Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: dgberg on January 25, 2014, 11:48:33 am
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As of late I have been getting more internet orders from other photographers for small prints.
The only sheet size paper I have here is 8 1/2" x 11" mainly for proofs.
Everything else is in rolls,17,24,36 and 44"
The time that it takes to print several small prints 8x10 or 8 1/2 x 11, wrap them drive them to the post office or UPS for shipping is just crazy expensive.
Those several small prints might generate $13 or so and take over an hour till you get them in the mail. You do not need to be an economics professor to figure that one out.
One of the options would be to require a minimum dollar amount purchase (Am thinking at least $50.00).
I just had to tell a customer I could not print and ship his small 2 print order. (If he is lurking my apologies.)
As most of you know all of this goes away when you order several midsized or larger prints.
So how are you printmakers out there handling your smaller print orders?
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Dan - Why not make it easy on yourself:
http://www.whcc.com/products/prints/print-fulfillment
Their prints are impeccable and they drop-ship anonymously.
Charge a nominal fee for pushing buttons.
-Mark
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None of these are my images. I am printing for artisans and photographers from across the country.
Many of the fine art and photo papers I offer are not available from print fufillment houses.
For example I have BFK Rives on a 17" roll and someone wants 1- 8"x12" image. The money just does not match the effort.
Many of these artisans have fought through tough economic times like the rest of us. Sales are opening up a little for these groups but it really seems to be in small sizes.
I was first thinking of eliminating the smaller sizes to solve the problem as I hate minimum purchase restrictions.
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I was first thinking of eliminating the smaller sizes to solve the problem as I hate minimum purchase restrictions.
That is what I'd do. either that or minimum quantities/$ amount.
I don't take online orders but when someone comes in for a print, i tell them there is a minimum amount for those small, one off prints. Then I point to the Epson 11880 and they understand. They usually decide to not do it, but they understand. I would rather not bother with those small orders anyhow, so it works for me.
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Do like you're thing, Dan. Minimum order $50.00
or
First print $50.00 2nd print, (less), third print much less.
That way, you won't get hurt, and they can get the small prints if they really need them.
These are trying economic times for everyone - they'll understand.
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I remember this conversation with you when I was there a couple of weeks ago Dan.
Since then I've thought that perhaps you can offer your printing service only for small prints (little effort to print 1, cut, roll and ship) and limit the framing to larger prints only/min order.
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I offer letter size prints, but agree it's a big problem. Until now it seemed something unavoidable to offer, and hoped it would result in repeat business, etc.. I'd certainly offer it to clients who are regularly in for a variety of services.
After several years though, I'd rethink it, a minimum order is a good idea. As you say, people have no idea the time that goes into even the smallest order..losing valuable time to activities with little return is our biggest killer.
Tyler
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Dan, after looking at the pricing page on your website and after putting on my old Accountant’s hat, I will offer these comments:
1. If you were a large company you would be ripe for an exercise in “Activity Based Costing”. You are not large but even so it is worth doing some pencil and paper calculations to identify the major cost components of each of your products. You would probably be quite surprised at the results.
2. Having said that, there is no direct relationship between cost and selling price. Overall you would want prices to exceed cost, but many companies operate with a great disparity between the two. This might be due to ignorance or by design with “loss leaders” being the most common type.
3. So given your market, do you want to have loss leaders and do you think that low price 8x10s will lure more lucrative business later on? Generally I would think that the really lowball purchasers would have gone elsewhere and what you are getting are the artisans/photographers who want a top grade product that they cannot get at Costco. If they like your product then they are likely to buy again. YMMV.
4. There is no bottom to the pricing for small prints and there is no profit to be made unless you are very high volume. To illustrate this, last year I was persuaded by the wife to do two shooting gigs at major formal balls for free. When the women dancers wanted prints of themselves in their glory and I charged $10 for a 4x6 (and they only wanted 4x6s) they were incensed since they could go to Costco and get a 4x6 print for 8 cents. No thought was given to my costs or value of the image and Costco were just using it as a loss leader. Needless to say they did not get the images and bad feeling was spread around.
5. When I look at your pricing page you appear to be the author of your own misfortune. It is setup to show a highly professional company that can do almost anything for the photographer. Many varieties of print, many papers/canvasses, any size you can dream of AND low prices with no control of order size. It looks like a grocery store in which you can buy 1 can of peas or a dozen, all at the same unit price.
6. The pricing list actually invites me to buy one 8x10 for $4.80 less a 20% discount as a first time buyer. Even if you used a $50 minimum order charge (which I think is quite reasonable) I could tie you in knots ordering an 11x14 canvas, plus 4 different variations of paper size and type.
7. Whatever you do needs to be able to fit within your website’s software without too much difficulty.
8. As simple solutions, after you work out your real costs, in addition to the comments offered by others, you might consider:
a. Removing anything less than 11x14 from your price list;
b. Keep the small items but make the price the same as 11x14s;
c. Keep everything as is but add an “Order Processing Charge” to small orders however you define them.
d. Keep your existing pricing but require minimum quantities of the same image for the small sizes. You can say that with your equipment you need to print multiples in a 3-up or 4-up manner to avoid wasting paper.
There are many other options, but first consider the magnitude of the problem. Is it just irritating or is it real and does the cost of a fix exceed the cost of living with it??
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That is what I'd do. either that or minimum quantities/$ amount.
I don't take online orders but when someone comes in for a print, i tell them there is a minimum amount for those small, one off prints. Then I point to the Epson 11880 and they understand. They usually decide to not do it, but they understand. I would rather not bother with those small orders anyhow, so it works for me.
Same here! ...unless it is a restoration and I am charging for PP time and effort and then work their prints into other print job sessions .
David
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Ian,
Thank you for taking the time to comment.
I started several years ago offering the smaller sizes because that is what my local photo clubs were buying.
All pickup and most were for club contests. I wanted to keep the prices low for small prints so when they would want large I would be there printmaker of choice.
Yes I guess it is a loss leader. If you look at my canvas mount pricing I already have deleted anything in the 8x10 size. The gal that works on my website is in the middle of refining my print and mount pages so now is a better time then ever to make these changes.
I will probably keep the 8 1/2 x 11 size as I have all the papers in that size that match my larger rolls.
Looks like I am still in need of some type of minimum when shipping is involved.
Mike,
Nice to hear from you.
The problem is the time it takes to process,print,wrap and ship small print orders,just no money in it.
Has more to do with I have only 8 1/2 x 11" sheets and then 17" and 24" rolls. For example the customer only wants one or two 10" x 12" print.
Too much waste too much time.
If you look at my breakdown in my first post you can see what the problem is.
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You could also give the option to group ppinting/shipping, choose either a longer deliver time or a higher price for "express" shipping.
No change for you're local pickups ;-)
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In the interest of throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks, I'll share a friend's method: Standardize on 44" rolls and charge for the paper wastage. His take is that it minimizes stock and overhead while also discouraging single small prints.
Using the troublesome 8.5x11", the final charge combines:
- 8.5x11" of inked area
- 8.5x44" (or 11x44", if grain matters) of paper
...which, if you're billing on a simple size basis, naturally raises the relative price of small prints without any fancy programming, fancy math, or manual intervention.
Alain's suggestion is perhaps simpler still, but it's good to have options. ;)
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All good suggestions.
Part of the problem lies in some of these artisans do not want to buy and stock prints that are not sold.
I have already gone done the road trying to sell a half dozen prints when they only want (have sold 2). Rarely works as no one wants to stock them.
The other thing I have tried is suggesting they not offer these small sizes. Maybe start at 16x20 instead of 10x12.
That is also a tough sell.
Leaning more towards no more 8x10's and a $50.00 minimum
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There was a guy in my city who would "ride along" smaller prints on orders for large ones. It was a kind of a promotional thing, something like "Order a 30 x 60 and I'll stuff in some smaller prints in the otherwise unused 13" of a 44" roll." I believe this was a not-charged-for service, and it had to be the same image as the big one. He was charging top dollar, but he's not printing for hire anymore.
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Mike,
Nice to hear from you.
The problem is the time it takes to process,print,wrap and ship small print orders,just no money in it.
Has more to do with I have only 8 1/2 x 11" sheets and then 17" and 24" rolls. For example the customer only wants one or two 10" x 12" print.
Too much waste too much time.
If you look at my breakdown in my first post you can see what the problem is.
Yes, sorry Dan, I read your 1st post but then my mind slid over to our conversation about pricing stretched canvas print (small vs large). I think I'd consider going for 8c listed in Ian's post, some kind of handling or setup charge that could get you up to your $50 min, perhaps on a sliding scale. This discussion isn't all academic to me as I may be offering a lot more than my own prints next year.
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It’s of course up to you to determine, but you may want to try a lower minimum order fee of perhaps $30. The lower minimum leaves the door open for those who make smaller dollar amount orders instead of turning them away. They may end up ordering more. The decision ultimately is about how many small orders you end up turning away. If you’re busy and will not miss it, then a higher minimum helps to streamline the job sizes you handle. The other part is about repeat customers. How many make minimum orders sometimes and bigger ones other times.....
There is also the option of establishing a handling and shipping fee for orders that are under a certain amount.
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Dan;
I feel your pain!
I've been doing professional photography and printing for many years. Like you, I am eager to please clients. Many years ago I learned that even more important than pleasing clients is the need to stay economically viable, otherwise you just go out of business. At my studio I have a $75 minimum on all orders, I would love to have a $300 minimum so $75 is still a compromise. All of the printing I do is custom printing where there is a fair amount of labor and tweaking on my end to get to the print/photograph to the level expected.
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I use the minimum order quite successfully. Most of my clients will bring in several orders at a time, but if only one print is requested, they know they will pay more. Quite often they are just satisfying one of their own customers and will absorb the extra cost - but at least I'm making my minimum.
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I think the idea should be to encourage business, not turn it away.
Given the services you offer, why would you send customers elsewhere, when with the right pricing structure, you can solve their problem as well as yours.
Perhaps make a minimum order of $50.00, but keep your pricing the same, just institute a minimum order. They will probably just pay it, and they will understand.
For small prints, just place an asterisk and a note on the bottom of the page - $50 (or whatever you decide) minimum order.
Customers can decide if it's right for them, but at least you haven't made their decision for them. It could be that most will just decide to bump up their quantity.
This is always a difficult decision finding the sweet spot, but in my view, trying everything to keep the customer is the best way to go.
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Hello Dan,
I've been tuned in to this thread for a few days and have enjoyed all of the suggestions put forth, agreeing with many of them. I own and operate a small custom lab in the far east part of the GTA, a one person operation. My custom lab experience originated at McRae Custom Colour in Toronto, from 1968 through 1974. Some of you GTAers of my vintage may remember that lab and perhaps we've crossed paths many moons ago. In late 1974 I set up and eventually owned the business from which I am writing this reply. It has seen a couple of location changes, but a fairly steady flow of regular customers over those years and thankfully new ones added along the way. OK, so much for my history Dan. The question(s) you posed were of course the same ones all of us in the photographic printing business have to find answers to at some point. Few of us are immune to the struggles associated with pricing schemes, actual cost factors, and perceived value factors as seen by our customers. The way I have been able to stay with the program is to charge more for smaller size prints in relation to the larger sizes. For instance, if someone were to order wallet sized prints they are paying the same price as for a 5x7, which is a LOT more than what Costso or Walmart charge for their "excellent" work. My customers are well aware of the cost difference, but they are also WELL aware of the quality difference. As a matter of fact, some use Costco for some work and my lab for other "more important" work. I will say that I do not understand that rationale, but I'm glad to get the work, no matter what the situation. To break that down, my prices for any size up to 8x10 are more than any other lab in the area, but I still get orders for those sizes. Originally printing on two 7600s and now a 9900 I can make sense of smaller print sizes when needed, knowing that I am not losing money on them. Barring of course mechanical failures, which we all love to deal with. After I've had some experience with a new customer I will build a discount into their account, depending on volume and regularity of orders, as well as ease of printing. I will admit that I often go the extra yard or two -- processing, fixing and generally doing whatever is necessary to achieve the best print from a file. A procedure I'm sure that is most familiar with those of you who look at every printing job from a personal point of view. That's my image for now and I will treat it as such. I'm sure you've all been there. As far as paper sizes is concerned, I stock all sheet sizes from 8.5x11 up to 17x22 in the papers I use most. I fully realize that advantage of roll paper and gang printing, but I've never been a fan of having to D-Roll every print I make. I also stock all roll sizes 17" to 44" and print for minimum waste on any particular job.
My art reproduction work has been steadily growing over the past 4-5 years and of course offering canvas and fine art papers is all part of that. The one area I am never sure about is the final print pricing on the fine art papers. I do charge an extra percentage, but probably not enough. I think that's mostly a perceived "value added" situation and most of my customers have no problem with the prices. As a matter of fact, I often hear the words we all hate -- "wow, that's a great price". Meaning of course that I have obviously under-priced that item, but will have to wait a while before changing it. Canvas was always an issue as well until I finally decided to treat it as so many do, a commodity. I now charge by the square foot and also discount for regular customers. With the extra labour and time involved(3 finish coats) I feel it's well worth the price. So far the only ones who have complained were the ones I wasn't really interested in dealing with anyway, so it's all good.
Dan, I hope perhaps some of my ramblings have made sense and have been of some use to you. I guess to some extent they follow along with other posts here, but perhaps there's something here that can be of help.
Gary
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Mark and Gary
Good thoughts both!
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Kick Costco's butt!
Pick up one of these, hire a pretty girl to oversee that part the operation, and schedule the Brinks truck pickups! No problem!
http://www.itsupplies.com/Epson-SureLab-D3000-Printers-and-Accessories?gclid=CPfIhKi6obwCFRKBfgodP0sA1Q
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Hi Guys
Just adding to the thread with similar experiences to those above, re the small time wasting orders and costs associated. I've had a lot of new photographers come on board through fellow photographer members talking up my services and the bad prints they've had done at other places. Even though I've yet to implement something similar along the lines of minimum amount orders I decided to make the turn around timer longer to 5 to 7 days as opposed to 2 or 3.
I'd found I was running around doing the small jobs to get them out and leaving the bigger canvas/art works to languish. So far everyone seems happy with the wait and I can use my time and printer more efficiently.
Certainly the 'one size fits all' approach is what I've been doing, offering photo, canvas and art printing. I had looked at going into metallic prints but thought 'will it be more small orders?'. So either have a high price point for the service or minumum order/sizing. Points to ponder...
Neal