Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: HSakols on October 03, 2013, 09:13:35 am
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Here is the response from one of our representatives who voted to shut down the government. He doesn't realize that the National Park Service is part of the federal government and wants to shoot the messenger with the bad news.
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Congressman-Confronts-Park-Ranger-Over-Closed-WWII-Memorial-226209781.html
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This autumn won't be as colorful for us photographers wanting to visit national parks. That pales in comparison to people who will not have access to essential services like meals on wheels, national institutes of health medical programs, WIC food support for poor, or public safety regulation like food inspections and EPA inspections. Short-sighted thinking by right-wing ideologues will destroy our country with one manufactured crisis after another.
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Folks, this is the way politics works. We don't have a king or dictator to make all our decisions for us. At least not yet. I'm thankful we have a strong two party system, no matter how messy it may look.
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Folks, this is the way politics works. We don't have a king or dictator to make all our decisions for us. At least not yet. I'm thankful we have a strong two party system, no matter how messy it may look.
no, that's not the way politics needs to work. This action is being undertaken by a minority of half of the legislature who is holding everyone else hostage. The leadership is afraid of the minority so they won't let a clean funding bill come to the floor. If they did, all Democrats would vote for it and a handful of the remaining reasonable Republicans would vote for it. These ideologues have tried and failed many times to overturn The Affordable Care Act through the proper legislative channels, but they don't have the votes, so now they are going to hold all other government programs hostage. That isn't okay. That isn't how a Democracy works. That is how a Democracy fails.
Don't make false equivalence here. There are a couple dozen people who are to blame here. In this debacle, they happen to be Republicans.
http://pressthink.org/2013/10/the-production-of-innocence-in-the-reporting-of-american-politics-a-pressthink-analysis/
https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/385468973971951616
Can I burn down your house?
No
Just the 2nd floor?
No
Garage?
No
Let's talk about what I can burn down.
No
YOU AREN'T COMPROMISING!
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no, that's not the way politics needs to work. This action is being undertaken by a minority of half of the legislature who is holding everyone else hostage. The leadership is afraid of the minority so they won't let a clean funding bill come to the floor. If they did, all Democrats would vote for it and a handful of the remaining reasonable Republicans would vote for it. These ideologues have tried and failed many times to overturn The Affordable Care Act through the proper legislative channels, but they don't have the votes, so now they are going to hold all other government programs hostage. That isn't okay. That isn't how a Democracy works. That is how a Democracy fails.
Don't make false equivalence here. There are a couple dozen people who are to blame here. In this debacle, they happen to be Republicans.
http://pressthink.org/2013/10/the-production-of-innocence-in-the-reporting-of-american-politics-a-pressthink-analysis/
https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/385468973971951616
+1000!
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If I hated the US, this would be a schadenfreude moment. As it is, I look at the US right now & think, the people do not deserve this nonsense from their politicians. Really, it looks like the US has become a Central American state from 40 years ago, looking like a banana republic. Sad times.
I saw this image from the other (non-photographic) forum I frequent. Pretty much sums up the Tea Party stance on this issue
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/51524/large/tumblr_mu2ai6sgfU1qat9xfo1_500.png)
Oops! Just noticed that the content has already been posted. But mine is a prettier, more colourful image ;D
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In the linked video, a "voice from the crowd" said: "The House did its job; it passed appropriations. The Senate hasn't"
That twisted logic is the same as blaming those that didn't cave in to ransom demands for the hostage death.
Here is the response from one of our representatives who voted to shut down the government. He doesn't realize that the National Park Service is part of the federal government and wants to shoot the messenger with the bad news.
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Congressman-Confronts-Park-Ranger-Over-Closed-WWII-Memorial-226209781.html
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Folks, this is the way politics works...
No, that is how really, really, really bad politics works.
If government is not needed, than get rid of it, shut it down... permanently. If it is needed, you do not get to shut it down, even temporarily.
It is like having a child... you do not get to switch it off and on, you do not get to choose that you have a child when it suits you and that it is not your child when it doesn't suit you.
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Ahh yesss. . . Here we go again into liberal la la land.
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Ahh yesss. . . Here we go again into liberal la la land.
What's government got to do with the "liberal la la land"? Governments are not partisan. National Parks are not partisan. Governments were there for neocons too. When Republicans were in power and when Democrats were in power.
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Ahh yesss. . . Here we go again into liberal la la land.
You mean where attention to facts, respect for logic, and a modicum of intelligence rule?
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Liberal land?
Now we are in the land of Ayn Rand Conservatives who would like to privatize our country until it becomes as unstable as many African Nations. The liberals are the ones running naked through the meadows of Yosemite Valley-don't worry they won't let them in. OK I'm ducking under my desk to block any dung thrown my way. Oh the biking outside of the park entrances is quite enjoyable.
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I can see why the access to libraries & museums might be an issue, but why can't you get into the National Parks? Surely you just drive in, park up, get out & walk. At least, that's what we do in our parks.
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Many US National Parks charge an entrance fee, and camping fees, and... so you need someone to collect the money and maintain the services.
Incidentally, the 3 largest US National Parks are all larger than Wales.
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If the parks are closed, what happens to those hikers on things like the PCT? They could well have been part-way through a journey, unaware that things have gone the way they have, and not find out 'til they arrive at a point along the trail where they reasonably expect a campsite, maybe opportunity for resupply, and things like that.
It really is a ridiculous situation for a country to get itself into.
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You can drive through to Yosemite to get from point a to point b but you may not stop to play. There are checkpoints along the way. This means you can drive through to photograph the fall colors on the east side. My wife was lucky enough to ride her bike into the Yosemite Valley today from El Portal because she was going to work (I'm sure she had to do some explaining at the checkpoints). She works for a park partner until tomorrow and then will be let off until things change. Already my neighbors have packed up and left for what could be a long vacation. Again this is really hurting all the parks' gateway communities. Here in Mariposa county we are hurting do to fires, floods, and now this! ARRRRRRGHHH. Surprisingly enough all my students were present today at El Portal School.
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You can drive through to Yosemite to get from point a to point b but you may not stop to play.
may I stop to "replace" a tire ?
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So you're not free to walk in your National Parks? Who owns them? I thought the people owned them. Was I wrong?
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http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Congressman-Confronts-Park-Ranger-Over-Closed-WWII-Memorial-226209781.html
"The Park Service should be ashamed of themselves," the congressman said.
Wrong. How so very very wrong.
It is the congressman that should feel ashamed of himself and congress that should feel ashamed of itself.
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"The Park Service should be ashamed of themselves," the congressman said.
Wrong. How so very very wrong.
It is the congressman that should feel ashamed of himself and congress that should feel ashamed of itself.
+100.
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So you're not free to walk in your National Parks? Who owns them? I thought the people owned them. Was I wrong?
Do you think it's unreasonable that the people who use National Parks should pay more for maintenance than the people who don't use them?
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Different recreational lands have different rules. National forests have few amenities and requirements and much less law enforcement and public safety (rescue people). National Parks are intended for recreation and generally have admission fees. Then there are recreation areas and wilderness areas and wildlife refuges....all of them with different rules based on their different missions.
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Ahh yesss. . . Here we go again into liberal la la land.
Right. In a republic, according to the constitution of the USA, the country is to be governed by the "people alone".
When the people want better healthcare, and manage to overcome the huge hurdles separating their desires from political decisions through a legal vote, how republican is it to prevent this willingness from the people from happening?
How democratic is it?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Right. In a republic, according to the constitution of the USA, the country is to be governed by the "people alone".
When the people want better healthcare, and manage to overcome the huge hurdles separating their desires from political decisions through a legal vote, how republican is it to prevent this willingness from the people from happening?
How democratic is it?
The problem is that the president is not aligned with the house on a political level and the house is also not aligned with the senate. So on the one hand the people have said "YES" to better health care but on the other, they have said "NO". So a fight has ensued.
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So maybe everyone wants free healthcare, but who has to pay for it? Our children? The money has to come from somewhere, and I certainly don't have it coming out of my kitchen faucet. Those Democrats need to stop being suborn. They need to remove the funding for a program which will add trillions more to our debt - and maybe shut down our government for good. YIKES! We need our P-O-L-I-C-E. :'(
Russ, sometimes it just isn't worth it to argue. :P
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Do you think it's unreasonable that the people who use National Parks should pay more for maintenance than the people who don't use them?
Your question is a non sequitur, but either way, I think that if they're National Parks, general taxation should fund them. They are national resource, available to all citizens. If some choose not to use them, that's their decision.
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So maybe everyone wants free healthcare, but who has to pay for it? Our children? The money has to come from somewhere ...
How about a national insurance scheme, based on ability to pay, leading to access to health care, free at the point of use? Whilst the UK NHS has its failings, it is immensely more cost-effective service than the US system, with far less a percentage of the nation's GDP having to be invested in healthcare, delivering (until the current UK government started screwing it all up) healthcare pretty much on a par with anywhere in the world.
I know the Tea Party will say that it's 'socialism', it's Marxist, and that if the US went down that road, it would be gulags & goose-stepping before breakfast. Sane people might just think that it's worth considering.
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How about a national insurance scheme, based on ability to pay, leading to access to health care, free at the point of use? Whilst the UK NHS has its failings, it is immensely more cost-effective service than the US system, with far less a percentage of the nation's GDP having to be invested in healthcare, delivering (until the current UK government started screwing it all up) healthcare pretty much on a par with anywhere in the world.
I know the Tea Party will say that it's 'socialism', it's Marxist, and that if the US went down that road, it would be gulags & goose-stepping before breakfast. Sane people might just think that it's worth considering.
It might be all of those things but there's something else important about it too: it works. And it's not just the UK, it is also Canada, Australia, and so on.
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I know the Tea Party will say that it's 'socialism', it's Marxist, and that if the US went down that road, it would be gulags & goose-stepping before breakfast. Sane people might just think that it's worth considering.
Besides, how about the crazy thought that, in fact, a majority of citizens in the US are in favor of some degree of socialism? I am speaking about real socialism as it is implemented in Western Europe, not about the demonized view of it "promoted" by a small bunch of super rich influencers only fighting for the interests of their clan under the shamelessly borrowed name of some ideologies?
I have traveled a bit. In my view there is an obvious direct relationship between the level of comfort of the poorest part of the population and the quality of life in a country. I am speaking about the quality of life of the middle class, not about the poor themselves. A country does itself a huge favor by treating well the weak and health care is at the core of this. This is nothing but the most basic Christian value by the way.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I see this thread - as all threads on the site - seems to be diverging so here is my contribution to the divergence. I am presently reading a book by Michael Freedland about McCarthyism called Witch-Hunt in Hollywood. To say it is an eye opener is an understatement. If anyone thinks that the Republicans and the supporters are democratic and believe in the constitution then reading that book will disabuse them of any thoughts about fairness. As a person who doesn't live in the USA - but strongly thinks that anything major that they do impacts on the world - it appears very strange that the tail can wag the dog and bring the country to it's knees. If this action was happening in a South American country the Republicans would be straining to to call for a coup in the region and denigrating them as "crazy commies" :o
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I have little interest in re-litigating the health care debate or some general flame war between liberals and conservatives. That is really boring and unproductive.
What I think is interesting is the original question about why the national parks need to be closed. The article below provides a balanced view of the issue from the park service's point of view.
NPR, National Parks Close As Other Public Lands Stay Open (http://www.npr.org/2013/10/03/228719015/national-parks-close-as-other-public-lands-stay-open)
Some interesting excerpts:
"National parks exist because they are protecting irreplaceable resources," says Joan Anzelmo, a former national park superintendent and spokeswoman for the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees.
Anzelmo says "extraordinary natural resources, priceless historic artifacts and archaeology" are threatened when left unattended during the shutdown.
"There would be vandalism and theft," she adds. "There would be destruction in some places. There would be animals that are poached."
At Zion, Batrus worries about the 10,000 American and foreign tourists in the park this time of year.
"Allowing 10,000 people to come in and do whatever they want in the park ... would really be risking the resources" and the safety of visitors.
That's a reference to the federal law that established the National Park Service in 1916. It requires the agency to "conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same."
That is the law. They are not there as a service to the vain egocentric-interests individual citizens. They are there to conserve and protect our resources for everyone--present and future. This requires management. They talk about 10,000 people that visit Zion this time of year. Without supervision, that would be a disaster and our parks would be decimated in days.
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... the Republicans would be straining to call for a coup...
They are:
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/christian-tv-host-asks-god-military-takeover
Christian TV Host Asks God for 'Military Takeover' of Obama's Presidency
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They are:
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/christian-tv-host-asks-god-military-takeover
Christian TV Host Asks God for 'Military Takeover' of Obama's Presidency
Association Fallacy = not fair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy
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Association Fallacy = not fair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
;)
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Quote Fike Reply#30
I have little interest in re-litigating the health care debate or some general flame war between liberals and conservatives. That is really boring and unproductive.
What I think is interesting is the original question about why the national parks need to be closed. The article below provides a balanced view of the issue from the park service's point of view.
Unquote
Fike I think you have mis read the original post. It is all about the liberals and conservatives using health care as a political football which has impacted on the parks. Until they sort that out not only the parks will be affected. What came first the chicken or the egg? Some might question why Europeans are commenting on this issue. A lot of them have booked holidays to the USA in the next week or two which may not happen. As well as paying a lot of money it is difficult to get visas for the States which involves a lot of time and effort.
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Keep in mind the Park Service runs under a dual mandate. 1. for the enjoyment of the people. and 2. protection of resources. Yes the resources belong to all Americans but it is the job of the Park Service to regulate and manage the resources. Should we be able to drive across meadows? I've seen visitors do just that and say it is their god given right. A few years back there was an individual who drove out into Tuolumne Meadows and just started to do donuts destroying the fragile resource. Luckily he was caught and it was recorded on video by a visitor. Now the park is contending with tagging on rocks and cliff faces. Back in the 40's you could just drive out into the meadows and camp. At least we have come a long way from that. If we could do what ever we wanted in our national parks because they belong to us, they would all be exploited and trashed.
Evidently this shut down is not bothering the climbers on El Capitan. Many are still up there and I wonder how long they plan to stay. We don't see anyone telling them to come down. I love it!!
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Right. In a republic, according to the constitution of the USA, the country is to be governed by the "people alone".
When the people want better healthcare, and manage to overcome the huge hurdles separating their desires from political decisions through a legal vote, how republican is it to prevent this willingness from the people from happening?
How democratic is it?
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard, before you get too cranked out of shape you need to look up things like the "Louisiana Purchase" and the "Cornhusker Kickback" in connection with the passing of Obamacare. Even the Democrats were so concerned about the adverse effects of the thing that several had to be bribed to vote for it. These were just two of the bribes involved. The "willingness of the people" had nothing to do with it, and current roughly 60% of the country would like Obamacare at least delayed.
Are you convinced that "the people" are in favor of members of Congress and their aides being exempt from Obamacare? Are you convinced that "the people" are in favor of businesses being exempt for a year from the Obamacare "mandate," while individuals are not? Maybe living in Japan gives you a different perspective.
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What I think is interesting is the original question about why the national parks need to be closed.
There was an interesting letter in the WSJ this morning wondering why even unattended, standalone features in national parks are closed down because of a lack of funds while the Park Service seems to have enough money to put up barriers and post guards. Anybody want to guess?
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There was an interesting letter in the WSJ this morning wondering why even unattended, standalone features in national parks are closed down because of a lack of funds while the Park Service seems to have enough money to put up barriers and post guards. Anybody want to guess?
Pay attention to what has already been posted and avoid asking what has just been answered. Specifically "even unattended, standalone features ..." need to be protected.
But the Park Service is not spending money! Nobody is ordering up the production and delivery of material for new barriers. Only labor is involved. Those individuals are deemed "essential", such as police officers, are required to report to work and will not be paid. They are forced to volunteer their labor to protect our national resources.
Basically it is forced labor, and is just one more disgraceful aspect of this absurd action by a small percentage of right wing political fanatics in Congress supported by the likes of you (i.e., folks who do not pay attention to detain and cannot seem to relate cause and effect in any valid manner).
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Maybe living in Japan gives you a different perspective.
It darn well should give him a different perspective! Japan has a health care system that cost less than ours, but results in higher longevity figures and lower infant mortality rates (two very good indicators of how well the Japanese health care system works and how poor ours has been).
It isn't just Japan though, it's the entire industrialized world! The US has been a Third World nation in terms of health care, and we have just now finally started to correct that! Except the Tea Party would go backwards...
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... current roughly 60% of the country would like Obamacare at least delayed...
And the source of that is...? Other than Faux News, that is.
The biggest fear for Republicons is not that Obamacare would not work. That outcome would work in their favor. They should actually be the first one requesting a speedier implementation: the sooner it starts, the sooner it would collapse, allowing them to gloat "I told you so" and get the whole country behind their request to repeal it.
No, their biggest fear is that it actually might work. That's why they are trying so rabidly to stop it.
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Do you think it's unreasonable that the people who use National Parks should pay more for maintenance than the people who don't use them?
Your question is a non sequitur, ...
No, it was just a question, not part of an argument.
... but either way, I think that if they're National Parks, general taxation should fund them. They are national resource, available to all citizens. If some choose not to use them, that's their decision.
You don't seem familiar with US National Parks, and I mistakenly thought you were trying to understand how they operate.
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I know too many people from other countries, that have had physical problems, and would have died if they hadn't come to the U.S. for better healthcare. Yes, government run healthcare may be free for all, but not accessible to all. If I need to wait 2 years to get a cast on my broken arm, that's BAD! Even worse, if I have cancer, and have to wait that long = YIKES. I'll be dead before then. 8)
:P
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I know too many people from other countries, that have had physical problems, and would have died if they hadn't come to the U.S. for better healthcare. Yes, government run healthcare may be free for all, but not accessible to all. If I need to wait 2 years to get a cast on my broken arm, that's BAD! Even worse, if I have cancer, and have to wait that long = YIKES. I'll be dead before then. 8)
Sure... that's why the US is so far down the list on figures for longevity! The World Health Organization put the US at 33, while Japan is number 1 (2011). The 32 countries where you are more likely to live longer than in the US all, virtually by definition, have a "better healthcare system"!
The country that has the best medical facilities is the US, and for those who can get it, whether citizens or foreigners, it is great. But the country that spends the most on health care and delivers it to the lowest percentage of the population is the US.
You've fabricated unrealistic scenarios to denigrate countries with better health care systems than ours. We have the national wealth to produce the best doctors, the best hospitals, etc etc to provide the best medical treatment available anywhere in the world! But we also have one of the worst health care systems.
Worse than the figures for longevity are those for infant mortality. The UN ranks the United States as the 50th down the list (Japan is at number 2). Even that does not tell the real horror though. In the wealthiest nation in the world, there are areas where the infant mortality rate is two or more times the national average! No, not just poor regions either; the difference are racial! Native Americans, who are supposed to get "free" medical care from the US Government typically have poor medical facilites. (An example is where I live, on the North Slope of Alaska, which is per capita one of the wealthiest locations in the US, but also is primarily Alaska Native by race and depends entirely on Indian Health Service funded hospital services. The infant mortality rates are not as high as on the average Indian reservation, but they are closer to that than to the national average.)
The point of course is that President Obama and the Democrats in Congress have at least tried very diligently to actually improve the health care delivery system in this country. The Republicans have tried very hard to protect the insurance industry. Guess who donates the most money for polictical campaigns?
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And the source of that is...? Other than Faux News, that is.
Hi Slobodan, Interesting that watchership on your "faux" news keeps increasing while watchership on the traditional networks keeps falling. Eventually people figure out they're being lied to. But yes, Fox is one of the sources for this info, and I gave an approximation. The actual figure: 57% would like to delay and 54% would like to repeal. The figures change at a rapid pace.
I notice that you didn't address the bribes the Dems had to make to pass the law. Maybe that was something made up by "faux" news?
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Hi Slobodan, Interesting that watchership on your "faux" news keeps increasing while watchership on the traditional networks keeps falling...
Not interesting... sad, sad, sad... and utterly dangerous.
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Interesting that watchership on your "faux" news keeps increasing while watchership on the traditional networks keeps falling.
That might be interesting if we knew more about the claim. As it stands, "watchership" might simply mean those who still get their news from couch cable TV rather than tablets and phones.
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Hi Slobodan, Interesting that watchership on your "faux" news keeps increasing while watchership on the traditional networks keeps falling. Eventually people figure out they're being lied to. But yes, Fox is one of the sources for this info, and I gave an approximation. The actual figure: 57% would like to delay and 54% would like to repeal. The figures change at a rapid pace.
According to Forbes Magazine, only 33% of Americans want Obamacare delayed, defunded, or repealed. Given Faux (love it!) News's long and documented history of lies and distortions, guess which I will believe? Oh wait, Forbes is a noted liberal rag, right?
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In a fit of anger her majesty Queen Elizabeth II issued the following letter to the citizens of United States of America:
Revocation of Independence (http://itzhakts.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/revocation-of-independence/)
Love #7 :)
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I have yet to see a news source that doesn't seem to bend the news. For example, how many of you knew about the other Aurora shooting? The one that definitely shows how negative gun control really is. http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/12175-two-aurora-shootings-one-widely-known-the-other-ignored
Oh, and as far as America being one of the wealthiest countries, look at our debt. Tell me how long you can survive with that.
And believe me, McDonalds and donuts aren't too good for longevity.
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For example, how many of you knew about the other Aurora shooting? The one that definitely shows how negative gun control really is. http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/12175-two-aurora-shootings-one-widely-known-the-other-ignored
That article does not support the concept of "how negative gun control really is." The citizen with a weapn who killed the perpetrator... was a police officer. No ordinary citizen with a gun, but an official who is extremely well trained and it most likely required to carry a weapn even when not on duty.
The intent of gun control, whether it is able to accomplish it or not, is to make it more difficult for that perpetrator to have obtained his weapon in the first place. Two men might still be alive if we could have found at least a partial solution before that date. The next person to die due to gun violence might not die, if only...
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If only they didn't steal the gun from someone else, and then shoot the innocent person, because they are a crooked, bad person? >:( But if every good guy has a gun, they won't want to even think about it. Would you want to rob a bank, if everyone in it, around it, and coming into it had a gun? I sure wouldn't!
Not that I would anyway. 8)
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And to clarify, there are rules about needing training to get a concealed carry license. Gun are tools, as spoons are. Yet no one blames spoons for making them fat. I wouldn't think that someone who has history of being drunk should carry a gun.
If every teacher carried a concealed gun, do you think you would still be hearing of mass shootings? An old lady can defend herself against a 200.lbs hunk of muscle with a gun.
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As well as paying a lot of money it is difficult to get visas for the States which involves a lot of time and effort.
Heh. I believe that the VISA waiver program for the USA was introduced so that people could fly to the USA on business or pleasure without needing to get a VISA because of the problems government shutdowns (and thus embassy/consulate shutdowns) had on people trying to get them.
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Report on what Republicans think
(http://www.democracycorps.com/attachments/article/954/dcor%20rpp%20fg%20memo%20100313%20final.pdf)
The meme that is currently growing is that the Republicans hate Obamacare because (a) it might actually work and (b) people might actually like it. The problem for them is the millions of people that currently vote Republican could benefit and like Obamacare and thus decide not to vote Republican.
New York Times: Why the health care law scares to the GOP (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/business/economy/why-the-health-care-law-scares-the-gop.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0)
"The only possible conclusion from all this is that the law's opponents have succeeded brilliantly in marketing "Obamacare" as something it's not, and its defenders have failed miserably at communicating what it is."
LA Times: The truth is, Americans love Obamacare (http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-obamacare-20131001,0,4909537.story)
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The intent of gun control, whether it is able to accomplish it or not, is to make it more difficult for that perpetrator to have obtained his weapon in the first place. Two men might still be alive if we could have found at least a partial solution before that date. The next person to die due to gun violence might not die, if only...
The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pOiOhxujsE)
The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbY45rHj8w)
The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVuspKSjfgA)
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Evidently this shut down is not bothering the climbers on El Capitan. Many are still up there and I wonder how long they plan to stay. We don't see anyone telling them to come down. I love it!!
But if they run into trouble, as others have in the past, who will rescue them?
From Google's cache:
Climbers rescued from El Capitan (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WSqLagoPAS8J:http://www.nps.gov/yose/blogs/Injured-Climbers-Rescued-from-El-Capitan.htm%2Bel+capitan+rescue+2013&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr&gbv=1&sei=74xPUvHbCaySiQeewIDIBg&hl=en&ct=clnk)
That is to say that one of their "safety nets" is now not going to be there if they run into life threatening trouble.
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The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pOiOhxujsE)
The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbY45rHj8w)
The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWuzezm1vL0)
Thank you for posting those URL's. Quite a statement...
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... That is to say that one of their "safety nets" is now not going to be there if they run into life threatening trouble.
Eliminating safety nets is so very Republican... and (according to them) so Christian. Helps self-reliance, eliminates "culture of dependance," etc.
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I don't like youtube (it absorbs to much time), so I looked it up online for an article. Basically, maybe Australia doesn't have the mass shootings. BUT, what about other violence? The cure for mass shootings is more individuals who carry guns, to stop the shootings before they make progress. The old lady can't defend herself against the big guy with the club (or vegetable peeler), if she doesn't have a gun.
And no, there aren't enough police to be everywhere. :-\
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I don't like youtube (it absorbs to much time), so I looked it up online for an article. Basically, maybe Australia doesn't have the mass shootings. BUT, what about other violence? The cure for mass shootings is more individuals who carry guns, to stop the shootings before they make progress. The old lady can't defend herself against the big guy with the club (or vegetable peeler), if she doesn't have a gun.
And no, there aren't enough police to be everywhere. :-\
Look a little closer at the example set by Australia. It wasn't just mass shootings, it was all about other violence.
The cure isn't more guns and more deaths. It's fewer guns and less of a "gun mentality". It's the mind set that a gun is the answer to everything that results in high levels of violence. Remove the mind set, and the violence decreases.
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... It's the mind set that a gun is the answer to everything that results in high levels of violence...
Point #7 in the Revocation of Independence (http://itzhakts.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/revocation-of-independence/) I posted earlier:
"You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you’re not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be handled by adults and then used solely for shooting grouse. If you’re not adult enough to sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you’re not ready to handle a gun, let alone shoot grouse."
Amen!
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"... Guns should only be handled by adults and then used solely for shooting grouse... "[/i]
I suspect PETA will object to that treatment of grouse. ;)
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I suspect PETA will object to that treatment of grouse. ;)
I think grouse is pretty safe, given the near impossibility that Americans well ever be able to "resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists." ;D
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... Are you convinced that "the people" are in favor of members of Congress and their aides being exempt from Obamacare?...
Russ, that's just another faux news from the long string of faux news from the Faux News:
That Congressional Exemption From Obamacare? Another Myth (http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/congressional-exemption-obamacare-another-myth-153149342.html)
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Yeah, you're right. That's what I get for being in a hurry and simplifying. They aren't exempt. They just get a special rebate to cover the thing. Same difference, Slobodan, and the people who wrote that piece know it as well as you and I do. A whole lot of people are pissed off about that situation. They're also pissed about the fact that businesses are exempt for a year from the mandate while they, as individuals, aren't. Maybe that liberal rag can try to explain that one away too.
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I know of one journalist who truly understands how decisions are made in Washington.
Here is her latest explanation:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/opinion/collins-frankenstein-goes-to-congress.html?ref=opinion&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/opinion/collins-frankenstein-goes-to-congress.html?ref=opinion&_r=0)
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One thing about the NYT, Eric, is that it's dependable. You always know what it's going to say on any political subject.
I'm not any happier with Cruz than Gail Collins is, but the idea that Republicans have lost track of the problem of entitlements just won't hold water. There's a very interesting article in this morning's WSJ by Niall Ferguson, that lays bare the real size of the coming entitlement catastrophe. It's a lot hairier than anybody seems to realize, and I suspect you're going to see a whole lot of Republican concern about entitlements in the coming bash over the debt limit, which is where the real war's going to be fought. As of now, as near as I can tell, having gotten past the idea that there's some way the House can shut down Obamacare on its own, even the Tea Partiers are concentrating on the two things I rattled Slobodan's chain about: congressional privilege and the personal mandate. And, since I don't get my "news" from TV or the NYT, I'm seeing more and more people unhappy that Obama won't even discuss those things. It's gonna cost him, big time.
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According to a number of sources, including our congressional representative, the House would easily vote to continue gov't funding without any conditions if only they could vote. But, Boehner won't call a vote. How exactly is this majority rule? How do a few dozen tea party nincompoops hold the entire country hostage in defiance of the will of the House and the people?
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Thanks for the links-good stuff -Well not as good as that nice who wants god to wage war on us all.
We live in FEAR we need more EDUCATION
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/jimmy-kimmel-obamacare-prank_n_4022424.html
I just talked with a climber who didn't get off El Cap until today. He said that he was not ticketed because they started up before the closure.
As far as who would be able to help them if they were in a life / death situation:
First many climbers are quite resourceful and able to rescue themselves - unless they can't. What about climbers who bivy on 3000 foot + faces on Baffin Island? Don screw up!
Now there are essential and non essential employees. Some of these essential workers are members of Yosemite Search and Rescue. Granted they are operating on a shoe string. All they need to do is make a call to some military base in the central valley to get a rescue going. The military is not shut down and they have some fine pilots.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/jimmy-kimmel-obamacare-prank_n_4022424.html
There you go, Russ, finally some sound support for the claim that "majority of Americans are against Obamacare" ;D
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Sound news sources = liberal? ???
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The Huffington Post is even more dependable than the NYT, Slobodan, and I wasn't disappointed. Those folks said exactly what the Huffington expected them to say.
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Well, Russ, it has nothing to do with Huffington, just with Jimmy Kimmel and average Americans on the street.
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Fear - Conspiracy Theory
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Well, Russ, it has nothing to do with Huffington, just with Jimmy Kimmel and average Americans on the street.
Slobodan, all I can do is quote the duke: "If you believe that, madam, you will believe anything."
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Look a little closer at the example set by Australia. It wasn't just mass shootings, it was all about other violence.
The cure isn't more guns and more deaths. It's fewer guns and less of a "gun mentality". It's the mind set that a gun is the answer to everything that results in high levels of violence. Remove the mind set, and the violence decreases.
Well, Russ, it has nothing to do with Huffington, just with Jimmy Kimmel and average Americans on the street.
Believe it or not, no human is perfect. :-\ I guess that means we won't have a perfect world either.
We still don't have a way for an old lady to defend herself without a gun against a strong hunk of muscle. Neither do we have a way to stop lies in our news and government. But we can use guns to stop mass shootings, minor violence, and much more. Guns are for stopping those who do not listen to the law already, but not a method for skipping the court system (if possible).
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According to a number of sources, including our congressional representative, the House would easily vote to continue gov't funding without any conditions if only they could vote. But, Boehner won't call a vote. How exactly is this majority rule? How do a few dozen tea party nincompoops hold the entire country hostage in defiance of the will of the House and the people?
Why would Boehner call a vote, Peter, when he knows Harry Reid won't allow a vote on any reasonable bill the House comes up with? The only way this is going to get back under control is if the Pres, the Dem leaders, and the Republican leaders sit down and thrash out a compromise. But neither the Pres nor Harry is willing to do that.
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Slobodan, all I can do is quote the duke: "If you believe that, madam, you will believe anything."
Russ, the the only reasonable interpretation of your position is that you believe that Huffington hired Jimmy Kimmel to do that video AND hired paid actors to pose as "average Americans" in the said video. Is that what you are suggesting?
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But we can use guns to...
We can crunch the numbers:
"Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/)"
"The risks of a gun in the home typically far outweigh the benefits (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/overall/)"
Across states, more guns = more homicide (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/)
etc etc
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Still, we still don't have a way for an old lady to defend herself without a gun against a strong hunk of muscle, or do we?
Do spoons make people fat?
Average homocide per weapon: http://scottkinmartin.com/post/40849734053/weapon-guide. I think we should ban alcohol. We know how well that worked in the past. ::)
Debt limit - fun link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li0no7O9zmE
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There have been two recent (within a year or so) mass shootings on US military bases. I've never been in the military, but I assume that a base has a fair number of people around who are competent with weapons. If they couldn't stop these guys, what are the odds of some little old lady or a school teacher being able to when the need arises?
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I don't like youtube (it absorbs to much time), so I looked it up online for an article. Basically, maybe Australia doesn't have the mass shootings.
The youtube clips are about much more than just arguing about gun violence:
The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pOiOhxujsE)
The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbY45rHj8w)
The Daily Show: John Oliver Investigates Gun Control in Australia - Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVuspKSjfgA)
You really should watch them. None of the stories I've read covers all of the points that John Oliver visits.
BUT, what about other violence? The cure for mass shootings is more individuals who carry guns, to stop the shootings before they make progress. The old lady can't defend herself against the big guy with the club (or vegetable peeler), if she doesn't have a gun.
Somehow I don't think that a gun in the purse of the little old lady is going to make any difference but that's just me. I'd argue that if a big guy with a club jumped on you and caught you by surprise that your gun wouldn't do you any good either - except maybe to give the bad guy something to shoot you with. Point being that if someone really wants to cause you harm that there is little you can do about it. So that leaves the only thing that you can do is to stop living in fear by not acknowledging it and abandoning instruments of fear.
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There have been two recent (within a year or so) mass shootings on US military bases. I've never been in the military, but I assume that a base has a fair number of people around who are competent with weapons. If they couldn't stop these guys, what are the odds of some little old lady or a school teacher being able to when the need arises?
By direction of the President (in this case it was Clinton) all military installations in the U.S. are "gun free zones." The only people allowed to carry weapons are the cops. If you bother to check, Robert, you'll find that all of the mass shootings, including the military shootings, have been in "gun free zones." In a "gun free zone" the only guy with a gun is the murderer.
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Russ, the the only reasonable interpretation of your position is that you believe that Huffington hired Jimmy Kimmel to do that video AND hired paid actors to pose as "average Americans" in the said video. Is that what you are suggesting?
You don't understand that these things are edited? Slobodan, if you go out on the street with a movie camera and lights, especially if you do it in a big city, every crank in sight is going to rush over so he or she can be on TV. It won't take long to demonstrate that a majority of citizens believe the moon is made of green cheese.
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By direction of the President (in this case it was Clinton) all military installations in the U.S. are "gun free zones." The only people allowed to carry weapons are the cops. If you bother to check, Robert, you'll find that all of the mass shootings, including the military shootings, have been in "gun free zones." In a "gun free zone" the only guy with a gun is the murderer.
Most american inner cities (and non-american for that matter) aren't "gun-free zones", lots of shootings there, so it can't just be that. Got to be more to it.
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I just wanted to apologize for my last thread entry. I too easily fall into cynicism and I am actively trying not to in my life, despite all the temptations. That previous entry would only lead the discussion into a pointless direction.
Let me address this it in a different way. There seems to be lots of people (I mean generally, not just on this thread) who advocate for the arming of the average citizen including specifically school teachers. We're not talking about Kabul here, or a Mexican cartel drug town, or some other 4th world hell hole with no civil authority on which you can depend and where citizenship seems to be breaking down, we're talking about modern day United States. Does it not worry you that you think it's a good idea to advocate that little old ladies have to pack iron or that school teachers should be trained in gun combat? Leave aside the question of whether or not that could actually work in practice (you can probably guess how I feel about that), doesn't it worry you that you think this is a good idea or even that you think it's necessary?
What's the end game in this scenario? All citizens walking around with guns at the ready (safeties off?) just in care some bad guy enters the scene, is this what you envisage? Do you honestly think this is a good thing? Is that a place where you want your society to go?
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Recently in Florida there was a car chase. The car stopped and the police surrounded it. Despite the fact that the driver was unarmed and not doing anything threatening, they opened fire and let off over 100 rounds. A few of them actually hit the suspect. The remainder went flying off who-knows-where and, among other things, seriously wounded a couple of bystanders. This was trained cops facing an unarmed person - and we are seriously asked to believe that Joe Citizen with his 2 hour concealed carry course at the gun shop will actually be able to help in a truly dangerous situation?
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I don't know why someone would deny another persons right to protect themselves and their family.
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Recently in Florida there was a car chase. The car stopped and the police surrounded it. Despite the fact that the driver was unarmed and not doing anything threatening, they opened fire and let off over 100 rounds. A few of them actually hit the suspect. The remainder went flying off who-knows-where and, among other things, seriously wounded a couple of bystanders. This was trained cops facing an unarmed person - and we are seriously asked to believe that Joe Citizen with his 2 hour concealed carry course at the gun shop will actually be able to help in a truly dangerous situation?
Joe Citizen doesn't chase cars, pull them over and start shooting. Yes, there are plenty of cop shops in the US that could stand a lot of retraining. But what you're saying is: keep guns out of the hands of the cops and Joe Citizen and only allow murderous criminals to have them?
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I don't know why someone would deny another persons right to protect themselves and their family.
I think you do.
Someone would deny that persons rights, when exercising those rights infringes other peoples rights.
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Most american inner cities (and non-american for that matter) aren't "gun-free zones", lots of shootings there, so it can't just be that. Got to be more to it.
Right, in the inner cities gangs rumble and drug dealers shoot it out. Most sane humans stay out of those zones. It's interesting that New York City became probably the safest city in the U.S. once Giuliani arranged for the cops and the courts actually to start enforcing the law.
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Average homocide per weapon
The cartoon makes a false comparison: "average" deaths per year are shown for auto accidents and drunk driving, but not for firearms.
The caricature "average" homicide numbers don't seem to match the record:
Firearm—In 2009, 31,347 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18 and 19), accounting for 17.7% of all injury deaths that year. The two major component causes of all firearm injury deaths in 2009 were suicide (59.8%) and homicide (36.7%). Firearm injuries (all intents) decreased 1.9% from 2008 to 2009. The age-adjusted death rate for firearm suicide did not change from 2008, whereas the death rate for firearm homicide decreased 5.0% in 2009 from 2008.
National Vital Statistics Report (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf) pdf Deaths: Final Data for 2009
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The topic was National Parks Closure.
Discussion of guns (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=73290.0) has already been done and closed, and nothing new is being said here.
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Most sane humans stay out of those zones.
Some of us have skills and wealth and find that doors are open to us.
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Ah yes, another believer in the myth that poverty causes crime. Even a quick perusal of the history of the great depression should be enough to dispel that idea.
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The topic was National Parks Closure.
Discussion of guns (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=73290.0) has already been done and closed, and nothing new is being said here.
Quite correct. I regret getting caught up in this.
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Most sane humans stay out of those zones.
Some of us have skills and wealth and find that doors are open to us.
Ah yes, another believer in the myth that poverty causes crime. Even a quick perusal of the history of the great depression should be enough to dispel that idea.
No, just another observer that nightly TV news shows ordinary people being killed by cross-fire and drive-by-shootings which send bullets through the walls of their homes. They don't get to "stay out of those zones".
Anything to say about National Parks closure?
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Ah yes, another believer in the myth that poverty causes crime. Even a quick perusal of the history of the great depression should be enough to dispel that idea.
Poverty is a crime?
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How do a few dozen tea party nincompoops hold the entire country hostage in defiance of the will of the House and the people?
Short answer -- gerrymandered safe seats, immune from challenges by the other party; "challenges come from within their own parties and that tends to drive them further right or left".
Longer answer -- "A series of self-inflicted errors by the two political parties (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24433182) over the past 40 years have left party leaders with no whip and little power."
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"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else"
Winston Churchill
;)
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Poverty is a crime?
There's a large group of reality-detached people, Stamper, who believe that poverty causes crime. They believe that if you take enough money from people who've worked and earned it and give it to people who don't work, and are poverty-stricken, you'll eliminate crime. That this is ridiculous on the face of it doesn't penetrate, because in college that's the theory they memorized and parroted back, and if reality doesn't fit theory, reality must be wrong.
There was far more poverty during the great depression than there's been since, but there was, relatively, a lot less crime. The theorists won't face that fact because it would blow their theory to hell.
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Just off the top of my head, no academic papers or theories behind, the three most crime-ridden cities (per-capita) are Camden (New Jersey), Flint and Detroit (Michigan). It must be a pure statistical fluke then that they are also some of the most poverty-stricken areas in the US?
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No fluke at all, Slobodan, those are three of the cities where large amounts of taxpayer money are being handed out to help reduce crime, now without any work requirement. The result has been broken families, drug dependency, and schools that can't teach. I grew up in a suburb of Detroit. When I left in 1951 Detroit was a beautiful city. Nowadays the only way I'd go downtown in Detroit would be if I were in a Hummer with a quad fifty mounted on it.
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Detroit does feature in the National Park Service's National Register of Historic Places but that's currently unavailable -- http://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/detroit/
Contingency Plans for Operations in the Absence of Appropriations (http://www.doi.gov/shutdown/index.cfm)
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Unfortunately, most inner city dwellers know little about how to live, how to save money, how to work hard, and how to keep clean: not all, but many. This results in a lack of money and run down buildings, because it often takes money to earn money. And yes, they don't learn how to work or save money, when the government provides for them. Teaching them that they are just elevated monkeys doesn't help either, because animals do whatever they want, and they have no reason to value others. That isn't even scientific! According to Science Daily, scientific method "is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning, the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses." Yet, no scientist has every been able to give an example of absolute nothing becoming something. See more at Evolution vs God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ#t=175).
Yes, there are some youtube movies I have been convinced to watch. :o
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Oh, dear Lord (metaphorically)! How much drivel can this thread bear!?
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Re: National Parks Closure
« Reply #105 on: Today at 08:18:12 PM »
ReplyReply
Unfortunately, most inner city dwellers know little about how to live, how to save money, how to work hard, and how to keep clean: not all, but many. This results in a lack of money and run down buildings, because it often takes money to earn money. And yes, they don't learn how to work or save money, when the government provides for them. Teaching them that they are just elevated monkeys doesn't help either, because animals do whatever they want, and they have no reason to value others.
How do I phrase this politely??
OK GAME OVER - MICHAEL PLEASE CLOSE
I'm certainly no expert when it comes to lens optics or software design. But this is not not true. Your perspective is off and you don't know it. Poverty does not always make sense and your explanation is just plain wrong and opinionated. Obviously you have no connection what so ever with the subject. It is OK not to understand but don't try and contrive your own tiny world perspective. Sorry to have to be so direct and I guess Rude.
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If someone loses a job and can't find one and they don't get financial help then in order to live stealing becomes an option? The threat of being jailed isn't frightening because if it happens then they will have a roof over their head and three square meals a day which they couldn't purchase otherwise. Obviously some people think they are immune from poverty because they have a "dependable" job. Unfortunately many intelligent and hard working people have ended up in the gutter. Some compassion for your fellow human being is needed because ANYONE can end up there. With regards to comparing people to monkeys then this is seriously deranged talk. :o
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So... about the national parks... does anyone still think that's a serious problem when compared with all the other parts of your society that is suffering as a result of some politicians not having learnt to play by the rules?
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I see most people in NPs as interlopers, not all, but dang near to the person,
monkeys aren't as good a metaphor as goats-
Let me explain...
A goat is a goat-never will you expect the goat to learn to wait its turn, or to be polite, or to care in the least what happens to you.
You can see it as they're assaulting small children, old people, and the just dumb...
They just don't care, not mad, not anything, just don't care...if you make friends with them somehow, well then you may come out of any interaction without huffing and puffing, but more than likely, if you go into the field with my goats, you are gonna get the worse end of it.
Many visitors to tourist destinations act like my goats-
when I have open studio, I like to have a goat tied out front, keeps the human goats from looking so well, goatlike to me
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.... With regards to comparing people to monkeys then this is seriously deranged talk. :o
He had in mind a widespread simplification of the theory of evolution, ie, that humans evolved from monkeys. Not that I condone the context he used it in.
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So... about the national parks... does anyone still think that's a serious problem when compared with all the other parts of your society that is suffering as a result of some politicians not having learnt to play by the rules?
Sunny, if you were to read the Constitution you'd understand that these ARE the rules. People seem to think what's going on is some kind of aberration. History will tell you that's not true.
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ONCE AGAIN PLEASE CLOSE THREAD
Yes. It's pretty evident that cluelessness is contagious.
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ONCE AGAIN PLEASE CLOSE THREAD
You do realize that, as the one who started the thread, you have the power to close it? Not that I suggest you should.
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... these ARE the rules...
Russ, many criminals walked away free based on technicalities, ie, strict following of rules. So, you are right, this seems to be just another example ;)
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You do realize that, as the one who started the thread, you have the power to close it? Not that I suggest you should.
So that's what the "Lock topic" link at the bottom-left of the page is for!
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Yet, no scientist has every been able to give an example of absolute nothing becoming something.
Please give an example of "absolute nothing".
What is the weight in pounds of the color green?
When you ask grammatically correct questions that make no sense, the problem is with the question not the answer.
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Russ, many criminals walked away free based on technicalities, ie, strict following of rules.
And you think that's caused by the Constitution? If so, Slobodan, how about enlightening us and explaining the connection.
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Please start a topic "US Political opinions"
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So, lets Obama do whatever he want? If u go to Grand Canyon do U have to pay or its free? I think I paid last time I forgot my NP pass..So its NOT free. why is closed?
Why I need to pay more for my ins? Do u ever read?
Oh sorry the Messiah promise he will take care the blind and all will see ..Wow, they really can see, but no those the love him, and keep thinking he its the real messiah, in fail to open those the do not want to see to open their eyes..He is just a liar!
God Bless ME..U have your bless with him, so U do not need it..
Can i burn out your house nooooo,can I get free cell phone in med and can I buy drug with the cash i get..why no? sure.Can i get more BC, I decide people the work, are working to much now, in I just want to be here with section 8 for free, in I want a big 80" tv can i do that..sure, why not?
If its free, lets punish those the not want it free just want to work to eat. Oh BOY, I think I will go soon for free, oh in I want more cell phone the new one..if Not i get mad and u pay!
no, that's not the way politics needs to work. This action is being undertaken by a minority of half of the legislature who is holding everyone else hostage. The leadership is afraid of the minority so they won't let a clean funding bill come to the floor. If they did, all Democrats would vote for it and a handful of the remaining reasonable Republicans would vote for it. These ideologues have tried and failed many times to overturn The Affordable Care Act through the proper legislative channels, but they don't have the votes, so now they are going to hold all other government programs hostage. That isn't okay. That isn't how a Democracy works. That is how a Democracy fails.
Don't make false equivalence here. There are a couple dozen people who are to blame here. In this debacle, they happen to be Republicans.
http://pressthink.org/2013/10/the-production-of-innocence-in-the-reporting-of-american-politics-a-pressthink-analysis/
https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/385468973971951616
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I can see I wasted my opening salvo, so here we go...
this has nothing to do with immigrant policy.
It is a health carte debate.
This has nothing to do with the three equal branches of govt. the issue was decided by at least 2/3 of them, and half or more of the remaining third.
So,
this really is about the stupid goat in the white house isn't it?
That dumb field goat had his head down in the grass for too long,
we don't need to listen to that stupid goat.
He's just a dumb goat...
so no,
you 14% of the electorate don't get it your own way,
wahhhh says the 14%
we don't ebven know why but wahhhhh
ps, single payer universal health care is the only thing I'll be satisfied with.
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Please start a topic "US Political opinions"
Isaac,
This topic was started with a very political angle. The very political angle is at the core of the national park closure and the government shutdown. So, unless you want this topic to be ONLY about national park closure from a non-political angle, eg., what are the best paths to bypass ramps at the entrance to national parks, people will continue with political discussions.
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The very political angle is at the core of the national park closure and the government shutdown.
I agree; but whatever initial connection to NP closure or the government shutdown there might have been has gone.
Why not start a new topic for those who wish to quarrel about US politics in general?
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Maybe you can start saying IF we pay to go to OURS land as Grand Canyon, why its closed?
Its enough people paying to go in see, so why its closed..Arcadia its closed BUT no really they can't closed it.
its OURS land no the the president or anyone else land..who give it to them? They ALL mean ALL should be fired and impeach, maybe NEXT one learn we paying them to do a JOB no to control ALL.
Wow wow wow, amen to me! U agree? please say yes..hey its like present agreeing with me..life its so short U should always agree with me..wow again!!!!!!
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Now, THIS is a real tragedy of the government shutdown:
Shutdown closes tap on new beers (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/09/shutdown-closes-the-tap-on-new-beers/2955673/)
From the article:
FORT COLLINS, Colo. -- The federal government shutdown is giving some folks one more reason to cry in their beers: An obscure but powerful arm of the Treasury Department has stopped approving new brews...
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What a joke! Coors sold beer only inside Colorado for a long time before it went national. Used to drive me nuts that I couldn't get Coors outside the state. If the new breweries in Colorado would do the same thing for now, they could tell the feds to stick it.
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... Used to drive me nuts that I couldn't get Coors outside the state...
You are in a good company then. Rumor has it that Henry Kissinger used to fly it to the White House.
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You'd be surprised to know how much Coors got moved from bases like Denver's Lowry to other bases by military aircraft back in the old days.
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Politics and Coors- :D
That particular coors scent ah yeah, like at the glue factory auction,
I'll never see a coors again without immediately thinking "redneck"
or "wannabe"
too many drunk jacks and rednecks.
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If you happen to have a P.O. box in ZIP code 95389, which serves Yosemite Valley, as some of my friends do, the young ranger, one of the few still working, is obliged to let you pass, and you may execute a hard right-hand turn around the traffic cones and pull back onto the Yosemite loop road.
NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/16/opinion/climbing-beyond-boehners-reach.html) October 15, 2013
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NO the tax payers own the land. WE pay the bills so we own the land they just protect it. Since the government had no right to close us off from public lands they all should be fired. The Head of the Forst Service, Nat'l Park should have stood forward and demanded they the President had no Right what so ever to shut down the lands the Tax payers own. WE pay for the up keep, and the salaries. Its the problem very few people will stand up for what's RIGHT. Tim
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NO the tax payers own the land. WE pay the bills so we own the land they just protect it. Since the government had no right to close us off from public lands they all should be fired. The Head of the Forst Service, Nat'l Park should have stood forward and demanded they the President had no Right what so ever to shut down the lands the Tax payers own. WE pay for the up keep, and the salaries. Its the problem very few people will stand up for what's RIGHT. Tim
Is not (one core) problem in the US that it is actually not (only) the tax-payers that pay for things (and thus owns it)? You seem to be maxing out your credit cards, meaning that China and other nations (in the end) will "own" your land?
There seems to be fundamentally two ways to avoid this:
1: pay more tax
2: reduce spending
(there probably are some other options, like "attack some middle-eastern country and seize their oil", but lets not get into that)
I am endlessly fascinated by the US. We share so much culture (movies, games, the internet) that one might think that we are the same people. Yet, in many ways we seem to live on different planets. How is it possible for a two-party system to have so much apparent hatred for the other party? How is it possible to have so much apparent hatred for your allies and commercial/cultural partners ("socialist hell Sweden")? How is it possible to think that sending your boys out to die in an unjust and massively expensive war on the other side of the globe is ok, but giving all people basic health-care or denying people access to automatic weapons (that no-one could think about at the time of your constitution, neither could they envision nuclear weapons) is a crime that should be punished by any means necessary? What are the mechanisms that led to US restaurants advertising the weight of their burgers/steaks as a prominent feature?
Whatever the stance on US healthcare (and frankly, it is not my health nor my money), I think that this situation has been a sad thing for the US politicial system, as well as both parties.
-h
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... the lands the Tax payers own. WE pay for the up keep...
Ahmmm... You do realize that "we" stopped paying for the upkeep 16 days ago?
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How is it possible for a two-party system to have so much apparent hatred for the other party?
How is civil war possible? (It obviously has been possible in many parts of the world.)
Perhaps this article will help you understand some of the background -- The Roots of the Government Shutdown (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/roots-government-shutdown).
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NO the tax payers own the land. WE pay the bills so we own the land they just protect it. Since the government had no right to close us off from public lands they all should be fired. The Head of the Forst Service, Nat'l Park should have stood forward and demanded they the President had no Right what so ever to shut down the lands the Tax payers own. WE pay for the up keep, and the salaries. Its the problem very few people will stand up for what's RIGHT. Tim
I am taxpayer too and I have an opposite opinion, so stop your arrogant "WE"
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How is civil war possible? (It obviously has been possible in many parts of the world.)
Perhaps this article will help you understand some of the background -- The Roots of the Government Shutdown (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/roots-government-shutdown).
Thanks, Isaac. That's one of the more reasoned articles I've seen. Friedman hits the nail on the head when he lays the blame for a lot of our current political problems on the switch to primary elections for candidate selection. That shift made it possible for liars and charlatans to sway ignorant masses. We've been paying the price ever since. He forgot to mention the change in 1913 between appointment of senators by state legislatures to election at large, which has produced a similar fiasco.
As an aside, those who believe the animosity in our current congress is at an historic high don't know their history.
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How is civil war possible?...
And in absence of one, there is always a class warfare.
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He forgot to mention...
... the self-segregation of the population into look-alike think-alike outer suburban communities and big-data; both of which make gerrymandering much easier and so effective that politicians select voters, not vice versa.
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So the picture was clearer when state legislatures appointed Senators. Right?
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How is civil war possible? (It obviously has been possible in many parts of the world.)
I believe that it is possible when a state is "poorly" run, e.g. when power and wealth is considered to be badly distributed, when those at power use that power in ways that the population finds unacceptable, when there are large cultural/religious divides and in periods of economic/security instability.
Even though the US has its problems (like all of us) I did not think that it was a candidate for civil war. I still don't.
Perhaps this article will help you understand some of the background -- The Roots of the Government Shutdown (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/roots-government-shutdown).
Thank you for that link. It will take some digesting.
The most puzzling part (for me) is the "winner takes it all" system. Why should any democratic system promote anything but the "one man, one vote" ideal? And if we assume that party politics currently dominates the political outcome, the most important goal should be that if 51% of the people vote "republican", then the republicans should get to decide. Then all politicians would have insentives to face the people (wherever they live), and not only in some areas where the opinion is divided.
-h
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The most puzzling part (for me) is the "winner takes it all" system.
Why America doesn't work (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24712433)
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Why America doesn't work (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24712433)
America works perfectly fine for those who run it. You just need to be part of the club.
Cheers,
Bernard
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One result of the winner-takes-all system is that an elective majority is different from a governing majority. Even if theoretically elected to unfettered power, the majority must assuage the minority, or risk getting nothing done. FDR understood this well; not every President has. Some political entities in the U.S. have played with representational apportionment, but this risks weak governments which are able to act only when a consensus exists. Actually, not so different from the present. In the end, no system guarantees a "good" outcome. It always depends on the people elected to make it work. The current weakness of the US government is simply a reflection of deeply-felt values that differ widely. Expect nothing to change until a national consensus arises.
The flux you are seeing now has existed in varying degrees since the old consensus was shattered by the Viet Nam War. The lasting legacy of that war is the deepened distrust of the national government. In fact, to a lot of people, a government that cannot govern is a desirable outcome.
This should be taken with salt,
Dale