Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: John Camp on September 12, 2013, 03:50:49 pm
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There's a link on DP Review to Michael's GX7 field report, but I can't find the report on this site. Where is it? There are some interesting discussable remarks in the report.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52152389
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Yes, a good write-up. Every photographer's priorities and needs are different, so I don't necessarily feel the same about some of the features (or lack of a feature) as does Michael, but I always appreciate that he evaluates cameras as tools to make photographs, and not as lab equipment designed to replicate test charts.
That said, I really don't understand the concern about not being able to use IBIS with OIS equipped lenses. Why does it matter? It's not as if the IBIS offers some enhanced capability that OIS doesn't offer. (Oly's 5-way IBIS may, but the GX7 doesn't have that system.) Panasonic has been quoted as saying that their IBIS is not as effective as their OIS, so I don't see why anyone would want to choose IBIS over OIS when the choice exists.
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> Unlike the top-of-the-line GH3 which is the size of an APS-C sized DSLR, the GX7 is true to the MFT gestalt
what gestalt ? the first ever m43 camera was APS-C like camera... m43 gestalt is less mechanics and optics inside the body, everything else is just a result... that's it.
> I know that it's hard to believe here in 2013, but Panasonic apparently forgot, or never knew, that ISO is the third exposure variable
another "levels in ETTR"... "ISO" is a postprocessing parameter (that you set in advance), not exposure variable
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Here it is...
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/panasonic_gx7_review.shtml
Michael
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... "ISO" is a postprocessing parameter (that you set in advance), not exposure variable
Same difference.
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Same difference.
no, it is not... "ISO" (gain) is a postprocessing (in term of what happens w/ charge accumulated in sensel wells after the exposure is already finished) that you select before the exposure (and that's the source of confusion)... you know (shall know) that in some cameras "ISO" is just a tag in a raw file (no analog/digital gain applied)... even the mere fact that in some implementations that gain selection might affect the well capacity (at least what hardware/firmware will allow us to measure) does not make gain a part of exposure (mythical "third exposure variable" in addition to exposure time and aperture)... one of many parts in decision how to set 2 (two) exposure variables (exposure time and aperture) - yes, part of exposure - no.
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no, it is not...
Then you do not understand the meaning of the phrase "same difference."
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Then you do not understand the meaning of the phrase "same difference."
well then may be you explain us ? or do you know that in some cameras when you selected different "creative" modes - that also affects how camera meters (suggests 2 exposure parameters : exposure time and aperture and affects the OOC - just like ISO does)... so are you going to call that a 4th variable of exposure ? and we can continue and count 5th and 6th and so on... there is a difference between what exposure is (exposure time and aperture) and what you take into account (a lot of things) when you decide (or agree w/ what firmware suggest you) about those 2 real exposure components.
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well then may be you explain us ?...
Ok, here it goes. The phrase has two parts, "same" and "difference," the meaning of each is as follows:
"difference" = yes, you are technically correct, thus we accept there is a difference
"same" = nobody gives a shit damn that you are technically correct.
Clear now?
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Ok, here it goes. The phrase has two parts, "same" and "difference," the meaning of each is as follows:
"difference" = yes, you are technically correct, thus we accept there is a difference
"same" = nobody gives a shit that you are technically correct.
Clear now?
Geez, why such negative posts. The language really stinks up a nice site like this.
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The fatal flaw for Panasonic in the USA is their complete and utter lack of customer support. Repairs go missing for many months, nobody ever answers a phone, replacement parts aren't available, accessories aren't available, etc, etc, etc. Anybody doing any serious photography that might occasionally need some sort of customer support or repair should stay far away from Panasonic here in the USA. It's unfortunate because some of their cameras are actually quite good given the limitations of m43.
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Michael,
What I don't understand is how you can sub-label your review "the best MFT yet" and never mention the new OMD-EM1 offering from Olympus? Sure, it is not technically out yet, but there are a number of reviews already posted on the web and all are very positive. But, not even a mention of it seems strange.
Neil
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Ok, here it goes. The phrase has two parts, "same" and "difference," the meaning of each is as follows:
"difference" = yes, you are technically correct, thus we accept there is a difference
"same" = nobody gives a shit that you are technically correct.
Clear now?
yawn... go post something polical in a coffer corner, that you can do better and we do agree there sometimes.
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... "the best MFT yet" and never mention the new OMD-EM1 offering from Olympus? Sure, it is not technically out yet...
Yet, you do not see the irony?
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yawn... go post something polical in a coffer corner, that you can do better and we do agree there sometimes.
Sure. I've been planning for some time to open a topic there on hairsplitting bullies, unnecessary hairsplitting, or hairsplitting for hairsplitting sake. I am sure you, Isaac, and professorgb will be happy to contribute. ;)
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well then may be you explain us ? or do you know that in some cameras when you selected different "creative" modes - that also affects how camera meters (suggests 2 exposure parameters : exposure time and aperture and affects the OOC - just like ISO does)... so are you going to call that a 4th variable of exposure ? and we can continue and count 5th and 6th and so on... there is a difference between what exposure is (exposure time and aperture) and what you take into account (a lot of things) when you decide (or agree w/ what firmware suggest you) about those 2 real exposure components.
In my alternate universe, which I think is shared by most photographers, your ISO chimera is THE unique setting determining exposure - which in my book is the total number of photons reaching the sensor. Regardless of shooting mode, aperture and shutter speed selections are manipulated up or down either internally or externally to achieve the same sensor photon density for your desired outcome.
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Ok, here it goes. The phrase has two parts, "same" and "difference," the meaning of each is as follows:
"difference" = yes, you are technically correct, thus we accept there is a difference
"same" = nobody gives a shit damn that you are technically correct.
Clear now?
Now that's among the most succinct, and blunt, summations of pedantry I've ever seen. Good job.
-Dave-
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Ok. Well, I'm for one looking forward to the GX7. I love the rangefinder-like shape (& VF placement) and the reduced vertical size relative to my E-M5 and the upcoming E-M1. I agree with Michael that the lack of IBIS (sensor-based stabilization) when shooting video is a significant blunder that Panasonic can hopefully address via firmware update. No Auto-ISO in manual mode...also a blunder, at least for people who do use ISO as an exposure variable. ;) Also hopefully addressed via firmware update. ETC (proper 1920x1080 video, no binning or line-skipping) mode...great idea. Seems to me the GX7 and 20mm lens make a great pocketable combo...this is mostly how I intend to use it anyway.
-Dave-
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Michael,
What I don't understand is how you can sub-label your review "the best MFT yet" and never mention the new OMD-EM1 offering from Olympus? Sure, it is not technically out yet, but there are a number of reviews already posted on the web and all are very positive. But, not even a mention of it seems strange.
Neil
Unlike many bloggers, Michael doesn't seem to write about cameras he hasn't actually used yet.... How would you expect him to do a comparison between a camera he has used extensively, and one that he hasn't?
Patience, grasshopper.
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No Auto-ISO in manual mode...also a blunder, at least for people who do use ISO as an exposure variable. ;)
Too bad Panasonic forgot that in English, manual actually means auto. :)
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Too bad Panasonic forgot that in English, manual actually means auto. :)
Yeah, I caught that after I posted. :) Pentax actually has an explicit TAv mode that varies ISO in accordance with shutter and aperture values. On the Nikons I've used, and on the Oly E-M5, manual mode isn't truly manual if ISO is set to Auto. Same with the Fuji X-E1 except that unlike the others it disables exposure compensation...foolish.
-Dave-
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Michael,
What I don't understand is how you can sub-label your review "the best MFT yet" and never mention the new OMD-EM1 offering from Olympus? Sure, it is not technically out yet, but there are a number of reviews already posted on the web and all are very positive. But, not even a mention of it seems strange.
Neil
It would have made no sense for me to include the E-M1, for several reasons.
Firstly, the camera didn't even officially exist until last Monday. The GX7 review was conducted and written weeks ago.
Secondly, even though there are reports out there, they in no way allow me to make any claims about the camera myself. I didn't even have the E-M1 in my hands until last night. Now I have a sample for review, and will be publishing a rolling review starting in a few days.
Which is better? We'll see.
Michael
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I didn't even have the E-M1 in my hands until last night. Now I have a sample for review, and will be publishing a rolling review starting in a few days.
It must be nice to get hold of all the new toys as soon as they come out. ;D
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a rolling review starting in a few days
I look forward to it! Your camera and lens reviews are always interesting, even though I'm not looking for a new camera and even though the lenses cost more than I will ever pay.
Incidentally, luminous-landscape is listed under "Gear Reviews" in Visual Poetry: A Creative Guide for Making Engaging Digital Photographs (http://books.google.com/books?id=QAxiJS_cCSkC&lpg=PP1&dq=%22visual%20poetry%22&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=luminous%20landscape&f=false).
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I am certainly interested in the GX7. It is the first m43 camera that is in any way the successor to the DMC-L1. Unfortunately, I have a real love/hate relationship with that camera. Here's hoping the GX7 expunges the hate items.
Electronic shutter is THE killer feature of this camera. I am likely to get one just because of it. A silent camera (except for the sound of the iris stopping down) is HUGE when doing wedding and event photography.
But that E-M1 has my heart.
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Electronic shutter is THE killer feature of this camera. I am likely to get one just because of it. A silent camera (except for the sound of the iris stopping down) is HUGE when doing wedding and event photography.
it is not a global shutter and as such it takes around 1/10 sec to expose/read all rows in sensor, no flash possible... so do you still want that for wedding and events ? electronic first curtain shutter (like sony SLTs) is way more useful... this one is useful for still life only... GH3 for example has it, not impressed for anything that moves a little
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If that is the case, you are correct in that it defeats the purpose. Sony's method of electronic first curtain is likely the best available right now.
1/10 second? Can you say "jello?"
Otherwise...
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Michael,
What I don't understand is how you can sub-label your review "the best MFT yet" and never mention the new OMD-EM1 offering from Olympus? Sure, it is not technically out yet, but there are a number of reviews already posted on the web and all are very positive. But, not even a mention of it seems strange.
Neil
I've argued here before that *the* critical feature of m43 is camera/lens/system size. You can buy excellent cameras from major makers with more extensive systems than m43 (Nikon, for example) with better sensors and for less cost than the big m43 entries (24mp Nikon D7100 for $1,146.95m at B&H.) And the thing about the EM1 (like the DH3) is that in terms of size, it's getting up into that DSLR territory...it's a bit smaller and lighter, but not so you'd really notice. And it's stuck with that absurd penta-prism housing...So if you want M43's killer app, so to speak, you need to seriously consider the GX7, because it's still quite small, and has some compact but high quality prime lenses available. As for IBIS, I spent the best part of 40 years shooting cameras without IBIS, and managed to get sharp photos on a pretty regular basis. It's nice, but not critical, as far as I'm concerned; besides, I have quite a few Panny IS lenses. The auto-ISO issue is more important to me, but if you put a gun to my head, I'd have to admit that I can live without that, too. But for the places that I'd want to use m43, size is the main issue; otherwise, I'd go to the D800.
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John, I have to disagree with your argument to an extent. Size & weight are certainly factors in choosing m43 gear, but for me the real deal-makers are the use of EVFs and the accuracy (at least under the conditions I care about) of sensor-based AF. With the exception of the Big Blob Pentax, which in my use is a fun but ultimately niche camera, I've had it with D-SLRs. Too many AF annoyances, too much manual focusing hassle. Since I rarely shoot critters racing or soaring through the landscape, the current superiority of PD-AF for continuous tracking doesn't matter. Stuff like seeing histograms & color balance setting in the VF does matter. Being able to precisely manually focus using the VF matters. Thus--and since I don't make big prints (bigger than 15x20" or so, that is) and have no interest in doing so--I chose the system that checks off, for me, the most boxes. The fact that some of the lenses happen to be stonking good doesn't hurt either.
I speak only for myself. YMMV. Etc.
-Dave-
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I have to take issue, at least partially, with John's post, too.
Cameras like the GH3 are close in size to the smallest DSLRs, but in terms of build-quality, features and many performance areas they're more competitive with mid-range and better DSLRS (though certainly not pro-level ones). A GH3 may be the same size as an EOS Rebel, but that camera is more realistically compared to something like the G5, which is smaller still. Compare a GH3 to a 7D, or 70D, and it's quite a bit smaller. Add a couple of f/2.8 zooms to each system, and the difference is magnified.
For what it offers, a GH3 kit is still quite compact.
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GX7 looks a lot more interesting than the E-P5 (for numerous reasons)
EM-1 price is quite silly really (for European buyers)
Maybe it's just me but I think Panasonic are being more aggressive and better priced in my part of the world.
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Micheal,
Thank you for that explanation.
Neil
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It must be nice to get hold of all the new toys as soon as they come out. ;D
While true, and fun, it's also a huge amount of work. Doing a proper field report takes at least 40-60 hours of research and writing, not to mention shooting, which is the fun part.
Michael