Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: Dinarius on November 20, 2013, 03:49:29 pm
-
But, you must sign up by December 2nd.
https://creative.adobe.com/plans/offer/photoshop+lightroom
Apparently, you don't need to have owned a previous version of either.
This makes it a no-brainer for those who have never owned either. But, it will p*** off a lot of long time loyal customers.
An admission of defeat by Adobe?
A (half-way house) response to the backlash against subscription?
Well?
D.
-
Makes no difference to me. For my purposes I see no new features to make me WANT (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=82924.0) to upgrade from CS5.
-
I have owned all the PS CS versions.
This new offering does not annoy me at all. I think it is a great opportunity for those who were concerned with the high cost of entry.
I will recommend this to all. The cost per month is minimal for the function provided in these two packages.
-
Just bought CS6 because I didn't want to subscribe.
-
Just have to reiterate what was said below. Great offer for those who have not used PS or Lightroom and are willing to give it a try. 30 day money back guarantee. You must sign up for a year. Very cheap way to see if you like the way Adobe is heading with the new features of their products.
I have owned all the PS CS versions.
This new offering does not annoy me at all. I think it is a great opportunity for those who were concerned with the high cost of entry.
I will recommend this to all. The cost per month is minimal for the function provided in these two packages.
-
I thought the original offer was sign up by the end of the year. Is it still end of the year for people who own photoshop cs3-cs6?
Just went to the site. See it's a black friday offer for all till 2 december.
Also, just got an email from adobe thanking me for signing up for creative cloud. Says click the link to get started. I haven't signed up.
Adobe confuses me.
ok, Update: I posted my question on the adobe cc forum and Beverly Gray, an adobe staff member, wrote that the offer for cs3-cs6 owners still stands till the end of december. I'll be on the road for two weeks starting this weekend and didn't want to have to make a rushed decision about subscription or not.
-
Sorry, my previous statements were inaccurate.
It seems that the pricing of 9.99 US$ per month for Photoshop CC, Bridge CC and LR5 is not limited in time and is available for any new customer new or not.
The offer does expire on Dec-2nd.
It is a good price for sure but it does clearly show that Adobe is getting desperate and forecasting lower revenues than expected.
I may get tempted.
Regards,
Bernard
-
If it was a simple $9.99/mos forever, no strings attached for LR & PS they would get me. But as a CS owner it's not worth $25/mos. Swing and a miss.
-
This is getting increasingly amusing. If I am not mistaken we have:
- Former PS owners moving to Photoshop CC + LR: 9.99 US$ per month forever,
- New customers moving to Photoshop CC + LR: 9.99 US$ per month for one year for Photoship CC + LR then 25 US$ per month for ever,
- Former Creative Suite customers willing to continue to use the suite CC: 40% discount from 500 US$ per month to 300 US$ per month for the first year,
- Former Creative Suite customers willing to move to photoshop CC: no discount, regular price of 25 US$ per month forever.
The repeated discount campaigns clearly show that they are far from reaching their sales targets and probably on the verge of major revenue warning that could have a large impact on stock value, yet they don't seem to be realizing that they are not doing anything for what may be one of their most important niches... former CS customers who would get the 9.99 US$ forever deal on PS+LR.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard....you may very we'll be correct in your statements.
However, I have not seen that former ps owners are guaranteed $9.99. Nor have I seen that new customers going to the new program will change from $9.99 to $19.99 after a year. Did I miss a FAQ or term item?
As far as former CS bundle customers....seems they can take advantage of this also.
-
Can't you just sign up for PS and LR?
If it was a simple $9.99/mos forever, no strings attached for LR & PS they would get me. But as a CS owner it's not worth $25/mos. Swing and a miss.
-
What really annoys me is because I live in Europe I have to pay 12,20 euros per month, that it is nearly 50% price increase...
Adobe is one of the fee companies that I know they do that, nor amazon, nor spotify, nor google...
-
Just a couple of points to help clarify some info:
The $9.99 price is the regular price, and not a promotional price that automatically goes up after a year (like some of our other promotions do). Each year when you renew, you renew at the current price, which may be higher or lower (or the same) than what you initially signed up for. This offer is NOT a price guarantee. I imagine, that sometime in the future, the price will change, but in general we don't have plans to raise the price.
The current black friday promotion runs for two weeks. It is basically the previous Photoshop photography bundle, with all restrictions removed (i.e. requirements for previous licenses, etc...). Once the black Friday offer is done, the previous policies / restrictions around the photography program go back into effect for new people joining.
Hope that helps...
mike chambers
mesh@adobe.com
-
Just a couple of points to help clarify some info:
The $9.99 price is the regular price, and not a promotional price that automatically goes up after a year (like some of our other promotions do). Each year when you renew, you renew at the current price, which may be higher or lower (or the same) than what you initially signed up for. This offer is NOT a price guarantee. I imagine, that sometime in the future, the price will change, but in general we don't have plans to raise the price.
The current black friday promotion runs for two weeks. It is basically the previous Photoshop photography bundle, with all restrictions removed (i.e. requirements for previous licenses, etc...). Once the black Friday offer is done, the previous policies / restrictions around the photography program go back into effect for new people joining.
Coming from the Creative suite 6, I find this to be a good offer and have decided to subscribe. CC is now installed on 2 of my Macs.
Thanks for listening.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Coming from the Creative suite 6, I find this to be a good offer and have decided to subscribe. CC is now installed on 2 of my Macs.
Thanks for listening.
Cheers,
Bernard
I agree. After, what I would call an ill thought out roll out, and much vitriolic arm waving by resident Adobe "expert wannabes" (you know who I mean), I think that Adobe has responded very well to meet the concerns of photographers. My only last concern is that, while LR is included in this "bundle" that it remain as a "forever" licensed product....or not stop working after monthly payment stops. The nature of LR is that most of the WIP still needs LR.
John
-
ok this got more, not less, foggy..
what is the "black friday promotion"?
the one I am aware of is the $9.99 for PS and LR, offered until 12/31.
Is there another?
-
Yes.
Op or here
http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html#pslr-bundle
Frank
-
so there is one offer for $9.99 for PS and LR, available until 12/31.
then a second offer for $9.99 for PS and LR, available until 12/2.
ok then...
-
so there is one offer for $9.99 for PS and LR, available until 12/31.
For PS CS3+ people
then a second offer for $9.99 for PS and LR, available until 12/2.
For anyone
-
AH! thanks...
-
The way things are going there will be another deal around the corner. Adobe wants to rope in as many people as possible to the subscription model. Once you're in...
For what it's worth, I think the $10/month would be very reasonable is there was an exit strategy. I think if adobe had a policy that once you have been paying rent for 3 years you can opt out any time and keep using what you currently have. If you want back into the rental model later the clock would start ticking again.
This model is totally tilted adobe's way. If they fail to innovate and improve the product the customer is SOL. The customer can't leave cause then they have nothing.
At the end of the day actions speak louder than words and adobe's actions haven't been encouraging.
-
For what it's worth, I think the $10/month would be very reasonable is there was an exit strategy. I think if adobe had a policy that once you have been paying rent for 3 years you can opt out any time and keep using what you currently have. If you want back into the rental model later the clock would start ticking again.
This model is totally tilted adobe's way. If they fail to innovate and improve the product the customer is SOL. The customer can't leave cause then they have nothing.
At the end of the day actions speak louder than words and adobe's actions haven't been encouraging.
Yes, this remains indeed true.
Having decided to buy into the model doesn't mean I am happy about it or have more appreciation for the kind of arm wrestling Adobe is inflicting to his customers.
But cheaper makes it less painful to wait until a transition to the perfect alternative when it shows up. I intend to keep encouraging alternatives by funding their development through the purchase of licenses.
I could have decided to sit with CS6 for the foreseable future, but I expect upcoming OSX evolutions to make it a non workable solution sooner than later. I assumed that this would happen in 2-3 years and that I would have no choice but to upgrade because of other software I am using that may not work well anymore on 10.8/10.9 OSX.
So assuming it happens in 3 years, I will have spent 360 US$ till then.
Assuming that prices stay the same, if I had started to use CC then at 24 US$ a months then (in 3 years from now), it would take 2.2 years to break even.
So after 5 years and 2 months it would have become more expensive not to have bought into CC now.
My guess is that a very good alternative will be available by then... so it may not have been a wise decision.
Future will tell. ;D
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Hope that helps...
Hi Mike,
Thanks for clarifying, sad that it's necessary.
On that note, I've read that after 30-days Adobe will charge subscribers 50% of the annual price as a cancellation fee...
Can you confirm that?
Cheers,
Bart
-
Hi Mike,
Thanks for clarifying, sad that it's necessary.
On that note, I've read that after 30-days Adobe will charge subscribers 50% of the annual price as a cancellation fee...
Can you confirm that?
Cheers,
Bart
Hi, Bart...
I expect Mike will respond for himself, but wanted to give my view.
I have seen this as a part of all the CC offerings....and think it is more than reasonable. After all, to get the good rate....and to avoid people jumping in and out....you have signed up for a year. Many other companies (mobile phones?) expect full payment if you cancel. 50% seems very fair.
However, Adobe, in my experience has been very fair. When CC first came out, I went for the full trial. About 8 months in I found I really wasn't using all the pieces and asked to change to PS only. They allowed that and canceled the full deal with no penalty. When the photographer option was announce, they again allowed the shift to the lower cost offer which included LR. There were a few minor billing errors, but these were also quickly cleaned up with a phone call. As with most customer service operations, some of the tacks in the box were sharper than others, but I found Adobe service to really try to be friendly and accommodating.
-
Hi, Bart...
I expect Mike will respond for himself, but wanted to give my view.
I have seen this as a part of all the CC offerings....and think it is more than reasonable. After all, to get the good rate....and to avoid people jumping in and out....you have signed up for a year. Many other companies (mobile phones?) expect full payment if you cancel. 50% seems very fair.
Hi John,
I have no problem with fulfilling one's obligations 100%, contract is contract. But to pay in advance? Isn't a subscription supposed to spread the cashflow over the committed period instead of the straight purchase. What happens after six months, do the payments stop (since only one year was committed to), or are you automatically locked in for another year? What happens to the upfront payment when the other party goes out of business? This seems a very one-sided surprise money grab (including interest) deal after signing up, if it's true, or was this mentioned upfront? Just asking.
Cheers,
Bart
-
Hi John,
I have no problem with fulfilling one's obligations 100%, contract is contract. But to pay in advance? Isn't a subscription supposed to spread the cashflow over the committed period instead of the straight purchase. What happens after six months, do the payments stop (since only one year was committed to), or are you automatically locked in for another year? What happens to the upfront payment when the other party goes out of business? This seems a very one-sided surprise money grab (including interest) deal after signing up, if it's true, or was this mentioned upfront? Just asking.
Cheers,
Bart
I think it is a pretty simple 50% of what is remaining when you ask to cancel.
So in your case, if after 6 months, you would have 6 months remaining on the contract. 50% of the remainder would be due. If you want to cancel after 8 months, the cancel fee would be 50% of 4 months.
-
The way things are going there will be another deal around the corner. Adobe wants to rope in as many people as possible to the subscription model. Once you're in...
.
Once you're in...you can leave at anytime? Why the dramatics?
-
Once you're in...you can leave at anytime? Why the dramatics?
Funny how the authors of trollish comments always hide behind pseudonyms....
-
Once you're in...you can leave at anytime? Why the dramatics?
We've been over this in the past few months dozens of times.
The layers/masks/adjustments layers/transparency modes/... created in PS are valuable IP that only exists in tight connection with Photoshop's algos.
There are many cases where there is a need to go back and modify these IP assets.
There is no good solution to reuse this IP outside PS, meaning that stopping to pay the subscription means that you become unable to access these crucial IP assets of yours.
Think of it as a safe that is the only place in the universe where your money can reside... but you are forced to rent the safe... ???
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Once you're in...you can leave at anytime? Why the dramatics?
Funny how the authors of trollish comments always hide behind pseudonyms....
Well, I don't like the rental model either, but chez's comment is perfectly reasonable. I don't think that makes him or her a troll. (Or me! :))
FWIW, I have signed up to the deal because it worked out at about the same cost I've paid in the past. I used to upgrade Photoshop every 2 or 3 versions, and Lightroom every time. The rental comes to a bit less than the price of upgrading Photoshop every 2 versions (if they come every 18 months), and a bit more than the price of upgrading every 3. But they stopped you upgrading other than the immedieately previous version, so I couldn't even upgrade every 2 or 3 if I wanted to, even before they stopped perpetual licenses for future versions altogether. I don't like it, but for me it's not a bad deal at the current price. If they jack up the price in a year, well I've still got a CS5 and LR5 licence.
However, few people seem to like the rental-only system, and the recent price drops have shown (I think) that it's not going to be easy for Adobe to make people switch - not without much lower prices than they'd hoped.
-
Yes, this remains indeed true.
Having decided to buy into the model doesn't mean I am happy about it or have more appreciation for the kind of arm wrestling Adobe is inflicting to his customers.
But cheaper makes it less painful to wait until a transition to the perfect alternative when it shows up. I intend to keep encouraging alternatives by funding their development through the purchase of licenses.
I could have decided to sit with CS6 for the foreseable future, but I expect upcoming OSX evolutions to make it a non workable solution sooner than later. I assumed that this would happen in 2-3 years and that I would have no choice but to upgrade because of other software I am using that may not work well anymore on 10.8/10.9 OSX.
So assuming it happens in 3 years, I will have spent 360 US$ till then.
Assuming that prices stay the same, if I had started to use CC then at 24 US$ a months then (in 3 years from now), it would take 2.2 years to break even.
So after 5 years and 2 months it would have become more expensive not to have bought into CC now.
My guess is that a very good alternative will be available by then... so it may not have been a wise decision.
Future will tell. ;D
Cheers,
Bernard
I hear you Bernard - well said.
-
Well, I don't like the rental model either, but chez's comment is perfectly reasonable. I don't think that makes him or her a troll. (Or me! :))
In isolation, perhaps not, Simon. But chez has posted a series of similar comments questioning the validity of objections to the rental model, and knows exactly why people object to it (Bernard put it very well). That's why I called chez's post trollish.
John
-
In isolation, perhaps not, Simon. But chez has posted a series of similar comments questioning the validity of objections to the rental model, and knows exactly why people object to it (Bernard put it very well). That's why I called chez's post trollish.
John
Understood.
-
Hi Mike,
Thanks for clarifying, sad that it's necessary.
On that note, I've read that after 30-days Adobe will charge subscribers 50% of the annual price as a cancellation fee...
Can you confirm that?
Cheers,
Bart
If you do a yearly plan, there is a penalty for canceling it after the first month (this applies to all yearly plans, and is one reason the yearly plans are cheaper than month by month).
Hope that clarifies for you.
mike chambers
mesh@adobe.com
-
If you do a yearly plan, there is a penalty for canceling it after the first month (this applies to all yearly plans, and is one reason the yearly plans are cheaper than month by month).
Hope that clarifies for you.
Hi Mike,
Partly, it confirms the 6(?) month penalty. So that could mean that after 11 months, cancelling during that 11th month, would carry a 6(?) month penalty? Is there anything written available, or does one have to find out when already committed?
Cheers,
Bart
-
I think this is a fantastic and generous offer. If you only upgrade Lightroom annually at $79, it costs you about $7.00 a month. For $5.00 a month more you get CS6? How can you beat that deal? I'm in.
-
Just so you guys are clear (some seem are not) it says right on the Adobe site that the $9.99/mos price is ONLY for the first year, then you are renewed at the REGULAR price (double, right now). It's not $9.99 forever.
-
Just so you guys are clear (some seem are not) it says right on the Adobe site that the $9.99/mos price is ONLY for the first year, then you are renewed at the REGULAR price (double, right now). It's not $9.99 forever.
And this is the one thing that is making me hesitate. Really, I wish it had been a two year pricing at $9.99, then I would hesitate a bit less.
Overall, not a bad price on that first year. After that....
-
Just so you guys are clear (some seem are not) it says right on the Adobe site that the $9.99/mos price is ONLY for the first year, then you are renewed at the REGULAR price (double, right now). It's not $9.99 forever.
From an Adobe representant in Adobe forums:
"The important thing to note is that the $9.99 price is not an introductory price for a year. This is the regular price for this plan.
We cannot guarantee that the price will stay exactly the same year after year - it may go up, it may go down. We don't have plans to change the price, but just like all of our other prices for our services and products, the prices may change in the future.
Hope this helps.
Thanks
Bev"
http://forums.adobe.com/message/5865261#5865261
-
Just so you guys are clear (some seem are not) it says right on the Adobe site that the $9.99/mos price is ONLY for the first year, then you are renewed at the REGULAR price (double, right now). It's not $9.99 forever.
To say "double" is clearly misleading. See John Nack (http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2013/11/a-new-deal-for-all-photographers-photoshop-lightroom-for-9-99mo.html): "As before, the intention is not to get you in at $9.99/mo., then crank up the price after a year. $9.99 is the expected ongoing price."
-
Just so you guys are clear (some seem are not) it says right on the Adobe site that the $9.99/mos price is ONLY for the first year, then you are renewed at the REGULAR price (double, right now). It's not $9.99 forever.
The REGULAR price is $9.99 for this package. That doesn't mean it won't go up after a year but it would be quite unusual for a REGULAR price to double IMHO.
-
Just so you guys are clear (some seem are not) it says right on the Adobe site that the $9.99/mos price is ONLY for the first year, then you are renewed at the REGULAR price (double, right now). It's not $9.99 forever.
No, that is wrong. The regular price for this program is $9.99. You are renewed at what that price is when you renew, which is currently $9.99. It may go up or down in the future, but we dont have any plans to change it.
The regular price for a single app subscription is $19.99, however, that is different than the photography program.
mike chambers
mesh@adobe.com
-
Then you guys need to fix the wording on your Terms page: Renewal
After the first 12 months, we will automatically renew your contract based on the current price of the offering.
-
Just to clarify, here's my confusion. The Photography program is on special until the 2nd at $9.99 right? But you say that's the regular price? So what's the special? If the whole deal is that it's only available till the 2nd, are you saying the ONLY people that will be able to even get it will be those that signed up right now and renew next year? If not, and it will be available after the 2nd, then it must be at a higher price, otherwise, what's the special? But you say that $9.99 is the regular price and that's the planed renewal. So please clarify completely - what is so special about the current 'deal'? If it's indeed $9.99 for renewals as well, I'll sign up right now.
-
Then you guys need to fix the wording on your Terms page: Renewal
After the first 12 months, we will automatically renew your contract based on the current price of the offering.
I think the wording is perfectly clear. The current price today is $9.99 and the current price in a year will either be $9.99 or something lower or higher than that ie. whatever is current a year from now. Why are so many having a problem with this?
-
Oh I think it just occurred to me - the whole 'deal' until the 2nd is not the products or price, simply that the requirement for certain prior product purchase is lifted?
-
Just to clarify, here's my confusion. The Photography program is on special until the 2nd at $9.99 right? But you say that's the regular price? So what's the special? If the whole deal is that it's only available till the 2nd, are you saying the ONLY people that will be able to even get it will be those that signed up right now and renew next year? If not, and it will be available after the 2nd, then it must be at a higher price, otherwise, what's the special? But you say that $9.99 is the regular price and that's the planed renewal. So please clarify completely - what is so special about the current 'deal'? If it's indeed $9.99 for renewals as well, I'll sign up right now.
It's on special to allow those who do not presently own a Photoshop CS3 - CS6 license to subscribe. After December 2 the terms revert to requiring the CS2 - CS6 license.
-
Cool I just purchased :)
-
Cool I just purchased :)
Hi,
Let us know if you get charged for 6 months the second month, and how that is explained to go after 6 months. That is still a mystery. The penalty for early termination that Mike mentioned is not described anywhere in the terms and conditions.
All I can find on the current Terms page (http://www.adobe.com/misc/terms.html) (Termination section 20.1) is: "Any fees paid by you prior to your termination are not refundable. Termination of your account shall not relieve you of any obligation to pay any accrued fees or charges." There is no mention of a penalty, so I'm still wondering what Mike meant, or confirmed.
Cheers,
Bart
-
It's on special to allow those who do not presently own a Photoshop CS3 - CS6 license to subscribe. After December 2 the terms revert to requiring the CS2 - CS6 license.
1. Or until Adobe realizes its new model is still falling flat, and then it will probably offer a few more deals.. and depending how they go maybe even more deals. What they don't want to accept is this subscription idea isn't going down as well as they thought it might.
-
It's in the terms page, of the deal link: http://www.adobe.com/store/en_us/popup/offer/ccm_photoshop_app_offer.html (http://www.adobe.com/store/en_us/popup/offer/ccm_photoshop_app_offer.html)
-
Hey Mike, since you're here maybe you can answer this. Why do your apps when installing, use the largest volume drive available rather than the system, C: or installation drive? I've seen other poorly coded apps during install doing this also - it's obvious because when my DROBO is on, that is always my largest drive - but it's SLOW compared to my SSD, where I'm actually installing the apps. So I get this huge brake put on the install, the DROBO starts clicking and sure enough I look to see all these install temp files being written by the installer. Might mention it to the programmers to fix the install routines, to use the install drive, NOT the 'largest' seen.
-
It's in the terms page, of the deal link: http://www.adobe.com/store/en_us/popup/offer/ccm_photoshop_app_offer.html (http://www.adobe.com/store/en_us/popup/offer/ccm_photoshop_app_offer.html)
Ah, great, another set of terms. At least these are clearer, they just don't mention that 50% of the annual price will be billed on month 2, if that is indeed the case as mentioned somewhere else on the web.
Cheers,
Bart
-
Ah, great, another set of terms. At least these are clearer, they just don't mention that 50% of the annual price will be billed on month 2, if that is indeed the case as mentioned somewhere else on the web.
Cheers,
Bart
Cancellation
We'd hate to see you go, but if you cancel within the first 30 days starting from your contract date, we'll give you a full refund. Otherwise, you'll be billed 50% of your remaining contract obligation for the cancellation or removal of seats. If you ever need to cancel, just call Customer Support.
Seems pretty clear to me....50% due only if you cancel.
-
Hi,
Let us know if you get charged for 6 months the second month, and how that is explained to go after 6 months. That is still a mystery. The penalty for early termination that Mike mentioned is not described anywhere in the terms and conditions.
Can't speak for every where in the world but my annual subscription is billed every month. I've never heard of them billing for 6 months after the first month but perhaps it does in some parts of the world. I'm in Canada.
-
Seems pretty clear to me....50% due only if you cancel.
Hi John,
I agree, in those terms it seems clear, although the strange thing is that those didn't show up when I clicked on the terms link attached to the Dutch page offer (for € 12,29, or at the current exchange rate US$ 16.66 incl.VAT, per month for an annual commitment) ...
Cheers,
Bart
P.S. And now the terms have changed to something similar (in Dutch) as in the link kalearia posted. It's like trying to hit a moving target ...
-
Ah, great, another set of terms. At least these are clearer, they just don't mention that 50% of the annual price will be billed on month 2, if that is indeed the case as mentioned somewhere else on the web.
Cheers,
Bart
That is not correct. We don't bill 50% on month 2. If you cancel early from a year long membership program, there is a 50% fee. If you do a monthly program, there is no such fee.
You get billed the same each month.
mike chambers
mesh@adobe.com
-
You get billed the same each month.
Thanks Mike, that makes more sense.
Cheers,
Bart
-
For me its over. Shortly before the offer was there I bought CS6 ... :P
-
If Adobe changes their plans and prices every week- and -in the meantime - losing all their creditcard numbers to hackers:
it seems to me they loose on their credibility. At least that is how i feel it.
Credibility is something you have to built up slowly but can be broken down in a second...as they showed.
I will wait and see if they are building again before i decide to switch to CC no matter what the price.
CS6 is my buggiest Photoshop version but i know at least it will open my photographs now and in the future without extra fees - anytime...
-
If Adobe changes their plans and prices every week- and -in the meantime - losing all their creditcard numbers to hackers:
it seems to me they loose on their credibility. At least that is how i feel it.
Credibility is something you have to built up slowly but can be broken down in a second...as they showed.
I will wait and see if they are building again before i decide to switch to CC no matter what the price.
CS6 is my buggiest Photoshop version but i know at least it will open my photographs now and in the future without extra fees - anytime...
This is exactly why everyone is reading the fine print and asking all the questions. This would have never happened six months ago. Adobe might not know it yet but it's called a death spiral.
-
Well I hope this isn't a sign of things to come. Obviously a fresh install...2nd time opening...never EVER happened on CS5 or 6 in all these years.
-
CC working here but I couldn't install LR5 on my 10.6.8 mac pro in 3 attempts, getting a cryptic error message in a great looking ascii text window, it reminded me of my AIX days. No issues on my 10.9 macbook pro. Go figure!
I find the overall experience to be pretty smooth though.
Will need to look into that LR issue since the betterlight raw files are in DNG format.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
CC working here but I couldn't install LR5 on my 10.6.8 mac pro in 3 attempts, getting a cryptic error message in a great looking ascii text window, it reminded me of my AIX days.
Because LR 5 requires at least 10.7.x to install (it's listed in the system requirements). Good reason to update to 10.7.5 (at the least).
-
Because LR 5 requires at least 10.7.x to install (it's listed in the system requirements). Good reason to update to 10.7.5 (at the least).
Thanks Jeff,
That makes sense. I was assuming thst such basic pre-reqs were checked by the installer.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
For me its over. Shortly before the offer was there I bought CS6 ... :P
Me too, and I have some residual irritation that I was made to do an upgrade I hadn't planned on just to stay in the game
However, the current offer terms, (£8.78 p.m. in the UK) are too good to refuse imo, so I think I'm going to buy it.
Just to clarify, though: if at some point in the future I decide to jump off the CC bandwagon, I'll still get to keep the current-at-that-time iteration of PSCC on my computer, and can still re-purchase LR on a perpetual license basis. Is this a correct understanding of the current Adobe position, anyone?
Jim
-
Just to clarify, though: if at some point in the future I decide to jump off the CC bandwagon, I'll still get to keep the current-at-that-time iteration of PSCC on my computer, ...
Hi Jim,
No you don't. And that (the lack of a real exit strategy) is one of the big issues, you lose access to all proprietary layer functionality of your work-in-progress files the moment you stop paying. They try to keep you paying with that prospect in mind, and that's why some say that they hold your work to ransom. The only thing you can do is flatten the result and live with that, and start all over if you need to adjust something with one of the alternative photo-editors that happen to be still around at that time.
... and can still re-purchase LR on a perpetual license basis.
For the moment there seem to be no plans to discontinue a perpetual licence option for Lightroom. But Adobe also seems to change their minds a lot lately ...
Cheers,
Bart
-
Hi Jim,
No you don't. And that (the lack of a real exit strategy) is one of the big issues, you lose access to all proprietary layer functionality of your work-in-progress files the moment you stop paying. They try to keep you paying with that prospect in mind, and that's why some say that they hold your work to ransom. The only thing you can do is flatten the result and live with that, and start all over if you need to adjust something with one of the alternative photo-editors that happen to be still around at that time.
Cheers,
Bart
Thanks for the warning, Bart. Like Tom Waits says: "The big print giveth, and the small print taketh away" :'(
Just when I start to feel warm towards Adobe, and tempted by their carrot, they bring out the big stick and hit me over the head with it!
Oh well, at least I have til the end of December to decide how to go with this. In a way for me it's down to whether I'll still need the LR plugin that PS has become in maybe 5 or 10 years time, or whether by then LR will give me all I need. It kinda looks like that could be...
Cheers
Jim
-
Enough is enough.
I am a busy working UK photographer and in recent months I have gone through the exhaustive process of trying to find an alternative to Adobe's gun-pressed-against-my-temple subscription policy, as I am sure many pro photographers, unhappy with Adobe's revised policy, have also done.
Fool me then, for realising it was a depressing, time wasting process - because for my particular requirements (Adjustment Layers, CMYK, Pen Tool, 16 bit etc etc) there is nothing out there that I can switch to.
Nevertheless, I will draw my own blood before I "rent" software. I honestly do not mind paying $1000.00 for the next Photoshop as a perceptual license because I would know exactly where I was in my life - I had paid for a product, I would use it, I would always be able to use it. It cost me $1000.00, it is mine, thanks very much, I am happy.
The day I pay Adobe a subscription for their software will be the day I put all my personal and business contacts onto Apple's Cloud...
Ian
-
For me its over. Shortly before the offer was there I bought CS6 ... :P
You could always look at it as your exit strategy, since I think it's beginning to seem unlikely that Adobe will come up with anything particularly worthwhile in that regard.
-
The regular price for this program is $9.99. You are renewed at what that price is when you renew, which is currently $9.99. It may go up or down in the future, but we dont have any plans to change it.
Does Adobe have answers for the following scenarios?
1. A photographer signs up for CC PS+LR to try it out, uses it for a few winter months, then plans to suspend it for the summer, since in the warm weather he prefers to shoot and swim.
2. Another unfortunate soul will slip in February on black ice and breaks his hip, consequently confined to a lengthy stay in bed using iPad and perpetual version of Photoshop Express which he acquired for another ten bucks. He resents shelling out monthly CC payments for something he can't use.
3. Yet another unlucky soul runs into financial difficulties and finds sherif's lock on his door with the computer and precious version of CC PS+LR taken away.
Will there be a way to suspend their CC plan with an option to renew it in the fall?
-
Do you think it's realistic to cater for such cases? Maybe price by the gigabyte processed? Obviously not, but I wonder if Adobe should just dump the $19.99, blow away the fog, and say it's $9.99 or whatever they think the market will bear (assuming they have any idea!).
-
I would welcome an annual purchase at a slight discount, get rid of the monthly payments. I have many subscriptions and always like the bulk purchase option - web hosting, registration, anydvd, etc.
-
I would welcome an annual purchase at a slight discount, get rid of the monthly payments. I have many subscriptions and always like the bulk purchase option - web hosting, registration, anydvd, etc.
Or a reasonable one time purchase for a non transferable lifetime license.
-
I DO NOT like Adobe's new subscription based software rental policy at all. However, $9.99 per month was low enough to tempt me and I subscribed.
-
If anyone thinks this subscription will stay at $9.99 forever...they are naive. There is no way Adobe can guarantee this...and thinking it might be so is just wishful thinking. Costs go up on everything with software costs being so labour intensive...how can anyone guarantee staying at the same price 10 years from now?
-
If anyone thinks this subscription will stay at $9.99 forever...they are naive. There is no way Adobe can guarantee this...and thinking it might be so is just wishful thinking. Costs go up on everything with software costs being so labor intensive...how can anyone guarantee staying at the same price 10 years from now?
I agree. They'll probably call it "Creative Cloud II" and then change their rates. Doing away with the perpetual part is one way to force people into paying forever for it.
Not having a perpetual license is a deal killer for me even if it was 50 cents a month for eternity. Someplace I may sign off the net and then what? Maybe a dedicated business and editing computer that I don't want connected to the net ever (Employees play a lot you know.).
I had a satellite radio, two of them, and no more since their rates went up when XM Radio got taken over by Sirus XM. Had "free updates forever" for WinZip software and they dumped that too one day. Qimage had free updates until they changed the name to Qimage Ultimate and dumped updates for the other version. Anyone with GM remote access in their cars knows better than that (Free first year, and then wham!).
Not to mention satellite TV where it started at $29 per month and shot up to $100 month. Cable the same. Much the same for cellular service too. Mine started around $19 month and is over $100 now. Some friends pay far more than that.
I read where someone suggested if no one signed on for the Adobe Cloud stuff, we might have a perpetual licensed version of CS7 by now. Maybe true, but people who sign on for this Cloud stuff will only perpetuate the ongoing bills with rising prices with no ability to use it once ones stops paying for it. Only when one threatens to cancel do they lower it - a small bit, which then rises a year later (U-verse comes to mind).
So far this whole $9.95 guarantee seems more of a carrot before the donkey, prior to it stepping over the cliff.
SB
-
OK, so we have established the price.
Have there been any new and useful features in LR or PS in the last six months? Or even any announcements about planned features for 2014?
-
OK, so we have established the price.
Have there been any new and useful features in [...] or PS in the last six months? Or even any announcements about planned features for 2014?
None since CS5, at least AFAIAC :)
-
None since CS5, at least AFAIAC :)
It just depends how hard you push Photoshop and if you're the sort of person that tries to exploit new tools. Some of the content-aware fill features (CS5 and CS6) can save lots of time, the wet media and erodible tip brushes are amazing if you paint or draw with Photoshop, or in the CC version the adjustable rounded corners have caught my eye. Other things I'd like in CC are synchronising setup across computers and being able to install on a Mac and a PC. So yes, there are goodies if you're the kind of person who pushes the program. The better question is whether that will continue to be the case.
-
Can't say I see anything in CS7, oh I mean CC....but CS5 to CS6 had some great stuff. One HUGE time saver was the Close All option alone! Lots of little things like that plus the much better interface. All in all that move saved me huge chunks of time.
-
I'm still waiting for adobe to fix the Script UI in Bridge. It was working in CS5 but script created dialogs with scroll bars, dropdowns and trees aren't functioning in CS6 or CC. This means any Bridge script using these controls is non-functional and I'm having to keep CS5 active to run my scripts. Adobe will not even acknowledge the problem that was identified in the CS6 beta well over a year ago.
-
Content Aware Fill in PS CS5 was a great addition, that alone justified the PS upgrade even at full price. The tiny improvements made since then might be appreciated by some, and not even noticed by others.
And the whole premise of "And it's just US $9.99/month when you sign up for a one-year plan. Just trust us! " is outright misleading.
I was planning to give it a try and evaluate it for a couple of months before deciding whether I should continue with it. It appears they don't provide such an option.
Even lesser programs you can try out nowadays before purchasing them. And with those programs at least you know what you are getting.
More accurate description would be "Before you can even look at it, you'll have to commit $119.88 and then you can use it for twelve months".
-
Content Aware Fill in PS CS5 was a great addition, that alone justified the PS upgrade even at full price. The tiny improvements made since then might be appreciated by some, and not even noticed by others.
And the whole premise of "And it's just US $9.99/month when you sign up for a one-year plan. Just trust us! " is outright misleading.
I was planning to give it a try and evaluate it for a couple of months before deciding whether I should continue with it. It appears they don't provide such an option.
Even lesser programs you can try out nowadays before purchasing them. And with those programs at least you know what you are getting.
More accurate description would be "Before you can even look at it, you'll have to commit $119.88 and then you can use it for twelve months".
If you cancel within the first 30 days Adobe will refund your cash:
http://www.adobe.com/store/en_us/popup/offer/ccm_photoshop_app_offer.html
-
This may be an even bigger threat for Adobe than the lukewarm CC sales not withstanding several rounds of discounts...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/21/rag-bone-diy-project_n_4317572.html
Cheers,
Bernard
-
I was planning to give it a try and evaluate it for a couple of months before deciding whether I should continue with it. It appears they don't provide such an option.
Even lesser programs you can try out nowadays before purchasing them. And with those programs at least you know what you are getting.
More accurate description would be "Before you can even look at it, you'll have to commit $119.88 and then you can use it for twelve months".
You can do a 30 day trial with CC products just like with non-subscription versions.
-
And the whole premise of "And it's just US $9.99/month when you sign up for a one-year plan. Just trust us! " is outright misleading.
I was planning to give it a try and evaluate it for a couple of months before deciding whether I should continue with it. It appears they don't provide such an option.
Even lesser programs you can try out nowadays before purchasing them. And with those programs at least you know what you are getting.
More accurate description would be "Before you can even look at it, you'll have to commit $119.88 and then you can use it for twelve months".
We have thirty day trials for Creative Cloud, which will allow you to try the software and service out.
Just select "Free" on the plans page:
https://creative.adobe.com/plans
mike chambers
mesh@adobe.com
-
Actually the $9.99 plan makes a lot of sense to me. I had signed up for the $29.95 plan but canceled it - an easy process - and signed up for the Photography plan. Everything went very smooth.
Victor
-
If anyone thinks this subscription will stay at $9.99 forever...they are naive. There is no way Adobe can guarantee this...and thinking it might be so is just wishful thinking. Costs go up on everything with software costs being so labour intensive...how can anyone guarantee staying at the same price 10 years from now?
I, for one, would never expect the price of any product or service to be locked in forever ... or for ten years ... my concern is with the path of future development. With the perpetual license model, customers could speak with their wallet if a particular version upgrade offered little to enhance their personal workflow. The consumer of the product had a direct vote of approval or pass on a version and could demonstrate that opinion with something that multi-billion dollar corporations understand ... cold, hard cash ... or the lack thereof.
With the CC model, subscribers are forced to underwrite any and all future development, regardless of what direction that development takes. ... or at what pace those new features/functions are implemented. Sure, subscribers could pass on updating apps when the new version really doesn't bring much to the party ... however, they must continue to pay their monthly stipend to Adobe or be boxed out. The model removes any and all power from the consumer to voice their disproval of the product in a meaningful manner large corporations can take to heart. The only method to be heard by such large interests is to impact their bottom line. That is entirely impossible under the CC model with no viable head-to-head alternative.
I am convinced that over the long haul, development and innovation will slow in pace and decrease in value because Adobe will have a captive audience who once CS6 becomes a dead, end-of-life product, subscribers will have nowhere to exit. It's not that I question the engineers involved as to their capabilities, expertise or desire to create ... I question whether the executives involved will continue to support the current level of investment in resources that would ensure reasonable further development of their products for any extended period. Those very executives have done little over the past couple of years to instill any confidence that they have their customer's best interests at heart. After all, they had to "listen" for months to come up with the Photographer's Package in the first place. If they had a clue about their customers, such an offer would have been announced back in May.
I still have about 34 days to make up my mind on this offer before the deadline will pass ... so far, there is very little, other than the current attractive price point that is encouraging to a confident path into the future. Unless something major presents itself soon, I am leaning very strongly on pass up the offer.
-
Photoshop CC has been out for a while now (5 months?).
What new features have Adobe added since its release?
-
I, for one, would never expect the price of any product or service to be locked in forever ...
With the CC model, subscribers are forced to underwrite any and all future development, regardless of what direction that development takes. ..
I am convinced that over the long haul, development and innovation will slow in pace and decrease in value because Adobe will have a captive audience
I still have about 34 days to make up my mind on this offer before the deadline will pass ... so far, there is very little, other than the current attractive price point that is encouraging to a confident path into the future. Unless something major presents itself soon, I am leaning very strongly on pass up the offer.
1. Given favourable market conditions I wouldn't expect more than 12 months. And it will go like this: You can keep your current sub at it's current price, but if you want this new bauble/feature/access.. you'll need to upgrade. And soon they'll discontinue the current sub. THough, the way things have been going for Adobe lately I wouldn't say conditions are good.
2&3. With subs there is hardly any incentive to innovate and add new features. After all, it's not like they can advertise "upgrades" and sell new copies. To increase profits past their delta point they'll need to increase sub prices.. so there might be a few new features.
4. Adobe I think is learning just how large their used market is by now.. and those customers won't be coming over to subs..
-
One point that I thought that was good about the subscription model was the fact that software developers no longer had to do major features in time to hit marketing targets. Now they can concentrate on ironing out product niggles that would normally get sidelined by developing headline features to a deadline. And also work on fancy things too.
My issue it that although the PS + LR deal is pretty good value, a lot of photographers also do some video editing work too or use another package occasionally, but another 550% increase in cost to get the whole CC suite seems like a shocking amount more in comparison.
The getting the entire suite seems like a bargain. But the reality is that very, very few people if any use the whole thing, so you simply get a bunch of products that you do not use. But are still paying for them. In reality typical Adobe users such as video editors, print designers or a web developers are only ever going to use a subset of the tools.
-
Photoshop CC has been out for a while now (5 months?).
What new features have Adobe added since its release?
What have the Romans ever done for us? Read back in the thread and you'll see I mentioned some. Another is Generator.
-
This (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Photoshop+cc+updated+new+features#) is also useful for that sort of question.
-
Perhaps I asked the wrong question. What I wanted to know is whether Photoshop CC subscribers (I'm stuck on CS6) are happy with the the pace that Adobe is adding new features?
-
My issue it that although the PS + LR deal is pretty good value, a lot of photographers also do some video editing work too or use another package occasionally, but another 550% increase in cost to get the whole CC suite seems like a shocking amount more in comparison.
Or they are like me and just HATE Premiere! I love Sony Vegas and do a LOT of video work.
-
This (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Photoshop+cc+updated+new+features#) is also useful for that sort of question.
Yep, "let me google that for you" is pretty cool!
Cheers,
Bernard
-
What have the Romans ever done for us? Read back in the thread and you'll see I mentioned some. Another is Generator.
PS Generator is a great example of something I would never use. Same for Behance and uploading to Cloud. Seems like all real innovations are going into LR and the PS project was taken over by marketing guys and beancounters.
I started with PS 3.0 in 1994, and kept upgrading every time a new version came out. Until PS 6.0 in 2000.
The pace of development slowed down after that and I didn't see any dramatic improvements in PS until 2011 when PS CS5 came out with Content Aware Fill. Between 2000 and 2011 the trusty PS6 served me well. I didn't use it every day, but it was paid for, it was there when I needed it, and I was able to move it without any difficulties and hassles to new computers, as I upgraded my hardware.
When PS CS5 was announced, I was not eligible anymore for an upgrade and had to fork out again the full price for CS5. I didn't mind so much, since just the CAF feature paid for it many times. Looking at the list of new features in PS CS6 and PS CC, I see a number of additions but not too many that would simplify my workflow or improve productivity. These wouldn't be features as the oil paint filter or support for Middle Eastern languages that were advertised in PS CS6.
With the CC model, subscribers are forced to underwrite any and all future development, regardless of what direction that development takes. ... or at what pace those new features/functions are implemented. Sure, subscribers could pass on updating apps when the new version really doesn't bring much to the party ... however, they must continue to pay their monthly stipend to Adobe or be boxed out. The model removes any and all power from the consumer to voice their disproval of the product in a meaningful manner large corporations can take to heart. The only method to be heard by such large interests is to impact their bottom line. That is entirely impossible under the CC model with no viable head-to-head alternative.
I am convinced that over the long haul, development and innovation will slow in pace and decrease in value because Adobe will have a captive audience who once CS6 becomes a dead, end-of-life product, subscribers will have nowhere to exit. It's not that I question the engineers involved as to their capabilities, expertise or desire to create ... I question whether the executives involved will continue to support the current level of investment in resources that would ensure reasonable further development of their products for any extended period. Those very executives have done little over the past couple of years to instill any confidence that they have their customer's best interests at heart. After all, they had to "listen" for months to come up with the Photographer's Package in the first place. If they had a clue about their customers, such an offer would have been announced back in May.
I still have about 34 days to make up my mind on this offer before the deadline will pass ... so far, there is very little, other than the current attractive price point that is encouraging to a confident path into the future. Unless something major presents itself soon, I am leaning very strongly on pass up the offer.
Well said and very likely scenario.
It's a sad state of affairs when we get more news / rumours from a very secretive company about upcoming large iPhone models, 13" iPads, and round Macs than about any new plans and directions in Adobe PS development. Doesn't make a good case for switching to the subscription model.
As for now, I upgraded my perpetual LR license to LR 5 and will keep using CS5 until I see a compelling reason to switch to a better product, preferrably with a perpetual license.
-
PS Generator is a great example of something I would never use.
Despite my best efforts, a friend says the same about layers! A new computer led him to upgrade and on Adobe's site he didn't see any alternative to renting. He still doesn't use layers.
-
Or they are like me and just HATE Premiere! I love Sony Vegas and do a LOT of video work.
That's a different argument. Vegas is a much underrated programme and criminally ignored by Sony. Many years back not long after Sony bought up Sonic Foundry who came up with Vegas, Acid etc, at a Video Trade show I asked the chaps promoting Sony products, why Sony Laptops came with trials of Premiere. Apparently each part of the company was completely separate and didn't really talk to each other. Which kind of undermined one of the biggest benefits of being a large diverse company.
If Sony had given away Vegas with its laptops or cameras for a few years they'd have grabbed a huge slice of the market as Vegas was so much better than the competition, which has since implemented a lot of the good ideas in Vegas.
Some products in Adobe's Creative Suite were similar, with numerous solutions to the same problem. Sometimes it was difficult to see that they came from the same company.
And Vegas being great is sadly not much use to those using Macs.
-
Some products in Adobe's Creative Suite were similar, with numerous solutions to the same problem. Sometimes it was difficult to see that they came from the same company.
Maybe because they didn't? Remember Macromedia?
-
It wasn't just Macromedia products that were different.
But when a good solution was added to one part of CS, it didn't necessarily go to other products where it would be equally useful.
-
I started with PS 3.0 in 1994, and kept upgrading every time a new version came out. Until PS 6.0 in 2000.
The pace of development slowed down after that and I didn't see any dramatic improvements in PS until 2011 when PS CS5 came out with Content Aware Fill.
Really!?! You sound like John's friend who doesn't see the point in layers. There's never been a Photoshop upgrade that hasn't made my life easier [as a photographer]. Not always headline features like content aware, but sometimes really useful things like subtle UI tweaks that make the day to day usage so much smoother.
-
Just for your information, Adobe has extended this program until December 8th:
http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/buying-guide.html
Regards,
David
-
You misread. That's the normal version, where you have to be a previous customer. The special deal was it was open to anyone, it's over.
-
No, it is not over - it has been extended to Dec 8. See https://creative.adobe.com/plans/offer/photoshop+lightroom
-
LOL nice- another shining example of mixed Adobe information. On THAT page it says "This offer is available to anyone until December 8, 2013. There are no previous product ownership requirements." - so yep, still on (need more people??)
But on the first link it says "This offer is available to customers of Creative Suite editions or individual products, version CS3 or later (CS3.x, CS4, CS5.x, or CS6), who purchase directly from Adobe. Switch to Creative Cloud now. " - so closed.
I think the OPEN is correct though and they just can't proofread for shit.
-
Indeed, they're confusing themselves as much as the customer.
-
LOL nice- another shining example of mixed Adobe information. On THAT page it says "This offer is available to anyone until December 8, 2013. There are no previous product ownership requirements." - so yep, still on (need more people??)
But on the first link it says "This offer is available to customers of Creative Suite editions or individual products, version CS3 or later (CS3.x, CS4, CS5.x, or CS6), who purchase directly from Adobe. Switch to Creative Cloud now. " - so closed.
I think the OPEN is correct though and they just can't proofread for shit.
Are you still seeing this?
Looking at both:
http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/buying-guide.html
https://creative.adobe.com/plans/offer/photoshop+lightroom
I am seeing December 8th. If you are still seeing it, which country are you in?
mike chambers
mesh@adobe.com
-
Both links show 8th December when viewed from Australia.
-
It has been extended in the US to Dec 8. I would not be surprised if they keep extending it. They're behind their plans...
-
Really!?! You sound like John's friend who doesn't see the point in layers. There's never been a Photoshop upgrade that hasn't made my life easier [as a photographer]. Not always headline features like content aware, but sometimes really useful things like subtle UI tweaks that make the day to day usage so much smoother.
Indeed, I really kept upgrading each version from PS3 to PS6. And you'll be pleased to know, that I do like and use layers.
However, I didn't see any substantial improvements between PS CS5 and the current version of PS CC to justify the switch.
This past summer, when I attempted to upgrade my perpetual copy of LR, I placed an online order with Adobe, who happily took all my information, including my credit card info, and informed me the next day by email, that they were unable to process the transaction. They did not specify the reason (the card was in good standing and Topaz Labs, a smaller and more competent supplier was capable to process another order using the same credit card). Then, I ordered a physical copy of LR5 upgrade from Henrys, a major Canadian camera store. They were out of the upgrades and it took 5 weeks before Adobe managed to ship them new upgrades. In the meantime, Adobe kept lackadaisically all my personal data in their database which was recently hacked.
Their CC offer started at $19.99, then it was reduced to $9.99, with Dec 31, Dec 2, and now Dec 8 deadlines.
It is somewhat confusing and it makes it hard to trust that outfit.
-
I thought the Creative Cloud Photography Program ran until the end of December for those who own Photoshop CS3 - CS6?
Is that still true?
-
Yes.
-
I found the link to the Dec. 31 offer for CS3-6 users.
http://blogs.adobe.com/photoshopdotcom/2013/09/photoshop-photography-program-now-available.html
-
John and Jack,
Thanks.
-
And now they've extended it again - see http://blogs.adobe.com/photoshopdotcom/2013/12/9-99-photoshop-photography-program-extended-to-dec-31.html
-
And now they've extended it again - see http://blogs.adobe.com/photoshopdotcom/2013/12/9-99-photoshop-photography-program-extended-to-dec-31.html
OMG
Well, insulting your loyal customer base (licenced users of previous CS products) seems to become the norm.
Wait, perhaps there will be another deal for those, next year ... ?
Cheers,
Bart
-
OMG
Well, insulting your loyal customer base (owners of previous CS products) seems to become the norm.
Wait, perhaps there will be another deal for those, next year ... ?
Cheers,
Bart
I'm a loyal customer and don't feel insulted one bit. In fact, I'm happy for those that could not afford to experience PS previously, now they can try it out for at least a year at $10 per month.
Why would you feel insulted?
-
I'm a loyal customer and don't feel insulted one bit. In fact, I'm happy for those that could not afford to experience PS previously, now they can try it out for at least a year at $10 per month.
Not in Europe. We pay 37% more (based on todays exchange rate).
Why would you feel insulted?
Maybe it's a cultural thing, but apparently paying customers (i.e. those who helped Adobe to become as profitable as they are and who used to get a special deal till Dec 31st), are no longer given a special treatment. It's sad that it needs explaining that that is insulting.
Anyway, they've made it easier for me to make my decision. I'll wait for a better deal.
Cheers,
Bart
-
I think i will wait for the 5$ offer :)
-
I think i will wait for the 5$ offer :)
Absolutely, only available for those who never subscribed before ;-)
Cheers,
Bart
-
I think i will wait for the 5$ offer :)
I wonder if Adobe were to offer the entire CC for say $15, would anyone not subscribe?
-
You don't get it.
$50.00 a month would be fine if they offered an end solution.
Until then the answer is NO!
-
You don't get it.
$50.00 a month would be fine if they offered an end solution.
Until then the answer is NO!
+1
-
Not in Europe. We pay 37% more (based on todays exchange rate).
Maybe it's a cultural thing, but apparently paying customers (i.e. those who helped Adobe to become as profitable as they are and who used to get a special deal till Dec 31st), are no longer given a special treatment. It's sad that it needs explaining that that is insulting.
Anyway, they've made it easier for me to make my decision. I'll wait for a better deal.
Cheers,
Bart
I guess you'll feel insulted even more when you wait past Dec 31 and find the price has gone back to $19.99 per month and someone who had never owned PS will be paying $9.99 because they signed up in December.
Seems to me you would not have signed up regardless so offering a deal to new comers is just noise.
-
I guess you'll feel insulted even more when you wait past Dec 31 and find the price has gone back to $19.99 per month and someone who had never owned PS will be paying $9.99 because they signed up in December.
Wrong. I use Photoshop CS6 for almost all my edits (together with the TopazLabs plug-ins), but sofar CC doesn't offer enough new features that I cannot do with other applications to urge me into a bad deal.
Seems to me you would not have signed up regardless so offering a deal to new comers is just noise.
Wrong again, if I were not interested in a fair deal, I wouldn't bother to ask/wait for it.
Cheers,
Bart
-
Wrong again, if I were not interested in a fair deal, I wouldn't bother to ask/wait for it.
Cheers,
Bart
Hi, Bart...
I may have missed something in your earlier posts, but what do you consider a fair deal?
Current offering, to me seems fairly priced. I don't like that I lose PS CC if I stop paying, but it is not the end of the world as I have finished output (TIFF PSD)....and I can still edit them, up to the capability of CS6.
LR, for now, stays available (not clear, to me, if I would need to buy latest license). This is important as most work is not in a final form.
If LR went rental only I would drop Adobe like a stone.
John
-
Wrong. I use Photoshop CS6 for almost all my edits (together with the TopazLabs plug-ins), but sofar CC doesn't offer enough new features that I cannot do with other applications to urge me into a bad deal.
Cheers,
Bart
really. So you feel insulted today when someone who has never purchased PS can get the same deal as you, yet you would not feel insulted when you have to pay twice the price as someone who never purchased before. You sure about that? What about you paying three times the price...that make you feel even better. ;D
-
You don't get it.
$50.00 a month would be fine if they offered an end solution.
Until then the answer is NO!
That's a separate and much argued about issue.
I'm positing a lower price that would dramatically increase uptake, the same would apply to a non-subscription model.
-
You don't get it.
$50.00 a month would be fine if they offered an end solution.
Until then the answer is NO!
What sort of end solution do you mean? Can you give examples of what you have in mind?
-
An end solution is one where you could still edit your work after ceasing to subscribe. No more updates obviously, but no being left high and dry either.
A software subscription is effectively payable until you die, if you wish to re-edit stuff.
-
What I find interesting is how my feelings toward a vendor affect my spending decisions. I have upgraded every version of Photoshop since version 3 - all the way through to CS6. I did not always need the upgrade but I wanted to stay on top of the technology and support a great product. Somewhere around CS4 I started to become a little disenchanted with Adobe. It seemed that bugs were not being resolved, especially in the Bridge program. The quality control appeared to be less than it could be. With the Adobe push of CC I have become more annoyed - to the point where I find it very difficult to spend $10 per month.
So, how did Adobe manage to change my perspective about being willing to spend money? I think it comes down to trust. I trusted Adobe to be improving Photoshop for a long time, but their behavior over the last few years has eroded the trust. Now they are saying "rent me and we promise to make it better". Hmmm.
What Adobe has accomplished is to move an ardent supporter into someone that may buy their new products, but very reluctantly. One who is looking for alternative solutions. One who is advising others to be very careful about buying into the whole CC thing. In the end I doubt I will opt for the $10 per month deal. Not because of the money but as a matter of principle.
-
An end solution is one where you could still edit your work after ceasing to subscribe. No more updates obviously, but no being left high and dry either.
A software subscription is effectively payable until you die, if you wish to re-edit stuff.
I don't like the subscription model. I've subscribed to the offer, but I'd rather just update PS every two or three, as I used to be able to do, and update LR every time.
However, I can't see any half-way house if Adobe stop perpetual licences. I mean: renting software means that you can't use it if you don't pay the rent.
What about a stand-alone package that would convert any layered etc PSD or TIF, and convert it to a flat TIF or JPEG - which could then be edited by pretty much any other editor? Is that the sort of end solution we're talking about? Or do we really mean we just don't want a rent-only model? Frankly, that's what I'd prefer - a choice of rental of perpetual licence, with an option to update up to three versions ago, which is what we used to have.
I trusted Adobe to be improving Photoshop for a long time, but their behavior over the last few years has eroded the trust. Now they are saying "rent me and we promise to make it better". Hmmm.
Yes, I agree with that. The improvements from CS5->CS6->CC seem to have got smaller each time. And once they've got people committed to pay anyway, what further incentive is there on Adobe to innovate? Not much.
-
Yes, I agree with that. The improvements from CS5->CS6->CC seem to have got smaller each time. And once they've got people committed to pay anyway, what further incentive is there on Adobe to innovate? Not much.
Yes, but the CC model is going to be only small improvements but more frequent so the engineers don't have to wait for a big bundled release to get new functionality out. Once the functionality is ready, it is released without having to wait on other functionality to be ready for release. The CC model will be ever evolving. That's why I don't understand people comparing CS6 to CC. The CC releases will continue to occur over the following years, there is not just one CC release.
-
I find it interesting that many of the plug-in software makers are now resorting to stand-alones where they used to be accessed only through Photoshop. One hold-out was AlienSkin and I noticed their latest Snap 4 plugin is now a standalone. OnOne has done much the same (PerfectPhoto Suite) as has Topaz (photoFXlab) with their own stand-alone software packs. Plus, Corel has begun to implement former PS plugins into their PaintShop Pro X6 program as well - albeit with some issues.
Possibly they see the need to perpetuate their software for people who do not want to sign on for CC monthly payments, higher prices (future and now), and no perpetual license (i.e. vaporware) as a need for the stand-alones.
Personally, I wouldn't care if Adobe went bust or any other software maker either. Ones who have non-perpetual licensed software might though.
SG
-
Yes, but the CC model is going to be only small improvements but more frequent so the engineers don't have to wait for a big bundled release to get new functionality out. Once the functionality is ready, it is released without having to wait on other functionality to be ready for release. The CC model will be ever evolving. That's why I don't understand people comparing CS6 to CC. The CC releases will continue to occur over the following years, there is not just one CC release.
Well, facts don't bear that out so far:
CS3 April 2007
CS4 Oct 2008 (18 months later)
CS5 April 2010 (18 months later)
CS6 May 2012 (25 months later - CS5.1 doesn't count as a release as it had virtually nothing in it for Photoshop)
CC June 2013 (13 months later)
Allowing for CS5 being 7 months later than the regular pattern, it's been every 18 months. The subscription model was started in May 2011.
Are we to believe that from now on, 2 and a half years after the subscription model started, we'll get faster releases in future?
And I mean not just more frequent releases of fewer new features, but a faster rate of development?
I don't think so!
And why on earth would they, when they've no financial incentive to do so? It doesn't seem likely that they will increase their rate of development. And I would argue that since CS4 the rate of innovation in Photoshop has already been falling, release by release (or year by year if you prefer).
-
I mean: renting software means that you can't use it if you don't pay the rent.
Correct.
What about a stand-alone package that would convert any layered etc PSD or TIF, and convert it to a flat TIF or JPEG
What prevents you from doing that export with PS CC?
Moving files backwards from Photoshop CC (Updated) (http://davecrossworkshops.com/2013/05/10/moving-files-backwards-photoshop-cc/)
-
With the numbers of sales between CS6 perpetual and CS6 subscription, they can not be thinking CC could possibly succeed.
The question is, what is Adobe up to?
Tanking stocks to buy back control?
May not be working as well as planed?
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1748712-insiders-are-selling-adobe-systems
Does this send a message?
We may know more by the middle of this month.
-
What about a stand-alone package that would convert any layered etc PSD or TIF, and convert it to a flat TIF or JPEG - which could then be edited by pretty much any other editor? Is that the sort of end solution we're talking about? Or do we really mean we just don't want a rent-only model? Frankly, that's what I'd prefer - a choice of rental of perpetual licence, with an option to update up to three versions ago, which is what we used to have.
What prevents you from doing that export with PS CC?
People are talking about:
An end solution is one where you could still edit your work after ceasing to subscribe. No more updates obviously, but no being left high and dry either.
In other words, when you can no longer do that export from PS CC, because your subscription has run out, what about an "end solution" that allows you at least to convert your PS files to a form that other editors can read.
Most editors can read tifs and jpegs, but not necessarily layered tifs, or PSD files.
-
People are talking about:In other words, when you can no longer do that export from PS CC, because your subscription has run out, what about an "end solution" that allows you at least to convert your PS files to a form that other editors can read.
Most editors can read tifs and jpegs, but not necessarily layered tifs, or PSD files.
Layered PSD/TIFF files have to be saved in a specific way for even LR to display correctly. This 'maximise compatibility' method includes a flattened composite layer so programmes that cannot parse PS layers can correctly display the file. So if you set the maximise compatibility box in prefs to always, your files will always be usable [though not fully editable of PS specific features like adjustment layers/smart objects etc] by other software.
(http://i.stack.imgur.com/LWngw.png)
-
In other words, when you can no longer do that export from PS CC, because your subscription has run out...
Knowing your subscription was going to run out, you wouldn't export everything from PS CC because... ?
Knowing your subscription would run out, you wouldn't habitually export work you considered complete because... ?
It puzzles me simply because I do export unsharpened tiff + full size jpeg + web size jpeg + watermarked web size jpeg -- and it seems really really easy.
-
Does this send a message?
It says that Adobe, which closed at 55.60/share on Fri (and had an intraday high of 56.10) is just off the 52 week high of 57.99 (the 52 week trading range was 34.94-57.99). So, that's why some insiders decided to take some profits (note the insiders still hold a lot of shares). Heck I sold several hundred shares at near the 52 week high...(note these are shares I bought at an effective price/share of about 26/share in 2011 for a tidy profit).
Reading tea leaves requires knowing something about tea. Insider trading is only one factor to look at when evaluating stock (and not a particularly good one unless you see a ton of sales or buys).
Also note that for every sale, somebody was a buyer...so there were plenty of buyers in line to buy those shares but it did tend to suppress the price/share a bit. Personally, I would not be a buyer right now...but some investors were...
Adobe's 4th quarter results are due Dec 12th...so we'll have more info to digest then.
-
Knowing your subscription was going to run out, you wouldn't export everything from PS CC because... ?
Knowing your subscription would run out, you wouldn't habitually export work you considered complete because... ?
It puzzles me simply because I do export unsharpened tiff + full size jpeg + web size jpeg + watermarked web size jpeg -- and it seems really really easy.
Yes I agree with you. But look back at the posts asking for an "end solution", and I was trying to probe what they meant.
What I personally find more worrying is watching the Adobe CC forum at http://forums.adobe.com/community/creative_cloud?view=discussions (http://forums.adobe.com/community/creative_cloud?view=discussions). There seem to be a lot of people claiming that their subscriptions get blocked (and they are locked out of their software) for no fault of their own, apparently. For example the system won't let them change their credit card (after they've changed their card because of Adobe's security breach). Or there is some other payment glitch caused at the Adobe side. I've certainly experienced Adobe account pages that perpetually respond "There seems to be a fault at our end. Try again later" (though I've not been locked out of my software yet). It would appear that Adobe's billing and payment systems are a bit flakey, which is worrying if your continued use of software depends on them.
I also reckon that a tied rental income reduces the incentive on Adobe to innovate. I've taken out the subscription offer because of the limited time of availability, but frankly Photoshop CC has little in it of use to me that wasn't in my Photoshop CS5. Unless Adobe provide a significant level of enhancement over the next year, I may not renew my subscription in a year's time.
-
Knowing your subscription was going to run out, you wouldn't export everything from PS CC because... ?
Knowing your subscription would run out, you wouldn't habitually export work you considered complete because... ?
It puzzles me simply because I do export unsharpened tiff + full size jpeg + web size jpeg + watermarked web size jpeg -- and it seems really really easy.
I can certainly agree when it comes to PSCC at present. But Indesign is a much bigger issue.
-
Obviously, without vendor independent formats you're locked-in to whatever the vendor wants to do.
-
But look back at the posts asking for an "end solution", and I was trying to probe what they meant.
I think you'll find that all they really meant was that they don't want subscription :-)
I also reckon that a tied rental income reduces the incentive on Adobe to innovate. ... Unless Adobe provide a significant level of enhancement over the next year, I may not renew my subscription in a year's time.
Given that you'll consider stopping payment in ~half the previous upgrade period, and actually could cancel before then, it seems the incentive has become more immediate.
-
Given that you'll consider stopping payment in ~half the previous upgrade period, and actually could cancel before then, it seems the incentive has become more immediate.
Oh, to think that Adobe will be shaking with fear, rushing out new enhancements just becasue I might cancel my subscription!
Nice thought, but somehow I reckon not. Inertia keeps people subscribing - you have to make a conscious decision to cancel. But with the old (perpetual licence) model, you have to make a conscious decision to buy an upgrade, and the supplier has to do something to motivate people to make that decision.
In a year's time, I rather suspect that Photoshop CC will have changed little if at all. But will I have the courage of my convictions to cancel my subscription - cast myself adrift? Or will I just hang in there, it's only $10 a month, in the hope that something turns up to make it worth while? I'm sure Adobe calculate that I'll hang in there (assuming everything hangs on my personal decision, that is!)
That's why I'm expecting Adobe's rate of innovation to slow down. Their stock price is hardly putting pressure on them. But it rarely does, until it's too late.
-
Those expectations seem no more than pointless speculation to me, so I'll leave you to it.
-
Does this send a message?
...
We may know more by the middle of this month.
"Adobe exited Q4 with 1 million 439 thousand paid Creative Cloud subscriptions, an increase of 402 thousand when compared to the number of subscriptions as of the end of Q3 fiscal year 2013, and enterprise adoption of Creative Cloud was stronger than expected."
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/pdfs/201312/Q413Earnings.pdf
-
Yep - they did good by the investors for sure! http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57615538-92/adobe-stock-hits-all-time-high-on-subscription-shift/ (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57615538-92/adobe-stock-hits-all-time-high-on-subscription-shift/)
-
Yep - they did good by the investors for sure! http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57615538-92/adobe-stock-hits-all-time-high-on-subscription-shift/ (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57615538-92/adobe-stock-hits-all-time-high-on-subscription-shift/)
Those are pretty good numbers. Looks like Adobe won't be changing their minds regarding CC anytime soon. So far I am pleased with my subscription.
-
Same here
-
Have folks seen this?
Adobe profit slides as product sales decline
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/adobe-profit-slides-as-product-sales-decline-2013-12-12-16485312
-
Expected,normal and a good thing long term. Of course immediate profit numbers are going to be obliterated when they have gone to a long game subscription. Investors understand that and also know its going to keep getting better faster. Stock is doing great after the report came out and for good reason they are setup for much better long term profits.http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57615538-92/adobe-stock-hits-all-time-high-on-subscription-shift/
-
Have folks seen this?
Adobe profit slides as product sales decline
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/adobe-profit-slides-as-product-sales-decline-2013-12-12-16485312
Adobe have always said they will take a hit from lost product sales while they force customers to subscribe. Investors currently accept their projections that revenues will recover by 2015 or so , and they factor in less risk and the option to cut cost if revenues fall short.
-
Have folks seen this?
Adobe profit slides as product sales decline
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/adobe-profit-slides-as-product-sales-decline-2013-12-12-16485312
That's blatantly obvious. Instead of people purchasing CS7 upgrades at say $250 a pop, they are now paying $10/month...but that monthly payment will be revenue every month, every year without spikes.
-
That's blatantly obvious. Instead of people purchasing CS7 upgrades at say $250 a pop, they are now paying $10/month...but that monthly payment will be revenue every month, every year without spikes.
I believe that for many, the drop is more from a full suite upgrade at 1,000 US$+ every 18 months to 10 US$ per month. I will personally be spending 5 times less on Adobe products.
Those who were not upgrading that often have typically not bought into the subscription model at all.
So Adobe will have to milk corporate customers big way to recover the revenue lost from independant users... and the big spenders typically have purchasing watchdogs who will engage in tough negotiations with Adobe... so that probably won't work as well as planned either.
I understand that investors are still waiting... but that is no garantee that the Adode projections are right, only that we cannot demonstrate yet that they may be wrong. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
-
no garantee that the Adode projections are right, only that we cannot demonstrate yet that they may be wrong.
We can also demonstrate that the doomsday predictions made in this forum have repeatedly been wrong.
I'm still hopeful that most of us can come to agree the future hasn't happened yet; or alternatively drift into a discussion of block time :-)
-
I'm still hopeful that most of us can come to agree the future hasn't happened yet
Some of it has by now.
Jeremy
-
We can also demonstrate that the doomsday predictions made in this forum have repeatedly been wrong.
What predictions are you referring to?
The ones I am aware of were:
- Impact on Adobe business: we can see this already,
- Initial pricing out of line: Adobe has confirmed this by proposing several rounds of discount, the endless extension being a clear proof that even that has not succeeded to bring on board as many customers as tactically expected,
- Low adoption of the subscription model among independent users: this is IMHO a reality.
In my view, those predictions, that even a 15 years old could have made, have proven absolutely correct.
As a reminder, this is coming from a PS/BR/LR CC customer.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
What Adobe really need to do urgently is develop Lightroom as a genuine perpetual front end to Photoshop CS6.
Then those of us who are genuine amateurs would only need to upgrade LR every couple of years to stay current in terms of cameras, lenses, LR enhancements and continue to use our existing CS6 installations (perhaps decreasingly) for the parts that LR does not yet reach.
Just one wee problem - Adobe might not make so much money so, while the company continues to place profits ahead of customer satisfaction, such a scenario may be unlikely.
-
What Adobe really need to do urgently is develop Lightroom as a genuine perpetual front end to Photoshop CS6.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but can you expand a bit? In what way is Lightroom not a "genuine perpetual front end to Photoshop CS6" now?
Then those of us who are genuine amateurs would only need to upgrade LR every couple of years to stay current in terms of cameras, lenses, LR enhancements and continue to use our existing CS6 installations (perhaps decreasingly) for the parts that LR does not yet reach.
Well, I think I'm a "genuine amateur" but I upgrade LR every time, as significant new features are added to most updates. And the update price is relatively low.
Just one wee problem - Adobe might not make so much money so, while the company continues to place profits ahead of customer satisfaction, such a scenario may be unlikely.
All companies put profits ahead of customer satisfaction. That's their function. A company's (only) role is to make a return on the investment of the shareholders while operating within the law. To do that they make money (usually) out of some trading function, which means that some degree of customer satisfaction is necessary, or in any market where customers have a choice they'll go some place else. But a properly functioning company creates only as much customer satisfaction as is necessary to maximise return on investment.
Sorry if that's patronising, but I think sometimes people expect companies to be too nice.
-
I have always looked at "amateur" from it's Latin root of " for the love of it". I don't know how "genuine" enhances that :-)
What one buys or upgrades is a personal workflow and economic decision. Mine has always been to remain current.
While I understand the concerns (and have voiced them) over Adobe's Photographer Package ($9.99), I do not believe Adobe is financially stupid. If, in the future, they drastically raise the price or make Lightroom rental only, it will drive their customers away and put them in a "death spiral". While I may not have much faith in people(management), I do in economics and profit motive :-)
John
-
Sorry if that's patronising, but I think sometimes people expect companies to be too nice.
I am guessing that you are one of our much-valued and respected "transatlantic cousins", Simon. But, here in UK, it is a well-established and frequently proven business principle that the company that carefully researches customer needs - and then sets out to accurately meet those needs - will, in the long term, be the most successful. Unfortunately there are odd exceptions, particularly in oligopolistic situations such as power suppliers, but, generally in a mature economy, paying rather more attention to customers than is currently evident with Adobe does pay dividends (pun intended).
I have always looked at "amateur" from it's Latin root of " for the love of it". I don't know how "genuine" enhances that :-)
There are many "faux amateurs" out there, John. By genuine I simply meant those of us who try to keep our hobby completely free of the influence of money-earning. That's not, in any way, to denigrate those who try to make a shilling or two on the side - merely to suggest that their criteria for assessing the value and cost-effectiveness of software packages might be somewhat different from ours.
-
....
While I understand the concerns (and have voiced them) over Adobe's Photographer Package ($9.99), I do not believe Adobe is financially stupid. If, in the future, they drastically raise the price or make Lightroom rental only, it will drive their customers away and put them in a "death spiral"....
John
I suspect they will do as every other company does once they raise the price, they'll offer another "Intro offer" for 'new subscribers' while those who are still in the contract are stuck with the higher price. At some point people will bail, and then the offers to "Come back for $9.99/mo." will start all over with a contract that balloons and subsidizes the first year intro's commitment - or an expensive price to opt out of the contract. Think cable, satellite, and cell services ongoing plans and offers.
Just need good bait...
What would be interesting if no one signed on for this subscription, price-hikes, and contract. Then what would they do? Actually, if Adobe priced PS to put in into everyone's home for $20, might shut down piracy and move more product as well. This model may even perpetuate piracy worse than before - if it already hasn't been cracked since they also fear their code got stolen along with the credit cards.
Was interesting to read the CEO's "Everything is wonderful" comments to the shareholders in one link above, and then the second link one from Marketwatch showed the decline with marketing (their scheme) costing them serious cash. I don't know, but if they only have 1+ million subscribers in the past 9 months, that's a far cry from the 38-100 million credit cards lost.
SG
-
Sorry if that's patronising, but I think sometimes people expect companies to be too nice.
Some companies are nice ..., and benefit all stakeholders (more balanced than lopsided).
Cheers,
Bart
-
All companies put profits ahead of customer satisfaction. That's their function.
I wouldn't want you to be my doctor. If a company does not satisfy their customers, they soon will have neither customers or profit.
-
... a well-established and frequently proven business principle that the company that carefully researches customer needs - and then sets out to accurately meet those needs - will, in the long term, be the most successful.
Different customers are not equally profitable.
Perhaps the enterprise customers bring a lot more profit to Adobe.
-
I suspect they will do as every other company does once they raise the price, they'll offer another "Intro offer" for 'new subscribers' while those who are still in the contract are stuck with the higher price. At some point people will bail, and then the offers to "Come back for $9.99/mo." will start all over with a contract that balloons and subsidizes the first year intro's commitment - or an expensive price to opt out of the contract. Think cable, satellite, and cell services ongoing plans and offers.
Just need good bait...
What would be interesting if no one signed on for this subscription, price-hikes, and contract. Then what would they do? Actually, if Adobe priced PS to put in into everyone's home for $20, might shut down piracy and move more product as well. This model may even perpetuate piracy worse than before - if it already hasn't been cracked since they also fear their code got stolen along with the credit cards.
Was interesting to read the CEO's "Everything is wonderful" comments to the shareholders in one link above, and then the second link one from Marketwatch showed the decline with marketing (their scheme) costing them serious cash. I don't know, but if they only have 1+ million subscribers in the past 9 months, that's a far cry from the 38-100 million credit cards lost.
SG
Unfortunately, some of us actually have income to be made from our photography so we don't have time to play games with Adobe. Right now, its a great deal for $9.99 a month. If Adobe chooses to raise their monthly rate to a point that it makes it financially not feasible, I'll look at alternatives. For now, I don't see the need for an alternative.
-
Some companies are nice ..., and benefit all stakeholders (more balanced than lopsided).
Cheers,
Bart
Some...but not many. I bet every company out there has a pissed off set of customers. Take Apple for instance, probably one of the most successful companies today yet there is a huge following of Apple haters. The same for Microsoft, Adobe, GM...you name it, there are haters.
Do you know of such a company that cherishes their customers more than their shareholders?
-
Do you know of such a company that cherishes their customers more than their shareholders?
There is no conflict between customers and shareholders, at least in the long run. A company's duty, as has been pointed out, is to make money for the people or institutions who/which own it. Any company achieves that function best by pleasing its customers, who provide its money.
Companies which fail to grasp this fact, and lean too far in either direction, go bust. Capitalism: it really is that simple.
Jeremy
(yes, yes, state intervention, banks, huge building societies, etc, excepted: but they're excepted from capitalism, too)
-
I wouldn't want you to be my doctor.
If you want to make an analogy with US style for-profit healthcare; it would be as-if we were charged separately each time we cropped the photo or adjusted the exposure, but only discovered how much we were being charged a month later when we were billed -- and it just so happened that the photoshop "doctors" had recommended more-profitable procedures more often than equally effective less-profitable procedures.
Way way off topic -- Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us (http://healthland.time.com/why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/)
-
At the moment Adobe says that Lightroom will not be part of CC...
At the moment the price for Photoshop CC and Lightroom5 is 10$ ( 13 €) a month...
Abobe has said that if you go for the 10$ offer that combination will exist now and in the future if you stay on the train.- let us hope they can be trusted on this and that Lightroom will not be part of CC
But I would not suprise me if next year the price will rise to 15$ .....etc etc.
In using the 10$ offer you will be dependent on Adobe in two ways- your Lightroom catalogue and the possible CC-psd files that cannot be opened in older versions.
It will take some hard work to make your files suited for different software if you want to leave Adobe.
Also i do not read about any real improvement in photoshop CC; Is the Lightroom5/photoshopCC-ACR Raw engine significantly better? than LR4?
So I will stick to Photoshop CS6 ( already payed - perpetual license) and maybe use lightroom5 - standalone ( 90 euro -perpetual license) only if the Raw engine suits me better.
Since there is not much new in Photoshop i save the 1e year 13*12-90= 66 €
-
Some...but not many. I bet every company out there has a pissed off set of customers. Take Apple for instance, probably one of the most successful companies today yet there is a huge following of Apple haters. The same for Microsoft, Adobe, GM...you name it, there are haters.
You know what they say, if you make a decision and half the people are unhappy and half are happy, you got it right.
Do you know of such a company that cherishes their customers more than their shareholders?
In the USA, businesses have a legal fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders.
-
There is no conflict between customers and shareholders, at least in the long run. A company's duty, as has been pointed out, is to make money for the people or institutions who/which own it. Any company achieves that function best by pleasing its customers, who provide its money.
Companies which fail to grasp this fact, and lean too far in either direction, go bust. Capitalism: it really is that simple.
Jeremy
(yes, yes, state intervention, banks, huge building societies, etc, excepted: but they're excepted from capitalism, too)
Yes, but does the company strive to satisfy every customer and at what expense. I think most companies strive to maximize revenue and profits by satisfying the customer base that maximizes those aspects. A company thst caters to everyone satisfies no one.
Walmart does not attempt to be a high end fashion store and high end fashion customers shun Walmart. Does this mean Walmart is going belly up...far from it.
-
You know what they say, if you make a decision and half the people are unhappy and half are happy, you got it right.
I guess it was tongue in cheek, but that line of thought is IMHO one of the major problem of our societies.
Putting decisiveness over rightness in decision making is manly but stupid.
It is always better to delay decision making rather than taking the wrong decision quickly.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
It is always better to delay decision making rather than taking the wrong decision quickly.
No, it depends: the costs of making the wrong decision may be less than the costs of delaying the decision -- fail fast can be an excellent tactic.
-
I guess it was tongue in cheek, but that line of thought is IMHO one of the major problem of our societies.
Putting decisiveness over rightness in decision making is manly but stupid.
It is always better to delay decision making rather than taking the wrong decision quickly.
Cheers,
Bernard
It was tongue in cheek. However sometimes it is just differing opinions, not a matter of righteousness. Or, it is a matter of "trade offs" and the only way to move forward is to only help some, while you really want to help all
When give the opportunity...and lack of sufficient information...it is better to delay and study more. When you don't have the luxury of time someone need to make the call.
Frankly, this is all interesting, but I doubt little to do with the Adobe activities.
John
-
Frankly, this is all interesting, but I doubt little to do with the Adobe activities.
John,
Yep...
Cheers,
Bernard
-
No, it depends: the costs of making the wrong decision may be less than the costs of delaying the decision -- fail fast can be an excellent tactic.
Totally agree. Paralysis by analysis could quicky make a company obsolete. Sometimes it is much better to make a decision, quickly discover it is not quite right, correct the plan and carry on.
-
I am guessing that you are one of our much-valued and respected "transatlantic cousins", Simon. But, here in UK, it is a well-established and frequently proven business principle that the company that carefully researches customer needs - and then sets out to accurately meet those needs - will, in the long term, be the most successful. Unfortunately there are odd exceptions, particularly in oligopolistic situations such as power suppliers, but, generally in a mature economy, paying rather more attention to customers than is currently evident with Adobe does pay dividends (pun intended).
Well, on my side of the Atlantic (the Eastern side) as on the other side, it is usually the case with public corporations that their primary duty is to make a return to their investors. Some companies - often non-profit companies - have specific aims to provide a particular service (maybe a stated public good) as their primary role, but this is not the case in general with public companies. That's not venal capitalism, nor is it cynicism, it's the law.
In order to maximise that return to investors, generally speaking (in a competitive market) companies find that they need to satisfy their customers. As you say, successful companies are very often the ones that satisfy their customers the most. But if they lose sight of profits in pursuit of customer satisfaction, they won't be around to provide that customer satisfaction for very long. Either they go bust, or their shareholders will punish them, possibly replacing the management, or leaving the company open to a take-over by someone that will make profit a higher priority.
You may think that's cynical, but it's not: it's how business works.
The issue here is not whether Adobe is putting profit ahead of customer satisfaction: of course they are, and so they should.
Rather, the issue is whether they're doing it right and providing sufficient customer satisfaction to maximise profit, or are damaging customer satisfaction by mismanagement or overcharging in a way that will not maximise profitability but reduce it.
I agree with all you say about researching and meeting customer needs. But making a profit comes first, or you can't meet customer needs for very long.
-
Totally agree. Paralysis by analysis could quicky make a company obsolete. Sometimes it is much better to make a decision, quickly discover it is not quite right, correct the plan and carry on.
Yes, trial and error can sometimes work but it is a case by case thing.
Always prioritizing quick decision making over reflexion is not a suitable standard policy.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Either they go bust, or their shareholders will punish them, possibly replacing the management, or leaving the company open to a take-over by someone that will make profit a higher priority.
Yes, you are of course correct.
One caveat though is that successful companies are typically led by boards who focus on operational leaders whose priority is to maximize the integral of profit over time. With some constraints of course, like never generating loss for too long in the short term, etc...
Subscription models clearly have the potential to achieve this. But this potential will only be converted into business if enough customers of Adobe perceive value for them, which is at best unclear today, not to say the opposite.
Indeed, we live in a world where the perception of customers plays an important role on their purchasing decisions. One increasingly important aspect impacting this is the perception that large corporations are not fair in their dealings, especially in their dealings with smaller customers. This perceived lack of fairness - Adobe would be using its dominant position to lock people in an endless dependency position by forcing them to pay to remain able to work on their IP - may be the most important issue Adobe is facing with their subscription proposal.
And this is issue is IMHO impacting enough that it severly threatens the actual long term business potential of their current offerings.
Each additional discount that they propose only makes the tough situation they have put themselves in more obvious and raises red flags among customers who may not have understood the situation otherwise. It has become a vicious circle already.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
This perceived lack of fairness - Adobe would be using its dominant position to lock people in an endless dependency position by forcing them to pay to remain able to work on their IP - may be the most important issue Adobe is facing with their subscription proposal.
I imagine there are smaller customers who have little choice but to use CC because their clients have Enterprise Term-based License Agreements with Adobe and expect to exchange the latest formats. Still, those smaller customers don't blindly put on the golden handcuffs.
The other smaller customers, who are not forced by their clients to use the latest functionality, do have other options -- most obviously using DNG Converter to keep CS6 current with new cameras.
"This performance was driven by continued strong adoption of Creative Cloud for individuals, and from Creative Cloud for team subscriptions – which grew 62% quarter-over quarter. The special Photography offer launched in September helped drive new customer acquisition.
...
In the year we closed more than 1,000 Creative ETLA contracts of greater than $100,000, with more than 80 contracts over $1 million. As a reminder, ETLAs are generally 3 year contracts."
pdf Adobe Q4 and FY2013 Earnings Call Script (http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/investor-relations/PDFs/ADBE-Q4FY13-Earnings-Script.pdf)
-
As an aside, what happens when new cameras come put and Adobe has to update LR5 and CS6 to see RAW? If they only update the CC version, that's going to put more pressure on the "perpetual" users. You won't be able to update your camera to a newer model. That will also hurt camera manufacturer sales to a degree. No?
-
As far as I understand, Adobe plan to continue providing bug-fix updates for CS6 (http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=39&platform=Windows) but plan not to provide new functionality or new camera updates for CS6 (because CS6 can use DNG, and Adobe do plan to provide new camera updates for the free Adobe RAW to DNG Converter (http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5694)).
So there isn't more pressure on the "perpetual" users, and you will be able to update your camera to a newer model, and it won't hurt camera manufacturer sales to a degree.
-
In that respect, it's no different than it's always been with regard to support for previous versions and ACR updates.
-
What about Lightroom?
-
What about LR?
As far as I understand, LR will continue to have update releases (http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5693) -- bug fixes, functionality and new cameras.
Furthermore (http://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/kb/lightroom-creative-cloud-faq.html#Are%20there%20any%20features%20of%20Lightroom%20available%20exclusively%20to%20Creative%20Cloud%20members?) -- Q: Are there any features of Lightroom available exclusively to Creative Cloud members? A: No.
-
As an aside, what happens when new cameras come put and Adobe has to update LR5 and CS6 to see RAW? If they only update the CC version, that's going to put more pressure on the "perpetual" users. You won't be able to update your camera to a newer model. That will also hurt camera manufacturer sales to a degree. No?
Shouldn't be an issue if one uses the proprietary RAW image converters of the companies to make the images a TIFF (i.e Canon's "Digital Photo Professional Version," or Nikon's "View NX2" or "Capture NX2") which do a far better job than Adobe's ACR since both of those also use the camera's RGB profile and their internal photo settings that Adobe does not use on importing.
I prefer Capture NX2 as the import engine for Nikon since it reads the camera's settings, and uses the NIK "Control Points" that Adobe does not use which can correct for a lot of color imbalances. Even their make-up brush tool seems to be better than Adobe's which makes the spotted area plastic like (too clean) where the Nikon spot looks to have a bit of texture remaining.
Using the above manufacturer's RAW converters, one could probably go back to Photoshop version 1 and keep using that. Just keep using PS as an editor and not a converter.
SG
-
I would like to see adobe fix photoshop so that it uses more than one core of a processor. I recently did a pano and was using 18 gb of Ram and only 10 % of the cpu on one processor out of eight can't they fix this and make it use more of the cpu functions?
Pierre
-
Adobe has extended the $9.99 a month CC & Lightroom offer until February 28, 2014 for existing Photoshop licensees. I was waiting until the end of the year to decide what to do; now I have a couple of more months....
-
For me, I'll switch to Corel Paint(or the like) which supports PSD files before having to go CC.
With rentals, First it's $10, then next year MAYBE the same, and then an increase, and another, etc. Sounds like the Cable or phone business. They rope you in for a year or two then gradually raise it up...after you're locked in, its hard to get out. Its like HOA fees.
I do wish the majority of users were against this so the concept wouldn't even take off. But of course there are plenty of those that can't see themselves paying so much for software up front. And other reasons, so I can see it tempt and make sense for some. So it is a oportunity for them, and great way to have Adobe push everyone else with them. Adobe is more and more getting into the security business, locking more and more things up in their vaults :-)
-
Adobe has extended the $9.99 a month CC & Lightroom offer until February 28, 2014 for existing Photoshop licensees. I was waiting until the end of the year to decide what to do; now I have a couple of more months....
do you have a link to this info?...i'm not seeing it on the adobe site...
thanks...
-
For me, I'll switch to Corel Paint(or the like) which supports PSD files before having to go CC.
With rentals, First it's $10, then next year MAYBE the same, and then an increase, and another, etc. Sounds like the Cable or phone business. They rope you in for a year or two then gradually raise it up...after you're locked in, its hard to get out. Its like HOA fees.
I do wish the majority of users were against this so the concept wouldn't even take off. But of course there are plenty of those that can't see themselves paying so much for software up front. And other reasons, so I can see it tempt and make sense for some. So it is a oportunity for them, and great way to have Adobe push everyone else with them. Adobe is more and more getting into the security business, locking more and more things up in their vaults :-)
One thing you are forgetting is there really is no alternative to PS thst provides all the functionality. Corel is still a wannabe and until it gets serious, PS is really the only choice unless you want to go backwards in your post processing. For me, I don't want to wade into the less powerful, unknown applications when I have the best at $10/ month. Just does not make any sense to look elsewhere.
-
What tools do you find in PS that Corel doesn't have? I have used Corel decades ago, and I know it to be rather powerful and with some tool sets original from PS.
Usually we don't want to work outside of a program that we have grown so accustomed too, but I think its worth it if you don't want Cloud software.
I think it takes a bit of effort on user part to not accept cloud software. It is worth my efforts if you care not to support such programs. We give up so many rights, and I just can't see this being a good thing in the long run. Once you are renting, you give up all control how you use it. That's my personal reason.
If Corel is a wanna be, Like it really is in Aftershot raw dev... it wont take long for them to see the potential and market against.
There are other Photo editors that are very good, and the more reason for them to further develop the programs. I can't see why other editors can't duplicate a lot of the old Adobe features.
-
There are other Photo editors that are very good, and the more reason for them to further develop the programs. I can't see why other editors can't duplicate a lot of the old Adobe features.
I think Gimp, as it approaches Gimp 3 with full GEGL integration, is moving up in the world. It promises to be able to do things that Photoshop never thought of. Whether it will withstand the demands of commercial production use is something we will have to see.
-
Quote from: dds on December 22, 2013, 11:46:45 PM
Adobe has extended the $9.99 a month CC & Lightroom offer until February 28, 2014 for existing Photoshop licensees. I was waiting until the end of the year to decide what to do; now I have a couple of more months....
do you have a link to this info?...i'm not seeing it on the adobe site...
thanks...
Morris, I got an email from Adobe with this offer on the 19th. It looks just like the one I got before (that ended December 31). However, in the fine print, the new email says that the offer ends Feb. 28, 2014. Interesting, no? There is a link to the "Join CC" site that seems to have a tracking number associated with it. And they also give a phone number: 800-585-0774.
--David
-
I have heard great things about GIMP, just not familiar with it , YET.
But I know Corel was very powerful with direct PSD support! I remember it having powerful "nozzle" feature of painting textures and samples in random order to fill in grass, and such.. Color correction tools were also good from what I used it for back then. I have the current version as I already do yearly subscription with most of my SW :-) I should give it a go. But as of now I am capping up space on my 240GB SSD and need to do something about that. Cheers!
-
But I know Corel was very powerful with direct PSD support!
Depends on what your idea of 'support' is. I tried a demo a few days ago for grins, didn't take but a few minutes to see it's limited depending on what you desire from legacy PS files with layers (doesn't matter if they are PSD or TIFFs). The product opens a PSD with layers but there's a lot more to the story than that! What I did in Photoshop is make a PSD with two layers. Both had blending modes. This is proprietary Adobe processing. The layered file opens in CP but for all practical (many) purposes, might as well be flattened. I can click on the individual layers but one should consider them 'baked', you can't for example revert the blending mode (CP see's them as Normal which makes sense). Layered files with pixels that have some edits will migrate OK, you can continue to retouch them. But any blening modes are simply uneditiable as they were in Photoshop. Take a layer in Photoshop, set the blend to Overlay. Open that file a year later, reset it back to Normal or update that to any other blend mode. Back to square 1. Not the same in Corel! Path's in Photoshop? Forget about em in Corel, they don't show up. Not sure about Alpha channels, didn't try that. Because frankly, jumping ship is going to hurt big time assuming you are using Photoshop to even half it's capability, those capabilities are largely proprietary. They were the day you started using Photshop just like the Reports you can build in Quicken is proprietary to that product.
-
Quote from: dds on December 22, 2013, 11:46:45 PM
Adobe has extended the $9.99 a month CC & Lightroom offer until February 28, 2014 for existing Photoshop licensees. I was waiting until the end of the year to decide what to do; now I have a couple of more months....
do you have a link to this info?...i'm not seeing it on the adobe site...
thanks...
Morris, I got an email from Adobe with this offer on the 19th. It looks just like the one I got before (that ended December 31). However, in the fine print, the new email says that the offer ends Feb. 28, 2014. Interesting, no? There is a link to the "Join CC" site that seems to have a tracking number associated with it. And they also give a phone number: 800-585-0774.
--David
ok, thanks David...I wonder why it isn't on the Adobe website. And I have CS3/5/6...and I never received an email about a change to the dates...is this just Adobe being coy?...
-
Because of multiple systems I have used Max compatibility mode, but yes those incompatibilities are there. I don't find it too critical. The time you take to figure out what you did in those layers, you can recreate them, perhaps with fresh eyes to not repeat the same method. Sometimes I think... yes I might lose some things, but how often do I want to revisit a file years back and do the same edits or tweak to it? It maybe a nice idea to revisit a file with a new approach. but to do the same isn't that important to me.
As far as paths go, I remember Corel being superior in ways in Pathes, as it integrated with Corel Draw and has multiple import export capabilities they both use. I would look into that more if its important. Corel has a very powerful use of paths.
-
Because of multiple systems I have used Max compatibility mode, but yes those incompatibilities are there. I don't find it too critical. The time you take to figure out what you did in those layers, you can recreate them, perhaps with fresh eyes to not repeat the same method. Sometimes I think... yes I might lose some things, but how often do I want to revisit a file years back and do the same edits or tweak to it? It maybe a nice idea to revisit a file with a new approach. but to do the same isn't that important to me.
As far as paths go, I remember Corel being superior in ways in Pathes, as it integrated with Corel Draw and has multiple import export capabilities they both use. I would look into that more if its important. Corel has a very powerful use of paths.
The important point is, a lot of the processing in those layers is and always will be proprietary. Let's not give the impression that you can just purchase Corel and you've got everything squared away just as you did in Photoshop. As for Paths, again, we're talking about taking legacy PS files into a new product. Doesn't matter if Corel's path's are superior, if you're migrating work from Adobe and they don't show up, that's not helpful for those of you who may have spent time building them and they dont' show up. For that matter, anything can be recreated! If the idea is starting from scratch is justification to jump from Adobe elsewhere, you all should jump ship. This is all about an exit strategy assuming you want out of the CC plan. For me, perhaps for others, just the ability to open a layered PSD but not have full editing of said layers is kind of important to make clear, don't you think? You may feel Corel has powerful PSD support, I'm pointing out, it's not as powerful as some may need and depends on what your idea of support is! I DO find that critical. Not having to suffer such limitations for the current CC monthly fee (which if you do the math, isn't necessarily more than what you'd pay to upgrade every 18 months) is something each has to evaluate. But let's not oversell Corel. There's all kinds of functionality it cannot provide on legacy Photoshop files.
-
But let's not oversell Corel.
why ? healthy competition drives prices down... so let us oversell then.
-
why ? healthy competition drives prices down... so let us oversell then.
I don't care, over selling is over selling. The text Phil wrote is not clear nor accurate. If you take it at face value, it gives the strong impression that moving from Photoshop to Corel has no implications on a workflow. It absolutely does. Now if that matters to you or not is a personal decision. But IF I spent hours building path's in my Photoshop files only to find they are now gone once I've canceled CC and purchased Corel, I'd be pissed (both at Phil but more at myself at taking such a statement at face value).
To increase competition we should ignore the facts of the implications of moving from product to product, no matter the affect on our workflow? I don't think so. IF and WHEN Corel can support all the editing I've done in my legacy files, let's talk. That isn't the case today. And as such, I don't care about competition, I care about deciding if I should stay with CC or move on. After testing Corel, despite Phil's post, it's a deal breaker. You may feel differently but hopefully you'll feel that way based on the reality of "Corel was very powerful with direct PSD support!"
Perhaps Phil makes $8.95 per hour, and recreating functionality in Corel that Photoshop lacks makes makes the $1 per hour net a good deal for him. For me (and I'll not speak for others), sticking with the full functionality of CC at it's reasonable cost per month is a no-brainer in terms of cost per benefit ratio. But that's me.
-
If Corel is so great...why has everyone been using PS?
-
As much as I wish for some PS competition for Photoshop, at its present state Corel wouldn't satisfy most PS users.
Actually, true competitors to the PS CC are PS CS 5 and CS6, and they are pretty good.
The latest move on Adobe's part to extend the $9.99 offer for PS CC is a step in the right direction, and they should just drop the Feb 28 date and make it available at that price even after end of February. If they add in the next year some meaningful features and improvements to PS, more people might try it out.