Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Brian Hirschfeld on January 24, 2014, 10:15:54 am
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Figured I'd get a nice search engine friendly thread running here about the new PhaseOne IQ250 CMOS medium format digital back. I'll bet getting my hands on one early next week and will report back in full on this camera and hopefully have some sample images as well as comparisons (certainly an ISO comparison) up soon.
Until then, here are some of my thoughts on the launch: http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2014/01/24/just-announced-phaseone-iq250-the-rise-of-cmos/ would love to hear what other people think.
Best,
BH
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Hi Brian,
A nice write up! Looking forward to your report on the back.
Best regards
Erik
Figured I'd get a nice search engine friendly thread running here about the new PhaseOne IQ250 CMOS medium format digital back. I'll bet getting my hands on one early next week and will report back in full on this camera and hopefully have some sample images as well as comparisons (certainly an ISO comparison) up soon.
Until then, here are some of my thoughts on the launch: http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2014/01/24/just-announced-phaseone-iq250-the-rise-of-cmos/ would love to hear what other people think.
Best,
BH
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Thanks, yes I will hoping to get my hands on it as early in the week as possible. Definitely going to shoot an ISO comparison with an 80mp or 60mp, prob 60mp since its the closest comparison, maybe both for the same money. Also going to see what happens when its put on a tech cam. Maybe do a little video so we can check out the live-view performance and if I can try out some long exposures. I think that pretty much covers all of the bases but please let me know if there is anything anyone else wants to see!
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Thanks, yes I will hoping to get my hands on it as early in the week as possible.
Hi Brian,
Article looks good, just change the shipping date to 2014 ...
Definitely going to shoot an ISO comparison with an 80mp or 60mp, prob 60mp since its the closest comparison, maybe both for the same money.
Don't forget to compare ISO 1600 + 2 stops push in postprocessing, with ISO 6400. There may be little difference other than 2 stops of highlight overexposure headroom.
Also going to see what happens when its put on a tech cam.
Yes, it will be interesting to see if the micro-lenses are an issue, and the smaller sensor may be an advantage with proper retrofocus lens designs.
Cheers,
Bart
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I'm not terribly convinced that it is 2014 yet....
Thanks for the suggestion I certainly will.
Yes, that is my only real point of confusion or disappointment with this CMOS system is that it might not be handy with tech cams since obviously thats one of the places where its live-view could be great. But, due to the microlenses and deeper pixel wells it might create color casts which are too strong for even LCC"s with 14 stops of dynamic range, but again, we will see what happens.
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The micro-lenses on the sensor will most likely cause issues with wide angle lenses on a tech camera. If they are anything like the micro lenses on a P30+ then any lens wider than 47mm will not be usable. It will be interesting to see how it performs during testing.
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Does that also apply to Rodenstock lenses?
Best regards
Erik
The micro-lenses on the sensor will most likely cause issues with wide angle lenses on a tech camera. If they are anything like the micro lenses on a P30+ then any lens wider than 47mm will not be usable. It will be interesting to see how it performs during testing.
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Odds are the Rodenstocks will be OK center and may allow for some shift, especially the 40mm and up. The 23 and 28 may have trouble period. The 32mm maybe also.
All the lenses are now base focal x 1.3 so wides are taking a big hit.
Paul
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ISO 400, 8 second exposure, IQ250 vs IQ260 please!
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Does that also apply to Rodenstock lenses?
As per https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-iq250-11-things-to-know we'll be doing testing.
I think the only things safe to say at this point is that Schneider wide angles are out of the question.
Which Roddys will work with what amount of shift with what results before/after LCC is still an open question. But one DT hopes to close with testing this coming week :).
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Hey Brian,
One thing these Exmor sensors are known for is thermal noise, presumably due to the amount of active circuitry on the sensor. In many ways, this is the only fly in the ointment. It would be very useful, if you get the chance, to check out the following:
1) Black frame at ISO 6400, 1/60th. (No NR in capture)
2) Black frame from (1) with +2EV exposure compensation
3) (1) & (2) after 1 minute of live view
If none of these tests reveal any thermal noise, this is a very good finding! It'd be interesting to see where the noise becomes intrusive. Trying at slower shutter speeds should reveal something.
Obviously, at some shutter speed there is a mandatory and automatic black frame subtraction, which pretty much fixes the problem. The black frame subtraction should probably be an option at high gain settings even at slower handheld shutter speeds.
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Obviously, at some shutter speed there is a mandatory and automatic black frame subtraction, which pretty much fixes the problem. The black frame subtraction should probably be an option at high gain settings even at slower handheld shutter speeds.
As per Doug's comment on GetDPI, there is a black frame subtraction at EVERY shutter speed.
(I have no idea how this works on a tech cam, because it would seem from the EXIF data that at higher shutter speeds, the back has no idea what the true shutter speed actually was.)
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As per Doug's comment on GetDPI, there is a black frame subtraction at EVERY shutter speed.
I did not see that! If that's true, I take back my request to Brian with apologies.
I think that this is an appropriate policy for these sensors. I wish that the D800 had an option to do black frame subtraction full-time if desired.
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The micro-lenses on the sensor will most likely cause issues with wide angle lenses on a tech camera. If they are anything like the micro lenses on a P30+ then any lens wider than 47mm will not be usable. It will be interesting to see how it performs during testing.
How do we know that there are microlenses on the sensor…? Is there any official information that has been posted?
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Hi,
I guess that a senior technical adviser at the largest Phase One dealer is pretty well informed on the IQ 250 sensor, don't you think?
Best regards
Erik
How do we know that there are microlenses on the sensor…? Is there any official information that has been posted?
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Hi,
I guess that a senior technical adviser at the largest Phase One dealer is pretty well informed on the IQ 250 sensor, don't you think?
Best regards
Erik
Do you mean Doug? …I would trust Doug, but I may have missed the post, can you please provide a link? Thanks.
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Hi,
No, the person you were responding to: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=72054
I also feel Doug is trustworthy, but he is not alone, Steve Hendrix at CI is a good guy, it seems.
But, there are probably a lot of misconceptions about microlenses. It seems that all new Phase One backs have microlenses, including the IQ 260. On the other hand microlenses have been improved.
Best regards
Erik
Do you mean Doug? …I would trust Doug, but I may have missed the post, can you please provide a link? Thanks.
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Guys, didnt you remark, this time, P1 hasnt asked a Architecture photographer to do marketing ,.. Normally they do, could be a hint in that :p
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Hi,
No, the person you were responding to: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=72054
I also feel Doug is trustworthy, but he is not alone, Steve Hendrix at CI is a good guy, it seems.
But, there are probably a lot of misconceptions about microlenses. It seems that all new Phase One backs have microlenses, including the IQ 260. On the other hand microlenses have been improved.
Best regards
Erik
Can someone enlighten us here? …Erik claims that all IQ2 series have microlenses… I know P65+ didn't have any and that Sinarback 86h & Exact (which use the same Dalsa sensor cropped at 48x36mm at 48mp) doesn't have either… I find it strange for Dalsa to have added microlenses on their sensors, they never had up until (and including) the 60mp sensor was introduced. I don't see why they may have changed… The backs (of both P1 & Leaf that use the same sensors) are quite popular among view camera users, they wouldn't be if they had any micro lenses on…
LATER EDIT: Just found this in Leaf's site… http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/architecture.html it claims that Credos are perfect for use on tech/view cameras with ultra wide-angles… I guess this solves the problem.
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All Dalsa 6um tech has micro lenses but a less crude variant, as far as I know. Color cast issues stem from various aspects of sensor design, so I think it's not a thing that is decided only by having microlenses or not. As users the only we can do is to actually test and see what happens.
Look at dalsa web site, they say "Micro lenses with wide angular response" in the presentation of their 60 and 48 megapixel 6um sensors
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/imaging/products/sensors/area-scan/FTF9168C/
Micro lenses vs no micro lenses is a property of the past, when micro lenses had really poor angular response. However, I guess the P65 could have even better angular response without micro lenses, but there is no such sensor on the market as far as I know.
If I understand CMOS tech properly it would work extremely bad without them, one would get like ISO 10 or something with huge vignetting so it's not really an option.
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Hi,
I don't think this is the case any longer, modern CMOS seems to have very large active area, due to thin area of transistors. The attached photo comes from a well published article from Chipworks, I think it shows pretty well how good fill factors modern CMOS sensor achieve.
http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-part-1-nikon-vs-sony/
Best regards
Erik
If I understand CMOS tech properly it would work extremely bad without them, one would get like ISO 10 or something with huge vignetting so it's not really an option.
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I believe that a lot of reasoning is based on past experience with the P30+. This back was not tech camera friendly for shifts and with many lenses, it had extreme color casts that even with an LCC could not be totally corrected. Phase One to their benefit always recommended that the P30+ not be used with a tech camera. And when the P30+ was being sold new, the tech cameras, and lenses available were a bit more limited. Most of the wides were in the Schneider line. Since then Rodenstock has continued to improve their retrofocus wide lenses, and you might find that with a 32mm @10K or 40mm @ 5.4K, you can use this new sensor.
What is more glaring to me is that it's a 2:3 ratio sensor due to the 1.3 crop. So all wides will suffer by this factor. If you are only using this for action shooting or low light with 80mm or more this makes a great alternative. Color cast aside, the same issue that the IQ140 and previous P30+ had is the 1:3 crop and thus your 28mm lens now is a 36mm around about. Plus since most tech camera view finders are set to the 4:3 ratio, example Arca varofinder, and a 1:0 crop sensor, it will makes things even more interesting in the field.
No doubt the Live view is going to be a great asset, and I can see Sony or even Dalsa coming out with a 60 to 80MP CMOS at 1:1 or even 1:0 in the future.
Paul
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I believe that a lot of reasoning is based on past experience with the P30+. This back was not tech camera friendly for shifts and with many lenses, it had extreme color casts that even with an LCC could not be totally corrected. Phase One to their benefit always recommended that the P30+ not be used with a tech camera. And when the P30+ was being sold new, the tech cameras, and lenses available were a bit more limited. Most of the wides were in the Schneider line. Since then Rodenstock has continued to improve their retrofocus wide lenses, and you might find that with a 32mm @10K or 40mm @ 5.4K, you can use this new sensor.
What is more glaring to me is that it's a 3:2 ratio sensor with a 1.3 crop. So all wides will suffer by this factor. If you are only using this for action shooting or low light with 80mm or more this makes a great alternative. Color cast aside, the same issue that the IQ140 and previous P30+ had is the 1:3 crop and thus your 28mm lens now is a 36mm around about. Plus since most tech camera view finders are set to the 4:3 ratio, example Arca varofinder, and a 1:0 crop sensor, it will makes things even more interesting in the field.
No doubt the Live view is going to be a great asset, and I can see Sony or even Dalsa coming out with a 60 to 80MP CMOS at 1:1 or even 1:0 in the future.
Paul
What is a 3:2 sensor? …the 50mp 33x44 new Sony sensor? …if this is what you are saying it's wrong. The new Sony sensor is designed specifically for use with MF cameras, if one crops a 24x36mm image area out of it, the result will come up to exactly 30mp which is totally irrelevant to the existing sensors that Sony is using for DSLRs (24 & 36mp).
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Typo on my part, I will correct it, the ratio of the 1:3 sensor is 2:3 just like 35mm digital sensors. Large 60MP and 80MP are 3:4 ratio. Just take a look at the Phase One spec sheet on their specifications page.
Paul
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I agree on both points. I actually don't mind 3:2 ratio, it is OK or not according to ones needs.
But crop factor is an issue, unless you decide to design a system around it, like Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax do and don't f__k yourself by offering a larger sensor like HB is doing.
Best regards
Erik
I believe that a lot of reasoning is based on past experience with the P30+. This back was not tech camera friendly for shifts and with many lenses, it had extreme color casts that even with an LCC could not be totally corrected. Phase One to their benefit always recommended that the P30+ not be used with a tech camera. And when the P30+ was being sold new, the tech cameras, and lenses available were a bit more limited. Most of the wides were in the Schneider line. Since then Rodenstock has continued to improve their retrofocus wide lenses, and you might find that with a 32mm @10K or 40mm @ 5.4K, you can use this new sensor.
What is more glaring to me is that it's a 3:2 ratio sensor with a 1.3 crop. So all wides will suffer by this factor. If you are only using this for action shooting or low light with 80mm or more this makes a great alternative. Color cast aside, the same issue that the IQ140 and previous P30+ had is the 1:3 crop and thus your 28mm lens now is a 36mm around about. Plus since most tech camera view finders are set to the 4:3 ratio, example Arca varofinder, and a 1:0 crop sensor, it will makes things even more interesting in the field.
No doubt the Live view is going to be a great asset, and I can see Sony or even Dalsa coming out with a 60 to 80MP CMOS at 1:1 or even 1:0 in the future.
Paul
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Look at dalsa web site, they say "Micro lenses with wide angular response" in the presentation of their 60 and 48 megapixel 6um sensors
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/imaging/products/sensors/area-scan/FTF9168C/
Micro lenses vs no micro lenses is a property of the past, when micro lenses had really poor angular response.
According to a Dalsa technical paper, it uses a new, different method of attatching micro-lenses that makes them lower and closer to the wells, and this mostly eliminates the problem of "micro-lens vignetting". This is supported by the spec sheets for Dalsa's recent micro-lensed sensors show an angular fall-off in sensitivity no worse that for Kodak sensors without micro-lenses, and far better than for Kodak sensors with micro-lenses.
But this new 51MP 44x33mm sensor is from Sony, not Dalsa, and it is not yet clear to me whether Sony has matched this improved micro-lens vignetting performance. (Maybe Doug will reveal all soon!) I agree that the claim of good ISO 6400 indicates that the new Sony CMOS sensor has micro-lenses. Note also that most or all previous 44x33mm sensors use micro-lenses, perhaps because the "sensor crop" imposed on 645 format lenses minimizes these vignetting problems. (Unless you use big shifts!)
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Typo on my part, I will correct it, the ratio of the 1:3 sensor is 2:3 just like 35mm digital sensors. Large 60MP and 80MP are 3:4 ratio. Just take a look at the Phase One spec sheet on their specifications page.
Paul
it's a 4:3 ratio sensor. The 1.3x crop has nothing to do with aspect ratios.
the only 3:2 ratio sensors around right now are the aptus II 10 and the leica s2.
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Synn, I have to differ, but you can't argue with facts, just look at the attached picture. It appears as more of a 2:3 ratio than the larger two.
Paul
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Synn, I have to differ, but you can't argue with facts, just look at the attached picture. It appears as more of a 2:3 ratio than the larger two.
Paul
44:33 :: 4:3
am I missing something,here?
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Must be my eyes too early in the am for me.
Paul
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The diagram tricks the eye to see the format wider than it is. Sensor size is just the size the mm says, 44x33mm, which is 4:3 format. Since the square format was dropped digital backs have only been in 4:3 format (afaik), but we have the Leica S2 as the odd one out at 3:2 (45x30mm).
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But this new 51MP 44x33mm sensor is from Sony, not Dalsa, and it is not yet clear to me whether Sony has matched this improved micro-lens vignetting performance.
I could bet $100 that Sony has not (no interest), and I actually doubt that Dalsa's reason for making wide angle performance in the 6um tech was driven by Phase One, but rather other applications/customers.
Phase One releases this new IQ250 which they've tested "extensively", marketing campaign is rolled out and it's ready for sale on Monday. Still there are no answers of how it works on tech cams. That says a lot of how much Phase One cares about technical camera performance, ie almost nothing (and Hasselblad are probably even worse, although they have become a little bit better since the H3D time). I would think that the forum here and also at getdpi has a much higher tech cam penetration than the overall MF user population though so not caring may be perfectly ok from a business perspective.
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Hi,
I have the impression that there is a significant market for technical cameras, like 15% of MFD sales and I also guess that quite a few MFD buyers migrate from MF DSLRs to technical cameras.
On the other hand, I also guess that it is reasonable that the technical camera market moves to lenses designed for digital, that is lenses with a low beam angle and high performance.
My impression is that Hasselblad may prioritise volume over price. I would expect lower price systems coming from Hasselblad compared to Phase. I also feel that Hasselblad is thinking out of the box, I am much impressed by the HTS for instance.
Best regards
Erik
I could bet $100 that Sony has not (no interest), and I actually doubt that Dalsa's reason for making wide angle performance in the 6um tech was driven by Phase One, but rather other applications/customers.
Phase One releases this new IQ250 which they've tested "extensively", marketing campaign is rolled out and it's ready for sale on Monday. Still there are no answers of how it works on tech cams. That says a lot of how much Phase One cares about technical camera performance, ie almost nothing (and Hasselblad are probably even worse, although they have become a little bit better since the H3D time). I would think that the forum here and also at getdpi has a much higher tech cam penetration than the overall MF user population though so not caring may be perfectly ok from a business perspective.
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Phase One releases this new IQ250 which they've tested "extensively", marketing campaign is rolled out and it's ready for sale on Monday. Still there are no answers of how it works on tech cams. That says a lot of how much Phase One cares about technical camera performance, ie almost nothing (and Hasselblad are probably even worse, although they have become a little bit better since the H3D time). I would think that the forum here and also at getdpi has a much higher tech cam penetration than the overall MF user population though so not caring may be perfectly ok from a business perspective.
That would be unfortunate because, frankly speaking, using a back on a view camera is IMHO the only scenario where there is compelling value compared to high end DSLRs.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I could bet $100 that Sony has not (no interest), and I actually doubt that Dalsa's reason for making wide angle performance in the 6um tech was driven by Phase One, but rather other applications/customers.
Phase One releases this new IQ250 which they've tested "extensively", marketing campaign is rolled out and it's ready for sale on Monday. Still there are no answers of how it works on tech cams. That says a lot of how much Phase One cares about technical camera performance, ie almost nothing (and Hasselblad are probably even worse, although they have become a little bit better since the H3D time). I would think that the forum here and also at getdpi has a much higher tech cam penetration than the overall MF user population though so not caring may be perfectly ok from a business perspective.
I don't agree with your statement. It may say a lot about how well (or not) Phase One might present limitations to their products - no argument from me there. And I suppose without more information you're left to those conclusions. However, it is obviously an important segment to them, and there certainly was internal debate over the performance of the IQ250 with regard to technical cameras. They are aware it is limited compared to the other IQ models.
Their marketing position for the IQ250 likely does not address technical cameras because their is not a good story there, however how bad the story is remains to be seen. It is not a product that is targeting technical camera users. That doesn't mean it can't be used with technical cameras (and Capture Integration will be doing our own testing this coming week). I believe they see this as a product that a high end portrait or wedding shooter might more easily employ than an IQ product. And to that end, IQ products remain in the lineup as excellent solutions for technical cameras. This is not the first product that Phase One has release that may not be optimized for technical camera use (P30/30+, etc).
And I wouldn't count out further development of this technology that may produce more compatibility with technical cameras in the future.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Must be my eyes too early in the am for me.
Paul
Happens to the best of us. I coffee can't function without in the morning. ;D
Cheers.
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I could bet $100 that Sony has not (no interest), and I actually doubt that Dalsa's reason for making wide angle performance in the 6um tech was driven by Phase One, but rather other applications/customers.
Phase One releases this new IQ250 which they've tested "extensively", marketing campaign is rolled out and it's ready for sale on Monday. Still there are no answers of how it works on tech cams. That says a lot of how much Phase One cares about technical camera performance, ie almost nothing (and Hasselblad are probably even worse, although they have become a little bit better since the H3D time). I would think that the forum here and also at getdpi has a much higher tech cam penetration than the overall MF user population though so not caring may be perfectly ok from a business perspective.
I also don't agree with this. I think we have photographers have become spoiled by the large amount of features packed into some smaller sensored cameras. I know that I said almost the exact opposite in my article (writing to the affect of "we deserve as much functionality as possible for the price"). But I will also remind you that it was not that long ago that there were all sorts of specialized cameras out there for film photography including all sorts of formats 6x7 6x9 6x8 6x17 6x12 and all of these came in many forms, and thats not to mention the multitude of large format cameras, they all served specific functions and did different things, namely they were specialized. Frankly, I believe that this should be done much more with digital photography then it has been since most digital cameras try and do as much as humanly possible within the physical, financial and technological constraints placed on them.
I see no problem with PhaseOne producing CCD sensored products for use with technical cameras (and SLR bodies) and then also producing CMOS. Heck, PhaseOne produces the IQ260 (a Long Exposure back), the IQ280 a megapixel monster, the IQ260 Achromatic a black and white back, and also offers the option of full spectrum and IR backs. I don't see why its so contentious for them to release a CMOS back which aims to provide high ISO performance for photographers (like myself) who want to be able to versatile use our cameras in challenging lighting situations. They are each tools with different goals, and I don't believe PhaseOne has said that all new backs they produce will be CMOS, I don't believe that this is currently possible based on the technology available in the world.
However, that being said we haven't even gotten our hands on the camera yet so lets wait and see whats what before we make too many conclusions. But my point stands, there are different tools for different applications and PhaseOne offering a diverse range of backs which may have some limitations and are not all encompassing can only be a good thing since it means specialized products for specific applications.
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Brian,
No issues with specialized tools, but it is precisely when using movements on technical cameras that live view is most useful...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Brian,
No issues with specializes tools, but it is precisely when using movements on technical cameras that live view is most useful...
Cheers,
Bernard
Completely agree. I mention that in my article that it is disappointing because thats where 20-24 fps live view could be great. But lets see, it might not be 100% with all tech cam lenses, but it could be still be usable to a lesser extent, lets see!
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Completely agree. I mention that in my article that it is disappointing because thats where 20-24 fps live view could be great. But lets see, it might not be 100% with all tech cam lenses, but it could be still be usable to a lesser extent, lets see!
Yes, let's see.
Cheers,
Bernard