Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: uintaangler on January 28, 2014, 11:25:59 pm
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I own an Epson 3880 and have been very pleased with both ease of use and print quality
Increasingly, I find myself tempted by the thought of making larger prints
Obviously, the financial commitment required to step up to a good 24" printer is about half of the cost of moving up to a machine capable of making 44" prints.
Since I can currently make 17" x 22" prints in the 3880 - is stepping up to 24" wide enough or does 44" make more sense.
Based on what decent framing costs, I have a hard time imaging that I will be doing very many 44" wide prints
A little background…..
** I am a hobbyist, not a professional
** I have sold a few prints locally and would love to sell lots more prints
** I shoot with a Nikon D800, so I suspect if I have my technique down, I should be able to get files good enough to print at 44" wide
** I don't really have room for either in my home office, so either way it looks like this machine will reside in the basement
Thanks,
Bob
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24" is small and the printer size isn't that much different - go with the 44". You can always get a 24" roll and print smalller but not the other way around.
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If you would "love to sell more prints" then the answer is simple: 44".
My first printer was a 24", because I could not imagine every needing anything bigger. My imagination let me down. Every subsequent printer was a 44" and the next one will be 60". I sell at art fairs and galleries, where framed pieces in the 30" to 50" high range (by 2 or 3 times as wide) outsell smaller prints by a very big margin and are much more profitable than smaller ones.
There are many posts on this forum from those who bought a 24" and then immediately wanted a bigger printer. And the other way, too, but the preponderance of the anecdotes regret not going for a 44.
Random fact: one of the main things that wears printers down is the change in direction at the edges of the roll. That stresses the printhead carriage drive mechanism more than merely moving along in the same direction If you gang up many prints on a single 44" roll, you get a far smaller number of changes in direction for a given number of prints.
The main downside of a 44" is that you can't just go knocking off small prints at any time. You can either gang up several prints on a wide roll, or load a smaller say 13" roll. Either way it's more work and complexity than using a smaller printer. You need to develop a kind of multitasking approach to printing, where you work on many images at the same time. That can be a little uncomfortable at first.
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This is one of the easiest questions asked on this forum. If you have a place to put it, and can afford it, get the big one. I like leaving generous margins around my prints, and that is made possible by the larger paper sizes. Also, if you might ever want to do canvas, you will need those extra inches. And seeing a gorgeous print roll out of a 44" printer -- !! (But just to warn you about its imposing size, my friends think it looks like a tanning bed, and at just over six feet wide, you can see why that is the reaction.) The Canon is on wheels that move it very easily on a smooth floor whenever that is necessary. Speaking of where to put it, I knew someone who had it in the middle of the space between his living room and dining room. It's worth finding a space for it! --Barbara
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Like Barbara I know of an installation where a Canon 8300 serves as a room divider in a 2 room bachelor apartment, and the space is better for it. There are even some Home Depot ferns snuggled up against it. You don't need to get behind it, so you can also push it up against a wall. Other than that, it is bit on the huge side. For almost 3 years now mine has worked perfectly in a space that fluctuates between 20% humidity (winter) and 70% humidity (evaporative cooled summer), and a wide range of temperatures. It is also rained on by flakes of Gatorfoam particles and an occasional dusting of varnish overspray. And it's quite close to a kitchen. No matter, it's perfectly happy and seems insensitive to such things.
You should have no trouble getting 40 x 60 inch prints from your D800. On the condition that your originals are very sharply focused and properly exposed. For most types of media anything above about 180 camera pixels per inch of print will give you a sharp looking print if your original is sharp, and you do reasonable post processing so as to not lose what you start with. With careful upsizing, it gets even better. If you want dazzlingly sharp prints, you can shoot stitched panoramas where you join together several side my side images (in Photoshop for example) to get a single high resolution image. It's not hard to 1/2+ gigapixel images that way. Two row, camera-vertical stitches with a D800 yield 300 camera pixels per inch of print at over 40 inches high, and those prints simply blow people away with the detail, assuming the right type of subject and presentation.
The one BIG THING about large printers is that unless you use them fairly often, you face the possibility of exquisitely annoying nozzle clogs that will degrade your prints. There are a few posts on LuLa about that, ahem. The 8300 is better than the Epsons in that respect, although that is just one of many issues that differentiate those and other printers. For instance, the 8300 doesn't handle sheets as well as the Epsons, it's much more roll-oriented.
Unfortunately, you are coming into this at a time when there are no big promotional printer sales going on. Usually, towards the end of the year the manufacturers give heavy discounts (I bought my 8300 for $2195), and sometimes at other parts the year. But we didn't see that in 2013. Could be those days gone, dunno. But you can talk to the sales people at various suppliers for heads-up tips on when those sales might pop up.
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Add a program to print from that deals with the nesting of images on the 44" roll width and more features like borders. Several choices these days for Mac and PCs. It does not have to be a RIP, for the nesting task adequate cheaper applications exist.
--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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From all of us that purchased a 24" printer thinking it would be wide enough only to get the 44" 6 months later.
Go with the 44"
One of the best deals around right now seems to be the Epson 9890 for around $3195.00 including a 1000ml of ink.
I think the 24" model is around $500 less then that.
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Hi Dan, that's exceptionally cheap, I'd have to take a gun with me to get that pricing in Oz, 9890 currently $8192.00 USD and 7890 currently $4950 USD, not sure why there's such a massive price difference.
Brian.
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If it was just shipping you would think it would be cheaper?
Japan - USA 5500 miles.
Japan - Australia 4200 miles.
As we know a whole lot more going on.
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If you can go big. Plus 24 inch is very limiting for canvas especially if you want a gallery wrap.
Paul
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I went with a 24 due to space constrictions. I still don't print with it often enough to justify the cost. But the alternative of letting someone else print my larger prints was unacceptable. YMMV.
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Hi,
If you are near Cincinnati I am selling my Canon ipf 8100 for $1,000. It works fine and has plenty of ink.
Mike
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Mike
That sounds like a sweet deal, but I am in Salt Lake City
Bob
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I was looking to pick up a 44" (or was it a 60"?) Canon off someone's lease when they went bankrupt, but the thing is huge! I found out they had to knock down a false wall to get it in the shop, and do the same to get it out. Even the sales guy for Canon said they had problems getting one in an elevator once. So I thought maybe the 24" would be better. Found out I cannot get it through the doorway where I want it so even that "smaller one" got nixed, that or put either in the garage where I'd probably have plugged heads every three hours from heat.
They really need a way to make these things some sort of component system to deal with moving them around. I don't know how you'd get a 44" into a basement without a lot of effort, or a winch and crane. Once it dies there, then will a serviceman be able to come out too? One on a display room looked the size of a double-decker casket.
SG
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If you can afford the larger printer, have room for space it uses (and in some cases the added noise it produces), go for the larger one, but otherwise you will probably not be unhappy about the lower cost for ink and paper/canvas that comes with a 24” printer.
Also the inks produce a particular scent and bigger prints produce more of this scent; due to that detail, ventilation is not a bad idea.
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I have 24" 7890. It is large enough in my space. I would have purchased a 9890 if space had not been an issue. The cost of ink cartridges is the same for both models. Since I insist on printing myself, I limited myself to 20" prints, on occasion I would like to make larger prints, so I sort of regret not having purchased the 44" printer and modified my workspace.
Jean-Michel
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I was looking to pick up a 44" (or was it a 60"?) Canon off someone's lease when they went bankrupt, but the thing is huge! I found out they had to knock down a false wall to get it in the shop, and do the same to get it out. Even the sales guy for Canon said they had problems getting one in an elevator once. So I thought maybe the 24" would be better. Found out I cannot get it through the doorway where I want it so even that "smaller one" got nixed, that or put either in the garage where I'd probably have plugged heads every three hours from heat.
They really need a way to make these things some sort of component system to deal with moving them around. I don't know how you'd get a 44" into a basement without a lot of effort, or a winch and crane. Once it dies there, then will a serviceman be able to come out too? One on a display room looked the size of a double-decker casket.
SG
I bought my 44" Z3100 2nd hand and had to help the fellow I purchased the printer from bring the printer down 2 flights of stairs. It took two of us and some squeezing, but we did it. Weight and more importantly, the bulk make it hard to maneuver around.
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Cry once and save lots of time & money. Buy the 44 from the git-go. You can alway just print 24 inch paper and it will open up more doors, especially if you are ever planning on printing to canvas or other specialty material.
I stared with 13, then went to 17, then a 24, now have a pair of 44 printers and a second 17. After the 17, I should have just bought the 44 and had been done with it!
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I have 2 sizes of printers.
If you like to print on canvas, go for the 44".
If you print on paper only, 24" is pretty much good enough for most photographer.
aaron
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First off, thanks to everybody who responded.
I am very appreciative of the wealth of information you have provided me with ;D
You have given me a lot to think about
It would help if could get another question answered…..
Having never done a print on canvas - what am I missing?
Seems this will play a part in the 44" vs 24" decision.
Bob
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Unless you flat-mount your canvas, you need from 2-3 inches for stretching canvas. That means on a 24 inch printer, you have an effective maximum width of perhaps 18-20 inches by whatever length you choose. Canvas seems to beg for big prints, so a 44 inch printer one can print up to about 38-40 inches by say 60 inches. 36 inch canvas allows up to about 30 inches wide, thus easy to produce a 30x40 or 30x50 print. Since there are few, if any 36 inch prints (that would almost be a sweet spot for a larger-fomat printer;-),
You sort of need to think like a chess player, many steps ahead and a camera or two. For me, I can easily print 10-12 MB captures up to 30x45. With my 36 MP camera, large is even easier and the image quality even better.
A 24 inch printer is nicely-sized for a smaller studio and there's nothing wrong with 20x30–24x36 prints. That's usually the maximum I do for 95% of my printing. However, with the 44 inch printers, they've allowed me to print larger for both maximum impact and to print many, many nice canvas images that, once stretched, need no framing. Coating and stretching is another issue you'll need to consider, along with having several friends with strong backs to help you drag your printer though your door and setting the thing up.
Paper storage is another thing to consider. You'll need more height or depth to store the rolls. 24 inch rolls fit in my custom cabinets, but longer, stays in the corner and under the table stacked. A cutter is another tool that comes in handy with these printers. I bought a 36 inch Rotatrim after getting my 24. I don't have room for a longer cutter, so wider than 36 inch stock gets cut on the floor with a straight edge.
A 24 inch printer can easily be moved by two people and takes up a little move than half the space of the 44 inters.
At times, I wish I had the 60 inch printer, but don't have the room. When I need it larger, I've got a couple of places who can do both paper and canvas and in ten years with my stable, only had one job that needed that size. Besides, 44 inch canvas/paper is already a chore to handle and load.
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I'm reading this thread with interest since I want to purchase a wider printer than my current 4900. I was intending a 24" model, but the posts have convinced me to go for the destination and not a way point :). I'm considering the 9900 and ipf8400. I love the Epson's output but would like to leave clogging issues behind. Space is an issue for me and I notice the 9900 is listed at 27" in depth and the ipf8400 at 38". At 38'', the 8400 will not pass through most doorways, which would be a problem for me. Is my conclusion valid? Anyone using a 8400 please comment.
Thanks,
Tom
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I have a 8300 which is physically the same size as the 8400.
It is just under 29 inches wide, 45 inches tall and 74.25 inches long.
It fits through a single 3ft doorway no problem. Its very heavy, you need
some strong help to move it.
FWIW I agree, if you are ever going to do canvas, get a 44" printer. I was told that
in the beginning, but still bought a epson 7900, now wish I had bought the 44" printer first.
Anybody want to buy a lightly used Epson 7900. ;D
Bill
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I was just measuring my doors and the front door is only 35" wide (on hinge) and interiors are only 25" on their hinges. I'm screwed on almost anything having a stand. Things are just to physically big for some older homes. We even had to find a smaller refrigerator to pass through the door even off the hinges. Only place would be an A/C garage (Ha!).
For the OP and going into a basement idea, I would only consider the Canon since they have user replaceable heads (or I hope so on the larger ones). An Epson might just end up dying down there on cost to replace them - and if you have to get it out of the basement to some service center to even do it.
SG
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As you begin by saying that you are drawn to large prints, you should get the 44" whether you end up doing canvas or not. For larger paper prints, I like a nice border to give the print extra stability under a mat when framed. This reduces the short side of a print you can do on the smaller printer to only about 20". You will want to go larger than that! As to canvas, I print on Innova's Ultra Gloss 380gsm, and love it. You will look at prints on this canvas and say, "What loss of detail?" It is gorgeous. Printing on canvas means you can present the image beautifully without having to use glass or plexi over that large expanse. This saves weight and expense. Also, canvas is robust, compared with even the heavier fine art papers, so can take handling without the damage that is easily inflicted on paper prints (I'm thinking torn edges; I would still be careful about surface abrasions, but I'm sure the canvas is more robust there too.) With the 44" printer, you will have fun (and probably open up business opportunities) without the limitations that the 24" printer would impose. (I may be having more fun because I got the Canon, which hasn't given me any problems, despite sporadic printing.) Also, as to size of the printer itself, give Canon, or Epson, a call and ask about the width of the printer without the stand, so you can know whether it will fit through your doors. I think the stated width dimensions include the stand and are larger than the printer itself. Two men can carry the Canon 44" if you're not talking stairs. Then I think I'd hire a mover who knows how to handle large heavy things on a stairway. Let us know how this works out for you. --Barbara
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Getting canon 44" printers through doorways and up and down stairs isn't easy, but it is doable for most situations. The biggest problem is getting them out. Once they have ink in them they can't be angled more than 30 degrees( as I recall- please confirm the actual number if it's important to you). Otherwise you have to waste huge quantities if ink and a maintinence cartridge before they can be moved.
I think you can get through as narrow as 24" if you have a straight shot by rolling the printer 90 degrees along the long axis.
As far as allotting space for a canon 44" printer in you home or studio, just allow the same footprint as a standard single twin bed. That helps the visualization when moving from a 17" desktop that you though was huge already :) ( and weighs about 350 lbs with the stand).
Stuart
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Stuart is right. The body of the 8300 is 24" high without the stand. So if you rolled the printer 90 degrees
it will fit through a smaller door. This is fine with a new printer before you put the ink in it.
The problem is getting it out. Draining all the ink so you can roll it, to get it out is going to be very expensive.
The stand is easy to remove.
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Another vote for the 44". I also have the 4900 and debated about it or the 7900 on the first purchase - but knew I wanted the 9900 in the long run. Having the 4900 is great for small prints (I do a lot of corporate work and sell thousands of 8x10s each year using 10" rolls), or sheets up to 17x22". I also mostly keep it on PK ink. About a year later I got the 9900 (a year ago this month) and LOVE the large prints from it. I mostly print MK ink with it so anything up to 17" I can print with the appropriate MK/PK without swapping ink - I just swap printers. I do a lot of canvas and with my stretching pliers I usually need 6-7" extra from the image front for wrapping and stretching. The 7900 would have been very limiting. The 4900 with the 9900 make a great combination in that I can run large jobs on both printers with exactly the same results.
The key to these large printers, even the 4900, is to use them often AND to keep the humidity level between 40 and 60%. There are other posts about clogging that will cover this.
There are pros and cons about Canon or Epson. When I was having some clogging issues with my 4900 I was considering replacing it with a Canon, but if you follow the problems, there's just as many quirks with the Canon as with the Epson. One is cheaper head replacement but more often, you get more ink with the initial purchase but them pay more for refills - it's difficult to determine the exact costs of either one. I think it would mostly wash out in the end. I love my Epsons, but the advice I gave to a photographer living in a remote area was to purchase the one that could be readily serviced. They had a Canon rep considerably closer than the Epson so that was the deciding factor - and I think a good one.
If you follow some of the clogging issues and the solutions - you'll see that most issues can be overcome IF you use and maintain the unit properly from the beginning - with either brand.
But definitely go for the 44 inches!
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I'm not the OP, but I thank everyone for their replies - I'm convinced, no 24" for me.
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The key to these large printers, even the 4900, is to use them often AND to keep the humidity level between 40 and 60%. There are other posts about clogging that will cover this.
40 - 60% humidity, is that even a possibility living in Utah?
We're talking about an indoor environment where you can see the spark when you walk across a carpeted floor and turn on a light switch!
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I get the impression that printer will not print day in day out. Consider an HP Z3200 44" too in that case. Way easier to transport as well. Read what it has aboard.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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40 - 60% humidity, is that even a possibility living in Utah?
We're talking about an indoor environment where you can see the spark when you walk across a carpeted floor and turn on a light switch!
That's my environment all winter and use HP printers without any clogging. All the babying required of the Epson's turned me off them. Glad I went the HP route...now I just print rather than maintain.
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Hi Chez,
Which HP 44" to you recommend?
Bob
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I would recommend getting an HP. I have personal experience with both Canon and HP. The Canon will cost you a fortune if you have any issue with the printheads - cleaning consumes an unbelievable amount of ink. You have little control when it starts its cleaning cycles - you just realize you lost a ton of ink. When you have a bad printhead it can actually damage other components. If you are not under maintenance they charge $1500 flat to fix the machine - not including consumables It requires 2 printheads - each which cost $500 retail and many people report having to replace them every two years. The HP on the other hand has 6 printheads - you get them online for $10-$40 each and they tend to last a long time. The unit doesn't burn nearly as much ink when cleaning and I hardly every have clogs. It just works. Now the paper handling is better on the Canon because it has a vacuum system. As far as print quality they are both very good - but the Canon is definitely faster and quality might be very slightly better in some media - depends on what your printing.
I would stay away from the Canon unless you intend to always have maintenance and are in production mode - then you have more leverage with your local rep so you don't get burnt on the ink.
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I have used an 8300 for 3 years and over 30,000 square feet of media.
Cost to me: $450 for one reserve printhead, to save me waiting overnight for a free replacement from Canon.
Total time spent in maintenance in three years: maybe 20 hours tops.
Total days lost to maintenance: 2 or 3
Visits from the repairman: 0.
Average telephone wait for a highly knowledgeable support guy who can tell me anything about the 8300 from the top of his head: a few minutes.
Support guy's command of English: better than mine.
Basically the 8300 is insensitive to humidty and temperature. Mine lives and works in a very messy environment, and usually features a visible dusting of canvas varnish overspray.
I am very happy with that machine. It so rarely costs me time and aggravation that I can hardly believe it, especially in contrast with my previous wide printers.
Reports of heavy cleaning cycles baffle me. The piece of tape on my present maintenance cartridge says "Dec 9, 2012" and I still have 20% left. Not 2013, 2012. That's right about 90+, 44" rolls ago. If there is some routine operation that costs a lot of ink, I have yet to see it. But to be honest if the printer says "change the head" you need to believe it and stop doing pointless cleaning cycles. I suspect many reports of excessive cleaning cycles come from holding on to a damaged or worn-out head that might be easily replaced under warranty, or which would be more economical to change under any circumstance rather than trying to milk it further The ink-saving rule: know when to say goodbye to a sick printhead, because it they don't get better real soon, they never will.
I suppose $450 per head would be steep if you were out of the previous head's warranty, but you will rarely have an out-of-warranty issue if you really use the printer. I can hardly count the times with my old 9880 when I would have felt blessed to fix a head issue for a mere $450.
PS, anybody with an 8300 should upgrade to firmware 1.26 ASAP. It makes a big difference in printhead land.
Bottom line: wide format printers are professional tools designed for high duty cycle work. It's not quite like buying a 30 ton printing press, but it's in the same ballpark. I use mine to make a living, and since every head change has been in warranty, I sometimes think I have died and gone to Heaven. However, most amateur users may not be so fortunate under warranty terms, and they may think they have reached some other place.
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Bill, thanks for the response.
Are you doing anything in the room you use for printing that might be a factor - humidifier, etc?
I worry a little bit more because I suspect the relative humidity in my home may be lower than 10% in the winter
Bob
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The relative humidity in my printing room has been between 15 and 20% since about October. And my 8300 right now has a very thin dusting of acrylic varnish overspray, from coating canvas this morning on an adjoining porch. The printer room is evaporatively cooled in the summer, for humidities around 70%. Zero problems either way. I never do anything to mitigate temperature, humidity, or dust. I mean, I'm positively callous with that printer! I think I'll go over and give it a big hug right now. Oh wait, the dust...
With my 9880 I used to keep a small tray containing a wet sponge in the printhead area. (Don't forget to remove it before printing!) With the way the 8300 hood works, you could probably snuggle up such a thing right next to the printhead parking area, but still out on the printing platform. I envision maybe a squarish quart (or liter) jug with the top cut off so the moisture would be directed into the printhead garage, rather than away from it along the printing platform. But I have never felt inclined to do that.
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Bill - you basically confirmed part of the issue. You changed most of your heads within the warranty period - well that is 1 year. Who would expect that heads would fail in 1 year. The heads for the IPF series have known problems where the actual ink itself will cause internal problems to the heads. So just sitting around with ink in them - independent of usage will cause them to fail. There also was a bad batch of them a while back. So if you don't use it every day - and the machine does a deep cleaning on its own ( because it detects to many missing jets) - the maintenance cartridge will go from 0% used to 60% used - that's alot of ink. Then you are at the decision point to change the head or try another cleaning cycle - that's little event probably cost $200-$300 in ink if not more. The maintenance cartridge will cost you another $99. The HP has no maintenance cartridge.
The service manual says that a cleaning B cycle uses 5 grams per color or 60 grams (ml).Well it automatically will first do an A cleaning and then will do up to 3 B cleanings - so that's should be about 180-200 grams or ml for that cleaning. That's 1/2 a cartridge. But it seems like it's even more if you go by the maintenance cartridge capacity which is 1280 grams x 60% - that's - 768ml. So the point is it's alot.
Like I said - when it works it's good -if you have a problem it's a very expensive machine to troubleshoot and repair.
The maintenance cartridge replacement is another $99. The HP has no maintenance cartridge.
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I don't print to sell, just for my own enjoyment. I think that what you have not mentioned yet is how much more expensive can be to display paper prints, a canvas print can be stretched, on very inexpensive wood bars, and is ready to hit the wall and be on display. In your own wall or someone that buys your art.
A paper print needs to be matted, framed, glassed. That was my reason to get a 44
I prefer the look of an elegant well framed and matted print on great paper, but the expense can be a killer
Hugo
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I asked a question here last week about upgrading to either a 24" or 44" wide format printer and many of the comments revolved around the idea that a 44" printer is the way to go for canvas prints
I have never tried printing on canvas and would like to see for myself how it differs from the prints I get on my Epson 3880 using high quality matte papers like Moab Entrada Natural and several of the Hahnemuhle papers ( German Etching, Photo Rag Satin )
Will my Epson Stylus Pro 4000 do OK with a roll of 17" Canvas paper?
I know that won't leave much of an image if I intend to stretch and frame - but that is not my intention
I want to see how canvas prints compare before making that a factor in going to a 44" vs 24" printer
Also, I would appreciate any suggestions about which Canvas paper to try because the 4000 being as old as it is - I sometimes have trouble finding good ICC profiles online for all papers and I don't have the tools, nor the IQ, to create my own profiles
Thanks,
Bob
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I don't print to sell, just for my own enjoyment. I think that what you have not mentioned yet is how much more expensive can be to display paper prints, a canvas print can be stretched, on very inexpensive wood bars, and is ready to hit the wall and be on display. In your own wall or someone that buys your art.
A paper print needs to be matted, framed, glassed. That was my reason to get a 44
I prefer the look of an elegant well framed and matted print on great paper, but the expense can be a killer
Hugo
I find it costs me more to mount a canvas as I farm it out to a framer. I frame my own traditional prints without glass and the cost comes out less than having my canvas prints stretched onto stretcher bars.