Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: Paul2660 on December 12, 2013, 03:05:31 pm
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Image adjustment history, I still can't believe as long as Capture One has been out, that there is still no history, besides the undo button and that is pretty worthless if you are working between several images as the roll back just works in reverse sequence of steps on all images, not just the one file you need to go back with. This gets very confusing and hard to work with quickly. Working between LR and Capture One as I do, I love the fact that LR allows me to go back to step one on a image and start over or go midway etc. This is true on files that are years old also as long as the catalog is not corrupted. As you work up a file it's pretty easy now to go down one road, then change your mind to try a different path etc. with Capture One, most times I will just reset the image or create a variant and reset it.
Each tool LR and Capture One seem to get the final product done very well, Capture One with the adjustment layers, very powerful, and LR with the various adjustment tools.
For me the lack of a history per image just seems to be a really big oversight, and Capture One has been around longer than LR as I recall.
Am I the only one that would like to see this implemented?
Paul Caldwell
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For me the lack of a history per image just seems to be a really big oversight, and Capture One has been around longer than LR as I recall.
Am I the only one that would like to see this implemented?
No. While I like the color in Capture One very much, the first thing I noticed when I decided to give it another spin was the lack of history.
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I find that with Capture One and or LR, both offer so much now for a raw file, that I rarely if ever do much work in CS anymore. Maybe some final tweaking to either sharpening or color. But both tools have so much power now it's amazing. On average for me a D800 file will be sometimes as much as 40 different steps in LR or Capture One, and a Phase One file probably even more.
I tend to work up a file and then move back from it for a few days, this allows me to come back to it fresh and often I will catch a spot or area of the image where I was going after it too much, and I will want to change it. With LR, it's so simple to just scroll back down the history and find where I want to start, where as with Capture One, it's pretty much a start over, ie. with a new variant of the file. Where the history to me comes in so important is when you are trying to finalize color, WB or just a certain part of a image and some times this alone can eat up 10 to 15 different steps of history.
Capture One already keeps up a cache with the adjustments made to each file, (in session mode this is kept with the files not sure where catalog mode puts this) so to me it would be a coding issue to create a data base to show the adjustments.
I am always surprised to see that ACR also has no history of adjustments, at least I have never found one like LR has, which is one reason I will always defer to LR over ACR.
Paul Caldwell
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Maybe you just misunderstanded a principles of RAW editing?
For example - do you have "adjustments history" in you camera? Does it matter for picture that you select Focus Mode first than Exposure Program or vice-versa? Or maybe is better to set drive mode prior to White Balance?
Adjustmens happens when you psuh the shutter button - in camera or when you click Process button|hotkey.
Anyway, in C1 you have full detailed adjustments lists panel.
Also various people adjust various things first. For some cases is better to adjust WB - for some - Exposure and so on.
It's not a Photoshop with destructive and lossy adjustments (if you are not familiar with a Smart Objects PS concept).
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I guess I have misunderstood them since 1999 when I first started working with raw files. I do find that comment a bit strange as all I am asking for is a better control/data base of the adjustments I make which can easily number over 50 per image. I guess it's also a misunderstanding of processing in Photoshop to use the history palette there also? Obviously workflows vary between individuals. Mine has worked for me I can appreciate yours works for you also.
Not sure why I would want an "adjustments" slider in my camera. I really don't want a DOS or firmware based program to be working on my images. That is why I have always worked on them outside of the camera. Which is why I never save as jpg and use raw 95% of the time. I can't image working up a raw file on the camera and don't think anyone else would either.
My point is simple, your workflow may differ than mine, no problem. I find it very easy to work up a raw image in LR, and then go back through the workflow and alter or change something, hue, WB, fringe, sharpness, noise etc. anything that may be in that images workflow. I challenge you do that in Capture One as you can't unless you go back and hit the undo countless times and you will get lost as the undo moves between images (if you happen to work on more than one image at time which I do). Add LCC processing in to the mix and it gets ugly very fast. Moving back though the history allows you to see how each step of the raw conversion has altered the look of the image.
Asking for a history of adjustments made during a raw conversion to me is not a misunderstanding of how raw workflow is, but instead a pretty darn clear understanding of it and instead trying to get a better bit of control over the process to fine tune as the history screen allows in LR.
Each person has their own workflow for raw for mine I prefer to have a history of my adjustments.
Paul Caldwell
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Maybe you just misunderstanded a principles of RAW editing?
It's not a Photoshop with destructive and lossy adjustments (if you are not familiar with a Smart Objects PS concept).
Maybe you just misunderstood what the Paul was asking for??? This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the adjustments are applied when you export a file. It is about seeing what changes you have made in what order if you want to go back to a particular step in the process. Why do you think Lightroom has a History of adjustments made to the raw file?
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If all you want to do is save it to come back and see if you like it or want to change more, you could always make a "variant" after each iteration. Then after you get the "right" recipe for the series it would be easy enough to apply it to any number of files. But I think you want a specific list of specific changes and the ability to "back up" a step at a time, or simply "extract" a specific setting.
So, you can save the result, but not the written instruction. OTOH, variants do allow for side by side comparison of a given effect just as LR does.
Sounds as though what you want no doubt exists somewhere in the software already and could be mined with an update
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OK, Paul,
as i understand you - you prefer to make adjustments in some particular order - like EV first, colour profile second, WB third, lens corrections N-th and so on.
And you want to have option to quicly go back not to particulat step itself BUT cancelling adjustment for all previous stages in your workflow?
I think C1 is not suited well for such linear way of doing thins. As i say - History concept is completely virtual for non-destructive editing. Sorry, that С1's interface is not suits your habits.
Anyway, you an quickly appraise a contribution of any C1's tools simply by clicking on the Reset Adjustment button on corressponding tool. After that you can hi Undo button. If you want to swith off more adjustment - is clever to Copy Adjustments to clipboard prior to all this Rese|Undo operations.
May be not the familiar adobesque way but pretty useful.
Nikolai
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Once again you totally miss my point and that's fine. I use C1 for pretty much all my processing on Phase One files, P45+ IQ160 and IQ260. I believe that Capture One does a superior job on all Phase One files since 3.7.x (that's back about 7 years now). So my time with the software is pretty lengthy. I would just prefer to see a listing of the steps that were taken to process out a file. In that respect for my workflow, I believe LR has a advantage since they offer such a history. I don't know about Apple's Aperture as I have never used it.
As has been pointed out, the only way to do this in Capture One is to create a variant. This allows you to workup another version of the same file with different steps to compare, however I find stepping back through a long series of adjustments sometimes works better for me.
As I pointed out, I do 85% of my image adjustments from raw to tif in Capture One or LR, not using CS for that much besides some final plugin tuning (where I should mention the history palette helps out there also).
It's obvious that in your workflow such a need is not there, and I don't fault you for that at all.
Maybe I am a lone wolf on this request besides John who also agreed with this need.
Since Capture One has not implemented it yet to date, means that they must not consider it too important either, which to me is a shame.
Paul Caldwell
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The oddity is really that Lightroom records your adjustment history, not that C1 doesn't, and I'm not sure I can think of another raw converter that does so. Aperture certainly doesn't. Yes, it's a good aspect of Lightroom, and yes some people obsess too much about their steps and forget it's the final slider values that matter. Is it something wrong about C1, not really.
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Not an oddity but a reflection that what was once an element of good interaction design -- unlimited undo/redo -- has become a broader expectation thanks to web browser back-button history.
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Photoshop's session-limited history is unlimited undo, but Lr history is more like a record of transactions which may not be an oddity in general database-driven apps but is certainly so in this class of software. Unless you can cite another raw converter or photo cataloging app that offers it.....
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Interesting conversations.
I view the way the history feature of Photoshop and LR work, pretty much the same way. In Photoshop you are limited by the number of history states you allow. Both however work the same way. You can go back any number of steps, click on that particular step, it brings the image back to that state. If you make any changes from there, the history changes and goes from there forward.
No, I don't know of any other raw converter that allows this, I believe I stated that in 1st post, (was uncertain on Aperture).
Sorry to see that some others feel this is an un-natural act in the process of raw conversion and some others feel the need for a history is based on my possible frequent use of the back key on a web browser.
For me needs neither could be further from truth. I just find that for my workflow, especially in a raw conversion where there so many sliders to adjust, the history can allow a user to get back to an earlier state of the raw conversion and not have to start over.
Works for me, and saves a lot of time in my workflow. As a photographer very dependent on Capture One for certain files, I would just like to see the image history as a added feature.
As I have said many times before everyone has their own ideas about the ideal workflow, I have found that this feature of LR has definitely saved me a lot of time in the past and feel Phase would benefit by adding it.
Paul
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As you know, Paul, PhaseOne guys read this forum and will note your appreciation of this feature, so I wouldn't be too surprised if it eventually appeared in C1. But nor do I think one can be surprised that it's never been there. C1 has some things that make it better, and LR has others where it holds the advantage.
I'm not sure Photoshop's history is the best example. It is just a glorified undo and for most purposes the history is lost when you close the program. Lightroom's history is much more useful as it persists between sessions and has a range of uses. I don't use it much for getting back to earlier states but more for setting the Before side of Before/After comparisons when fine tuning. I just wish one could search on it (eg images > ISO 1200 where no noise reduction step applied), but that's one thing that Aperture does well.
John
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It's funny how everyone picks a nit. must be a bear to be a senior developer and try to anticipate, or catch up to people's idiosyncrasies. Guess they draw the line somewhere
In my case, I'd like a "pick" or "mark" or "flag" if you will that is a tag only within a given album, that would not carry over to the Master. So you don't waste a permanent marker like color or stars when quickly going through a group of pictures. Not carrying over would allow collections that are limited to just that group and therefore you won't have to "undo" when you add it to the broader group of keepers and leave your permanent ones for more important designations. Would also be nice if it was a simple keystroke on the fly so you not drag and drop or some other nonsense that can end it up in the wrong bin...
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John:
You make a very good point, that LR holds the history between sessions. Very key and of course it's gone with Photoshop when you close the image. I also totally agree that it's excellent for the fine tuning of a file. I was just working with some X-E2 files and IMO it's just much faster and easier to reset a slider by just going back a step in history or a few steps. LR since 4.x has had an issue where the sliders seem to drag, especially with D800 files, plus by going back a step you don't have to worry about centering the slider. Again it's just a workflow I prefer and everyone's will differ.
I was not attempting at all to slight Capture One's ability to produce a quality file as it's an excellent tool. I find I tend to just create a lot of local adjustment layers in Capture One as I can turn them on and off very easily and see the effects.
The power that both of these tools have given a user is pretty impressive, as I mentioned earlier, I just don't use Photoshop that much for adjustments since the tools in LR and or Capture One in many cases are just better, at least to me.
Paul Caldwell
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I view the way the history feature of Photoshop and LR work, pretty much the same way.
And you are right to do so.
... and some others feel the need for a history is based on my possible frequent use of the back key on a web browser.
That is not what I wrote nor what I think.
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Photoshop's session-limited history is unlimited undo, but Lr history is more like a record of transactions which may not be an oddity in general database-driven apps but is certainly so in this class of software.
Transactions are an implementation detail. The functionality is unlimited undo/redo.
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Transactions are an implementation detail. The functionality is unlimited undo/redo.
Nonsense.
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I don't think there's much chance of having a productive discussion with you.
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No-one's forcing you. Why not read what people write before you type your usual trollish comments? I wrote "more like a record of transactions", not "transactions", for example. But hey, aren't you a prize exhibit for the results of forums letting people hide behind a pseudonym....
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I wrote "more like a record of transactions", not "transactions", for example.
I fully and correctly quoted your words. (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=85046.msg689689#msg689689)
But hey, aren't you a prize exhibit for the results of forums letting people hide behind a pseudonym....
I'm an example that someone using a pen name may be less interested in name calling and ridicule (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem) than someone who doesn't.
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No you didn't quote, you clearly didn't understand the distinction I drew. And I described your comments as usually trollish, not you, "Isaac".
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Anyway, you an quickly appraise a contribution of any C1's tools simply by clicking on the Reset Adjustment button on corressponding tool...
Nikolai
...or just hold down the ALT key while you click the reset button for a temporary reset. ;)
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Which I believe takes back you to step one what the images looks like at import. I know all about the reset button. For my workflow just not what I am looking for. As stated earlier depending on the adjustment being made a simple reset to step one is pretty worthless. Temporary or not. For me reset in capture one is all or nothing.
As noted before it's very obvious to me now that for many people working with raw files and Phase One possibly, the screen showing the history of all adjustments is not needed.
Thankfully the folks at Adobe and LR do. I just need to start figuring out how to use the LR tool that works out LCC processing.
Paul Caldwell
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Which I believe takes back you to step one what the images looks like at import. I know all about the reset button. For my workflow just not what I am looking for. As stated earlier depending on the adjustment being made a simple reset to step one is pretty worthless. Temporary or not. For me reset in capture one is all or nothing.
As noted before it's very obvious to me now that for many people working with raw files and Phase One possibly, the screen showing the history of all adjustments is not needed.
Thankfully the folks at Adobe and LR do. I just need to start figuring out how to use the LR tool that works out LCC processing.
Paul Caldwell
Hi Paul,
I was referring to QWZ's suggestion which is not necessary if you use the step I mentioned.
A historical list of steps is not something I personally miss in Capture One (although I would miss it enormously in Photoshop!). But I can see why some may find it useful.
David
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John,
...Lr history is more like a record of transactions which may not be an oddity in general database-driven apps but is certainly so in this class of software. Unless you can cite another raw converter or photo cataloging app that offers it...
If I understand Paul correctly, Capture NX2 is another RAW converter that lists adjustments made by the photographer as a series of steps.
Like Paul, I too enjoy having a list that indicates adjustments in the order in which they have been made, which may be re-edited, moved within the 'stack', toggled on/off or deleted if need be, at any time. An undo button, by comparison, strikes me as a crude alternative solution, as it does not allow the photographer to see the effect of a change made to an earlier adjustment within the context of the effect of later adjustments. At least, not without having to reapply the subsequent steps again, which presumably requires the photographer to remember or note down the relevant value adopted for them.
Cheers,
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I personally find the history feature of LR invaluable. I cannot imagine why it is not already included in C1. This is just another reason why I dislike working in C1 so much. I do use it because it does a better job on certain files, but I much prefer the experience of working in LR.
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Personally I have no idea why I would have a "history" in a RAW Converter. A single "undo"/"redo" does do it for me.
Yet another feature request that would overload the software ...
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tho_mas,
Yet another feature request that would overload the software ...
Given the fact that RAW converters exist which provide a history but do not overload it, the above clearly is not the case.
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From my memory, Rob, NX's steps are less like LR's history and if anything close to C1's layers. But even if they qualify, that's only one other raw converter or DAM that has the feature.
Still, overloading the software is as cheap a counter-argument as accusing Photoshop of bloat just because you don't need some of its newer features.
John
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John,
From my memory, Rob, NX's steps as less like LR's history and if anything close to C1's layers.
I happily defer to you - I can't vouch for LR, having never used it, and I currently am in the process of evaluating C1 on a trial basis and therefore am not fully proficient with it.
...even if they qualify, that's only one other raw converter or DAM that has the feature.
To be fair, you only asked for an example. :)
Cheers,