Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: andreagenor on October 07, 2013, 10:37:25 am
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What's the correct workflow using Colorchecker Passport and Capture One Pro?
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What's the correct workflow using Colorchecker Passport and Capture One Pro?
use free tools like rawdigger ( http://www.rawdigger.com/usermanual/selection-grid) / argyll ( argyll has 3rd party GUI front ends like CoCa = http://www.muscallidus.com/coca/ or MakeInputICC = http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/191061.html ) to build icc/icm profiles
*** note that C1 wants LAB PCS & lut in AtoB0Tag it you want to use internal color editor in C1 later (that means that a custom icc profile which is pure matrix only + cieXYZ PCS will not be accepted by internal color editor in C1 if you decide to fine tune color inside C1 itself, even if it works just fine for raw conversion there) - at least that was an issue reported by people quite recently.
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Thank you, I will try!
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Not work :(
In the C1 I go to Color Tab > Base Characteristics > ICC Profile > Import .
So pop up this message: No profiles were imported
Capture One only import *.icm file and "Make Imput ICC"only export *.icc
I not understand why is so complicated to do this in C1, with LR or PS is very easy.
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Capture One only import *.icm file and "Make Imput ICC"only export *.icc
rename
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I did, but the colors appear wrong
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Look this.
the image is little blurry, I did fast without tripod
(http://www.andreagenor.com/client/01.png)
(http://www.andreagenor.com/client/02.png)
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use free tools like rawdigger ( http://www.rawdigger.com/usermanual/selection-grid) / argyll ( argyll has 3rd party GUI front ends like CoCa = http://www.muscallidus.com/coca/ or MakeInputICC = http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/191061.html ) to build icc/icm profiles
*** note that C1 wants LAB PCS & lut in AtoB0Tag it you want to use internal color editor in C1 later (that means that a custom icc profile which is pure matrix only + cieXYZ PCS will not be accepted by internal color editor in C1 if you decide to fine tune color inside C1 itself, even if it works just fine for raw conversion there) - at least that was an issue reported by people quite recently.
You will need to process the image in Capture One first, and select "Embedded" color profile. This will apply all the pre-processing steps, including non-linear curves, to the image, but the ICC profile will not be applied (it is embedded in the file). You want to create a color profile that replaces the embedded ICC, so the profiling tool needs to ignore the embedded ICC profile.
An image with an embedded profile will also contain the now-standard TIFF tag ProfileToneCurve (to go back to linear space). In theory, this should make it a much easier job for a profile creator, but they must obviously be aware of that fact. It could even require a different set of algorithms, depending on the exact way the software builds the profile.
It does require some fiddling to get this to work with tools I am aware of. X-Rite did a good job of making the process easy to apply for the supported Adobe products; it is not a simple thing to do from an engineering point of view. The quality of the resulting profiles are, I suppose, a subjective matter.
Oh, and Capture One supported XYZ as a PCS for some time now. It does require the 'A2B0' table to be there, so a pure matrix profile will not work. Caveat: that feature is not tested thoroughly, so please knock yourself out and report any issues ;-)
Kind regards,
Esben H-R Myosotis
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Oh, and Capture One supported XYZ as a PCS for some time now. It does require the 'A2B0' table to be there, so a pure matrix profile will not work.
pure matrix with cieXYZ pcs will work for raw conversion, just it will not work in C1's internal color editor (that part of C1 requires 'A2B0' to be in profile already).
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You will need to process the image in Capture One first, and select "Embedded" color profile.
no, a simple workflow using rawdigger and argyll (with frontends like MakeInputICC) does not need a .tiff file at all, rawdigger works directly from a raw file ( http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/187421.html ) ... certainly you can use C1 and make a .tiff file and feed it towards some alternative software that does not work with raw files directly.
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pure matrix with cieXYZ pcs will work for raw conversion, just it will not work in C1's internal color editor (that part of C1 requires 'A2B0' to be in profile already).
Sure. I meant the color editor works with XYZ-profiles if the A2B0 table is there.
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no, a simple workflow using rawdigger and argyll (with frontends like MakeInputICC) does not need a .tiff file at all, rawdigger works directly from a raw file ( http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/187421.html ) ... certainly you can use C1 and make a .tiff file and feed it towards some alternative software that does not work with raw files directly.
You may be able to build a profile the way you describe, but the profile will not be useful in Capture One.
The ICC profile is not applied directly to the RAW data in Capture One. I think it would be insane to do so except in very special circumstances, and in those circumstances you want better resolution than an ICC profile provides anyway. You have at very least a film-curve and a gamma-conversion, possibly more depending on the camera.
The profile builder will either need to do the same processing Capture One does prior to applying the ICC, or you need to process the image in Capture One. I only see the last option is a viable way to work.
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You may be able to build a profile the way you describe, but the profile will not be useful in Capture One.
it shall be
The ICC profile is not applied directly to the RAW data in Capture One.
I am not sure what do you mean by "raw" data ? if you mean that C1 does demosaicking first that is not an issue - data is still scene referred... are you implying that C1 does some internal color transform from scene-referred RGB data into some color space before starting to use the data in icc profile ? that can't be so... are you implying that C1 does apply some curves before or after demosaicking ? that again has nothing to damage application of the pure matrix profile...
i
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I am not sure what do you mean by "raw" data ?
The output of a hypothetical RAW converter that only did demosaic and white balance. However, even in this simple case you can get in trouble. IIRC, DNG specifies a white-point dependent camera matrix.
if you mean that C1 does demosaicking first that is not an issue - data is still scene referred... are you implying that C1 does some internal color transform from scene-referred RGB data into some color space before starting to use the data in icc profile ? that can't be so...
It is so.
It would be stupid to feed linear data to the ICC, so at least you want a gamma conversion. In DNG there can be a camera matrix and the (usually strongly non-linear filmcurve) is also applied before the ICC profile.
Sometimes there are other steps, but I am not going to discuss our pipe in any details without an NDA.
Capture One has this power feature where you can embed the camera profile in the processed file instead of converting to some standard color-space. How do you think that is possible?
Cameras are not created equal. If you want to convert all images into a standard color-space at the beginning, particularly with something as blunt as an ICC profile, then you loose a great deal of your ability do camera specific optimizations.
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It is so.
ok, so tell me which specific color space C1 does convert to (from camera's) before it starts using the data from icc ;) ?
It would be stupid to feed linear data to the ICC, so at least you want a gamma conversion. In DNG there can be a camera matrix and the (usually strongly non-linear filmcurve) is also applied before the ICC profile.
what DNG has to do with all this (we are talking abour C1 and not ACR/LR) and how the pure matrix conversion is negatively affected by a curve(s) applied to demosaicked or not demosaicked data for before using that matrix to do a color transform from a scene referred data into some proper color space ? RPP does exactly that - roughly : wb, curves, etc before demosaick, then demosaick and then color transform as the last stage and pure matrix profiles do work properly... for as long as C1 does not do color transform from camera's "color space" into something else pure matrix profile shall work as intended regardless of whatever curves it applies internally before matrix from profile.
Sometimes there are other steps, but I am not going to discuss our pipe in any details without an NDA.
"our pipe" ? are you a P1 employee (like Eric Chan is Adobe's) ?
Capture One has this power feature where you can embed the camera profile in the processed file instead of converting to some standard color-space. How do you think that is possible?
what is has to do with the fact that you can build and use simple matrix profiles in C1 w/o using C1 itself to generate a tiff file ?
Cameras are not created equal. If you want to convert all images into a standard color-space at the beginning
where did you get that I want to "convert all ...." ? my point is that you can build a simple matrix profile that directs how C1 will do a color transform from a scene referred data into PCS w/o using C1 itself and that's it
, particularly with something as blunt as an ICC profile, then you loose a great deal of your ability do camera specific optimizations.
that is not the subject of our discussion - the subject is very simple : whether it is necessary to use C1 to generate a tiff file from a target shot to build a simple matrix profile to be used in ICC or not
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Sorry, but I think it is turning a discussion that did not help me.
My English is not good and would just like to know if there is a simple way to solve my problem.
Recently I photographed some clothes and something very strange happened, because the color of clothing was a cyan but appear like green but the picture was totally different.
All other clothes and other colors were correct, only that it was happening cyan.
I bought the Color Checker Passport to calibrate my images and get the correct colors.
I can use LR / ACR, but I prefer Capture One.
If there is not an easy way I'll use the ACR when these situations arise.
If someone has the easy way to correct image color using ColorCheckerPassport, please post some video tutorials.
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For your situation I suggest you not bother with "calibration" at all.
Use Color Editor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryG-DTekYB0) to make a quick adjustment to that color.
It will take only a few seconds (once you learn Color Editor).
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Sorry, but I think it is turning a discussion that did not help me.
My English is not good and would just like to know if there is a simple way to solve my problem.
Recently I photographed some clothes and something very strange happened, because the color of clothing was a cyan but appear like green but the picture was totally different.
All other clothes and other colors were correct, only that it was happening cyan.
I bought the Color Checker Passport to calibrate my images and get the correct colors.
I can use LR / ACR, but I prefer Capture One.
If there is not an easy way I'll use the ACR when these situations arise.
If someone has the easy way to correct image color using ColorCheckerPassport, please post some video tutorials.
C1 has internal color editor where you can selectively adjust some colors and save that as a profile (icc) to use in future...
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For your situation I suggest you not bother with "calibration" at all.
Use Color Editor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryG-DTekYB0) to make a quick adjustment to that color.
It will take only a few seconds (once you learn Color Editor).
Doug, I did with color editor, but the color not match perfectly, and there are some variations that need different edits.
I need a solution for solve this problem and guarantee the perfect colors, without hard manual work.
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C1 has internal color editor where you can selectively adjust some colors and save that as a profile (icc) to use in future...
Vladimirovich,
I know, but the adjustment is manual and sometimes not reaches the color you need.
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Hi,
I would recommend using Adobe DNG Profile Editor instead of the Color Checker Passport software, mainly because with Adobe DNG PE you can tweak your profiles. In my view both CPP and Adobe DNG Profile Editor provide oversaturated profiles.
I have bought Capture One Pro, before I bought my P45+ back, so I am Phase One customer. I may have some bias for LR5, as I have been using LR since 2006 and I also have something like 65000 raw images in my LR5 catalog.
It may be a good idea for Phase One to add support for profiling with a CC card. You are not really profiling, that takes a monochromator, but just tuning real profiles to taste.
Best regards
Erik
Sorry, but I think it is turning a discussion that did not help me.
My English is not good and would just like to know if there is a simple way to solve my problem.
Recently I photographed some clothes and something very strange happened, because the color of clothing was a cyan but appear like green but the picture was totally different.
All other clothes and other colors were correct, only that it was happening cyan.
I bought the Color Checker Passport to calibrate my images and get the correct colors.
I can use LR / ACR, but I prefer Capture One.
If there is not an easy way I'll use the ACR when these situations arise.
If someone has the easy way to correct image color using ColorCheckerPassport, please post some video tutorials.
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Hi,
I would recommend using Adobe DNG Profile Editor instead of the Color Checker Passport software, mainly because with Adobe DNG PE you can tweak your profiles.
nothing prevents you from creating a base profile with XRite OEM software and then tweak it in Adobe PE (which has to use some base profile)... or use software from QPCard.
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Doug, I did with color editor, but the color not match perfectly, and there are some variations that need different edits.
I need a solution for solve this problem and guarantee the perfect colors, without hard manual work.
then shooting a consumer level target w/ few color patches probably will not help you... you need to build profiles w/ LUTs to do some tuning for specific colors and that really involves a lot of manual work and/or monochromator or custom made color targets with a lot of color patches and spectrophotometer...
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Starting in the middle:
"our pipe" ? are you a P1 employee (like Eric Chan is Adobe's) ?
I'm sorry about that. I was certain that I filled in my profile here, but apparently that is not so.
Let me introduce myself then: I am a Phase One engineer in the Image Core group, which is responsible for image processing in Capture One and related products. I currently maintain the color management implementation.
Note the "implementation" part. We have a really critical guy ("The Image Professor") who needs to nod. Unlike me, he has a really good color vision for example.
I am also the one to blame for the current incarnation of the LCC-system, lens correction, most of the local adjustments, certain parts of camera calibration and many other things. I don't touch the GUI at all.
what DNG has to do with all this (we are talking abour C1 and not ACR/LR) and how the pure matrix conversion is negatively affected by a curve(s) applied to demosaicked or not demosaicked data for before using that matrix to do a color transform from a scene referred data into some proper color space ? RPP does exactly that - roughly : wb, curves, etc before demosaick, then demosaick and then color transform as the last stage and pure matrix profiles do work properly... for as long as C1 does not do color transform from camera's "color space" into something else pure matrix profile shall work as intended regardless of whatever curves it applies internally before matrix from profile.
I am saying that your approach will only be useful for a very specific, and extraordinarily dumb, RAW converter.
It will not produce useful profiles for Capture One. I just used DNG-based converters to explain why your approach is useless in that case. However, DNG have a standardized conversion chain, so you could conceivably build profiles that specifically targets that case.
My point is that the ICC-profile is always linked to particular conversion process. I am not saying you cannot force Capture One to use such a profile; you can also force it to use a Trinitron profile (if you know how). I merely said it is useless to do so.
that is not the subject of our discussion - the subject is very simple : whether it is necessary to use C1 to generate a tiff file from a target shot to build a simple matrix profile to be used in ICC or not
OK, so let me put it in simpler terms:
1) Yes, you can easily force Capture One to use a random camera profile.
2) No, it is useless unless the profile-builder have intimate knowledge about the RAW conversion chain.
Regards,
Esben H-R Myosotis
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Sorry, but I think it is turning a discussion that did not help me.
Sorry; I did not intend to hijack the thread. I merely saw some bad advice and wanted to prevent you from spending a lot of time.
My English is not good and would just like to know if there is a simple way to solve my problem.
Recently I photographed some clothes and something very strange happened, because the color of clothing was a cyan but appear like green but the picture was totally different.
All other clothes and other colors were correct, only that it was happening cyan.
I bought the Color Checker Passport to calibrate my images and get the correct colors.
I can use LR / ACR, but I prefer Capture One.
If there is not an easy way I'll use the ACR when these situations arise.
If someone has the easy way to correct image color using ColorCheckerPassport, please post some video tutorials.
Sorry, everything automated I know of, that would actually work, is a pain.
I agree with Doug that the color editor is the way to go in Capture One currently.
Kind regards,
Esben H-R Myosotis
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Let me introduce myself then: I am a Phase One engineer in the Image Core group, which is responsible for image processing in Capture One and related products. I currently maintain the color management implementation.
great, finally we have some technical person from P1 to torture here :D !!!
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It will not produce useful profiles for Capture One.
from which standpoint ;) ? if camera is such that pure matrix based color transform is OK then it will be... if otherwise you need LUTs to fix certain colors then it is a different case
My point is that the ICC-profile is always linked to particular conversion process.
yes, it does and you can fit custom build ICC profile in your chain w/o using C1 to produce tiff file (because the data in that tiff file will be in original camera "color space" and possible application of any tone curves can't do anything bad for a pure matrix profile build w/o C1 involved)
I am not saying you cannot force Capture One to use such a profile;
great and more so, I can use it to get colors that I like... because tastes are personal ;), certainly when you need to adjust certain colors pure matrix profile is not enough.