Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ErikKaffehr on December 12, 2013, 04:57:01 pm
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Hi,
I have posted four jpegs with four different profiles. It shows myself shot by a friend with my P45+.
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/FakeProfiles/
Parameters: Hazy sunlight, early afternoon
WB on window frame to the left (painted white)
Profiles:
LR5.3RC (color checker passport, Adobe DNG Profile editor and QPcard, The DNG profile editor file is slightly tuned)
Capture One (Built in Outdoor daylight)
Honestly interested in everyones opinion.
Best regards
Erik
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My opinion is that your friend forgot to take the lens cap off ;) ;D
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Thanks Slobodan,
It wasn't Pierre who left the lens cap on but me who forget to paste the link! Fixed
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/FakeProfiles/
Best regards
Erik
My opinion is that your friend forgot to take the lens cap off ;) ;D
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My opinion is that your friend forgot to take the lens cap off ;) ;D
That's because they were too preoccupied buying lunch for camera makers.
BC
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Hi,
Not really, my friend is a long time Hasselblad owner. Actully he built his Hasselblad himself when he worked at the factory, but his "blad" is just collecting dust in the digital age. He was visiting me for a couple of hours in Sweden and we looked at a small exhibition I happened to have at a small place deep into the forrest.
I am really interested on the issue of profiles as I don't shoot folks as a rule. So skin for me is more like this:
(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/US-NorthEast-National-Parks/i-sxtWHpZ/0/XL/20080914-DSC05803-XL.jpg)
or this
(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/US-NorthEast-National-Parks/i-rgCqSkB/0/XL/20080920-DSC00226-XL.jpg)
or this
(http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/US-NorthEast-National-Parks/i-cGpVJR5/0/XL/20091016-DSC01325-XL.jpg)
Best regards
Erik
Just realised, it is not skin it is fur;-)
That's because they were too preoccupied buying lunch for camera makers.
BC
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could you post a link to the raw, please?
Edmund
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Edmund,
Here it comes: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/FakeProfiles/20130727-CF043589.iiq
Erik
could you post a link to the raw, please?
Edmund
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Edmund,
Here it comes: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/FakeProfiles/20130727-CF043589.iiq
Erik
Erik,
Thank you!
Edmund
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Well here we go.
This is exactly the typical tech preocupation that has not an answer.
Wich skin tone is best? is like saying wich tone of blue is best...
Best, for what?
What do you want to express? what do you want to say? What's the story.
What's the desired psycho effect? what's the emotion?
The question Erik ask has no meaning by itself. It misses the intention
If you do not know the "for what", there is absolutly no chance to answer.
The 4 pics are all potentialy good or bad
So...people will opinate and bring their own corrected versions of the pic from the raw,
and the question will not be answered cause none of will be better or worse if there is not a direction to work to...
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attempt = http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/17/fh7n.jpg
(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/17/fh7n.jpg)
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A young Dominican called Erik and a weathered Jesuit called Fred were together crossing St Peter's Square in front of the Bernini colonnade, heading to the Basilica.
And Erik turned to Fred and asked most respectfully:
-E: May I ask you about something I heard about Jesuits, Father
-F: What would that be, my son?
-E: Is it true that a Jesuit always answers a question with a question?
-F: And where did you hear this, my son?
Edmund
Well here we go.
This is exactly the typical tech preocupation that has not an answer.
Wich skin tone is best? is like saying wich tone of blue is best...
Best, for what?
What do you want to express? what do you want to say? What's the story.
What's the desired psycho effect?
The question Erik ask has no meaning by itself. It misses the intention
If you do not know the "for what", there is absolutly no chance to answer.
The 4 pics are all potentialy good or bad
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Well here we go.
This is exactly the typical tech preocupation that has not an answer.
Wich skin tone is best? is like saying wich tone of blue is best...
Best, for what?
What do you want to express? what do you want to say? What's the story.
What's the desired psycho effect? what's the emotion?
The question Erik ask has no meaning by itself. It misses the intention
If you do not know the "for what", there is absolutly no chance to answer.
The 4 pics are all potentialy good or bad
So...people will opinate and bring their own corrected versions of the pic from the raw,
and the question will not be answered cause none of will be better or worse if there is not a direction to work to...
+1
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+1
-100500... trying to find out the answers to the questions that seemingly don't have 'em is good.
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-100500... trying to find out the answers to the questions that seemingly don't have 'em is good.
You like that sport? Ok, here is another one for the long winter nights
wich star in the milky way is best?
or
wich top model is best?
best luck
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You like that sport?
when it is interesting for me, yes... and when it's not - I do not rain on somebody's else parade... so I am not going to question people in a proper forum discussing the stars in Milky Way, am I ?
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when it is interesting for me, yes... and when it's not - I do not rain on somebody's else parade... so I am not going to question people in a proper forum discussing the stars in Milky Way, am I ?
On a serious note,
All "Profiles" are starting points. You tweak them based on a person's ethnicity, the mood of the shot and the theme and so on.
You can't really pick a singular "Best" skintone profile; at least from the perspective of a fine art portrait shooter.
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On a serious note,
All "Profiles" are starting points. You tweak them based on a person's ethnicity, the mood of the shot and the theme and so on.
as you understand not all profiles are created equal, more so when you are talking about Adobe vs C1 and "so on"
You can't really pick a singular "Best" skintone profile; at least from the perspective of a fine art portrait shooter.
the task at hand is more simple - help the topicstarter to find something that he likes (or may be help him to get rid of doubts in his original preferences) and that might as well be achieved by arguing about tastes :P ... you don't like it ? move on...
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I prefer the Capture One, linear, daylight profile by far of all the ones you posted. It seems to be the best for color grading no question.
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the task at hand is more simple - help the topicstarter to find something that he likes (or may be help him to get rid of doubts in his original preferences)
How can one help someone else find something that is clearly subjective?
Google can probably help you find the "Sharpest" lens ever, but it's useless at finding the "Best rendering" one. Same difference.
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How can one help someone else find something that is clearly subjective?
placebo works sometimes when the issue is in somebody's mind
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I prefer the Capture One, linear, daylight profile by far of all the ones you posted. It seems to be the best for color grading no question.
indeed, that's why my subjective "the best star in MilkyWay" opinion is - Adobe profiles shall be somewhat gutted before using (that included removing LookTable and replacing ToneCurve with linear one - unfortunately in OEM rendering emulation profiles that LookTable does now a big chunk of the color transform work and ToneCurve it seems works like an exposure correction, so that's more about Adobe Standard profiles)...
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Here is one way to answer your question Erik:
1. Make four life-size prints
2. Cut each one in half vertically
3. Make four new photographs, this time covering one half of your face with a print
4. See which one is closest* to your skin tone
Voilá!
* EDIT: Which does not necessarily means "the best." Maybe you look better with a bit of a tan added? ;)
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LR5.3 is the nicest to me-the warmest. The others are either too yellow or too light.
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LR5.3 is the nicest to me-the warmest. The others are either too yellow or too light.
and your avatar says so !
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Hi Slobodan,
A bit sarcastic today? :-)
Anyway your suggestion won't work, because it's winter now, and skin gets brighter.
There is another way, you measure skin tone with a spectrometer. Than you convert your image Lab and replace the a and b channels with your measured values. I tested this technique on a portrait posted by Hulyss Bowman, taking spectrum from my skin. That proved a remarkably good match.
Best regards
Erik
Here is one way to answer your question Erik:
1. Make four life-size prints
2. Cut each one in half vertically
3. Make four new photographs, this time covering one half of your face with a print
4. See which one is closest* to your skin tone
Voilá!
* EDIT: Which does not necessarily means "the best." Maybe you look better with a bit of a tan added? ;)
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Ken,
Thanks a lot for a real answer.
Best regards
Erik
I prefer the Capture One, linear, daylight profile by far of all the ones you posted. It seems to be the best for color grading no question.
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Hi Alan,
Thanks for your observation. That one is with Colour Checker Passport. Three are processed in LR5.3 with only "profile" changing C1 is a bit different because I cannot exactly match exposure.
I know very little about skin tones, that is the reason I asked. I am struggling a bit with colour on the P45+. I am not happy with the Adobe Standard Profile. I have generated a few profiles based on the standard Color Checker but was not really happy. A couple of days ago I got a QPcard, which has a different set of patches, possibly better matching skin tones.
Your input is really appreciated.
Best regards
Erik
LR5.3 is the nicest to me-the warmest. The others are either too yellow or too light.
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Hi Slobodan,
A bit sarcastic today? :-)
No, for a change ;) I was actually serious.
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There is another way, you measure skin tone with a spectrometer.
actually just take somebody good photo and steal skin tone from it :D ... it's not copyrighted, is it ?
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I am not happy with the Adobe Standard Profile. I have generated a few profiles based on the standard Color Checker but was not really happy. A couple of days ago I got a QPcard, which has a different set of patches, possibly better matching skin tones.
QPCard allegedly creates a totally new profile from scratch every time, while Adobe DNG PE is always modifying some base profile... so GIGO.
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Hi,
The way I make my pictures I do very little on color. Just pick white balance. Than I do a lot of stuff with the 'L-channel', but do little on the 'ab' stuff. Naturally I change saturation, vibrance and so on. With the way I work the profile is important.
On Sony Alpha I was quite satisfied with Adobe Standard rendition. But I found it lacking on the P45+. So I started of by building my own profile.
The left image here is with Adobe Standard Profile and the right one created by DNGProfileEditor.
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/Screenshots/P45+_AdobeSTD_vs_DNGProfiler_small.png)
Best regards
Erik
No, for a change ;) I was actually serious.
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actually just take somebody good photo and steal skin tone from it :D ... it's not copyrighted, is it ?
I have no idea what a spectrometer costs, but whatever it is, I'd invest that in some lighting gear.
Much more useful for actually shooting portraits.
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Hi,
Color Munky Photo, about 500 $US. Calibrates you printer and screen. It is also a 10 nm band spectrometer. You really need a spectro for making paper profiles.
Here in Sweden if you buy paint for a house, they ask you to take a sample with you, measure it with a spectrometer and mix a matching colour.
Best regards
Erik
I have no idea what a spectrometer costs, but whatever it is, I'd invest that in some lighting gear.
Much more useful for actually shooting portraits.
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I have no idea what a spectrometer costs, but whatever it is, I'd invest that in some lighting gear.
Much more useful for actually shooting portraits.
Most older males have sub-par color vision, if only because young females have better than average color vision . It's kind of annoying for photographers because their customers are often women with superb color vision. Luckily of course, every artist in this forum is an exception to this rule :)
Edmund
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Hi,
Color Munky Photo, about 500 $US. Calibrates you printer and screen. It is also a 10 nm band spectrometer. You really need a spectro for making paper profiles.
Here in Sweden if you buy paint for a house, they ask you to take a sample with you, measure it with a spectrometer and mix a matching colour.
Best regards
Erik
http://www.sandeepmurali.com/p234558723/h73f3c959#h73f3c959
Godox Wistro. Around the same price. A powerful and compact strobe. Not mine (I use a Quadra), but borrowed from a friend to see how it is. Quite surprised by the output.
As for the skintones, Shot the SpyderCheckr under the same lighting conditions, brought it into C1 did an "Auto adjust", saved as a user preset.
Applied it to this image with the neutral film curve, made a few curve adjustments. That's about it.
Quite happy with the skintone myself. What do you reckon?
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http://www.sandeepmurali.com/p234558723/h73f3c959#h73f3c959
Godox Wistro. Around the same price. A powerful and compact strobe. Not mine (I use a Quadra), but borrowed from a friend to see how it is. Quite surprised by the output.
As for the skintones, Shot the SpyderCheckr under the same lighting conditions, brought it into C1 did an "Auto adjust", saved as a user preset.
Applied it to this image with the neutral film curve, made a few curve adjustments. That's about it.
Quite happy with the skintone myself. What do you reckon?
I don't reckon much. Usually Asian, at least Chinese and Japanese women prefer to be paler in images, which is why a lot of skin whitening agents and treatments are sold in Asia. So, frankly I have no idea - I would try to avoid cheekbone and forehead burnout as far as possible - many cameras will burnout whatever you do so makeup is key - and then throw the image to a specialist retoucher to fix color as culturally appropriate.
Edmund
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I don't reckon much. Usually Asian, at least Chinese and Japanese women prefer to be paler in images, which is why a lot of skin whitening agents and treatments are sold in Asia.
Edmund
Actually living in Asia and having delivered a print of that image to the subject in question to her complete delight, I find your theoretical opinions amusing, as always.
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Actually living in Asia and having delivered a print of that image to the subject in question to her complete delight, I find your theoretical opinions amusing, as always.
Well, I'm entitled to my false opinions - you are entitled to your photographic technique :)
That is one of the reasons why color consultants tend to be local.
Edmund
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Hi,
I like the skin tone in your photograph. But I know little about skin tone, otherwise I would have not posted this question.
Best regards
Erik
http://www.sandeepmurali.com/p234558723/h73f3c959#h73f3c959
Godox Wistro. Around the same price. A powerful and compact strobe. Not mine (I use a Quadra), but borrowed from a friend to see how it is. Quite surprised by the output.
As for the skintones, Shot the SpyderCheckr under the same lighting conditions, brought it into C1 did an "Auto adjust", saved as a user preset.
Applied it to this image with the neutral film curve, made a few curve adjustments. That's about it.
Quite happy with the skintone myself. What do you reckon?
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Hi,
I like the skin tone in your photograph. But I know little about skin tone, otherwise I would have not posted this question.
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
I'll look at your file when I wake up. I want to understand what is happening to the shirt before even thinking about the skin tone - the shirt appears posterised on my laptop for some of the renderings and I want to look at the Raw itself. But frankly - on a given job synn's approach is best in a way - whatever feels nice and your customer likes is ok. It's different when you're selling camera profiles as I used to do, and you need to create something that is both "accurate" and has a nice "look" under a bunch of lighting conditions.
Edmund
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Hi,
That shirt is very bright red.
I am very much an amateur, to the extent I almost refuse to sell my stuff. Reason is that I have a profession paying for my hobby.
Regarding the shirt here you have measured color (D50): http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/FakeProfiles/ColorMunki_spectrum.tif
And a text file is here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/FakeProfiles/ColorMunki_spectrum.txt
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
I'll look at your file when I wake up. I want to understand what is happening to the shirt before even thinking about the skin tone - the shirt appears posterised on my laptop for some of the renderings and I want to look at the Raw itself. But frankly - on a given job synn's approach is best in a way - whatever feels nice and your customer likes is ok. It's different when you're selling camera profiles as I used to do, and you need to create something that is both "accurate" and has a nice "look" under a bunch of lighting conditions.
Edmund
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Hi,
I like the skin tone in your photograph. But I know little about skin tone, otherwise I would have not posted this question.
Best regards
Erik
I can appreciate the honesty, Erik :)
In my very personal and very subjective opinion, I don't think ACR/ LR can deliver good skin tones at all, no matter how much one tweaks them. That goes for all races. Caucasian skin in particular looks too "muddy red", for some reason.
C1 on the other hand, has much more subtle gradations which looks much nicer. The default rendering is nothing special, at least for the D800/ D7100 files I have fed into it, but after you take a calibration shot of the test chart and do "Auto adjustments", you have a very good starting point from which you can work forward.
I have only used the Spydercheckr so far, but I would imagine that it would work just as nicely with any color passport with enough color swatches.
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Yes my avatar is a little red. I;'ve been wanting to correct it for years. As far as the OP question, sometimes you just go with your own feelings. Color checkers aren't human. Trust your own eyes. If it looks good to you, then it will look good to others.
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I have no idea what a spectrometer costs, but whatever it is, I'd invest that in some lighting gear.
Much more useful for actually shooting portraits.
we are talking about postprocessing of shots that were done already - nobody says anything against lights and gels
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Actually living in Asia and having delivered a print of that image to the subject in question to her complete delight, I find your theoretical opinions amusing, as always.
then you shall see how Japan-originated raw converter SilkyPix does the skin tones ;) for the target audience
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then you shall see how Japan-originated raw converter SilkyPix does the skin tones ;) for the target audience
Having dated a Japanese woman for 2 years, I don't disagree. ;D
I prefer to do such fine correction to skin, if needed in PS and plug-ins such as Portraiture, though. Raw converters have their limitations, IMO.
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I have only used the Spydercheckr so far, but I would imagine that it would work just as nicely with any color passport with enough color swatches.
"Spydercheckr" OEM software does not build camera profiles for ACR/LR, it builds presets... not exactly the best approach...
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"Spydercheckr" OEM software does not build camera profiles for ACR/LR, it builds presets... not exactly the best approach...
As I clearly mentioned in my post, I am not using their software. Rather, I take a test shot of the chart, import into C1 and do an auto adjust.
It may sound "Too simple" or "Unscientific" or what have you, but it works.
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Hi,
One of the nice thing is that if a good profile is found, it can improve all existing images shot with that device.
As I said I am not a professional photographer, I have an engineering profession in a different area paying for my hobby. But it is my understanding that correctness of colour can be quite important in many professional areas. Companies are said to be quite concerned with correct rendition of their logotype colors, for instance.
Best regards
Erik
we are talking about postprocessing of shots that were done already - nobody says anything against lights and gels
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It is probably foolish of me to risk an opinion considering how the discussion has developed, but this is what I see:
LR 5.3RC Color Checker Passport: almost right, maybe a bit too dark.
Adobe DNG Editor with some hands on tuning: too yellow. Color of the shirt visibly blocked.
QPCard: IMO the best, maybe a bit too light and a very tiny bit too much magenta.
Capture One, linear, daylight outdoor: too green and not enough contrast.
I find puzzling that in all 4 pictures the color of the shirt looks oversaturated.
Standard disclaimers apply. I should probably calibrate my screen more often. I don't know how you look in real life. You may have more success with better light and a younger model, preferably female and scantily clad.
And I agree that shooting portraits with a calibration chart is a very silly thing to do. People don't want their skin color to look true, they want their portraits to look better than life.
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Erik, some random observations and comments, none are scientific, all are from experience:
The image is mildly under exposed, I'd say 1.5 stops (for the face). Not ideal for generating profiles and slightly harder than normal to find the correct WB
There is no grey card or a colour chart in the image, so creating a profile based on this image is a hit and miss, most likely a miss...
However, I suggest the following: Open it in Capture One (leaving it with the default flash profile), set WB to 4800K and -4.0 (tint), push the exposure up 2/3rds of a stop and set saturation to +10.
At least for me this seems to give a "nice" skin tone and an overall natural look especially to the Red shirt. IMO a natural, make-up-less European skin tone will have certain amounts of Red, Yellow, Brown, Bleu Green in it.
BR
Yair
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Most older males have sub-par color vision, if only because young females have better than average color vision . It's kind of annoying for photographers because their customers are often women with superb color vision. Luckily of course, every artist in this forum is an exception to this rule :)
Edmund
Imagine when they are faced by ex-models-turned-photographer!
Suicide is common amongst photographers - regardless of skin-tone.
Fred is right.
It also depends on the scene which you are presenting: tanned looks better on beach than in bedroom, where slight flush is far more suggestive (flattering and pleasing, too) than tan, which might indicate browned off, enough to make crestfallen the stoutest male heart.
Rob C
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Hi Jerome,
I am acting talent...
Thanks for your comments. Interesting to hear that you liked the QPcard best. I bought it because I felt it may have more tiles in subtler colors than the standard SG card.
Best regards
Erik
It is probably foolish of me to risk an opinion considering how the discussion has developed, but this is what I see:
LR 5.3RC Color Checker Passport: almost right, maybe a bit too dark.
Adobe DNG Editor with some hands on tuning: too yellow. Color of the shirt visibly blocked.
QPCard: IMO the best, maybe a bit too light and a very tiny bit too much magenta.
Capture One, linear, daylight outdoor: too green and not enough contrast.
I find puzzling that in all 4 pictures the color of the shirt looks oversaturated.
Standard disclaimers apply. I should probably calibrate my screen more often. I don't know how you look in real life. You may have more success with better light and a younger model, preferably female and scantily clad.
And I agree that shooting portraits with a calibration chart is a very silly thing to do. People don't want their skin color to look true, they want their portraits to look better than life.
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You are turning into circles.
Same talent, Gisele: wich skin tone is best in the pics I linked?
You can not answer to this question without a context and a communication intention.
When I was student in fine arts, the teachers were beating us to death with this Word over and over again: "intention?"
It's not enough saying: "well a skin tone that makes look better tan life", is like saying nothing either
because define better? define life?
You need to have something to say otherwise all options are potentialy valuable.
So you can see that here we have different campaigns that used the same talent.
No skin tone is the same.
They (we, you, I, he, she) have to make choices according to several parameters that could be:
- Brand values and history
- Context, surrounding
- Color combinations
- Emotions (intended)
- Story (intended)
etc...
You can't successfuly work from vague concept. Things have to be defined and be precise
to make choices and orientate the prod to your aims.
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Hand me a paintbrush and I will paint your wall, excuse me model, any color you want :)
Edmund
You are turning into circles.
Same talent, Gisele: wich skin tone is best in the pics I linked?
You can not answer to this question without a context and a communication intention.
When I was student in fine arts, the teachers were beating us to death with this Word over and over again: "intention?"
It's not enough saying: "well a skin tone that makes look better tan life", is like saying nothing either
because define better? define life?
You need to have something to say otherwise all options are potentialy valuable.
So you can see that here we have different campaigns that used the same talent.
No skin tone is the same.
They (we, you, I, he, she) have to make choices according to several parameters that could be:
- Brand values and history
- Context, surrounding
- Color combinations
- Emotions (intended)
- Story (intended)
etc...
You can't successfuly work from vague concept. Things have to be defined and be precise
to make choices and orientate the prod to your aims.
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Hi,
I have posted four jpegs with four different profiles. It shows myself shot by a friend with my P45+.
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/FakeProfiles/
Parameters: Hazy sunlight, early afternoon
WB on window frame to the left (painted white)
Profiles:
LR5.3RC (color checker passport, Adobe DNG Profile editor and QPcard, The DNG profile editor file is slightly tuned)
Capture One (Built in Outdoor daylight)
Honestly interested in everyones opinion.
Best regards
Erik
Top right looks the healthiest skintone. It's clearly oversaturated on the shirt. Bottom right looks the most accurate based on non skin tone parts of the image. There is far more unblown detail in the shirt for example. The skin tone looks slightly grey, least healthy looking. The 2 on the left have extra red in the skin tones. They don't look right.
I would say take your vitamins then use the C1 profile.
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Hi Yair,
Thanks for your suggestions. Just to mention, the profiles I have made from correctly exposed ColorChecker resp. QPCard targets. The idea here is to find out how well those profiles work on skin tones, with which I am not familiar.
I processed the image according to your suggestions, and the results was quite similar to what I got from the QPCard under LR5.3. I also looked at the red shirt. I actually measured the color, it is just outside Adobe RGB. Than I selected an area on the red shirt and filled in with measured 'a' and 'b' values ignoring L. The result was astonishing, the patch could not be seen! So I guess it as good as it can get.
I will add the image to the page tomorrow.
Best regards
Erik
Erik, some random observations and comments, none are scientific, all are from experience:
The image is mildly under exposed, I'd say 1.5 stops (for the face). Not ideal for generating profiles and slightly harder than normal to find the correct WB
There is no grey card or a colour chart in the image, so creating a profile based on this image is a hit and miss, most likely a miss...
However, I suggest the following: Open it in Capture One (leaving it with the default flash profile), set WB to 4800K and -4.0 (tint), push the exposure up 2/3rds of a stop and set saturation to +10.
At least for me this seems to give a "nice" skin tone and an overall natural look especially to the Red shirt. IMO a natural, make-up-less European skin tone will have certain amounts of Red, Yellow, Brown, Bleu Green in it.
BR
Yair
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I had a look at the link on my regular PC. The bottom left looks much better. My laptop has a small gamut relative to sRGB vs this screen which is about ARGB. The C1 looks very bad. C1 has always seemed to have very good color so something is wrong there.
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Hi,
Interesting!
The left one is QPCard software with QPCard target.
A few observations:
- I measured the shirt and it is just outside Adobe RGB, the images are shown in sRGB. So there is a natural clipping.
- The Adobe DNG profile I have pushes reds wide outside Adobe RGB, just inside ProPhoto RGB (which is what I normally use)
- Yair suggested some setting. They match reds on shirt perfectly ( will post it later )
I had 'votes' for all images.
Best regards
Erik
I had a look at the link on my regular PC. The bottom left looks much better. My laptop has a small gamut relative to sRGB vs this screen which is about ARGB. The C1 looks very bad. C1 has always seemed to have very good color so something is wrong there.
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Erik, please PM me your email, I've retrieved one of my old edited profiles for Phase and can email it to you.
Edmund
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Hi,
I looked at some other images. Tried to process a P45+ image in Lightroom with my QPCard generated profile and C1. I came up with the enclosed images, Capture 1 left LR5.3 Right.
LR5 is essentially default, WB on wall left of head.
C1, linear response curve, WB on wall left of head, some adjustments
Best regards
Erik
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A bit late to the discussion, but anyway; I don't find the "which skin tone is best?" question particularly hard to understand, it's clear that what we strive for here is a natural day-to-day look, what you'd like to have out of camera when you've done no particular post-processing except for selecting a portrait profile. Not what you'd like to have after hours of post-processing for a magazine cover. Medium format has quite some reputation for being good at achieving pleasing skin tones "out of the box".
A pleasing natural skin tone in this case is probably a bit warmer than "accurate", and what would seem most natural to me on my uncalibrated screen I'm sitting at now is something inbetween the top left (LR5.3 color checker) and bottom right (capture one). As I've noted in some other threads I don't think you should use linear curve in capture one for best performance of their ICC profiles.
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A bit late to the discussion, but anyway; I don't find the "which skin tone is best?" question particularly hard to understand, it's clear that what we strive for here is a natural day-to-day look, what you'd like to have out of camera when you've done no particular post-processing except for selecting a portrait profile. Not what you'd like to have after hours of post-processing for a magazine cover. Medium format has quite some reputation for being good at achieving pleasing skin tones "out of the box".
A pleasing natural skin tone in this case is probably a bit warmer than "accurate", and what would seem most natural to me on my uncalibrated screen I'm sitting at now is something inbetween the top left (LR5.3 color checker) and bottom right (capture one).
Hi,
I agree with those observations.
As I've noted in some other threads I don't think you should use linear curve in capture one for best performance of their ICC profiles.
I'm not convinced as to the magnitude of the effect on color, yet. The Linear versus Film curve response is IMHO (or it should be) a tone curve correction that is more than a post processing curves adjustment. It should be a Luminance based tone curve adjustment that leaves color (shift and saturation) mostly unaffected. A great example of how it should work is the Intellicolor technology (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_YAavRntPo) from Topaz Labs.
I'll do some testing myself with Capture One, because Linear response reduces clipping of correctly exposed files and maintains highlight contrast instead of compressing it, and that's why I use it almost exclusively. I'd appreciate it if you have some examples you can share that show the magnitude of the effects on color (but I'll do my own testing as well, so it's not that I'm lazy).
Cheers,
Bart
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It is subjectivic but you asked what I like and I can answer that..
The bottom left (opcard) seems the most pleasing to me. The two on the right.. the reds are over saturated and the skin tons greyish...
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I'm not convinced as to the magnitude of the effect on color, yet. The Linear versus Film curve response is IMHO (or it should be) a tone curve correction that is more than a post processing curves adjustment. It should be a Luminance based tone curve adjustment that leaves color (shift and saturation) mostly unaffected. A great example of how it should work is the Intellicolor technology (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_YAavRntPo) from Topaz Labs.
I'll do some testing myself with Capture One, because Linear response reduces clipping of correctly exposed files and maintains highlight contrast instead of compressing it, and that's why I use it almost exclusively. I'd appreciate it if you have some examples you can share that show the magnitude of the effects on color (but I'll do my own testing as well, so it's not that I'm lazy).
Actually I think it's a plain RGB curve in Capture One. But I'd be glad to be corrected on that. The reason I think it's a RGB curve is that the TIFFTAG_TRANSFERFUNCTION when export TIF with embedded camera ICC profile indicates that.
DNG/Lightroom has a special type of curve as defined in the DNG standard, which is supposed to have "film-like" increase of saturation when you increase contrast with it, but it's also prone to color shift. A pure luminance curve I think most users would consider looking too gray and dull, although color stability is good. Most expect color to intensify when contrast is increased.
RawTherapee is a great raw converter experiment with different curves. It has Luminance, RGB, Adobe's film like, and their own "weighted standard" which is my personal favourite, which is quite close to Luminance but not quite.
I don't necessarily think it's wrong with a simple RGB curve with color shift and all, as long as you design your ICC to work on that curve. If you want color stability with total freedom to select curves my guess is that none of the current commercial raw converters are particularly good at that. It has not been a design target for them, the workflow for "accurate" color is to make a custom profile tailored for a specific use case, ie curve and illuminants chosen and exposing correctly.
The reason I got into this issue through working with Lumariver HDR (we now in version 1.1.1 support Adobe's DCPs natively, and I'd like to support Capture One ICCs too to make it more flexible in MFDB workflows) and also contributing to RawTherapee (the upcoming 4.1 release will hopefully have support for Capture One and Leaf ICCs) both applications which find tone curves applied through/with profiles a bit problematic as they're designed to start with linear input.
For the luminance curve to work as you intend the ICC profile must be applied before the curve is applied, but that is certainly not the case in Capture One. As said with Adobe's DCP it is, but then their curve is only marginally more neutral than a plain RGB curve.
I have not made any screenshots, there's some work to do it so I'll see if I get around to make some.
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Hi,
As far as I know, LR uses something called Melissa RGB internally, it is essentially ProPhoto RGB with gamma = 1. I believed until this day that a camera profile would map RGB channels to XYZ or Lab in Melissa RGB. Anyway that is what I feel a camera profile should do. Rendering, that is a different thing.
Best regards
Erik
Actually I think it's a plain RGB curve in Capture One. But I'd be glad to be corrected on that. The reason I think it's a RGB curve is that the TIFFTAG_TRANSFERFUNCTION when export TIF with embedded camera ICC profile indicates that.
DNG/Lightroom has a special type of curve as defined in the DNG standard, which is supposed to have "film-like" increase of saturation when you increase contrast with it, but it's also prone to color shift. A pure luminance curve I think most users would consider looking too gray and dull, although color stability is good. Most expect color to intensify when contrast is increased.
RawTherapee is a great raw converter experiment with different curves. It has Luminance, RGB, Adobe's film like, and their own "weighted standard" which is my personal favourite, which is quite close to Luminance but not quite.
I don't necessarily think it's wrong with a simple RGB curve with color shift and all, as long as you design your ICC to work on that curve. If you want color stability with total freedom to select curves my guess is that none of the current commercial raw converters are particularly good at that. It has not been a design target for them, the workflow for "accurate" color is to make a custom profile tailored for a specific use case, ie curve and illuminants chosen and exposing correctly.
The reason I got into this issue through working with Lumariver HDR (we now in version 1.1.1 support Adobe's DCPs natively, and I'd like to support Capture One ICCs too to make it more flexible in MFDB workflows) and also contributing to RawTherapee (the upcoming 4.1 release will hopefully have support for Capture One and Leaf ICCs) both applications which find tone curves applied through/with profiles a bit problematic as they're designed to start with linear input.
For the luminance curve to work as you intend the ICC profile must be applied before the curve is applied, but that is certainly not the case in Capture One. As said with Adobe's DCP it is, but then their curve is only marginally more neutral than a plain RGB curve.
I have not made any screenshots, there's some work to do it so I'll see if I get around to make some.
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As far as I know, LR uses something called Melissa RGB internally
only to disply histogramm - otherwise it is the same internal workflow as ACR
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Melissa RGB internally, it is essentially ProPhoto RGB with gamma = 1.
it is ProPhoto coordinates + sRGB curve
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A great example of how it should work is the Intellicolor technology (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_YAavRntPo) from Topaz Labs.
Separating colour from luminance seems very logical. There was a scanner software that had a colour wheel for removing film casts. Being able to pick a point on the image, then change hue and saturation with a colour globe, while leaving or separately adjusting luminance would remove the mass of obfuscating sliders. It would probably clean up the code to far fewer bugs as well.
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Separating colour from luminance seems very logical.
so does hue from saturation... ACR now has an option for Lab color samples (if you select output to Lab), may be they will treat us to some HSL/HSB color sample and an additional option to set it by selecting an arbitrary rectangle with color sample tool and displaying some average values within it (like it was finally done w/ WB tool)
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Problem is that color science is not an exact science, as it's about human perception. Lab, or HSV or whatever only approximates separation of hue, saturation and luminance. It's indeed a quite good approximation but it's not perfect. Even if it was, the perception is slightly altered when the curve is changed. Increased contrast in the luminance channel alone most will perceive as increased contrast *and* a reduction in saturation. Thus good pleasing color rendition is a little bit of black magic.
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Increased contrast in the luminance channel alone most will perceive as increased contrast *and* a reduction in saturation. Thus good pleasing color rendition is a little bit of black magic.
Hi,
Well, not entirely black magic. The change of contrast can be followed by a change in saturation to taste, and you're there, as the Intellicolor technology example shows. All it takes is a good separation between chrominance and luminance.
Intellicolor technology is also used in the incredibly powerful Topaz Labs Clarity (http://www.topazlabs.com/clarity/) plugin, also in a separate HSL control with edge-aware masking capability which makes it very useful for skin adjustments. Skin color, regardless of race, tends to have a very narrow common Hue angle.
Cheers,
Bart
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Well, not entirely black magic. The change of contrast can be followed by a change in saturation to taste, and you're there, as the Intellicolor technology example shows. All it takes is a good separation between chrominance and luminance.
Intellicolor technology is also used in the incredibly powerful Topaz Labs Clarity (http://www.topazlabs.com/clarity/) plugin, also in a separate HSL control with edge-aware masking capability which makes it very useful for skin adjustments. Skin color, regardless of race, tends to have a very narrow common Hue angle.
I think I actually shall take a look on that Intellicolor :-). I do think the approach is interesting and is what I intend to evaluate a bit further in my own work. I don't think either Capture One or Adobe has chosen the best paths concerning color rendition. AFAIK Capture One has quite some legacy RGB processing in their pipeline, and Adobe has by design chosen a special type of RGB curve they think is "film-like and pleasing", ie the color shift should be there because it's pleasing. I can't say that their design choices are wrong, just different. I do think it's unfortunate that Adobe has embedded their choice of curve, ie their view of color, in the DNG standard which I think weakens it as a standard. DCP profiles that contains a curve is by the standard required to render it the Adobe way. Fortunately you don't need to embed a curve at all in the DCP.
One reason I'm using RawTherapee is that you there indeed can start with something neutral, separate contrast from hue and saturation and just as you say increase contrast and then apply saturation as you like. However that's a "new" digital way of understanding and working with images, what Capture One and Adobe presents is a more of a "film-like" behavior, which makes sense when people still remember how film cameras worked. I hope though that a raw converter that thinks digital photography all the way gets larger penetration in the future, after-all many photographers today haven't even used a film camera so I don't think we should be stuck with "film simulators" forever.
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I think I actually shall take a look on that Intellicolor :-).
Hi,
By all means, do yourself a favor. The Clarity plugin alone is a must have, the technology behind it opens a lot of possibilities for various unexpected uses as well. For portraits/skin, a little negative "Micro Contrast" will reduce the visibility of pores and small lines, and the effect can be restricted to skin tones with a Color Range mask (apply a few times to catch all skin tones), and that leaves eyebrows and hair alone. A second run with the filter can boost micro contrast for everything else, like eyes.
The HSL sliders for Orange probably have most effect on skin-color and e.g. a little Luminance reduction will give a nice sun tan on Caucasian skin without turning it orange. Adding or reducing a bit of red saturation can simulate/reduce sunburn or other reddish discoloration. Asian skin can be easily lightened (which seems popular) without bleaching crème. Dark/black skin can also be adjusted without causing saturation or color shifts.
I do think the approach is interesting and is what I intend to evaluate a bit further in my own work. I don't think either Capture One or Adobe has chosen the best paths concerning color rendition. AFAIK Capture One has quite some legacy RGB processing in their pipeline, and Adobe has by design chosen a special type of RGB curve they think is "film-like and pleasing", ie the color shift should be there because it's pleasing. I can't say that their design choices are wrong, just different. I do think it's unfortunate that Adobe has embedded their choice of curve, ie their view of color, in the DNG standard which I think weakens it as a standard. DCP profiles that contains a curve is by the standard required to render it the Adobe way. Fortunately you don't need to embed a curve at all in the DCP.
I agree, their approach towards RGB color is somewhat traditional, although Capture one does offer some useful skin-color targeted controls.
One reason I'm using RawTherapee is that you there indeed can start with something neutral, separate contrast from hue and saturation and just as you say increase contrast and then apply saturation as you like. However that's a "new" digital way of understanding and working with images, what Capture One and Adobe presents is a more of a "film-like" behavior, which makes sense when people still remember how film cameras worked. I hope though that a raw converter that thinks digital photography all the way gets larger penetration in the future, after-all many photographers today haven't even used a film camera so I don't think we should be stuck with "film simulators" forever.
Indeed, RawTherapee can handle almost every situation with a bit of practice, but TL Clarity is unique (e.g. color neutral contrast adjustments, great color adjustments, and powerful intelligent masking), and a huge timesaver.
Cheers,
Bart
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I find this thread really important - and not too subjective for a broad discussion at all. Sure, you might push the skin tone to marsian-green, if it helps with your "concept", but what happens with the rest of the image? (Imagine somebody wants to sell the incredibly red t-shirt and the beautiful green model.) So consistency and something like "realistic" colour in the first place is pretty important from my point of view.
For me it’s pretty hard to chose from the four examples a) because I feel they’re too small, and b) because I know neither the guy nor his shirt nor anything else in the frame. But I would say that none of the renderings is too unrealistic in respect to the model’s skin.
The shirt is a different case. Maybe one can’t say much due to its color outside of the sRGB-file’s gamut, but just for the fun of it I opened the file with RPP, did auto-exposure and read the WB from a small area of the white window. What I got was a much more yellow shirt which I can actually imagine being sold at a retailer, whereas the shirt on the OP’s renderings does not really look à la mode with its strange blue tint. Did he really buy such a shirt? :-)
Maybe the OP can help to unravel this mystery …
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if that's not a fashion shooting, but rather a casual portraiture then who cares about the precise exactness of the shirt color... skin tone that OP will be pleased with is way more important, even at the expense of the shirt, is it not ?
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Hi,
The color of the shirt is slightly outside Adpbe RGB, so you need Prophoto RGB to show it exactly. Lab coordinates under D50 illuminant are: 42,69,39
Regarding the guy I cannot give data at the time the picture was taken, but right now it is about: Lab 56, 18,14.
Both measured by ColorMunki Photo and calculated by PatchTool from spectral data.
Shooting conditions were hazy Swedish midday sun early july, drinking coffe.
Best regards
Erik
I find this thread really important - and not too subjective for a broad discussion at all. Sure, you might push the skin tone to marsian-green, if it helps with your "concept", but what happens with the rest of the image? (Imagine somebody wants to sell the incredibly red t-shirt and the beautiful green model.) So consistency and something like "realistic" colour in the first place is pretty important from my point of view.
For me it’s pretty hard to chose from the four examples a) because I feel they’re too small, and b) because I know neither the guy nor his shirt nor anything else in the frame. But I would say that none of the renderings is too unrealistic in respect to the model’s skin.
The shirt is a different case. Maybe one can’t say much due to its color outside of the sRGB-file’s gamut, but just for the fun of it I opened the file with RPP, did auto-exposure and read the WB from a small area of the white window. What I got was a much more yellow shirt which I can actually imagine being sold at a retailer, whereas the shirt on the OP’s renderings does not really look à la mode with its strange blue tint. Did he really buy such a shirt? :-)
Maybe the OP can help to unravel this mystery …
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To my eyes none of the versions showed in the first post are satisfying.
The first 3 versions show clipped colors (crushed colors and missing differentiation in the shirt). They also look too contrasty and a bit artificial.
The C1 processing doesn't look that defective, however, it looks a bit lifeless.
Here's my quick and dirty version (processed on my laptop… not with my primary display).
To me, this looks healthy. Took me 3 or 4 minutes. From here on you can further tune gradation/contrast (saturation or whatever you want…).
Basics:
Input profile: P45+ Outdoor Daylight
Curve: Film Extra Shadow
WB: 5000K / -1,8
Exposure: +1
Brightness: +6
Saturation: +10
2 Edits in the Color Editor: one for the shirt, one for skin tone (see attachments). I think you can't completely separate the shirt from red tones also contained in the skin tones so you have to find a compromise.
You can also try the "Portait Neutral"" Input Profile as a starting point ...
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Hi,
The images I posted were not processed at all, just applied colour profiles and adjusted exposure to match brightness. I perhaps did not make that clear. On some the shirt is clearly oversaturated. The red is a bit outside Adobe RGB (measured on the shirt).
Thanks for suggestions on processing. Good advice as usual!
Best regards
Erik
To my eyes none of the versions showed in the first post are satisfying.
The first 3 versions show clipped colors (crushed colors and missing differentiation in the shirt). They also look too contrasty and a bit artificial.
The C1 processing doesn't look that defective, however, it looks a bit lifeless.
Here's my quick and dirty version (processed on my laptop… not with my primary display).
To me, this looks healthy. Took me 3 or 4 minutes. From here on you can further tune gradation/contrast (saturation or whatever you want…).
Basics:
Input profile: P45+ Outdoor Daylight
Curve: Film Extra Shadow
WB: 5000K / -1,8
Exposure: +1
Brightness: +6
Saturation: +10
2 Edits in the Color Editor: one for the shirt, one for skin tone (see attachments). I think you can't separate the shirt from red tones also contained in the skin tones so you have to find a compromise.
You can also try the "Portait Neutral"" Input Profile as a starting point ...
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The images I posted were not processed at all, just applied colour profiles and adjusted exposure to match brightness.
I see. In this case it's pretty clear that C1 provides the best starting point as it doesn't overemphasize certain colours. As I said the C1-image looks a bit lifeless by default... but it's balanced.
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Hi,
Yes and no, I'm interested in the usability of the profiles. What I have seen, colours are generally over saturated, but that may be handled by reducing saturation. I sometimes reduce saturation and increase vibrance. I would say the clipped reds are problematic but it can be dealt with some work.
Best regards
Erik
if that's not a fashion shooting, but rather a casual portraiture then who cares about the precise exactness of the shirt color... skin tone that OP will be pleased with is way more important, even at the expense of the shirt, is it not ?
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FWIW, Here's a quick 'n dirty job in C1, done to taste. I haven't seen you in person, nor is there a grey card/ color checker in th eshot, so I worked with what looks right to my eye.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/11442332055_1beb9ce002_b.jpg)
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Hi,
This is what I came up with, using eye and adjusting red to fit barely within Adobe RGB (real colour is just outside).
I also added two patches (within grey frames). One is measured colour on shirt, the other is from my forehead. I replaced just the "a" and "b" channels in Lab mode, so grayscale is kept.
Best regards
Erik
FWIW, Here's a quick 'n dirty job in C1, done to taste. I haven't seen you in person, nor is there a grey card/ color checker in th eshot, so I worked with what looks right to my eye.
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I replaced just the "a" and "b" channels in Lab mode, so grayscale is kept.
Replaced with what?
I think the way you've processed your file, your skin looks a bit too yellowish and the shirt looks like an unnatural shade of red and a tad too bright. It may be scientifically accurate, but it certainly doesn't "Look" right.
The way I processed mine was a guesstimation of what the skintone of someone your ethnicity and geographical location might sport.
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Hi,
Measured a and b values of my forehead skin and on the red shirt.
The skin color is obviously different between winter and summer but I would expect the change be mostly in the L-channel.
L is luminousity and ab is color in Lab system.
Best regards
Erik
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Erik, I know what the components in Lab are.
The point was, if you want to get serious about portraiture and skintones, it's best to shoot with a grey card and/or color chart and most importantly, develop an eye for this style of photography.
I know quite a few very serious and very famous portrait artists and none of them would be spending time doing any of this measuring stuff. This is one of those instances where the "Art" part needs a wee bit more emphasis than the "Science" part.
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Hi,
Measured a and b values of my forehead skin and on the red shirt.
out of curiosity what is a, b for your skin that you measured ?
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Hi,
I am not seriousy in the portrait business. This is actually the one of the two portrait images I have with the P45+.
The reason I posted the question is mainly that I try to find a profile that works well enough, and I am not familiar with skin tones.
I can measure skin tones, but a correct skin tone is not necessarily a pleasant one. I absolutely agree on the need of grey reference but I mostly forget. The default DNG-profile for the P45+ in Lightroom doesn't work well at all on the Sony's it is quite OK so I don't use home made profiles on that one.
I am not really enthusiastic about C1, as it doesn't fit my workflow, but Yair has shown to process that image to look decent.
Best regards
Erik
Erik, I know what the components in Lab are.
The point was, if you want to get serious about portraiture and skintones, it's best to shoot with a grey card and/or color chart and most importantly, develop an eye for this style of photography.
I know quite a few very serious and very famous portrait artists and none of them would be spending time doing any of this measuring stuff. This is one of those instances where the "Art" part needs a wee bit more emphasis than the "Science" part.
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...a correct skin tone is not necessarily a pleasant one.
Interesting. Is the aim of a portrait photographer to produce correct skin tone or pleasing skin tone? If the latter, do you think to yourself when you see people in reality: "Yuck! What horrible skin tone that person has"? If not, why not?
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The reason I posted the question is mainly that I try to find a profile that works well enough, and I am not familiar with skin tones.
Phase one P45+ portrait natural with film standard curve. That's what I used. I would like to know your opinion on whether or not you find my rendering of that image acceptable.
Again, I stress on not using DNGs or Lightroom if you want decent rendition of PhaseOne files.
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Hi,
See attached file. There are four values so there is some variation. I just took one of them.
I will repeat it with the average values.
Best regards
Erik
out of curiosity what is a, b for your skin that you measured ?
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Hi,
See attached file. There are four values so there is some variation. I just took one of them.
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4033/sqjl.jpg (http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4033/sqjl.jpg)
(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4033/sqjl.jpg)