Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: Rob C on August 30, 2013, 01:09:37 pm
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I'm facing the need to get a new computer to replace my photography/Photoshop one that's in its death throes.
I'n not a computer-interested/savvy person at all, and had the dying one made up from a list of 'requirements' I found on an advertisment almost ten years ago. It worked well enough until now...
The shop where I had the original made up has offered me two 'stock' models that cost about half what I actually paid for the old one, and with a lot more memory etc.
My needs are relatively simple: I use a D700 and have no need to make files larger than I require for A3+ prints. I enclose the two offers I received, and perhaps someone could suggest whether the component brands/power are okay for my photography requirements, are even from reliable makers - I certainly don't have the background to make an informed decision on that for myself.
Any information would be appreciated. Sorry about language, but I think it's fairly clear what the parts are. I hope!
Rob C, with thanks.
Offer 1:
Caja B-MOVE Caja Minitorre mATX Thyra 500w Negra
Placa Base Asus Placa Base P8H61-MX USB3
CPU Intel Core i5-3470 3.2 Ghz 6Mb LGA1155 Ivy 22nm
Memoria Kingston KVR13N9S8/4 4GB DDR3 1333MHz Single Rank
Disco Duro Western Digital WD10EZEX 1TB SATA3 64MB Blue
T. Gráfica Asus VGA NVIDIA GTX650-E-1GD5 1GB DDR5
Optico LG GH24NS95 DVD-RW Interna 24x SATA Negra OEM
S. Operativo Microsoft Windows 8 64 bits 1pk DSP OEI DVD
Su precio es de: 649,28€ IVA Incluido.
Offer 2:
Caja B-MOVE Caja Minitorre mATX Thyra 500w Negra
Placa Base Asus Placa Base B85M-G mATX LGA1150
CPU Intel Core i5-4570 3.2Ghz 6Mb 22nm LGA1150 BOX
Memoria Kingston KVR16N11/8 8GB DDR3 1600MHz
Disco Duro Western Digital WD10EZEX 1TB SATA3 64MB Blue
T. Gráfica Asus VGA NVIDIA GTX650-E-1GD5 1GB DDR5
Optico LG GH24NS95 DVD-RW Interna 24x SATA Negra OEM
S. Operativo Microsoft Windows 8 64 bits 1pk DSP OEI DVD
Su Precio es de: 817,46€ IVA Incluido.
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One word: Mac.
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One word: Mac.
+1
Make it a mini....
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I was afraid I'd read that!
Mac, on this island of Mallorca, is an almost unknown quantity. The only firm (a photographic dealership based in Barcelona) that I know handled the brand has since closed its local wholesale outlet and I can't go there anymore. Prices for Mac at the time I was buying were also very very elevated, and now I am no longer able to put anything against tax...
PC worked very well for me; it's just that this machine of mine has pretty much worn itself out. I also need to be able to use Photoshop 6, and that can be done - I'm promised - on Windows 8 by installing another programme that can be opened from within Windows 8. I have no idea if Mac would function with such a dated Photoshop - they aren't blessed with a great rep. for backwards compatibility, I believe.
Really, as both of the suggested models in my OP are far more powerful than I already have, I'm sure either would do; the big question for me is the actual brands of stuff used to make the computer package: I don't know if they are reputable brands or just junk used to keep prices under control and designed for non-photographic needs... I really don't want something that'll break in a year's time.
Ciao -
Rob C
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the big question for me is the actual brands of stuff used to make the computer package:
I've not heard of that particular PSU, but all the rest are reputable parts. The graphics card looks a little over specified for the sort of tasks you're likely to use it for though.
The system with 8gb is probably a better bet, but it's difficult to work out value for money as pricing in Mallorca is likely to be rather different to the UK component prices I'm used to.
I'd avoid Windows 8 myself and buy Windows 7 (you'll find it an easier transition).
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I've not heard of that particular PSU, but all the rest are reputable parts. The graphics card looks a little over specified for the sort of tasks you're likely to use it for though.
The system with 8gb is probably a better bet, but it's difficult to work out value for money as pricing in Mallorca is likely to be rather different to the UK component prices I'm used to.
I'd avoid Windows 8 myself and buy Windows 7 (you'll find it an easier transition).
Thanks for your advice - strange thing: there is an option available, in both cases, using Windows 7, and it's more expensive than the Windows 8 offerings. I had been led to believe that 7 was a bit of a dog, and obsolete, but that 8 was better... This moribund machine of mine uses XP.
Any idea why 8 is less expensive than an older model 7 still, apparently, available today?
Ciao -
Rob C
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I had been led to believe that 7 was a bit of a dog,
Absolutely not. It's an great, robust, reliable and easy to use OS with excellent legacy compatibility.
Any idea why 8 is less expensive than an older model 7 still, apparently, available today?
No, I'd thought that buying W8 allowed you to change(upgrade ?) to W7 for no cost, but that may vary with which exact licence version you buy into and what territory you're in. It might also be worth checking any difference in cost is 'like for like' and not because they can only supply a higher spec W7 licence compared to a base version of W8.
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We repair computers, sell new ones, etc. From our experience, Western Digital Blue's are the worst drives out there - we've seen more of them fail than any other drive. I would recommend a Western Digital 1TB Black - WD1002FAEX (more expensive but with a 5 year warranty) or a Toshiba 1TB - DT01ACA100 (about the same price). I would stay away from basic Seagate drives like a Barracuda ST1000DM003, but their "value" enterprise drives like a ST1000NC001 would probably be OK, although we haven't tried them (a little more expensive, but with a 3 year warranty). I would guess that they could substitute one of these options for a few € more.
Tony
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Rob,
I have used many Asus boards for over a decade without issue. I have mostly seen disk or memory issues over the years. Just like your web hosting company had a good backup to reload from, make sure you have the same.
The cheaper system uses a motherboard that is about 3 years into the product cycle, but it is stll getting minor bios updates. Asus seems to reduce support at about 4-5 years from my experience. All that should mean is that if the builder cannot get a warranty replacement, they may have to replace with a different motherboard that supports the same cpu and memory.
The more expensive system uses a 2 month old motherboard that is getting bios stability fixes which is normal for this point in the product cycle.
Either system should be fine. What warranty does the builder offer ?
Usually i stress test a new system by running memtest and other testing programs for a day or two just to catch any early failures. Does the builder do the same ?
Every hd maker has had issues over the years. Your best protection is a good warranty and more importantly good routine backups. I avoided hds from Thailand for about a year after the factories were flooded while WD and others were getting going again there. Probably didn't make a real difference as the other factories were having to meet the extra demand anyway.
Frank
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No, I'd thought that buying W8 allowed you to change(upgrade ?) to W7 for no cost, but that may vary with which exact licence version you buy into and what territory you're in.
There are *no* downgrade rights with any oem version of win8. Only enterprise and volume licenses with software assurance get downgrade rights.... The sole option is spending $80 w/microsoft to get win7 license keys. Win7 *is* still available, although i've been running the RC of 8.1 for some now, it includes the option of booting to the desktop.
The progression of Vista (NT 6.0) -> Win7 (NT6.1) -> Win8 (NT6.2) -> Win8.1 (NT6.3) has seen noticeable increases in performance and security; I'm well impressed with 8.1 RC1..
Treat yourself to a 1TB WD VelociRaptor (10k rpm) - it costs over twice as much as a blue but well worth it. You might also look at WD Reds, i've had great results with these.
My home machines (Older Mac Pro/Dual Xeon 52355 8 cores, Intel DX79/3930 6 cores) use SSD's for system and WD-VR's for work and WD Reds for storage....
Be careful on Video - let your application(s) dictate that choice. You may even want to defer, as Intel's 4000 and 4500 graphics are pretty impressive.
Finally, I have to +1 on the mini...
One of my clients has a mixed mac/windows environment, using Mac Open Directory and running a Mac based LOB application for orthodontics (Tops). We setup a couple of Nikon cameras sending images via wireless to an FTP share point. Lightroom picks these up, and via a custom Picture Package and Automator, we push these into Tops We recently upgraded both his servers from Mac Pro's (same vintage as mine, with dual core CPU's) to Mac Mini servers, performance difference in this application was frankly impressive (not to mention the reduction of his power bill).
Again, let your choice of applications dictate your choice.....
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Thanks, guys, I've taken notes and will have a further chat with the dealer about options.
There's another outlet here that may be able to offer different combinations; hopefully, including some of the suggestions you've given me.
Thank you all very much again.
Ciao-
Rob C
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... Mac, on this island of Mallorca, is an almost unknown quantity. The only firm (a photographic dealership based in Barcelona) that I know handled the brand has since closed its local wholesale outlet and I can't go there anymore...
Ahmmm...
Sep. 3, 2010 - Apple store in Mallorca
The Apple giant is opening its first store in Mallorca, Spain The store will be located in calle syndicato nr 12 in the center of palma de mallorca.
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Rob, if Windows 8 is your only option, my advice is to go to stardock.com, invest $5 and get a copy of Start8. I must admit I'm not a fan of the Windows 8 'metro' desktop and Start8 basically turns your Windows 8 computer into a Windows 7 interface again. Once it's set up it's transparent and a quick press on the Windows key will bring you to the Metro screen if you really want it. Skype for example won't run under the desktop but only from Metro.
Mike.
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Rob, are you running LR?
Anyone care to comment on running LR5 on a Core i5 with 4GB of memory? Sounds way under-spec'd to me.
FWIW, my W7 LR/PS machine is rock solid. I don't see any problems running Windows 7 at all.
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Agreed! 8GB would be a minimum, I'd recommend 16GB (2 8GB sticks) to start
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Rob,
I looked up the case and power supply being proposed. 30 euros retail. They are economizing on the power supply. For what you need it is likely ok.
One thing to consider is if the motherboard provides USB3 ports for the front case panel, it is more convenient if the case has USB3 ports on the front as well. Otherwise you can add a panel with the connectors to the front in one of the 5.25 inch bays (like where the dvd drive would go) if you want the convenience. If the case is setting where it is easy to access the back, then it really doesn't matter. You can also get a USB3 extension cable and use that to make it convenient to access from the front.
The case they proposed has only USB2 ports on the front.
But it depends on how you use the USB ports. If you are plugging in an external hard disk drive, you can run the cable from one of the USB3 ports in the back since there are only USB2 ports on the front. A USB3 external drive will be faster, but that may not matter to you. For USB memory sicks and camera memory card readers, USB2 would be fine.
Hope my ramble makes sense.
I do agree with the comment about the WD blue drive though.
8GB in a pair of memory sticks would be my minimum. This is the one thing other than a ssd to replace the hard drive that will help the system feel fast. Pairs are slightly faster than a single stick. If there were 4 memory stick slots, you could add another pair later if you needed to. The P8 h61-mx micro ATX motherboard only has room for two. The B85M-G has 4 slots. either way, you could still just get a single 8GB stick for now and add the other later. Kingston is a solid brand.
On the ssd vs hd decision - if you go with the p8h61 based system, stay with a hd as the motherboard does not have the faster sata controller needed for the benefit. The motherboard needs to have sata 6GB/s support.
If a builder says they are sure that the software you want to run will work under Windows 8, have them put it in writing along with what they will do if it doesn't.
Frank
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Peter:
No, I'm only using Photoshop 6, which gives me all I have found that I need out of manipulation. I've sometimes wished I had the prespective control available in later PS models, but that's so seldom, and I'd be as well buying a PC lens for that... Anyway, with only a pension coming in now, higher spending doesn't make a lot of sense anymore. ;-(
Mike:
Windows 8 and Windows 7 are on offer for the same two computer packages I was proffered, with 8 being the cheaper! My concern is the ability to use the old PS6, which can be done (the dealer tells me) by putting in another prgramme that opens within both PS7 and PS8. I can't remember the name of the programme, but I would have them install it before I paid!
Slobodan:
Man, Palma is a 60 clicks drive away! You can't find anywhere to park unles you go underground somewhere; a gypsy will attempt to sell you flowers whilst her buddy picks your pocket; your watch is best left at home and the car, should you be unfortunate enough to find street parking close to your destination, will lose its virginity and forever wear the collective mark of careless doors and bull bars. Do you know that two insurance companies I tried will not insure jewellery worn outside the house? And that in the house, only if locked in a safe? Cameras? Forget it: only in the safe - should you have one. They thnik cameras are jewellery - the shadow of Leica? (Down, lads, a weak joke.)
But no, I had no idea Apple was in Mallorca.
Frank:
Thanks for your thoughts; I hadn't thought much about guarantees until now; the many variables in the equipment inside a unit make me think I now have to, very seriously! Buying computers makes buying cameras seem like child's play! I remember writing at least twice that were I starting in photography today, in the totally diigital world, I probably wouldn't have gone ahead. It seems so complex and out of the human element - not a lot of instinct left on which to ride ahead... Not to mention cost: I began with my amateur equipment - a used Rollei T and a new Exakta and a very basic Gnome enlarger. I don't think they would have taken me very far today. They didn't take me very far then, either, but at least far enough to earn enough to go for the real deal.
Ciao -
Rob C
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Rob, all the Macs I ever bought I did it online, delivered by mail, although I live only a few miles from an Apple store, my downtown is extremely safe and there is plenty of free garage parking.
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Hi Rob,
You can get Photoshop CS2 as a free download from Adobe. All you need to do is sign up for an Adobe account (which you may already have). Even though CS2 is more than 7 years old, it's still better than PS6. And then get a copy of Lightroom.
The computers you're looking at will run D700 files no problem. I would get at least 8gb of ram though.
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You can get Photoshop CS2 as a free download from Adobe.
No you can't. The download is for people holding existing licences for CS2. Using that download without a licence is simply piracy, something I'm sure Rob won't countenance given his hard core attitudes to copyright theft.
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Ooops. Sorry, I was under the impression that Adobe had made the CS2 version available to all as they were no longer supporting it. I don't want to condone piracy but it does seem that the situation is somewhat confusing:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/01/adobe-almost-does-something-amazing-by-accident/
I use a paid up version of CS6 but just tried the CS2 download. Seems weird to me that adobe would make the download and the license key freely available to anyone. Why not just kill the version?
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My experience and my advisors tell me that nothing kills a hard drive faster than a cheap power supply.
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Why not just kill the version?
Because lots of people had bought the licence and still want to use it. You might be surprised by how many people are still using older versions, as Roy does.
Releasing the authentication free serial number for users means they can switch off the authentication servers and no longer have to support authentication issues and the hardware needed to run the service.
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My experience and my advisors tell me that nothing kills a hard drive faster than a cheap power supply.
Which aspect - undervoltage or switching transients ?
Frank
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Because lots of people had bought the licence and still want to use it. You might be surprised by how many people are still using older versions, as Roy does.
Releasing the authentication free serial number for users means they can switch off the authentication servers and no longer have to support authentication issues and the hardware needed to run the service.
Makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.
Back to Rob's post: I still think that any system upgrade you make should include an upgrade in processing software as well. Ill bet you could do almost everything you need with Lightroom. Definitely worth a look.
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Which aspect - undervoltage or switching transients ?
Frank
Question is above my pay grade, but I suspect undervoltage. My failures appeared after adding more drives.
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I'd avoid Windows 8 myself and buy Windows 7 (you'll find it an easier transition).
+1
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Thanks for your advice - strange thing: there is an option available, in both cases, using Windows 7, and it's more expensive than the Windows 8 offerings. I had been led to believe that 7 was a bit of a dog, and obsolete, but that 8 was better... This moribund machine of mine uses XP.
Any idea why 8 is less expensive than an older model 7 still, apparently, available today?
Ciao -
Rob C
1. I've never heard this. It's almost like you have the two versions mixed up.
2. Windows 8 has mostly been a failure and has been blamed for drastically reduced PC sales as a type of backlash against it. Windows 8 is more appropriate for tablets and any small touch screen device.. where Windows 7 is finally the OS we've been waiting for all these years. Win 8 has been unfavourably compared to Win Me. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Microsoft using price to promote a failing product.
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:D It is the normal product cycle for MS - every other version is decent. Fortunately, it seems that the only thing they made a major mistake on is the user interface.
Frank
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Be careful on Video - let your application(s) dictate that choice. You may even want to defer, as Intel's 4000 and 4500 graphics are pretty impressive.
Finally, I have to +1 on the mini...
+1 4000/4500 graphics are very capable, simple, can easily run dual monitors, unless you need the core power for rendering video or very large files 4000/4500 should work fine.
+1 My personal workstation is a 3 year old 950/Bloomfield that still meets my needs and with 2 SSD's, a fast graphics card and fast WD blacks for storage isn't a slouch speed wise. For fun I recently picked up a quad core mini refurbished for under $600, added 16gb of Crucial lifetime RAM (mini's do not accept RAM with extended/raised heatsinks) for $121 and a 256gb Samsung 840 Pro SSD for $279 (now $229).. and am very impressed with it's performance. I has both the 1tb drive it came with and the new SSD installed. It's faster than my workstation for everything but video rendering. (4) USB3.0 ports, HDMI,DP, gigalan, built in fast wifi and TB are all included. For under $1000 I have a small sleek modern computer that is exceptionally quiet, throws off no heat to speak of.
If I still wanted to run Win and the mini appealed to me you could run Bootcamp and boot directly into any version of Windows desired.
And because I have a fast NAS (Synology 1813+) it doesn't bother me that the mini only supports two drives. I can get very close to fast hard disk speed and all the storage I want over my LAN. Considering that I might replace the 1tb HDD with a fast 512gb SSD as an internal work drive.
Good luck.
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On the ssd vs hd decision - if you go with the p8h61 based system, stay with a hd as the motherboard does not have the faster sata controller needed for the benefit. The motherboard needs to have sata 6GB/s support.
No, it does not. It needs 6gb/s to get the maximum speed the drive can perform at, but you'll still recognize huge gains in performance by putting the same drive in a 3gb/s system. In fact, the vast majority of people who upgraded their laptops in the last few years did just that. 6gb/s controllers in laptops is fairly recent.
I agree about the PS though.. if you want a system that lasts and doesn't develop "glitches then invest in a top quality power supply and plug it into a good UPS.
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Steve,
Yes i agree for maximum potential bandwidth.
I did just that on my 3yr old lenovo laptops with samsung 830 and 840 pro. Small difference in intial load time, but once loaded, not much difference compared to the hard drive. Probably down to the caching of the drive as much as anything else, Yes, i did the ssd optimizations. When i did the same for my recent w530 laptop with the faster sata iii interface, the difference was measureable.
Could have been something else, but we never did find it.
Frank
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Steve,
Yes i agree for maximum potential bandwidth.
I did just that on my 3yr old lenovo laptops with samsung 830 and 840 pro. Small difference in intial load time, but once loaded, not much difference compared to the hard drive. Probably down to the caching of the drive as much as anything else, Yes, i did the ssd optimizations. When i did the same for my recent w530 laptop with the faster sata iii interface, the difference was measureable.
Could have been something else, but we never did find it.
Frank
"Seat of the pants" testing can be deceiving, especially if you aren't stopping to think about how much disk access is required for a given task. For instance, loading a small program would be a small difference because you're moving small amounts of data. But a large program and loading large files you're sure to see a bigger gain. If you want to see the difference in speed run a benchmark.
The best laptop drives move 60-70mbps.. not slow, but still about 30-50mpbs slower than the fastest desktop hard drives. Even the slowest SSD's move data at over 200mbps.. and up to 240-250 or so with a 3gb/s interface. So just in sequential times the difference is 3-4x faster. But the real gains come in your 4k times (small blocks of data) to the tune of 500%+.
Try this. Run the free benchmark AS SSD. Don't pay attention to the scores.. just time how long it takes to complete the benchmark using a SSD and then your laptop hard drive. Given that the program moves the same amount of data per test.. I predict your SSD will complete it's test HOURS before the hard drive.