optical design how sensitive it is concerning front and back element spacing. If rays are passing through the shutter near perpendicular it should not matter much.
+1
Exactly the way I understand it also. The tolerances are very tight, and the lens needs to get back to the manufacturer to be colimated (process of re-alignment).
Paul
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Torger,
The new shutters will probably be in the $2100 range, but I'll know more exact numbers when they are ready for sale.
Being able to control these via USB without a controller box will be really great and as mentioned iOS and Android apps are planned. Electronic shutters are more precise and repeatable than Copal shutters plus they can be operated remotely unlike the Copal ones that need someone there to cock them. The current Rollei electronic shutters can be changed in 1/10th stop increments.
Regarding tolerances and lens calibration - I'm going to have to spend some time with Imatest on this to find out for sure. Currently, I've never noticed a difference. Those of you that have unscrewed an element before (perhaps to fit it to a lens board or something) think on this: How tight is the right tightness? How much of a turn is there between just touching and snug? If the pitch on the threads is .75mm/turn then even just 1/8 a turn is about 1/10th of a mm travel - quarter of a turn makes almost 2/10ths. And you have that for front and rear elements. Copal 0 shutters should have 20mm between front and rear mount faces. How does a factory calibrate this? Do you suppose that schneider or rodenstock are cutting down the shutter if its too big for the lens pair? I've only seen shims but even then very rarely? Color me a skeptic.
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Thanks for the guesstimate on cost!
I suspect that the price will be a bit too high to become a real Copal replacement. With my six lenses it would be $12K just in shutters, ouch! It's more and more looking like the future in field cameras belong to focal plane shutters.
I just wonder how shallow those can be made. I just made a quick measure on my Linhof Techno, at infinity the rear element of my Schneider Digitar 35mm is about 21mm from the sensor. It's not a wide gap to fit a focal plane shutter, but perhaps it can be done.
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"Those of you that have unscrewed an element before (perhaps to fit it to a lens board or something) think on this: How tight is the right tightness? How much of a turn is there between just touching and snug? If the pitch on the threads is .75mm/turn then even just 1/8 a turn is about 1/10th of a mm travel - quarter of a turn makes almost 2/10ths. And you have that for front and rear elements. Copal 0 shutters should have 20mm between front and rear mount faces. How does a factory calibrate this? Do you suppose that schneider or rodenstock are cutting down the shutter if its too big for the lens pair? I've only seen shims but even then very rarely? Color me a skeptic. "
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This is exactly my thoughts. I have also remounted some lenses and have never seen any problems with sharpness after doing so. And that should be very easy to see on a 80 mp sensor?
If it helps I would gladly pay to get my lenses calibreted, but I would like to understand what they really do.
As far as I know the shutters are not adjustable in any way so the only way to adjust them is to add shims.
But like Erik says, what if a smaller space than the shutters actual size should be needed?
Will they then just tighten the screw very hard or will they replace the hole shutter and try to find one on the thin
side of the tollerences?
And if the exact tollerences are that critical, what about the transport, variations in temperature and normal handling? Shouldn't the lens elements be locked in some way after the calibration??
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Yes, agreed. If it were so precise, you'd expect them to use some kind of method to hold them in that place. But I've been surprised before and I should really test this someday as I have the 80mp back and the big Imatest chart…
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Ouch, ~$2100 is pretty steep. But if they're rated for 100K exposures, that would make them pretty much an "indefinite" product in my eyes.... IIRC, mechanical Copal shutters were recommended to be serviced every 4-5k shots? That's still a lot for most of use LF shooters, but maybe less for the digital folks who bracket shots for HDR'ing later on?
Eric,
are these going to be pretty well weather-sealed, so they'll be suitable for outdoor use in wet/damp or dusty/windy conditions? Mechanical stuff is one thing, but when electronic boards are included in the mix, well I think you can get my point here. For ~$2100 I'd hope they'd be darn well sealed up :o
-Dan
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The 100k test was a worst case - run continuously at the fastest cycle rate and highest sync speed of 1/1000th. I've been told before by an integrator of the Rollei shutters in industrial processes that they are getting over a million actuation's on average. There aren't any electronic shutters out there doing even the 1/500 that the current Rollei shutters can do so 1/1000th is pretty neat.
Can't say on the weather sealing …. and can't wait until I have one of these in my hands to check out. I'm dreaming of building a 4x5 TLR with electronic shutter controlled by arduino via usb.
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Hey Eric,
No problem, I'm sure you'll have one asap after(maybe before?) they've released to the public. Can you send me an email with your thoughts on it once you've had a chance to play with it a bit :D?
As you're aware through our prior correspondence, I'm still all film-based for my shooting(other than my little X100s which is a constant companion it seems nowadays). Anyhow, I still like to keep up with the current tech, as my inner geek likes to get all hot 'n flustered over what's new and exciting! That new P645D(II?) sure looks nice, but it's out of my current budget. 5x7 and 4x5 sheet film is a little slower going, but I like the process, and my Nikkor and Fujinon lenses still put out great shots, nice and crisp!
Anywhoooo, when I first saw some rumblings about an electronic Copal 0 compatible shutter, I thought "Cool, now I can save up some shekels to put some of my lenses in to digital shutters(I'm a sucker for "do as much as possible in the film") so I can control things even more, and have more consistency from shot to shot". Well, seeing that it looks like only a Copal 0 version will be released(no Copal 1 I gather...) I'll have to pass on that idea, as 1/2 of my 6 lenses in my kit use a Copal 1, and they happen to be the three main lenses I use ;D).
But I'm glad to see DHW making strides in the tech cam/view camera world, where I'm sure the majority of these shutters will end up. Helping make honest shooters money, and housing nice glass!
-Dan
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I'm told by DHW that I'll have one of the new shutters in my hands in March…. stay tuned!
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Hi eric,
do you know if DHW will be at the photokina this year with the new shutter?
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No He doesn't yet. But I do :)
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Well, in this case don't tell anybody. There is a danger people might find out about it sooner or later.
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:) we will of course make an announcement in the next few weeks:)
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I've got one of these in my 'lab' now. They are quite nice - smaller and lighter than the previous generation with the USB and built in sync port. They appear to be very well made.
Thomas - don't tell Johannes, that I took apart one of my demo units to see what was inside. ;) Luckily I took pictures so I could put it all back together right.
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Stupid question, but how could these be used in the field when minimal weight is a concern? E.g. without a laptop...
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Stupid question, but how could these be used in the field when minimal weight is a concern? E.g. without a laptop...
Actually not a stupid question. Current designs require a USB dongle and control box an don't offer much more range in available shutter speeds. At $2100 per shutter to me a no go either.
Better solution to me is the Alpa FPS with a traditional focal plane shutter. But since I went the Arca road can't afford to switch.
Paul
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Hello,
I thought that there is a solution for a smartphone like iPhone?!? If I need an extra controller in a box this is a nogo from me in the field..
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I would assume the newer version would work with a iPhone are similar device to control the shutter, connecting to the phone via the charge port/USB to the shutter. It was my understanding that the older version had to be run from a PC connected to the shutter, which limited it to the studio environment in most cases.
Paul
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Stupid question, but how could these be used in the field when minimal weight is a concern? E.g. without a laptop...
Hi,
Not a stupid question - mobile apps are planned for the shutter.
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Paul,
The HS-1000 is unique in the realm of electronic shutters right now in its fast sync and shutter speed of 1/1000th. There are applications where a FPS or Hartblei might be better suited of course, but many where the HS-1000 will excel.
The previous generation Rollei electronic shutters were widely used even with the Lens control units and I expect these to do even better. With the USB interface a whole range of possibilities has been opened up - including bluetooth communication, stand alone / specialized control and applications.
Cost of the new shutter is higher, but less than the older shutter (which is still available) plus a lens control unit.
Also for thought - what will happen to all those applications that use mechanical shutters now that Copal has shut down?
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Eric:
I would love to see something other than the Copal manual and fixed shutter speeds. By far the single thing I miss the most since switching to the Tech camera world are 1/3 increment shutter speeds. They really do matter at iso 50
I have had 6, work with 5 and none of them can hit 1/250 (instead hitting either 1/180th or 1/350th), and 2 of them have problems with 1/30.
Hopefully this shutter will be shown at Photokina and the cost to retro fit won't be much more than the cost of the shutter. I can't move to the FPS having made the investment in Arca. Looking forward to learning more.
It would be nice to see Arca and Cambo come out with an FPS type solution, or at least a shutter.
I agree that in the next few years, something will have to start replacing the Copals.
Paul
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Awesome, if this unit can be driven by a smartphone and not need any other accessories for power etc, I'm in.
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... o.k. Eric, I'll keep it secret then. No need for anyone else to know what wonderful gadgets they conceive in Braunschweig, only for people like us to come in, hack them any which way we need them, and then use them for entirely different purposes they were originally designed for :)
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Paul,
The Rollei electronic shutters are capable of 1/10th stop and being electronic are more precise and repeatable from shot to shot.
TJV - the HS-1000 will need a separate power source than and iPhone or iPad probably but it could be a small battery.
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... o.k. Eric, I'll keep it secret then. No need for anyone else to know what wonderful gadgets they conceive in Braunschweig, only for people like us to come in, hack them any which way we need them, and then use them for entirely different purposes they were originally designed for :)
I have this personal project in mind - sort of a 4x5 TLR …. these new shutters could be ideal...
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TJV - the HS-1000 will need a separate power source than and iPhone or iPad probably but it could be a small battery.
Ok, any idea what an external power source might look like? Would it be cabled and ungainly, or do you think there's an elegant solution in the works? Seems a shame that a wired connection to an iPad mini or iPhone either isn't possible due to technical limitations if the connection or otherwise, juat imagine how cool it could be to control the shutter and receive wireless transfer of images from an IQ back?!
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tjv,
I'm imagining all kinds of cool things like you suggested - the possibilities are endless. I am really excited about this shutter!
If a phone doesn't have enough power, then a small battery could be used either close to the shutter or on the phone if you are using a cable USB cord. There may be other options too.
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Here's a look at the new shutter - these are pics of my unit.
Note the USB port and built in sync port on the side.
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Looking good. Can you share anything about the unit in use? How are you powering and firing it?
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TJV,
Right now just connecting via a micro USB cable to the computer. It gets power through the USB cable on the laptops and desktops.
Maybe I can make a little video of it running?
E
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Sounds good.
What's the software like?
Now that you've got hold of it, do you have any further ideas on how to power and fire the shutter in the field?
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Untill today,we still can not see the product on the market.
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Probably because technology is quickly replacing the need for a mechanical shutter. Most who wanted this are using view / technical cameras, and the DB’s e-shutter is so much simpler. Even with today’s version and its rolling shutter limitations, I haven’t used the copal shutter literally since the e-shutter feature update was released.
Doesn’t satisfy everyone, but it makes the market smaller for a product like this.
Dave
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Hi Eric
A few questions:
Do you know if these new shutters will hook-up to a Hasselblad back on a view camera such as Arca and run directly from Phocus software as the present shutters & controllers do?
If run from an iPhone or iPad are they connected via Bluetooth, or is wifi required?
Can you post a side by side pic with the presently in use electronic 0" shutter for size comparison?
Will this new shutter fit in an Area 6x9 recessed lens board?
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Hi Dave,
Interesting to hear! You are shooting IQ3100MP?
My take is that e-shutter is usable unless subjects are large and move fast. For instance leaf in wind is moving a lot, but it is a small object.
Best regards
Erik
Probably because technology is quickly replacing the need for a mechanical shutter. Most who wanted this are using view / technical cameras, and the DB’s e-shutter is so much simpler. Even with today’s version and its rolling shutter limitations, I haven’t used the copal shutter literally since the e-shutter feature update was released.
Doesn’t satisfy everyone, but it makes the market smaller for a product like this.
Dave
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Interesting to hear! You are shooting IQ3100MP?
My take is that e-shutter is usable unless subjects are large and move fast. For instance leaf in wind is moving a lot, but it is a small object.
That matches our experience and the experience of our clients. The question is really "how many pixels does the object move across during the exposure". So a leaf on a tree a hundred feet away that moves across 10 pixels during the exposure is absolutely fine; the sweep of the electronic shutter will render it utterly sharp and without any weirdness. A car in the foreground that moves across half the frame (roughly 6,000 pixels) during the exposure will be rendered with a strong "lean".
So yes, large and moving fast is problematic*. Most anything else is fine.
*Notably this doesn't absolutely eliminate use of the ES for objects moving large and fast. It just must be understood that such objects will exhibit a rolling shutter lean which renders shapes and object relationships in a way a viewer might find surrealistic or unnerving. In fact this technique can be used to great affect and can produce imagery that is otherwise not possible. It's just not a "normal" rendering of the scene; so if you're after "normal" would be considered a problem.
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Yes Erik, I don’t even carry a sync cord any more. Ocean waves, leaves or other natural movement appear normal to me.
Next to live view it is the best feature of the new backs. At least for technical cameras.
Dave
Hi Dave,
Interesting to hear! You are shooting IQ3100MP?
My take is that e-shutter is usable unless subjects are large and move fast. For instance leaf in wind is moving a lot, but it is a small object.
Best regards
Erik