Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: bjanes on November 11, 2013, 11:35:03 am
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Back in 2008 Mark Dubovoy reviewed (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/Epson_Exhibition_Fiber.shtml) Epson Exhibition Fiber paper favorably and, in an addendum, Michael added comments that were somewhat less favorable and complained about the high pricing of the then new paper. At that time, one of Michael's favorites, Ilford Gold Fiber Silk (GFS) Barytas, was more favorably priced. Both authors were worried that the Epson paper employed optical brighteners that could possibly affect longevity unfavorably.
In 2013 the pricing appears more favorable vis-à-vis the Ilford product as shown in the table below, which lists the current pricing at B&H.
I currently have been using Epson Ultra Premium Luster on my Epson 3880 but want to try something new and have ordered a box of the Epson paper and am also considering GFS. The pricing differential is no longer significant. Any comments would be appreciated. I don't have profiling ability and have been using the Epson profiles, and would appreciate any advice on what profile would be best.
Regards,
Bill
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Hi Bill,
I prefer Ilford GFS - I find it more neutral and if it has any OBA at all, it would appear to be insignificant. I created my own profile, but Ilford's canned profiles for this paper, at least with Epson 4900, are now pretty good. They have improved their profiles substantially over the years. A lot of this is personal taste and I recommend you try a range of photos on both and see which "look and feel" you like better.
Mark
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I also like the Ilford Gold Fiber Silk quite a lot, but I have found that prints are quite fragile, particularly immediately after printing. I use Epson Premium Luster for proofing and experimenting and IGFS for all my final prints for exhibition.
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I also like the Ilford Gold Fiber Silk quite a lot, but I have found that prints are quite fragile, particularly immediately after printing. I use Epson Premium Luster for proofing and experimenting and IGFS for all my final prints for exhibition.
Within a few hours the ink "hardens" on GFS and the inked surface is really very scratch resistant. However, the un-inked borders are never scratch resistant so care is needed handling them.
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Within a few hours the ink "hardens" on GFS and the inked surface is really very scratch resistant. However, the un-inked borders are never scratch resistant so care is needed handling them.
I'd second that, especially the part about the un-inked surface being very prone to showing scuffs and other marks.
It's all subjective, but I think some images look better on GFS, some look better on Epson Exhibition Fiber, and others look best on mat finished papers with either bright or warmer "natural" white points. FWFW I use mostly GFS (but switching to Canson Baryta Photographique), EEF, and Epson Hot Press Bright and Epson Hot Press Natural.
Added - Canson Platine Fibre Rag is also very nice, but I think the surface texture is a bit much for most subjects. Where it works, the paper is excellent. Also, manufacturer profiles for all of the papers I mentioned seem alright on the Epson 7900, especially the EEF profile. I'd assume profiles for other printers would be similarly accurate but YMMV.
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Canson Baryta Photographique and Ilford GFS are pretty much interchangeable. You can use the same profile on both and the prints look really close to identical.
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I prefer the colder whites of the EEF. The GFS was just a tad too warm for color work for my taste.
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I'd second that, especially the part about the un-inked surface being very prone to showing scuffs and other marks.
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Yep, I seen IGFS sheets scratched before I even took them out of the box. It needs to be handled very carefully until it has been printed and dried completely. I generally lay them out to dry for days before handling them further.
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Both authors were worried that the Epson paper employed optical brighteners that could possibly affect longevity unfavorably.
In this case they had the right suspicion. It did worse than any other OBA paper since in Aardenburg Imaging testing. One of the examples where the OBA degradation did not deliver a "natural" paper white in the end but something worse. In the 6 tests the worst example showed the Lab b shifting from something like -5 to +5.7 and all shifted at least 8 Delta E on the paper white. The paper white shifted worse than any of the color patches. To get an idea Hahnemühle Bamboo has a paper white color with b 5.2
The IGFS showed far better paper white constancy in time.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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I did some 17" prints with EEF and I was really pleased with the results. Back then the paper was dirt cheap - I actually think the dealer was trying to unload it after the OBA reports got out. I haven't printed with it since, but I have a friend who still uses it for all his exhibition prints and swears by it. I asked him if he was worried about OBA's and he said he didn't give a ___!
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I'm just now reprinting two images (12x18") on GFS with my 9880 off a 44" roll because the first one's were full of hairline scratches which are most visible through the dark tones (usually dark skies in B&W or dark night images). I've been using GFS for 4 years now and also proof with Epson Lustre.
The hairline scratches coming right off the roll (parallel to the paper path) is a constant issue with this paper and has resulted in a lot of waste in my time using it. The issue only occasionally shows up on 13x19 cut sheets but is ever present on rolls, particularly in the first 5-10 feet.
Does anyone know if the Canson suffers from the same problem?
(edit) - I've been considering other papers such as the exhibition fibre (partially due to epson brushing off all my testing to try to resolve problems with my 4880 because I wasn't using their papers), but haven't yet tried it. I like the look of the GFS but it's such a pain to deal with as it is far more delicate than the lustre (even after letting it dry for a long time), and the constant hairline scratch issue, which is why I'm curious if the Canson is just as delicate.
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I'm just now reprinting two images (12x18") on GFS with my 9880 off a 44" roll because the first one's were full of hairline scratches which are most visible through the dark tones (usually dark skies in B&W or dark night images). I've been using GFS for 4 years now and also proof with Epson Lustre.
The hairline scratches coming right off the roll (parallel to the paper path) is a constant issue with this paper and has resulted in a lot of waste in my time using it. The issue only occasionally shows up on 13x19 cut sheets but is ever present on rolls, particularly in the first 5-10 feet.
Does anyone know if the Canson suffers from the same problem?
(edit) - I've been considering other papers such as the exhibition fibre (partially due to epson brushing off all my testing to try to resolve problems with my 4880 because I wasn't using their papers), but haven't yet tried it. I like the look of the GFS but it's such a pain to deal with as it is far more delicate than the lustre (even after letting it dry for a long time) which is why I'm curious if the Canson is just as delicate.
You may want to check your roll paper settings or roll paper path, because what you are describing is unlikely to be the paper. Paper is normally manufactured in absolutely gigantic rolls, then cut to fit for the size and packaging specs. (Saw it myself in the erstwhile Agfa works at Leverkusen back in the 1950s and this has unlikely changed much over the decades.) The notion that the first five or ten feet of a consumer-sized roll of paper would be systematically scratched from the factory is not credible. The one roll of IGFS I've used in my 4900 has been fine from the get-go. But I normally print on sheets, also fine.
As for drying and hardening time, over-night is the maximum time likely to be necessary save for exceptionally humid conditions. Several hours is usually adequate for normal handling, but non-inked surfaces always need special care.
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This is a problem with the paper and has shown up on my 4880, 9880, and previously a 9900 and 11880 (where I had large prints done in the past) and is most often an issue with a particular black and white panorama with the moon in the sky. The image is 12x48" long and and the hairline scratches although more prone to showing up early in the roll (in that case a 17" roll), do show up randomly and can be anywhere from 1/2 to 4 inches long.
If you do a search you'll find others who have had the same experiences with hairline scratches and as stated above, this was also the experience of the company who did my large format images before I got my own 44" printer.
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Have you raised it with Ilford and gotten any response?
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No I haven't.
After 4 years and probably 40-60 rolls gone through, as well as hearing the experience of others with this paper, I accepted that is it just part of the experience with this paper on rolls. As I said, it almost never shows up on cut sheet (of which I've gone through maybe 20-30 boxes of 50 sheets of 13x19"). With the print I described, roughly 1 in 4 or 5 is discarded/destroyed due to the scratches (people can be particularly picky when paying $950 for a print) and I've sold almost 50 of those now not including the two smaller sizes. Yes occasionally I will get a roll that is clean and clear of these scratches all the way through, but that's a rarity.
It's not now often that much of an issue as I've had plenty of experience with it, but now that I'm (as of August) using rolls wider than 17" and seeing the same thing, I'm interested to hear others experiences with similar paper like the Canson.
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Really very puzzling because the rolls and the sheets are most likely cut from the same paper batches, but I may be incorrect about that. It's unfortunate that you didn't complain to Ilford so that they could either explain it or correct it or both; but as I've said, not something I've noticed, and I've been printing with this stuff since it was first available in Canada.
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I think Epson has a 25% rebate on EEF and some others till the end of the year in the 13x19 size. I bought some, though I continue to use Canson Baryta in the 17x22 size.
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I think Epson has a 25% rebate on EEF and some others till the end of the year in the 13x19 size. I bought some, though I continue to use Canson Baryta in the 17x22 size.
Yes, Epson has a rebate on their SigWorthy papers (and I think EEF is part of that) where you get a discount if you buy 5 packs. There is also currently a Canson rebate (10% off) till end of year (just missed the 20% off rebate by a few days).
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One wonders whether all these sales, combined with the recent upheavals at Ilford Imaging GmBH, combined with an apparent slow-down in the production of new printer models are precursors of the demise of the printing era.
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One wonders whether all these sales, combined with the recent upheavals at Ilford Imaging GmBH, combined with an apparent slow-down in the production of new printer models are precursors of the demise of the printing era.
Not that I know anything but it seems like they very often have sales on paper so that's nothing 'new' although w/ the advent of iPads and the like, there is even less incentive to print (ala mass market (it'd be interesting to see sales figures for low-end printers and CVS kiosk printing)), who knows what the issue w/ Ilford is/was and just like cameras, things have gotten good enough to 'so good' that until there is something disruptive, the camera and printer makers are shuffling deck chairs to introduce 'new and improved' enough to warrant stepping up.
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Not that I know anything but it seems like they very often have sales on paper so that's nothing 'new' although w/ the advent of iPads and the like, there is even less incentive to print (ala mass market (it'd be interesting to see sales figures for low-end printers and CVS kiosk printing)), who knows what the issue w/ Ilford is/was and just like cameras, things have gotten good enough to 'so good' that until there is something disruptive, the camera and printer makers are shuffling deck chairs to introduce 'new and improved' enough to warrant stepping up.
Some paper mills are running at 1/3 of their capacity. Both a bad economy and the change to other media are to blame. There will remain a market for good prints but I expect not all the manufacturers-distributors we know will still be around in 2015.
--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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One wonders whether all these sales, combined with the recent upheavals at Ilford Imaging GmBH, combined with an apparent slow-down in the production of new printer models are precursors of the demise of the printing era.
I sincerely hope not...printing is a hobby I discovered a year ago and with the quality of stuff even an amateur can do today, from the photograph to process to print it almost feels like the golden age of photography.
Epson did have this identical rebate of 25% off for up to 5 items last December as well.
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One wonders whether all these sales, combined with the recent upheavals at Ilford Imaging GmBH, combined with an apparent slow-down in the production of new printer models are precursors of the demise of the printing era.
There will still be office space to decorate and I don't think these facilities will be putting up video screens. ;D
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Yes Alan of course; I wasn't suggesting that the area would be totally vacated, but I think Ernst is right to ask whether a certain number of the players will still be around a couple of years from now.
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Yes Alan of course; I wasn't suggesting that the area would be totally vacated, but I think Ernst is right to ask whether a certain number of the players will still be around a couple of years from now.
I'm quite surprised that we haven't seen companies dropping out over the past several years since the big recession hit in 2008. I haven't been following the Ilford story lately, did they get the bridge financing they needed?
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My information is kind of spotty, but I understand they managed to reorganize some assets and operations and attract some additional money. How secure it is over the longer term remains to be seen.
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I am a fan of Exhibition Fiber, although I do worry a bit about the optical brighteners. One of the things I like most about it is that it lies very flat both before and after printing. Having it lie flat before printing means you can use low head positions without fear of head strikes. Having it lie flat after printing means that it'll look good when matted with photo corners.
It is quite blue, and it took me a while to find a mat paper that matches it well: Crescent Select Vivid White, item number C5700.
Jim
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I am a fan of Exhibition Fiber, although I do worry a bit about the optical brighteners. One of the things I like most about it is that it lies very flat both before and after printing. Having it lie flat before printing means you can use low head positions without fear of head strikes. Having it lie flat after printing means that it'll look good when matted with photo corners.
It is quite blue, and it took me a while to find a mat paper that matches it well: Crescent Select Vivid White, item number C5700.
Jim
Although I recently got a box of 17x22 in the new black "signature worthy" packaging that is definitely wavy out of the box and does not flatten down after printing when left out to degas for 24-48 hours as I usually do.
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I have been printing with exhibition fiber paper for several years. While I have never had an issue with 17
or 24 inch rolls, for the last 6-9 months I have returned the majority of the 17x22 boxes purchased from a very reputable store because of severe tenting. Don't know if the cause was moisture exposure during storage and/or shipping, or a manufacturing defect. The store advised that I was not the only purchaser who had the problem.
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Thanks Mrchapp, maybe I will contact Epson, it really is a cut below what I'm used to getting from the, plus it's cut over 1/8" long on the long side. I can't return it to B&H since I kept the box unopened a couple months before I opened it (stored flat). I hate wasting my time dealing with this shit.
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One wonders whether all these sales, combined with the recent upheavals at Ilford Imaging GmBH, combined with an apparent slow-down in the production of new printer models are precursors of the demise of the printing era.
No new printers because the technology has basically matured to the limit of physics - our eyes just cannot perceive anything more than what’s already possible. As far as the demise of the printing era, I suppose OLED technology could eventually get cheap enough, but my printing business is growing quite nicely. I just sold 32 Canon Pixma Pro 10 printers last weekend on a special demo day with Canon, and have doubled my inventory of ink and paper. The output side of my store has grown over 400% in the last 2.5 years.
Maybe I’m getting business from competitors, but I get the sense the demand for output is actually increasing after bottoming out a few years ago. It will never be what it was, but I think it’s demise is not in the foreseeable future. I think there has been an over supply of paper manufacturers, so the market is pretty fragmented, so with any commodity in this state, some don’t make it with some of them going away or being purchased/absorbed by others (such as Legion paper/Moab paper)
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Ex fiber is a nice looking paper. but it curls terrible. I had to throw away $300 worth of it...pure crap Epson.
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Did you contact Epson for assistance?
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Ex fiber is a nice looking paper. but it curls terrible. I had to throw away $300 worth of it...pure crap Epson.
I've only been using it since 2010, but this is the first box I've gotten that didn't lie very flat.
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Back in 2008 Mark Dubovoy reviewed (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/Epson_Exhibition_Fiber.shtml) Epson Exhibition Fiber paper favorably and, in an addendum, Michael added comments that were somewhat less favorable and complained about the high pricing of the then new paper. At that time, one of Michael's favorites, Ilford Gold Fiber Silk (GFS) Barytas, was more favorably priced. Both authors were worried that the Epson paper employed optical brighteners that could possibly affect longevity unfavorably.
In 2013 the pricing appears more favorable vis-à-vis the Ilford product as shown in the table below, which lists the current pricing at B&H.
I currently have been using Epson Ultra Premium Luster on my Epson 3880 but want to try something new and have ordered a box of the Epson paper and am also considering GFS. The pricing differential is no longer significant. Any comments would be appreciated. I don't have profiling ability and have been using the Epson profiles, and would appreciate any advice on what profile would be best.
How did this work out Bill? Did you use EEF? I am thinking of replacing the R2400 with the 3880 so I've been looking at papers and printed test images on EEF, Luster, Hot Press and Cold Press. EEF is by far the sharpest and has the best blacks I've ever seen in an inkjet print. I used the Pixel Genius EEF profile for the R2400 (http://pixelgenius.com/epson/).
Seems the knocks that I have read are price and longevity, but as you found out, the price is better than most similar 3rd party papers now (early 2015). And at least according to the test results I've seen, it has much better logevity than most other papers with K3 inks. Of course, the OBAs are going to no florese if under UV glass and will burn out much sooner than the print fades making the paper more yellow and toning down the highlights and upper midtones.
I'm just about to pull the trigger on 24" Rolls of Luster and EEF and cutting to width with a 24" Rototrimmer. My Price comparisons below (2015). Luster is the steal in this comparison.
(http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=97912.0;attach=118652;image)
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Yes, the Epson Luster is the cheapest in the list, but when using it one knows why. I think in terms of value for money in the higher quality heavier papers with little or no OBA, the Canson Baryta Photographique looks like a very good deal.
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Yes, the Epson Luster is the cheapest in the list, but when using it one knows why.
Why? I'm not a big fan of the base and I really want to dislike it, but the print quality on this paper is very good in most respects. I'm more a matte paper fan for myself, but the surfaces can be very fragile.
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Why? I'm not a big fan of the base and I really want to dislike it, but the print quality on this paper is very good in most respects. I'm more a matte paper fan for myself, but the surfaces can be very fragile.
Well, a lot of stuff about paper is very subjective, so what I think is just me - others may think it's fine. Firstly, I find handling it risky. It's thin, so in large sheets it can develop little creases unless held very carefully. Secondly, I find it has a bluish cast which I don't like. Thirdly, it is obviously loaded with some kind of OBA - so caveat emptor. Finally, The look of the ink on this paper disturbs me. I find photos printed on this paper just don't have the kind of "full-bodied" look as the same photos printed on IGFS or CBP. I know it starts to sound like what kind of coffee one likes, but if your asking me "why", that's it.
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Well, a lot of stuff about paper is very subjective, so what I think is just me - others may think it's fine. Firstly, I find handling it risky. It's thin, so in large sheets it can develop little creases unless held very carefully. Secondly, I find it has a bluish cast which I don't like. Thirdly, it is obviously loaded with some kind of OBA - so caveat emptor. Finally, The look of the ink on this paper disturbs me. I find photos printed on this paper just don't have the kind of "full-bodied" look as the same photos printed on IGFS or CBP. I know it starts to sound like what kind of coffee one likes, but if your asking me "why", that's it.
I do first proofs on it and it is what I print on to give to people that ask me for prints of something 8x10 and smaller because they expect a gloss finish on a photograph. But yeah, I wish it was a little stiffer and thicker. I like the feel of heavy, rigid matte papers in my hands though.
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I am on a HP z3100. Some papers that perform well on an Epson simply do not work on it.. ( like Ilford Gold Fiber Silk- heavy bronzing)
The HP has a gloss enhancer that does not work on some papers...
On this EEF paper it works very well - but because of the brighteners i turned to other papers:
my favorites are now Hahnemules Photo Rag Baryta- yellowish base paper - very soft and fragile- but very nice for BW.
the other one more close to EEF is Canson Platine. I consider it the best at the moment.
Pure white base without optical brighteners - thick and strong...310gr.
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Won't necessarily be everyones' experience, but Canson Platine and my Epson 4900 didn't play well together. The sheet paper had just enough curl to require vigilance that it successfully came through the paper path and after half a dozen sheets deposited enough particulates to require extensive print head cleanings taking over an hour and I'm sure quite a bit of ink to clean it all up. Won't be using that again. And it really has no practical advantage over GFS - for thoswe to whom the appearance of the photograph is more important than the feel of the backing.
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If a rag paper is what you like, try Museo Silver Rag. It's OBA free and somewhat heavy weight. I've not seen any paper curl in 13x19 cut sheets or smaller (I also cut larger sizes from 17 inch rolls), thus have not experienced the problem that Mark Segal saw with Canson Plantine Rag. It has a better black point than Plantine Rag according to my measurements.
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Alan, what printer are you using it in, and have you had any clogging issues with it from shedding of particulates? Although it's a third costlier than GFS, could be a considerable option if the quality difference is worth the price difference.
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Won't necessarily be everyones' experience, but Canson Platine and my Epson 4900 didn't play well together. The sheet paper had just enough curl to require vigilance that it successfully came through the paper path and after half a dozen sheets deposited enough particulates to require extensive print head cleanings taking over an hour and I'm sure quite a bit of ink to clean it all up. Won't be using that again. And it really has no practical advantage over GFS - for thoswe to whom the appearance of the photograph is more important than the feel of the backing.
This experience I believe is due to Canson's move of switching mills, and it's a terrible decision. I have also noticed this on Platine, but not the Baryta. I was using all Canson Platine from lots prior to mid 2014 until about 3 weeks ago. The new paper does have an issue with particulates, and this becomes even worse if you cut it without a coating of print shield. as all the particulates spread to the printed surface and can become hard to remove.
I had noticed a total change in the Baryta with my last purchase, less overall glossy surface, but that was OK.
The Platine looks the same, but it has the particulate issue. When you unwrap the roll (Platine is wrapped in a protective wrapper), you can see the stuff coming off.
As Mark mentioned this is nightmare for head clogs.
As for Canson, I fail to understand companies like this, as they had an award winning paper, that had been given a total 100% approval from Bill Atkinson. Then they change mills or formulation or both, and don't do a good QA on the new product.
I am going to have to reach out to Canson when I free up a bit of time as it's too late to return the rolls to the distributor.
I have also moved back to M Silver Rag for now until I can get an answer from Canson on the situation of Platine.
Paul
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Alan, what printer are you using it in, and have you had any clogging issues with it from shedding of particulates? Although it's a third costlier than GFS, could be a considerable option if the quality difference is worth the price difference.
Epson 3880. I've not had clogs with any papers that I've used and I still print a fair amount on matte paper. I do dust each sheet with a horse hair brush to get any particulates off the paper prior to printing.
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Thanks, good to know. Anecdotal evidence suggests the 3880 is much less of a "clogger" than the 4900, and the dusting probably helps too. I bought a Datavac Electric Duster from B&H for dealing with film scanning, but it may also be useful for this purpose, insofar as nothing touches the surface and it's quite powerful.
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The Platine looks the same, but it has the particulate issue. When you unwrap the roll (Platine is wrapped in a protective wrapper), you can see the stuff coming off....
I have not noticed this problem for i used it only shortly- two weeks ago...doing my first basic tests ...
Thanks for the warning!
PK
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Thanks, good to know. Anecdotal evidence suggests the 3880 is much less of a "clogger" than the 4900, and the dusting probably helps too. I bought a Datavac Electric Duster from B&H for dealing with film scanning, but it may also be useful for this purpose, insofar as nothing touches the surface and it's quite powerful.
Datavacs are great to have around. I do a lot of computer building and repair and nothing gets the dust out better!!!
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The Platine is beautiful and is the brightest and sharpest of the non oba fiber gloss papers I've used. The texture is great.
I see three "issues" with, it. First it can scratch very easily so you must handle it with care. Second, the rolls curl like hell in the second half of the roll and can cause head strikes. Thirdly, is the powder situation occurs when you trim the print and you can actually have this paper dust stick to the surface of the print. I've had to spot a lot of prints because of this and it is especially problematic when you are using large areas of pure black. What I do now is to let the print completely dry before trimming the media. If you are using it in a roll, set your printer to let you do the paper cutting manually after that print has dried. Then you can blow that dust off.
My black and white prints on the Platine look more like silver prints than anything I've done , so I am putting up with these flaws.
john