Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Doug Peterson on June 10, 2013, 03:26:20 pm

Title: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Doug Peterson on June 10, 2013, 03:26:20 pm
We've published a short technical note in response to the new Mac Pro announcement:
New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/the-new-mac-pro-phase-one-and-leaf)

Also notably Capture One strongly leverages the video card for Open CL for both on screen adjustment ("responsiveness") and processing to JPG/TIFF. I fully expect the new dual video card option to provide a great Capture One experience.

As always, I'd recommend waiting for us to test rather than assume. We'll have one the moment their available.

This new Mac Pro sure looks like a big winner to me. Though the lack of internal upgradability is a bit disconcerting.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: design_freak on June 10, 2013, 03:32:26 pm
http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: design_freak on June 10, 2013, 03:36:00 pm
This may mean that some companies missed a thing  ;D
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Wayne Fox on June 10, 2013, 05:02:46 pm
Though the lack of internal upgradability is a bit disconcerting.
An interesting and pretty cool look. Reviewing the specs, and considering the speed of TB 2 so things like raids etc can be external, I'm not seeing a real need to do internal upgrading. 

Can't wait to get my hands on one.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: MrSmith on June 10, 2013, 05:09:17 pm
Does it have FW800?
Wonder how it will tether?
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Doug Peterson on June 10, 2013, 05:14:14 pm
An interesting and pretty cool look. Reviewing the specs, and considering the speed of TB 2 so things like raids etc can be external, I'm not seeing a real need to do internal upgrading. Can't wait to get my hands on one.

Agreed. Before Thunderbolt the lack of internal upgradability would have been a non-starter.

Now it's just a bit uncomfortable. More than anything else I think it's a matter of getting used to the new paradigm that external storage need not be necessarily slower.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Doug Peterson on June 10, 2013, 05:16:32 pm
Does it have FW800? Wonder how it will tether?

Did you read the link? That was the entire point of the post. It does not have FireWire at all.
New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/the-new-mac-pro-phase-one-and-leaf)

The article spells out that users of modern Phase/Leaf backs need not worry as the Thunderbolt adapter works great. Also the IQ1 and IQ2 and Credo backs have USB3, which after considerable delay on the IQ1, is now working great.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: MrSmith on June 10, 2013, 05:43:42 pm
No,my mistake I assumed the link was just to apple.  ;D
With that many thunderbolt ports and the ability to multiply no internal expansion is not too disappointing, would have been nice to see a couple of ssd sized slots but if external devices come down in price it shouldnt prohibit easy expansion.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 10, 2013, 07:31:27 pm
Well.. from a PC users point of view..

1.  R2D2 got a new paint job.   Or did the Hoover?  With that fan in the middle probably Hoover.  You really could drill and put a air intake and vacuum port on that thing and use it to clean the carpet.. ;o)

2.  I've got a new Synology 1813+ on pre-order, but I still don't want to give up internal storage drives.  Then I'd need two 1813's, one with TB.. And some sort of LAN to TB adapter because I certainly don't want either sitting on my workspace.  Or under it.  And while it appears the PCIe SSD cards will be fast, I have to wonder if they'll be as fast and refined as the Revo's and in the same price realm?  And will they be upgradable?  SSD tech is moving fast.

3.  I read nothing about choices of video cards.  So will I have to buy the fastest ones, the slowest ones, or something in the middle determined by who?  And will they be upgradable?  Video card tech moves fast as well.

4.  I really like the "one box, all my computer crap in the box" model.  I don't want 2-3-4 components sitting on my desk even if they're connected by a nice (and expensive) TB cable.

5.  What about the vast majority of people who would be well served by a single CPU and video card?  Will there by options?  I'm sure you can just populate one CPU socket but.. 

It's cool looking and if it fits your needs 'exactly' I'm sure it won't be that much more expensive (than a PC).. Or maybe it will be a lot more customizable than it looks.  Sure hope so.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Mr. Rib on June 10, 2013, 07:51:04 pm
I don't like it. I would like to have a single chassis in which you can stuff everything you need, fully customizable, with easy access to all peripherals and a huge margin for further expansion. The most important aspect of a "Pro" branch is that the spectrum of the needs is very, very wide. I just don't see that thing satisfying the needs of all these different "pro's" and the particular applications they're after.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: TMARK on June 10, 2013, 08:36:03 pm
Perfect for broadcast, TV studio, film production.

The last MacPro I bought for my old production company cost $11,000, all in.  It was sweet in 2008.

Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: design_freak on June 10, 2013, 08:44:36 pm
Some are still alive in the previous era ... That is what is there TB2. If you want a new specialized card, just connect it, not caring anymore if you have an empty slot, or you have the appropriate slot. In this way, you can create much more sophisticated equipment, which was not possible until now. (In the era of box pc) I mean, expandable with cards.Now It will be a very advanced units like more separate computers.
Start to think differently 8)
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: TMARK on June 10, 2013, 08:47:52 pm
Some are still alive in the previous era ... That is what is there TB2. If you want a new specialized card, just connect it, not caring anymore if you have an empty slot, or you have the appropriate slot. In this way, you can create much more sophisticated equipment, which was not possible until now. (In the era of box pc) I mean, expandable with cards.Now It will be a very advanced units like more separate computers.
Start to think differently 8)

YES indeed.

When Apple comes out with a new machine everyone shits on it until they have it.  The hysteria dies down, and people get to work. 
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: design_freak on June 10, 2013, 08:55:58 pm
LOL
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: kers on June 10, 2013, 09:27:32 pm
Some how the design reminds me of 'the lamp'
making a round enclosure around only square parts...
OK... the fan is the key- but is that part so important..? I agree heat goes up so in that sense the design is logical...
Still i rather would have like a little square that i can put my 'old' stuff in...
- 'the lamp' had a very short life and was quickly replaced by the first screen iMac




Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Wayne Fox on June 10, 2013, 09:52:20 pm
Does it have FW800?
Wonder how it will tether?
if you have Thunderbolt, you have FW800 - just takes a $30 part. According to tech crunch it has 6 Thunderbolt 2 ports and 2 firewire 800 ports.  I can't see those in the images in the keynote, and I'm not sure why they would bother since adding FW takes a $30 dongle so I think they're wrong..  IN fact in the keynote schiller says  "6 Firewire 2 ports" referring to the Thunderbolt 2 ports ... whoops.

I don't like it. I would like to have a single chassis in which you can stuff everything you need, fully customizable, with easy access to all peripherals and a huge margin for further expansion. The most important aspect of a "Pro" branch is that the spectrum of the needs is very, very wide. I just don't see that thing satisfying the needs of all these different "pro's" and the particular applications they're after.

I guess we agree to disagree, I prefer the small form factor.  At this point you can't get enough into the current macpro chassis so most everyone has some raids hanging off it (I have two eSata external raids on mine) So why make it bigger since external expansion doesn't take a performance hit and is so easy to do, instead just make sure you have the required stuff in the box, including super fast SSD for OS/Applications.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Schewe on June 10, 2013, 10:07:34 pm
Though the lack of internal upgradability is a bit disconcerting.

Hum, I guess you aren't used to dealing with 10-12 TB of data huh? With the current MacPro limit if 4 internal (unless you put a drive in the 2nd DVD slot) most people dealing with tons of storage have already found good external fast storage. I run a pair of 6x2 TB stripped arrays via a 6 drive eSTATA enclosure from Burly Storage (http://www.burlystorage.com/). The only drives I have internal are 4 15K SAS drives connected via MacRaid which with the new internal SSD connection will be faster.

Once you get past the limits of "internal" storage vs really fast external storage, you'll see that you really don't want a lot of internal storage because of the limits of power supply and heat reduction. With the massive external fast storage, you don't need to burden the internals of the workstation–which is a good thing!
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 10, 2013, 10:21:03 pm
Speaking of the power supply, anyone know if is internal or external?

External would really, really suck.

I'm on the fence myself.  Was considering a new MP to replace my Hack.  Not sure this one works for me just yet.  Have 6 internal drives, external does not sound attractive nor cheap.

Not seeing a lot of love for this yet around the net, but that too might change in time.

iCan?
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: TMARK on June 10, 2013, 11:25:05 pm
This machine's data throughput combined with TB2 external storage will be awesome for motion. I like external storage. The 6 drives in my MacPro (2 SSD in the DVD 2 slot) just isn't enough nor is it really fast enough. I've used external storage for a while, including a LaCie TB SSD drive with my laptop and iMac. I see no limitations or downside here.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 11, 2013, 12:10:10 am
drives I have internal are 4 15K SAS drives connected via MacRaid which with the new internal SSD connection will be faster.

Once you get past the limits of "internal" storage vs really fast external storage, you'll see that you really don't want a lot of internal storage because of the limits of power supply and heat reduction. With the massive external fast storage, you don't need to burden the internals of the workstation–which is a good thing!

I suppose this is a limitation of a MacPro.  With PC's it's really not a problem to properly power and control 8 drives (32tb) in a well designed and cooled mid-size case, or up to 16-20 (64-80tb) in a full size case.   I'm of the opinion that I'd much rather choose my own power supply (clean quality power) to supply my storage drives than let the OEM of a RAID/NAS chassis choose one for me.  They tend to go as cheap as possible, where I tend to buy extra quality/power as a safety margin.  By the same token I've seen precious few RAID/NAS cases that keep the drives as cool as a well designed case can.  And then there's noise.

I have several NAS enclosures personally and I've built/supplied a grunch of then, and very few have equaled even an average PC case in power, cooling and noise.  I have a new Synology 1813+ on pre-order I'm hoping breaks that mold.  And I'm hoping that it's internal CPU/processing will relieve the main CPU of a bit.

With the more recent advent of RAID/NAS boxes for home and small business users we are tending to gravitate towards their use.  With the traditional drives in a PC case most are used to we basically pay for drives, a bigger power supply, and a bigger case.. the last two if we don't already have them.  With external RAID/NAS boxes there's more expense, and up until TB or a quality home hard wired network you're still hobbled by cheap power supplies, inferior cooling, more noise, and inferior transfer speeds.  You can work past these things, but the costs add up rapidly.

Considering all that, there is no greater bargain or performance choice than an "in case" storage solution.  More convenient in most cases too.   Yet, NAS's and better home networks are giving us more choices. 
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: yaya on June 11, 2013, 01:10:09 am
Speaking of the power supply, anyone know if is internal or external?

External would really, really suck.
the large 3-pin female socket on the back suggest that it's internal
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: MarkoRepse on June 11, 2013, 02:37:34 am
Interesting concept so much more mac mini. And what if you want only one video card?
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: hjulenissen on June 11, 2013, 03:10:35 am
Some are still alive in the previous era ...
Or they choose substance over style...
Quote
That is what is there TB2. If you want a new specialized card, just connect it, not caring anymore if you have an empty slot, or you have the appropriate slot. In this way, you can create much more sophisticated equipment, which was not possible until now. (In the era of box pc) I mean, expandable with cards.Now It will be a very advanced units like more separate computers.
Start to think differently 8)
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7049/intel-thunderbolt-2-everything-you-need-to-know
"Thunderbolt 2/Falcon Ridge still feed off of the same x4 PCIe 2.0 interface as the previous generation designs. "

According to my understanding, high-end GPUs tends to appreciate more bandwidth than that offered by TB2.

From a purely ergonomy perspective, I hate having umpteen boxes/cables cluttering my desktop or floor, I would much appreciate to be able to insert the thing into some slot and forget about it. That could be a 19" rack, a tower PC cabinet or whatever.

-h
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 11, 2013, 03:48:47 am
5.  What about the vast majority of people who would be well served by a single CPU and video card? 

iMac?

Jeremy
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 11, 2013, 06:35:47 am
iMac?

Jeremy

No thank you.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: design_freak on June 11, 2013, 06:52:58 am
Lenovo also has to have customers  ::)
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: TMARK on June 11, 2013, 07:25:47 am
iMac?

Jeremy

I know many people who use iMacs for tethering and MacPros for production.  They work great.
Title: New Mac Pro: extrnalizong expansion with USB3 and Thunderbolt2
Post by: BJL on June 11, 2013, 10:37:09 am
I am guessing that, as so often with Apple, there will be a small proportion of potential customers who are genuinely disadvantaged, because for example they need to add fast expansion cardds like graphics cards beyond the twin high end graphics cards already provided ...

... and the great majority of us will greatly enjoy the vast reduction in bulk and weight, because we no longer need or want internal expansion now that we have more modular extrnal options from USB3, Thunderbolt 2, and NAS via dual GB ethernet ports.

I expect that the internal power supply can also be reduced in weight and bulk, since it no longer needs to have surplus capacity for multiple added drives and cards that in most cases are not present. Instead, extra power is provided on an "as needed" basis, bundled with the USB3 or Thunderbolt2 drives and such that need it.

And about USB3: some comments seem to ignore its presence, and talk as if only the currently limited and pricey Thunderbolt peripherals are the only options, but isn't USB3 fast enough for a lot of disk storage needs?
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 11, 2013, 10:48:11 am
iMac?

Jeremy

Last time I checked the Imac is using a mobile processor, doesn't allow changing video cards, and the monitor is less than ideal.  In short it's another packaged solution with the performance and most limitations without any of the advantages of a MBP..

Intel desktop processors are very popular in the PC world because they perform very well for their cost, there are many pre-configured choices, you can configure your own from a host of quality components, all while keeping the costs down.  In contrasts the Imac costs more than most PC desktop builds and the Macpro while great if you need it.. furthers the gap.  Of course they know if they offered the desktop processors the pricing on their other systems would appear very skewed.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: TMARK on June 11, 2013, 11:13:59 am
Last time I checked the Imac is using a mobile processor, doesn't allow changing video cards, and the monitor is less than ideal.  In short it's another packaged solution with the performance and most limitations without any of the advantages of a MBP..

Intel desktop processors are very popular in the PC world because they perform very well for their cost, there are many pre-configured choices, you can configure your own from a host of quality components, all while keeping the costs down.  In contrasts the Imac costs more than most PC desktop builds and the Macpro while great if you need it.. furthers the gap.  Of course they know if they offered the desktop processors the pricing on their other systems would appear very skewed.

Steve, the iMac with i7 processors work fine for stills.  Performance is rather like a MBP, and like the MPB you just run a second calibrated monitor and external storage.

I don't really care what platform PS/C1/LR runs on, and for motion many custom PC builds are really stellar for editing, compositing and color grading.  From my perspective as a (former) business owner producing motion and stills, I'd rather go with Macs.  My experience is that paying a 25% premium for Apple hardware that simply works (and it does, for the most part) is a bargain.  My time is worth more than that 25% Apple markup, as well as the frustration and cost of hiring someone to implement a custom PC system, and constant support issues.  I know there are people such as yourself that have the skills and time to make and maintain a killer system (which is awesome, by the way!) but I'm not that guy. Wish I were.  So for me, Apple products were (and are) my go-to move.

I would also say that for 85% of photographers (yes I pulled that number out of my hat) an iMac is more than enough.  I guess if you do lots of stitching or heavy PS work on large 8x10 scans, you may need more capacity.  But for, say, a wedding shooter doing a little video?  An iMac would do it.

Disclosure:  I don't have an iMac.  We had two we used as location work stations for client viewing and tethering.  This is for stills, mind you.  We had a DIT station for motion, for logging clips etc.  This was a MacPro.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: fredjeang2 on June 11, 2013, 12:09:33 pm
The only reason that could maintain today somebody
To mac in motion pp pipeline is prores and fcpx.
Fcpx is not for everyone but prores is good.

Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Wayne Fox on June 11, 2013, 05:49:53 pm
Speaking of the power supply, anyone know if is internal or external?

External would really, really suck.


I love the idea of external.  Shove it out of the way somewhere, no heat from the power supply in the actual CPU tower.  I'm gonna want this thing sitting on my desk :)
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: KevinA on June 11, 2013, 06:33:29 pm
I like external too. It's all I bother to use. Just pick up your drive and plug it in to another computer. Use it with the laptop then use it on your desk top. No problem with external, Thunderbolt is very good.
Title: New Mac Pro: the power supply is internal (almost everything else external!)
Post by: BJL on June 11, 2013, 07:02:42 pm
The three-pin female 110V socket shows that the power supply is internal, so truly "one fan to cool them all". The best picture I have found is this one from the good summary at http://www.slashgear.com/slashgear-101-mac-pro-2013-11285989/ (http://www.slashgear.com/slashgear-101-mac-pro-2013-11285989/):

(http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/mac_pro_2013_ports-580x424.jpg)

By the way: clearly 6 Thunderbolt ports, not two as some source had it. Which with daisy chaining of six devices per port for a total of 36 means that you could attach one of every Thunderbolt peripheral currently available!
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 11, 2013, 07:55:02 pm
I love the idea of external.  Shove it out of the way somewhere, no heat from the power supply in the actual CPU tower.  I'm gonna want this thing sitting on my desk :)

Ive got enough on my desk.  I don't need to look at my computer.

Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 11, 2013, 09:14:45 pm
Steve, the iMac with i7 processors work fine for stills.  Performance is rather like a MBP, and like the MPB you just run a second calibrated monitor and external storage.

I don't really care what platform PS/C1/LR runs on, and for motion many custom PC builds are really stellar for editing, compositing and color grading.  From my perspective as a (former) business owner producing motion and stills, I'd rather go with Macs.  My experience is that paying a 25% premium for Apple hardware that simply works (and it does, for the most part) is a bargain.  My time is worth more than that 25% Apple markup, as well as the frustration and cost of hiring someone to implement a custom PC system, and constant support issues.  I know there are people such as yourself that have the skills and time to make and maintain a killer system (which is awesome, by the way!) but I'm not that guy. Wish I were.  So for me, Apple products were (and are) my go-to move.

I would also say that for 85% of photographers (yes I pulled that number out of my hat) an iMac is more than enough. 
I guess if you do lots of stitching or heavy PS work on large 8x10 scans, you may need more capacity.  But for, say, a wedding shooter doing a little video?  An iMac would do it.

Disclosure:  I don't have an iMac.  We had two we used as location work stations for client viewing and tethering.  This is for stills, mind you.  We had a DIT station for motion, for logging clips etc.  This was a MacPro.

1.  Sure, but the MBP has the advantage of being truly portable so adding the cost of an external monitor to the equation provides that compensation.  With the Imac you're just replacing one screen with another and absorbing the cost of the replaced monitor.   There are no advantages to compensate.

2.  This is a myth.  First, Mac hardware uses the very same CPU, chipsets, memory, etc, etc as a PC.  They both 'just work' equally.   What gives the Mac an advantage towards having less issues is Mac's are built from a very limited number of components compared to a PC and require less drivers, supposedly allowing more time and validation going to each.;  Drivers are built into the Mac OS, but can come from MS or the OEM (or both) with PC's.  With PC's you have the choice of thousands of pieces more of hardware.   It's wishful thinking to believe they'd be as well validated, in some cases they are but in most not.    Personally I think the OEM's put the most resources/effort into drivers for their 'workstation)premium)' lines than for their cut rate bargain lines.  As they should.     So, what's an advantage to one could be a disadvantage to the other.  Either way it's easily something you can choose through a bit of education or even paying attention.

Let's take this a bit further.  You say Mac's have a 25% premium.  As accurate a number as I could come up with.     But it's more about the buyer.  What is their motivation?  Price, or less problems?    I'd say that when given a choice, consumers tend to shop price first.  Apple simply doesn't allow this.  They tell you what to buy and how much you're going to pay for it.  In return they provide you a solid well validated product.  But this doesn't mean you couldn't do better with a PC.  You can.  But to do so requires a bit of knowledge and more.. keeping up with the industry.  I can easily build PC's with a higher grade of hardware than Mac's come with.  Many of my customers are cost no object buyers, they simply want the best PC money can buy for their needs.  Not for someone else's needs.  If a certain video card would benefit them more, then they'll buy that video card.  If it won't, either because it's not as powerful as another video card, or because their work flow can't make use of the advantages.. then it is not the best buy.  For them.

3.  Enough for what?  I'm not being flippant.  I just think there are better ways to match a computer to a user.   Most computers sold today will allow the running of CS6 and LR.  For some this will be enough.  Others will want more storage, or more connectivity, or a better screen, or cooling for a demanding environment, or with a certain look that matches a new desk.  PC's allow that customization.  Mac's allow 'some' customization, but at a much higher cost.  But what really makes a computer suitable for a professional user comes down to time economics.

A $500 machine from Tiger will eventually arrive in one piece.  It will run CS6 and LR.  Perhaps not very fast, and perhaps it won't store as many images or video footage as they desire.. but it will work.  But when you get into productivity time is money.  If, at the end of the day, I can finish my work an hour sooner.. if a machine will do that for me.. then it's worth the cost of upgrading.  To me.  For others 60 minutes extra per day is worth a lot less.  So sure, a Imac might process pictures for 85% of the users out there.  But does it maximize their own personal economy of time?  Probably in less than 10% of the cases.  In the rest I could show them how to have just as reliable a machine, or even more reliable.  Which fits their needs better, and will allow them to do X amount of work in Y minutes less per day.  I can do this because of the vast number of choices available when custom building a machine.  And almost always for less cost.  The more someone needs in the way of hardware. the more I can improve their economy of time.

To do this effectively I have to know both computers and photography at the customers level.  Or at least have resources at their level.  And frankly, photographers at this level make more with photography than building PC's.  I'm just in a unique place where I have the time.   Why some people think some kid making $8 an hour at Best Buy can effectively guide them to an effective purchase is beyond me.  But this is where Apple does well.  They strive to only sell quality well validated gear.. customers can count on this even if the level of gear is above or below their economy of time.  With PC's it's certainly possible to do as well or even better.  But it's more easy to do worse                                         
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: EricWHiss on June 12, 2013, 12:02:11 am
Am I the only one that thinks this looks like a garbage can or even one of those TV ashtrays that are supposed to suck in the fumes? I've been Mac for years but wonder about the design of this one.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 12, 2013, 05:25:34 am
One thing is sure, this is going to trigger tremendous innovation among peripherals vendors.

The question is how we can elegantly manage the things we would have done using internal bays within the Mac Pro.

The answer is going to be Thunderbolt 2 devices able to mix flexibly storage (2-4 eSATA bays), optical drives (1 bluray drive should be sufficient) and PCIe cards slots (typically 2 full length slots?) in a stylish and silent package that would match the design of the new Mac Pro.

I can picture easily a similar cylindrical design with one level able to host 4 eSata drives/optical drives and one level below able to host a few PCIe cards.

I believe all of us working with large amount of data have been using external arrays anyway so that box is a given (I currently use a 6bay/12 TB SCSI320 Raid 5 unit for live data and a 10 bay/40 TB NAS for back up).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: fredjeang2 on June 12, 2013, 05:26:48 am
1.  Sure, but the MBP has the advantage of being truly portable so adding the cost of an external monitor to the equation provides that compensation.  With the Imac you're just replacing one screen with another and absorbing the cost of the replaced monitor.   There are no advantages to compensate.

2.  This is a myth.  First, Mac hardware uses the very same CPU, chipsets, memory, etc, etc as a PC.  They both 'just work' equally.   What gives the Mac an advantage towards having less issues is Mac's are built from a very limited number of components compared to a PC and require less drivers, supposedly allowing more time and validation going to each.;  Drivers are built into the Mac OS, but can come from MS or the OEM (or both) with PC's.  With PC's you have the choice of thousands of pieces more of hardware.   It's wishful thinking to believe they'd be as well validated, in some cases they are but in most not.    Personally I think the OEM's put the most resources/effort into drivers for their 'workstation)premium)' lines than for their cut rate bargain lines.  As they should.     So, what's an advantage to one could be a disadvantage to the other.  Either way it's easily something you can choose through a bit of education or even paying attention.

Let's take this a bit further.  You say Mac's have a 25% premium.  As accurate a number as I could come up with.     But it's more about the buyer.  What is their motivation?  Price, or less problems?    I'd say that when given a choice, consumers tend to shop price first.  Apple simply doesn't allow this.  They tell you what to buy and how much you're going to pay for it.  In return they provide you a solid well validated product.  But this doesn't mean you couldn't do better with a PC.  You can.  But to do so requires a bit of knowledge and more.. keeping up with the industry.  I can easily build PC's with a higher grade of hardware than Mac's come with.  Many of my customers are cost no object buyers, they simply want the best PC money can buy for their needs.  Not for someone else's needs.  If a certain video card would benefit them more, then they'll buy that video card.  If it won't, either because it's not as powerful as another video card, or because their work flow can't make use of the advantages.. then it is not the best buy.  For them.

3.  Enough for what?  I'm not being flippant.  I just think there are better ways to match a computer to a user.   Most computers sold today will allow the running of CS6 and LR.  For some this will be enough.  Others will want more storage, or more connectivity, or a better screen, or cooling for a demanding environment, or with a certain look that matches a new desk.  PC's allow that customization.  Mac's allow 'some' customization, but at a much higher cost.  But what really makes a computer suitable for a professional user comes down to time economics.

A $500 machine from Tiger will eventually arrive in one piece.  It will run CS6 and LR.  Perhaps not very fast, and perhaps it won't store as many images or video footage as they desire.. but it will work.  But when you get into productivity time is money.  If, at the end of the day, I can finish my work an hour sooner.. if a machine will do that for me.. then it's worth the cost of upgrading.  To me.  For others 60 minutes extra per day is worth a lot less.  So sure, a Imac might process pictures for 85% of the users out there.  But does it maximize their own personal economy of time?  Probably in less than 10% of the cases.  In the rest I could show them how to have just as reliable a machine, or even more reliable.  Which fits their needs better, and will allow them to do X amount of work in Y minutes less per day.  I can do this because of the vast number of choices available when custom building a machine.  And almost always for less cost.  The more someone needs in the way of hardware. the more I can improve their economy of time.

To do this effectively I have to know both computers and photography at the customers level.  Or at least have resources at their level.  And frankly, photographers at this level make more with photography than building PC's.  I'm just in a unique place where I have the time.   Why some people think some kid making $8 an hour at Best Buy can effectively guide them to an effective purchase is beyond me.  But this is where Apple does well.  They strive to only sell quality well validated gear.. customers can count on this even if the level of gear is above or below their economy of time.  With PC's it's certainly possible to do as well or even better.  But it's more easy to do worse                                        

Steve, good and accurate explainations.

A few years ago, the choice would have been clear
In what image work is concerned: Mac.

During many years, Mac has been the no-brainer
Working machine, while peecees were for the
Secretaries and kids gamers. Unless you were runnin
An Autodesk soft under Linux.
But Pcs have changed, so has Mac.

Now the power balance is on the peecee side
And even usability since the windows op aren't
The garbage anymore they used to be.
I don't even run an anti-virus in my PCs anymore
And no prob in years of use.

There is simply too much power and customization
Available today and at lower cost to be ignored.
But as T and you pointed, a peecee needs to be well
Configured.

I beleive that Mac is going to target a mass market
Each time more while the big power for demanding
Tasks is going to be pcs. It's already happening.

In what motion imagery is concerned, Mac is more
A burden now than a racional choice, unless you
Are a fcp user and-ir wants to write prores.
But with DNxHD 444 that's not even as attractive
As it used to be.  fcpx aint for the pro crowd anymore
And more generaly, a proprietary system, non cross
Platform in 2013 Seems to me a complete paradox.
We don't need codecs that can be used in a system
Only. When RAWvideo will be the norm soon, the
Need for prores writting will be close to zero. Bye bye
Controvertial and problematic QT container too.
People will work on high-end peecees cheaper in RAW
Video real time, master in JPEG2000, fx in openEXR.

But the Mac design cool factor in an advertising agency
Will remains attractive enough.
 
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 12, 2013, 08:37:18 am
Fred,

I don't think the new Mac Pro is going to reverse the trend in video to go PC.  You got that correct.  Apple is making a big gamble on a new way of thinking and I don't think it wins short term.  Personally I love the design and quality of Apple products but in this case I think they put form over function. Apple has done this before and won, like the original iMac , and on the flip side they also lost, with products like the Cube.

In my opinion real strength in Apple is the ecosystem and OS's.  Single point tasks like video editing are pretty much OS blind.  You spend most of your time in the application.  But for the rest of life the OS plays a much bigger part.

I was a windows diehard for decades, an outcast to my creative clients who were all mac users.  They all
 just plugged in thier machines and worked.  I built boxes, struggled to keep the early digital capture devices working and watched windows make a mess of color management.

Windows got better and the hardware leveled off.  W7 is a very stable and mature OS.

Then I switched to Mac.  Leaving the hardware aside, I fell in love with the OS and ecosystem.  Ok, sure, you need to totally buy in to make it work but when you do its really seamless and I think an easier way of working , on the rest of life...outside of a point application like video edit or even Photoshop.

I now have a boatload of Mac stuff, but I'm still left with a self built box, hacked to OSX.  I really wanted to make that a Mac.  To say I'm disappointed with the new Pro is an understatement. And I agree with Steve, Apple is leaving a giant hole in its product lineup for people like me.  I don't need 12 cores, but I want it all in one box. An iMac, which is a dandy machine, does not work for me because I don't want the Apple monitor. A Mini, which I'm using right now, is a great everyday system, but its not a photography workstation.  A Macbook Pro into the NEC 271, been there, done that but still not as good or convenient as my ivy bridge hack with everything all in a single box.

And sure I have a big NAS box externally, but I'm really not interested in more boxes. 

Unfortunately Apple passed me over this time around.  That's not to say this new pro won't revolutionize the way the PC world looks at desktops.  And lets be really honest, desktops are dying in the mainstream. 
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 12, 2013, 08:45:05 am
The new mac pro is in fact already on sales at Amazon jp. Killer price!

http://www.amazon.co.jp/ideaco-New-TUBELOR-ゴミ箱-ブラック/dp/B0018NRM9U

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Stefan.Steib on June 12, 2013, 10:05:56 am
Hurray - and they also have a white one......... :D

http://www.amazon.co.jp/ideaco-TUBELOR-%E3%83%81%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%96%E3%83%A9%E3%83%BC-%E3%82%B4%E3%83%9F%E7%AE%B1-%E3%83%9B%E3%83%AF%E3%82%A4%E3%83%88/dp/B000IGJBV0/ref=pd_sim_k_3/377-8227016-3082663

Title: Re: New Mac Pro: what would external PCIe slots be needed for?
Post by: BJL on June 12, 2013, 11:40:16 am
There is talk of adding PCIe expansion cards, thus needing an external box, so I have a question:

what sort of things need PCIe slots these days, given the dual internal graphics cards and the TB2, USB3 and GB Ethenrnet ports?
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 12, 2013, 01:11:41 pm


But the Mac design cool factor in an advertising agency
Will remains attractive enough.
 


Fred -  This is an area Mac does very well in.  Design innovation like no other.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Steve Weldon on June 12, 2013, 01:33:40 pm

Unfortunately Apple passed me over this time around.  That's not to say this new pro won't revolutionize the way the PC world looks at desktops.  And lets be really honest, desktops are dying in the mainstream. 
Craig -  Agreed.

Everyone says the desktop world is dying, yet it is still robust enough to support the hundreds of cases currently on the market, series after series of motherboards, video cards, drives..  All of the best performing components.  Perhaps the 'larger' desktop market is dying.  But there is still a large enough market for enthusiasts and custom builders were I don't think we need worry.  At least any time soon.   In fact, I think the OEM's get a fair amount of R&D completed within this community.  So I think we're safe fro now. :)
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: aaron on June 12, 2013, 03:22:10 pm
Wow, The Future is one ugly duckling.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Stefan.Steib on June 12, 2013, 04:46:06 pm
http://news.cnet.com/2300-17938_105-10017159.html

 ;D
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Mr. Rib on June 13, 2013, 10:06:41 am
What would be really cool (and stop me from bitching) would be if you could connect this mac into a bigger chassis with all the other stuff inside and if they said everything inside the main unit is swappable  / cuztomizable. Sorry, I don't like the idea of having all the parts scattered around the desktop. I just don't want to be distracted with that sort of thing when I'm working. In fact I'd rather have an empty and clear desk and the computer unit hidden underneath with all the stuff inside. If they sized down the pro for mobility reasons, the idea of having peripherals OUTSIDE of the main unit chassis totally kills the purpose. In fact I see this new Mac Pro as a technological gadget, Apple's design exclamation point- "look what we are capable of!".
I'd like to have a machine that I can move around easily, take it from one point to another without the hassle, additional cables, thinking about connecting and disconnecting all the stuff. This would be revolutionary, not this new design. I just don't see this machine being 'pro'.. It should be 100% expandable-friendly, new mac pro formula isn't. Heck, for me they could just use the same old chassis and make it even more expandable / customizable, with the newest and most powerful components. I'd be happy with that, much happier with what's being announced. It is a new Mac Pro, but it won't meet the demands of the "pro" market.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: EricWHiss on June 13, 2013, 12:16:47 pm
I agree.  I don't want a desk top full of accessories with their own power supplies and cords, when I could have put it all inside the computer case.  I'd rather keep my old mac pro that holds 4 drives and has the pci expansion. 
Title: New Mac Pro: discuss this in the Computers and Peripherals forum?
Post by: BJL on June 13, 2013, 12:21:33 pm
Eric and Mr. Rib,

    Firstly, it might make more sense to discuss this in the thread in the Computers and Peripherals forum,
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=79252.0
since this thread has wandered far from Doug's original MF-related information.

Secondly ... my thoughts and questions related to your comments are there: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=79252.msg639032#msg639032
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: ACH DIGITAL on June 14, 2013, 09:42:06 am
This is from: http://blog.canadianwebhosting.com/intel-xeon-e5-chipwhat-you-need-to-know/ (http://blog.canadianwebhosting.com/intel-xeon-e5-chipwhat-you-need-to-know/)

"Anytime Intel releases a new server chip, it usually is a time for celebration.  What this means for server customers is more power for their servers and new technology integration that creates additional avenues for improved performance and design.  Earlier this week, Intel officially launched their latest Xeon E5 CPU platform, which delivers an estimated 80-percent performance gain over the previous generation of Intel's server chips.  With this platform, server customers have seen more than a 100x’s improvement in raw performance and processing power over the last 10 years."

"The new E5 Xeons each processor now has a maximum of 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes, with each lane running at a top level of eight gigatransfers per second — roughly equivalent to 6.4Gbps. The amount of power consumed by the chips has grown slightly, with thermal design power (TDP) for the E5 family ranging from 60W to 150W.  A new feature targeted at high-performance computing and supercomputing, named, Advanced Vector Extensions, which essentially doubles the floating-point performance of all the processors.  This is significant especially for customers with compute intensive applications like medical imaging, heavy database read/writes and customers working with heavy visuals."
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: bcooter on June 14, 2013, 11:32:55 am
I agree.  I don't want a desk top full of accessories with their own power supplies and cords, when I could have put it all inside the computer case.  I'd rather keep my old mac pro that holds 4 drives and has the pci expansion. 

Don't know the real world of the mac pro, but if it doesn't have more pci slots then it's another move of apple to make us work as they wish, not as we do.

It seems to me Apple believes that everything can be handled through TB and every, e-sata, fiber optic drive should be replaced my TB.

i think the new mac pro is for those guys that have a real clean designer desk, only work in a closed loop and love doing everything the way Apple decides that there way is the best way.

Kind of reminds me of FCP X.

I'd love to see Apple make a monitor that didn't have water stain looking issues, had the same color and luminosity for more than the center of the screen and actually calibrated.

Apple loves to make us crazy.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: EricWHiss on June 14, 2013, 11:56:43 am
BC,
Exactly right.  When you worked with a Mac there used to be multiple ways to get to the same point, now its often only just one way.  e.g., to get to the library you have to pull down the file menu and hold the option key.  Why? Apple thinks their users might mess it up and delete something important.  So its not just a matter of being restricted, but also it's implied that apple must think their user base is ... well let's say less sophisticated. 
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: TMARK on June 14, 2013, 12:34:19 pm
. . .  So its not just a matter of being restricted, but also it's implied that apple must think their user base is ... well let's say less sophisticated. 

Eric, yeah, but the flip side is the person who does accidentialy delete the Library and complains about it being too easy to delete. 

Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: fredjeang2 on June 14, 2013, 12:54:34 pm
This...was predictible

They want to target a different audience now. They want to sell a lot more cool stuff.
But it's not going to be for the niche workin pros of the entertainment producers, it's thought for the entertainment user.
The Apple we all knew years ago is not the same as the one that's now here.

The prob I see with this brand now it's that it's been so good in the past and users are so brand cultist about it that they can
do any crappery and everybody will ask if they aren't doin a genius manouver.

So they can do what they want, it's never going to be a mistake because "they-might-know-something-that-escapes-to-us"

The little prob is that more and more things are escaping to each time more people, at least in our world.

Who needs more marketing department wipping session out-there? Who's next?  Ok, laydown here, Apple master
is coming in a minute to train brand's obedience.
Apple makes cool stuff, repeat 10 times...slash...slash
Yes master
Apple knows something you don't, repeat 20 times...whippp
whiip whippp
Oh master...you're number one
FCPx is the best editing platform on earth, repeat 50 times...
....

?
....
This master, I don't know...
whipp
whipp
whipp


etc...
Title: Re: New Mac Pro, and less sophisticated users
Post by: BJL on June 14, 2013, 05:17:35 pm
Why? Apple thinks their users might mess it up and delete something important. ... it's implied that apple must think their user base is ... well let's say less sophisticated.
I would rather say that Microsoft and Apple both _know_ that the great majority of their users are, by your standards, "less sophisticated", and prone to "operator error": consider the frustratingly persistent success of trojan horse malware attacks, phishing break-ins and such, which certainly fool a lot of Windows users as well as Mac users, so I would dispute any claim for a greater degree of sophistication in the typical Windows user.  Any difference is more in how Windows and OS X deal with that reality of their very numerous "less sophisticated users". My sense is that Windows is aimed more at a work-place model with trained sysadmins who impose restricted privileges on non-admin users, and for home users, frankly on expecting them to install add-on security software, whereas OS X is adapted to having a far higher proportion of usage that is not in a workplace with trained sysadmins, so that most users are their own (untrained) sysadmins, and thus OS X aims to provide a higher level of built-in protection against the risks of "unsophisticated operator error". At the cost that us "power users" have to make one or two more clicks to do some things (like access /Library or ~/Library or UNIX-related resources) than 99% of users never have need to do.


P. S. There is actually more than one way to access your Library folder: as a UNIX old-timer, I use menu Go, item "Go to Folder ..." and type ~/Library
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Chris Barrett on June 15, 2013, 11:01:58 am
Not into it.  Just feels too restrictive.  I don't care how fast it is out f the gate, in a year it'll be lagging behind the PCs and you won't be able to upgrade the RAM or Graphics.  Lame, Apple.  Lame.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Mr. Rib on June 16, 2013, 02:27:01 pm
We still don't know if the components within the new Mac pro will be upgradable. If they aren't, sorry- I'm not even going to consider buying it, for reasons Chris just mentioned.
I'm really worried that the new path for pro users suggested by Apple is that they will be upgrading tech specifications of their mac pro machines every now and then and if we feel our machines aren't delivering, we have to buy new ones with better components, because mac pro won't be customizable/upgradable by the user. Heck, we are pro users so we should be able to find a way to afford these machines- once per year to keep things up to date :D
I sooo much hope I'm wrong with my asumption that it won't be upgradable..but I won't be shocked if that's the case. If I'm not wrong, well, so long Mac.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 18, 2013, 04:38:11 am
It depend I think if you like it or not to some other issues.
I for one LOVE it.

I don't mind using an TB to PCI-E convertor.
The only reason I use these is to access my external S-ATA drives (E-Sata cards).

However think about this.
The new MacPro is now so small that you can pick it up and drag it with you if you need serious processing power on location but you don't need the external drives. For me that's a game changer. With the old MacPro it never crossed my mind to bring it with me on location but now it opens up more possibilities than limitations.
The new macpro will still stand below my desk and the external PCI-E box will be somewhere where I can't see it.

As long as that works it's a big step forward I think.
Drives that are now inside can be build into an external USB3 or TB casing and problem solved.

For me I like the small form factor, it makes the MacPro a machine to carry with you on location much easier.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: bcooter on June 18, 2013, 08:09:57 am

I for one LOVE it.

I don't mind using an TB to PCI-E convertor.
The only reason I use these is to access my external S-ATA drives (E-Sata cards).

You know Frank, if you want a two piece tower computer that's great. I don't see why it needs to exist given the fact a hopped up I mac could do the same and you'd just need one case and a few thousand less out of your checking account.

The thing I don't get is why is Apple  has become  so my way or the highway?

This was a company that thought different, (or said they did) and fought IBM/microsoft  to offer flexibility and longetivity, but today they're more locked down than any device any company could have dreamed of and are down to the 18 months and out the door planned upgrade system.

I'm totally invested in Apple equipment, with powerbooks, towers and Imacs (not including pads, phones) we've got at least a dozen working Apple computers and heck, I've got old G4 computers in storage that have more flexibility than this machine.

Honestly First final cut X, Aperture, then the desktop flower vase?

Really Frank, do you honestly think Apple is producing equipment for the professional imaging market anymore?

Have you bought an Apple monitor in the last few years?  Every Apple monitor I own looks like somebody poured grey water in them and let it bake in the corners.

I just bought a 30" dell monitor that may not be pretty, but is honestly 75% more functional and stable than the Apple monitors.

Today, I don't know anyone producing high end work that hasn't had very hard thoughts about moving their main machines to PC boxes.

Keep in mind this is a company whose operating profit is over 70% vested in phones and yes they make pretty stuff, but IMO this is nothing but the cube with more plugs.

It'll look good on a Herman Miller desk, but in the real world . . . well.

I hope I'm 100% wrong, but I don't think so.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: BJL on June 18, 2013, 08:51:43 am
I don't see why it needs to exist given the fact a hopped up I mac could do the same ..
A "hopped up iMac" does not offfer a 12-core Xeon processor or dual high end graphics cards; these are very different categories of product.

On the other hand, I agree that probably a large proportion of people who needed a "workstation tower" in the past are now quite adequately served by a high-end iMac, especially if what expansion is needed can be handled by an iMac viaThunderbolt and/or USB3.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Craig Lamson on June 18, 2013, 09:32:22 am
A "hopped up iMac" does not offfer a 12-core Xeon processor or dual high end graphics cards; these are very different categories of product.

On the other hand, I agree that probably a large proportion of people who needed a "workstation tower" in the past are now quite adequately served by a high-end iMac, especially if what expansion is needed can be handled by an iMac viaThunderbolt and/or USB3.

The problem with the iMac will always be the display unless Apple does something to make it better.

Why buy and iMac just to sit a nice NEC in front of it?

Now for cooter, as a tether device on location ( and I think that was what he was alluding to) that iMac is better than a Macbook if you want a bigger screen and less cases.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Chris Barrett on June 18, 2013, 09:58:04 am
I've been holding off on buying a PC to see WHEN Apple's tower would come out... now everything has changed.  For most of my motion work the Nvidia cards are far more productive.  Both Premier and Resolve make better use of CUDA than Open CL.  I also need FAST storage.  My SAS RAID will do about 800Mb/s at best, are there any Thunderbolt RAIDs that beat that?  Even match it?  Also, Thunderbolt is as fast as, what, 4x PCIe?  That makes external PCI housings really unattractive.

My current workhorse is a 2010 12 core, 48 GB RAM, SSD Boot Drive, 12GB internal storage and 16GB external SAS storage.  PCI expansion chassis, 2x Nvidia Quadro 4000 & GTX 570, RedRocket, Decklink for HD-SDI out, RAID card, eSATA card...  I just can't see the cute little black garbage can replacing that...

I'm looking at the HP Z820 RED Edition (http://www.promax.com/s-170-z820-red-models.aspx).  Very roomy on the inside, built-in RED Mag readers, 7 PCI slots.  I think I could even ditch my expansion chassis.

I think the new MacPro will be great for many users, I just don't believe it's going to do it for me.  Drag.

CB
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: fredjeang2 on June 18, 2013, 10:48:33 am
I've been holding off on buying a PC to see WHEN Apple's tower would come out... now everything has changed.  For most of my motion work the Nvidia cards are far more productive.  Both Premier and Resolve make better use of CUDA than Open CL.  I also need FAST storage.  My SAS RAID will do about 800Mb/s at best, are there any Thunderbolt RAIDs that beat that?  Even match it?  Also, Thunderbolt is as fast as, what, 4x PCIe?  That makes external PCI housings really unattractive.

My current workhorse is a 2010 12 core, 48 GB RAM, SSD Boot Drive, 12GB internal storage and 16GB external SAS storage.  PCI expansion chassis, 2x Nvidia Quadro 4000 & GTX 570, RedRocket, Decklink for HD-SDI out, RAID card, eSATA card...  I just can't see the cute little black garbage can replacing that...

I'm looking at the HP Z820 RED Edition (http://www.promax.com/s-170-z820-red-models.aspx).  Very roomy on the inside, built-in RED Mag readers, 7 PCI slots.  I think I could even ditch my expansion chassis.

I think the new MacPro will be great for many users, I just don't believe it's going to do it for me.  Drag.

CB
Yep, great choice.

But remember that you loose Prores Writting on a PC.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: CUDA vs openCL, and fast external storage
Post by: BJL on June 18, 2013, 12:13:36 pm
For most of my motion work the Nvidia cards are far more productive.  Both Premier and Resolve make better use of CUDA than Open CL.

I also need FAST storage.  My SAS RAID will do about 800Mb/s at best, are there any Thunderbolt RAIDs that beat that?  Even match it?
On CUDA, I agree about current support of CUDA vs openCL, but idealistically, I like the idea of Apple pushing the open standard openCL that is supported by multiple hardware vendors over the proprietary CUDA, which locks one in to Nvidia graphic cards. (Small irony: Apple has pioneered and is championing the open standard openCL approach.)

On external hard drives:
- With spinning disks, they are the speed limit, and that is where that 800Mb/s comes from: SAS and TB2 are almost "idling" with them.
- With solid state mass storage, TB2 seems to offer the highest bandwidth at 20Gb/s per channel, compared to 12Gb/s for SAS, 6Gb/s for eSATA, and 5Gb/s for USB3, but with a recent plan announced to upgrade USB3 to 10Gb/s.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Frank Doorhof on June 18, 2013, 12:15:27 pm
Oh I agree BC, don't get me wrong.

We have the newest iMac also in the office (and 2 MacPro's and an older iMac).
IF the MacPro is highly overpriced (which I think it will be) I will probably switch to the iMac and use the external PCI-E housing there.
The thing however that really turns me away from the iMac is it's screen, I'm used to an Adobe RGB monitor, and although the new iMac looks gorgeous the image quality is highly inaccurate.

So yeah, Apple is not good there.

We tested some four cam recordings and I can do an multicam edit on the iMac without slowdown so in theory that machine would work just fine (also my old 12 core will work fine), so I'm not yet jumping up and down that I MUST upgrade, but I'm not negative about the new look, I do see some advantages of it. Problem is indeed you're locked in videocards, on the other hand if the software is optimized for those cards... well I just have to see (like we all).

Let's say the new MacPro will sell for 5000.00 than it's game over for me.
I'll wait till the 12 core doesn't cut it anymore and get a new iMac, add a big SSD drive and work from that one and just add two aRGB monitors and ignore the original monitor or keep it for my mails.

If it sells for 3000.00-3500.00 I will probably switch, over here the distri gives great cash backs, meaning I will probably have to shelve out 1500.00-2000.00 and I'm back up to date again. It all depends on the price for what I will do.

Seeing the drive, 2 videocards, memory etc. I'm afraid it's the MacPro I will never own, because honestly I'm afraid the machine will retail from 5000,00 and up. And for the love of it that's way too much and I will go to the iMac in 2014.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: jsiva on June 23, 2013, 01:22:00 am
Am I reading the specs right...will there be no dual CPU option on the new Mac Pro?
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: budjames on June 23, 2013, 08:02:14 am
I got tired of waiting for the "new" MacPro before it was announced at WWDC. I sold my 2007 8-core MacPro and replaced it with a new 27" iMac with 3TB Fusion drive, 32GB RAM and i7 3.4ghz processor.

It so much faster than my old MacPro (expected) and I have recovered a lot of space on my desktop.

The screen calibrates well using ColorMunki. Over all, I'm very happy.

I think that the new MacPro will sell a lot of iMacs.

Cheers.
Bud
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: TMARK on June 23, 2013, 11:17:53 am
I got tired of waiting for the "new" MacPro before it was announced at WWDC. I sold my 2007 8-core MacPro and replaced it with a new 27" iMac with 3TB Fusion drive, 32GB RAM and i7 3.4ghz processor.

It so much faster than my old MacPro (expected) and I have recovered a lot of space on my desktop.

The screen calibrates well using ColorMunki. Over all, I'm very happy.

I think that the new MacPro will sell a lot of iMacs.

Cheers.
Bud

+1. 

Unless you are doing serious motion, an iMac is ideal for a stills shooter.  Get an Eizo or NEC for critical color work and get to work.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: bcooter on June 23, 2013, 01:42:26 pm
I was in the apple store replacing my phone and it's probably been a year since I've walked into one.   

For the first time, I didn't look at any product, didn't inquire about anything new, because other than a phone upgrade there was nothing there I needed, though looking around the store there was more retail space given for headphones than there was desktops.

I guess that tells me something.

I agree with T, get a different monitor and an I mac and your good to go, unless you need pc slot expansion for video.

Maybe some enterprising third party will come up with a pci box that thunderbolts into an I-mac then I guess it's game over for Apple desktops.

Apple's monitors compared even to some lowly Dell's are just dismal.

It's funny during Apple's difficult period they made great professional gear, not so great consumer products.

Now, it's the opposite, which we all know works for them, just not so well for us.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Manoli on June 23, 2013, 02:03:16 pm
Maybe some enterprising third party will come up with a pci box that thunderbolts into an I-mac then I guess it's game over for Apple desktops.

Already been done - check out OWC (and not just for I-macs)
And incidentally, what's this 'little snitch' you keep on referring to ? Wouldn't be shutter snitch by any chance?
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: TMARK on June 23, 2013, 08:06:38 pm

Apple's monitors compared even to some lowly Dell's are just dismal.

It's funny during Apple's difficult period they made great professional gear, not so great consumer products.

Now, it's the opposite, which we all know works for them, just not so well for us.

IMO

BC


Yeah the monitor thing is just odd.  The last good ACD I bought was in 2006.  Its matt, a 24".  Even illumination.  Profiles up well.  I still have it, works great.  Its no Eizo, and I can see the difference, but its not night and day.  The new ACD's and iMac monitors are great for watching movies, but are very inconsistent between samples.  They don't get dark enough, either, which drives me nuts.  The MacBook Pro matte screen I'm looking at now is OK for field work, but still not GREAT.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: BJL on June 23, 2013, 10:20:07 pm
Am I reading the specs right...will there be no dual CPU option on the new Mac Pro?
Indeed, it seems that the second GPU is intended to provide the extra cores for parallel tasks: I have read that only one GPU is setup to handle normal graphics, so the other is effectively a massively multi-core numeric coprocessor.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: K.C. on June 23, 2013, 10:36:25 pm
It's funny during Apple's difficult period they made great professional gear, not so great consumer products.

Now, it's the opposite, which we all know works for them, just not so well for us.

Which is the reason they're still in business.

A lot's changed since John Sculley (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/17/sculley_says_apple_adapt_or_die/) was forced out by the board in '94.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: fredjeang2 on June 24, 2013, 05:48:29 am
+1.  

Unless you are doing serious motion, an iMac is ideal for a stills shooter.  Get an Eizo or NEC for critical color work and get to work.

Agree. I would not worry about Macs if for still
Config.
However, I'm noticing here (during this year) still photographers
Buying peecees for their "extra" motion works, even
On people who were pc allergics and all mac equiped.
The only little hassle is that the prores writing is not
Cross-platform. But in any case, the motion industry
Can't rely any longuer on codecs that block the game.
Prores is good,commercialy unviable.
There are other options like dnxhd 444 for adquisition, recently implemented
In the Alexa, and for archiving-mastering jpeg2000.
Even in democratized motion, raw video is on the corner
And as it became fashionable to edit and compo
Natively with consummer codecs, this practise
Requires lots of power. But for stills ? Mac is a great choice.

There is nothing that goes into serious composite into a codec form,
but sequences of Tiffs or Open Exr wich requires less calculations
but mostly bigger storage. And even so, people with Mac will be able
to cut comfortably with the new Macs, just that there will be faster
options out there, but I see the difference will be critical more on applications
like Smoke or Avid DS where the operators generaly do all the pipeline with
a single software intead of fragmentated, or people who work 4k
natively with accelerators. For those, it's probably time
to look at peecees.

The big deal is Prores. Because it's really the 4x4 codec suitable for
everything. But not the only one. The set to go from pc to mac and vice-versa
just to keep the prores writing is no fun and time consumer.
Be very aware of that. On pc you will read your prores
Material but have to conform to another grocery.

In fact, for the people who are doin motion but not involved into the
profesional chain as we know it, FCPx plus the new Macs could
in fact be a better option than peecees.
It would work fast and easier to learn.

When I think about it, those new Macs aren't that bad,
there aren't just for everyone's needs, like FCPx.


Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: Pete_G on June 24, 2013, 08:16:28 am
Yep, great choice.

But remember that you loose Prores Writting on a PC.

Fred,

Have you not tried FFMPEG or FFMBC for writing ProRes on a PC?

For instance, take a look at:

http://www.authorityfx.com/encoding-videos-in-prores-4444-on-windows/

A lot of people anyway, are starting to prefer DNxHD.
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: fredjeang2 on June 24, 2013, 10:41:32 am
Fred,

Have you not tried FFMPEG or FFMBC for writing ProRes on a PC?

For instance, take a look at:

http://www.authorityfx.com/encoding-videos-in-prores-4444-on-windows/

A lot of people anyway, are starting to prefer DNxHD.

Hi Pete,

Didn't tried it. When it showed-up there was issues reported and it seemed to me "not ready" or a work-in-progress. But I could be wrong,
(and it remains to be seen the metadatas area)

but the main reason is that I use Avid and therefore DNxHD works very well (even the 444 version).

Also, this is a "rescue" solution, because you need to ingest an exported medium in this software to write in prores, wich is in the end double writting.
Once to get the media out, and then once to get its prores version from the software.
It's not taking a QT reference (that I know) or not possible directly from the editor.
Therefore it can't interest very much the people who were on Macs or have invested on PC but kept their Macs.
But it can be a good option to have always disponible just in case. (but I'd test the metadatas generated, because PR4444 normaly being proprietary
we are talking about a "hack" or so)
Title: Re: New Mac Pro: What it means for Phase, Leaf
Post by: design_freak on June 25, 2013, 06:40:11 am
Time will tell ...
The truth is that now you complain. But as this product appears, pretty soon you'll find it at your desk  ;D