Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Tuli on December 04, 2013, 09:10:20 pm
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1) I am looking into buying an Epson Stylus 4900; the cost of one set of cartridges is around $1,000. I will not be able to use 200ml in 6 months or even a year. How long after installing the cartridge is the ink OK if not completely used, making sure to regularly print tests when not in use, shaking the cartridges... will it hold two years for instance? There is not point getting this printer if I'll have to throw out expensive, unused ink. I must make the decision asap.
Thanks a lot!
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2) Does the 4900 have a tendency to have problems?
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If you don't print often, I would recommend the Epson 3880 as a more cost effective & trouble free alternative.
Rand
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You are right, but I need the roll for long prints.
Is the 4900 problematic? What problem, if there is one, is common with it?
Do you know whether the ink will be usable after lets say two years?
Thanks
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i have been using the 2400 that stopped feeding the paper, and when you push slightly it pulls it all the way thru and damages the paper. I have been struggling with this a long time. Checking online I realize that this is a common problem with the 2400 even thought it is considered trouble free.
.... by the way, I exhausted all sources, including Epson and can't find HOW MANY ML IT'S CARTRIDGE IS
so that I'll have a base for comparison.
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Your problem will be one of head clogs with rare use, not "expiration" of the ink, in my opinion.
John Caldwell
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I stated clearly that I intend to regularly pint test prints so that the heads will not get clogged.
I still desperately and urgently need an answer regarding the max length of time that the ink doesn't get bad (bad?)
much more than a year (two?)
|Thanks a lot
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This assumes your test prints replicate conditions of regular use. There has been a lot of discussion about this topic, and the topic of 900 series head clogs.
In the end, I don't see how you are going to get anything other than personal testimony from 900 series owners, as OEM inks aren't guaranteed for 2 years. Still then, the conditions of two years in my studio may be different from yours, so knowing how to apply my assurance may be difficult.
My *gut feeling* is that you'll be fine, meaning the prints probably won't change visibly unless there are head clogs that become difficult to clear as the ink ages. But this is purely a guess on my part.
I think you'll be left with the same dilemma with any printer or ink brand.
Good luck with your decision,
John Caldwell
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Don't think the longevity of the ink is an issue. The real issue whether one is ready to deal with clogs, paying for lots of wasted ink used for cleaning, paying for potential head replacement and/or paying for potential Epson service calls after 2-3 years. Alternatively is one may need to be prepared to pay for ongoing extended warrantee support. Would suggest first doing a google search on 4900 clogs, 4900 lawsuit and then making the call based on all the collective information and the printing habits.
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Thanks for your response. It sounds that you have experience and great knowledge of the subject. I would appreciate it if you share with me the info that you have regarding the points that you brought up. If I take the time needed for such a thorough research and won't make a decision immediately I will loose the funds and than it would be a mute point. Is it really that problematic? Is the 3880 much better? I do need the ROLL. I can get a new 4900 for $1,145 which isn't more, probably less than the 3880!
...Do you believe that the ink can be useable for two years?
thanks a million.
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Don't worry about the ink longevity. Two years is reasonable.
Michael
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Thanks.
For other printers you can get smaller cartridges!
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Really, the ink longevity isn't going to be a problem, unless you have severe climate control problems in your work space. Potential clogging is much more of an issue. I have heard of 3880 users with ink going on four years without a problem (same ink set minus O and G).
Daily nozzle checks aren’t enough to prevent clogging.
Brian A
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"I can get a new 4900 for $1,145". From what you have described as infrequent printing needs, I predict unless you are willing to pay say another 1.5K or so for extended warrantee that you will have clogs that you will not be able to clear using the normal cleaning cycles. You will have a very nice almost brand-new printer with all the bells and whistles including roll paper handling, $1000 ink in cartridges of which you will probably consume $500 in cleaning cycles, but in the end, a printer that does not print because colors are missing or is severely banding because nozzles are missing. I would stick to the 3880 for a workhorse printer.
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Me: Thank you guys for all the useful however and for opening my eyes! now I am more confused than ever.
So, I gave up on large prints (>17”W), on printing canvas (max width 17”-2”-2” or less, too narrow for canvas), and now give up on rolls/long prints that I need? Giving out to print will not work.
Do I understand correctly that the 4900 is extremely problematic and nobody should consider it but stay away from it? The 3880 has 80ml cartridges but it will cost me the same or more than the 4900. Mark Segal in his review of the 4900 has only praises. What is “the 4900 lawsuit” (Link)?. The only law suit that I found is against Epson’s ink. I was so excited getting the printer, couldn’t wait; this is one big headache!
I read the following forum in DPReview; not surprising there are contradicting opinions.
Epson 4900 Long Term Reliability: www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51587197
Someone suggested that I'll look at the 7800 in order not to be limited in print size and be able to print canvas. the 7900 is too expensive, buying 7800 used isn't a good idea and refurbished is questionable. also, it's huge. In the above forum there is a claim that the 7800 clogging problem is worse than the 4900!
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Why not consider a Canon? Never clog, user changeable printheads, ipf 5100 17 inch, roll feed, B & H Photo for $1500.
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I am an e4900 user and yes experience an occasional clog. I do not print every day but e ery other day do if needed a testprint. I simply love the printer as it is reliable and with excellent print quality.
It uses about 1ml per A4 on average.
The clogging can be an issue if you live in a dry climate. I live in the netherlands with a humidity begween 40-50% thereabouts. When not in use it is under a soft plastic cover which also aids in preventing clogs.
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Thanks a lot JRSmit for the info! How long have you had the printer? How long after getting it did you get clogs and how often? Do you know what was/were the cause(s) (i.e. didn’t print for x # of days…)?
How do you fix it? Can you do it yourself or you need repair?! If it’s needed to print a test print every other day (rather than every other week…) what do you do when you go away for a long time? It’s more problematic than caring for a pet!
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Thanks Enduser. Sounds interesting. $1,579.00 + quite expensive to unpack and put in place (for the 4900 I have it for very little).
All of photographers, art photography, master printers that I know...use Epson. I am familiar with Epson for years and have used it quite a lot. I don't have the energy to start now looking into something completely unfamiliar, to research, learn etc. I don't have the time for it or I'll lose the funds. Thanks anyway. I'll think of it; at this point I can't even think anymore...
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As you state "that you know". I also know one printer shop that use only Epson, several with combination of Canon - HP, Epson - Canon, Epson - HP, all profesionall printer shops.
Anyway large format printers are not so different. I started with HP, got an 44" Epson, and needed one day to learn Epson. Now I am prinitng on both of them without any problem. In photography you need to learn new skills every day - if you force yourself to stay with familiar thing you will probably stil shoot on large format films and develop photos in darkroom?
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your point is that I should us Canon?
I'll never,never use HP! I resent their dishonest absolutely unacceptable practices!!!
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If hot and dry i would do a test print say 2x a week. If normal temp and humidity i sometimes do not print for more than a week, then testprint and in most cases without an issue. If i wait for 2-3 weeks i first do a testprint then nozzle clean and then all is ok. The plastic cover does help. The clogging is not age related. I have the printer 2 years now.
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HI, Tuli: As others have said I can only speak from my personal experience with my E4900.
I'm a light duty printer-meaning some weeks I may make a half-dozen or so, other times I may go 2-3 weeks w/out making a true photo print. I bout the 4900 for it's B/W capability, but enjoy the rich colors as well.
There's another thread going discussing a user recovering some very serious clogs w/use of a cleaning solution in replaceable tanks. It seems to have been successful, though an N = 1 is by no means scientific. I've read in other posts, and here, of other users using inks well beyond expiration dating, and certainly some of mine will fall into that category as well.. My current unit is currently running mostly original 80 mL starter cartridges which have a 2/2013 expiration as they are from my first unit (which suffered a motherboard failure necessitating replacement). In the previously mentioned thread, a user commented (negatively) on a technique similar to what I use: "A sponge in the printer will NOT maintain humidity in the printer. Humidity is diffusive and will almost immediately disperse in the room and reach equilibrium." I use a utility type sponge in a small lunch-meat type plastic container set inside my printer. You can see how I do it here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=79249.0. When away for prolonged periods I use a cover to help keep the humidity isolated in the printer area. I don't debate what Randy C said about humidity being diffusive, however with the top cover closed the only exits are through the paper feed slots, and given the amount of time the water lasts (about a week with a half-filled container) I don't think it diffuses that rapidly and keeps the local environment (print head) more humid than the surrounding environment. Though w/out calibrated hydrometers to validate this it's strictly anecdotal. I live in the US Pacific NW so we're in the dry part of the season now, and I don't have a whole-house humidifier so I'm sure my relative humidity is at the lower end.
So...how does this work? I'd say pretty darn well. Between my 'real' print sessions, I'll print nozzle checks every 3-5 days after running a print of Wayne Foxs' cleaning page, available here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=79249.0. I print on a piece of plain copy paper, using a preset that let's me print w/the photo black ink as that's what I use most. Every 2 months I'll do an ink swap to the Matte Black just to move things around a bit in that line and run the same cleaning print, and give the ink tanks gentle agitation for 1/2-1 minute as well. I've never had more than a small gap (10% of total or less) in 1-2 lines of any channel. These have unfailingly been cleared by either using a paired cleaning of the affected channel, or several times by just waiting until the next day, reprinting the cleaning page and re-running the nozzle check.
I know others have had stubborn clogs in 1 or more channels, that multiple tries have failed to clear. Some have had to resort to pretty extreme/exotic measures to treat them, including some who do much more printing than I do, and thus should be less subject to clogs. As with all complex machinery, YMMV in your results if you copy my approach.
I wish you the best in your decision!
Thomas.
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Thanks you RJSmit, your info is very helpful. You stats that you “experience an occasional clogs”. Does nozzle test & cleaning always help? There are many claims that it’s quite common for the 4900 to have clogged that are not resolved by the above. Did you ever experience any of this? If so, how did you resolve the problem? Taking it for repair is really not practical for a 115lb monster. Calling someone home is hundreds of dollars! What do you or can one do when going for several weeks?
Thanks again
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Thank you Thomas for the detailed info!
- What do you mean by ‘prolonged period of time”? Indeed, a cover will protect but it’s not closed hermetically so I don’t know how effective I is when ones goes away for let say 5 weeks!? Maybe I should place it a kennel going away for an extended period…
- “I know others have had stubborn clogs in 1 or more channels that multiple tries have failed to clear. Some have had to resort to pretty extreme/exotic measures to treat them”
which measures? Did they always manage to unclogged using this measure? If not?
Taking it for repair is really not practical for a 115lb monster. Calling someone home is hundreds of dollars!
- Expiration date is 6 months from the cartridge installation; we know that this is an exaggeration. So 2/13 isn’t old it’s pretty much confirmed that a year isn’t a problem. The question is whether it will be usable after two years, will it produce a good print quality, won’t crack and won't cause clogs because of age, getting more concentrated…
…………….
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your point is that I should us Canon?
I'll never,never use HP! I resent their dishonest absolutely unacceptable practices!!!
My point is that you should use what is best for you. Do not have excuses like one you wrote: "I am familiar with Epson for years and have used it quite a lot. I don't have the energy to start now looking into something completely unfamiliar, to research, learn etc."
It is obvious that you want to use 4900, after such a long thread in which everyone point out that this is printer with problem, especially for someone who do not print all the time, you are still waiting that someone write to you what you want to hear - go and buy one!
You mention funds - there is no bigger lost of funds than to have printer that you spend 80% of time on diagnostic, cleaning the nozzles, making test prints, cleaning again - you spend not only a lot of time but also a lot of ink and paper.
My HP is ten times better printer than my Epson, I never, never, never do such thing, just printing, occasional cleaning of interior with ordinary paper towels, and occasional head change, which is cheap. Yes I change the belt - after five years, so what, I change belt in my car also. I got brand new unused Epson 9800, after printing less than one roll of paper I already change 5 ink carts 220 ml each, have one maintaince tank filled with ink, have several cleaning cycles, and lost huge 44" print because head clogs in the middle of the print, during printing, unbelievable!
When I print on my HP I just let printer working. Sometimes when I print for big exhibitions I go home in the evening, come back next day and have a room full of prints, basket is too small for such action, I just let them to go on the floor which I cover with some cloths, and each and every one is always perfect. Also there is no black ink switching, no maintaince tanks, no nozzle checks, no cleaning cycles, no sponges in printer when I am absent (sometimes for several months - during the summer). What else to say. In my country HP is one of the best company regarding help, support and service. I don't know if HP in your country is so bad or every one in my country is so bad that HP stands out. I am more than satisfied with their products and services.
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Would not call the e4900 a problem machine. Had a hp9180 before that with same printheads as z3xxx. Had a lot reliabilith problems. Yes you can replace heads yourselves. The cost time ink and paper together and the surprise moments of failure. Like in the middle of a job that needs to be done. I am very happy with my e4900 . I can print meters from roll without the fear of having to redo. The switch from pk to mk is the only thing where it falls short compared to hp. But then again, scheduling your jobs reduces the impact. For me this whole clogging thing is for well controlled and not eorse than with the hp.
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I stil have HP9180 - it is different kind of printer than DJ Z 3100, you can not compare it at all, it is a small format printer with much less ink carts, fewer colors, without ability to calibrate itself and so on.
One of the great features of Z3100 is posibility to make ICC profiles in printer, I even use it now to calibrate new papers for Epson, I use it to make ICC profiles for all my printers for example for Matte Litho Realistic paper for printing in 9180.
No suprises with DJ Z3100, just printing and printing and printing...
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HP! Discussing HP so much, I can't hold my peace! HP is outrageously dishonest knowingly, consciously, deliberately! There should be a class action against them based not on individual impressions as people here express about companies & products but based on un-disputable facts. They do not loose sleep because I'll never, never touch their products. The only way to tell them that their practice is unacceptable is by a meaningful number of people avoiding buying their products. HP is two letters, HPHP is a four "letter word" (a curse). I promise to tell the story shortly.
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HP! Discussing HP so much, I can't hold my peace! HP is outrageously dishonest knowingly, consciously, deliberately!
Are we talking about printing and inks or something else? Get a printer, learn to use it it like the rest of use do, and make prints. There is a lot to know about making the tools work to the best of their ability, so get to work.
John Caldwell
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Are we talking about printing and inks or something else? Get a printer, learn to use it it like the rest of use do, and make prints. There is a lot to know about making the tools work to the best of their ability, so get to work.
John Caldwell
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You have yourself so tied in knots over this and it is not necessary.
More then enough good info listed above and elsewhere to make a well informed decision.
Time to hit that BUY button.
Ps: if you go with a new Epson 4900 I would buy the extended 2 year warranty which should give you piece of mind for a full 3 years.
I have 4 Epson printers,9900,4880,3880 and 1430. The 3880 and 4880 and 1430 never clog. (Thats it I jinxed them now.)
The 9900 takes a pairs clean once or twice a week and I can live with that.
I would buy yourself the 4900 you will love it.
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RJSmit
How do you resolve clogs that don't clear up with nozzle & print tests?
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I promised to explain RE HP. John Caldwell, I find your tone inappropriate for a decent forum and out of line; I do not appreciate it.
A few yeas ago I bough an HP all-in-one printer for $300 quite a lot for an office printer. Being discontinued they offered about $100 REBATE. I took the BATE, but never got it. by the time that I opened the package the ink was expired. I bought new cartridges but the printer didn't work demanding the starter cartridges. I was under the impression that the only difference of these is the size. Staples printers experts and print repair shop technician were sure that this is the case - starter cartridge are just smaller. However, they couldn't get the printer to work realizing that the starters were needed in order to activate the printer.
I found a forum discussing this realizing that I am in big company! People who for different reasons didn't have the starter cartridges (i.e present...). The undisputable conclusion of experts is that there is NO way to start using the printer otherwise. I contacted HP spending an awful lot of time, reaching different departments and personnel, headquarter and hi management. They stated clearly that there is NO way to start the printers without the starters! I asked to purchase a set but they assured mt that there was no way to purchase them except with the printer itself. They were still manufacturing other printers that use the same cartridges so I requested to pay for; they refused, insisting that they will not sell them outside the printer! I have never heard of any other case like this.
The only purpose of going to such length designing the printers and cartridges this way can only be to achieve exactly the purpose that they did: people who won't be able to use new printer they spent money on and will have to buy another printer. I find that it is absolutely outrageous selling printer and not providing the cartridges to use the printers, and deliberately and dishonestly cheating people . We should have had a class action! They only way to tell them that thier practice is unacceptable is to avoid buying their products. I definitely don't get close to an HP product!
I still have the printer in the original package; I would have sent it to you John Caldwell as a birthday present, had you deserved one.
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Did you try to start printer with original cartridges despite expiration? All HP printers I have, and I have 5 of them accept such cartridges they just warn you that you will lost you waranty if use expired cartridges.
Other question is where you bought your printer? Not directly from HP I suppose, as they never sells directly. You bought it from some dealer that cheat you, not the HP. But HP should react to such practice, and they will react in my country, they will for sure replace the product, give you a gift in paper and ink and send someone to check if everything is OK.
That is why I have so many printers from HP, they are really user friendly (printers and company), react fast, they will do anything to have satisified customer, but I suppose this depends on the stuff that run company and is localy based.
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The idea that inks can expire in the cartridge yet last 100 years on the page is nonsensical. I use bulk inks and funnel fill cartridges in my 9800. I see no settling in bottled inks after more than a year. I use them without incident.
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The idea that inks can expire in the cartridge yet last 100 years on the page is nonsensical.
Paint can last decades after being applied to a wall, yet deteriorate in the liquid state while in the paint can. It doesn't seem unreasonable to wonder about a parallel between ink and paint.
John Caldwell
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Agreed, John. But wall paint is a complex chemical brew that is designed to cure (ie undergo a chemical reaction) on application. Ink jet ink is basically pigments and water. 95 percent water.
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It's not so simple as pigment and water. The other (albeit small) chemical makeup is important in terms of carriage of the pigments through the inkjet system (the heads in particularly) in order to deliver it to the substrate and then have the solvent (water in the case of an aqueous based printer such as we're discussing now) work correctly and adhere the pigment to the surface (overly simplified).
In my experience, ink is fine if not exposed to the air far, far longer than the designated expiry dates but you'll do well to give the carts a shake to help to overcome any settling or pigment separation. I've used carts 3 years past their expiry date without issue.
Once ink carts are opened (used) they are exposed to the air and of course you then risk deterioration. That said, most modern carts are very well designed and protect the contents and I've seen them used up to 2 years after insertion without problem.
Expiry and best before dates are often just mandated in the case of anything that could possibly deteriorate. I doubt any of the printer companies are pushing significant extra sales as a result of people rushing to replace expired cartridges and it's far more likely a cost to them to have to clearance-price or scrap those with short dates that resellers don't want to be stuck with.
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Thanks Farmer, this is very helpful. Indeed, the questions about the the length of time that the ink doesn't go bad relates to the date that the cartridge was opened / installed. I question whether I'll use 200ml in two years but I can't predict; since the ink is very expensive, and this will be relevant long term each time I buy ink. Someone in the forum whose usage is similar to mine uses ~80ml/yr so the question is whether anybody has experience with a longer period.
It's seems that the more serious problem is the head clogging that occurs even to some frequent/daily users that regularly check the nozzles and print. It there a method to deal with stubborn clogs or some can only be done by an expert technician? A warranty is a good idea however, Epson's is very expensive and very limited - extra only 1 yr in some cases, or 2 and only to units currently under warranty. I Heard that there are companies that give warranty for much reasonable prices. Do you know of any?
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Damir, HP should hire you to promote them. I bought the printer at staples. they DID NOT CHEAT me! They are not responsible to HP's cartridges, expiration date, policies... I believe that it is obvious to anyone who isn't .... by HP that this is HP's responsibility! They were stunned as I and other were to find out the truth.
I have never heard (did you?) of starter cartridges and printers that were programed in such a way that the printer can NOT be operated with regular cartridges. It is obvious the HP went into length programing and developing this NASTY TRICK exactly for the purpose that it served: to "catch" people.
You ignore the fact that I wrote that I interacted several times with several HP's departments including HEADQUARTERS & HI MANAGEMENT. This was not a behavior of an irresponsible dealer, this was HP's intended, deliberate policy. A DECENT company, which HP is NOT is responsible to provide the customer with ink to operate the printers that they sold to them. They refused. There were many people in my shoes. Yes, you are right, if they couldn't provide cartridges for the $300 brand new printer they should have REPLACED it - were they honest and decent, which they were not!
The irony is yes, they offered me cartridges meaning telling me to buy another HP printer to use these cartridges and buy many more so that they can make more money on me. What else could I have done with the cartridges? I don't think that they offered the cartridges to me to hang them in my living room for decoration!
Since you are in such good terms with HP, get along great with them and am sure that they are honest and responsible than I would appreciate it if you arrange that they will replace the printer - still brand new - with one that can be used to actually print rather then to take space or throw on enemies!
Thanks a lot!
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Although I am just one satisfied customer which enjoy various HP products I will be glad to help you to replace the printer if I am in US, but I am not.
In our country (Croatia) in your case you will be able to return printer to Staples and get your mony back, i suppose, beacuse we don't have Staples here. I returned different product which works perfectly well to different shop just because I did not like them in some aspect, therefore I am sure that I will be able to return printer that can not work.
HP is guilty because they made stupid product, but in my opinion Staples should return money or change the printer, here it will be impossible to sell printer or anything else that past its expitration date (ink for example), it will be possible to give product that does not work to service so that they make it work when you are under waranty, and it will be possible to replace product in 8 days without any question and get your money back.
I always have impresson that customer protection in my country is in "middle age" regarding to other countries, but it seems to me that it is the other way.
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Here in Australia, you attend the "Returns" counter with your purchase docket, and you say you're returning it because ..... (any reasonable excuse). This method works for us just about anywhere here. You usually get the choice of money back or replacement. Very straightforward and simple. (Best done whilst the product is still on the shelves where you shop.)
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Thanks.
This was too long ago. By the time that I finished my dealing with HP it was too late to return. Damir, Staples is not to be blamed; they are not responsible to the expiration date inside the box. They didn't develop this convoluted scheme! They didn't do anything wrong knowingly; it's not their responsibility to cover for HP's viciousness. HP did wrong deliberately! HP went to great length to do it, it must have been for a reason! The bottom line is that HP is not going to be rich or go bankrupt if they were honest and fair and either provided me with starter cartridges or replaced the printer as you suggested. This was the decent thing to do; they were not decent, not fair nor honest. I wouldn't deal with them. They probably won't loose sleep because I don't - they did enough money on this scheme alone. THe only way to make a statement that their practice isn't acceptable is to avoid buying their products.