Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 30, 2013, 01:51:45 pm

Title: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 30, 2013, 01:51:45 pm
Chicago Sun-Times cuts entire photography staff (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20130530/NEWS06/130539987/chicago-sun-times-cuts-entire-photography-staff)

From the article:

"The Chicago Sun-Times and its sister suburban papers have eliminated their photography staff and will ask the papers' reporters to provide more photography and video for their stories..."
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: bill t. on May 30, 2013, 02:00:17 pm
What's-her-name at Yahoo was right.

edit...when she said, “There’s no such thing as Flickr Pro today because [with so many people taking photographs] there’s really no such thing as professional photographers anymore.”
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 30, 2013, 02:02:42 pm
You mean when she said there is no such thing as "pro photographer" anymore?

EDIT: Typed at the same time ;)
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: RFPhotography on May 30, 2013, 02:12:33 pm
Pretty short-sighted.  The quality of the still/video work will drop.  The quality of the reporting will drop.  Guess I'll be reading the Trib next time I'm in Chicago.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: bill t. on May 30, 2013, 02:43:15 pm
You mean when she said there is no such thing as "pro photographer" anymore?

At least we can gloat that she had the poor judgement to apologize just before this new revelation.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on May 30, 2013, 06:11:00 pm
I would imagine that the reality behind the fact is possibly sinking sales. Salaries...

Something always has to go; for me it meant cheaper cars (that still cost a lot more in real replacement prices) and inexpensive restaurant fare. The fun vanishes quickly in times like these.

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: louoates on May 30, 2013, 09:12:07 pm
The cuts were expected as part of a plan to survive. The company says it will still use freelancers. It reminds me of the shift from law office stenos to the lawyers doing their own typing. And ad agency art directors doing their own typesetting with word processors. Time marches on. Photo journalism will survive with freelancers.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: bill t. on May 31, 2013, 12:16:05 am
That's "freelancers" as in "smartphone owners."
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: EduPerez on May 31, 2013, 02:52:38 am
About six years ago, my wife was interviewed for the biggest newspaper here in Spain; and the image that illustrated the article was done by the same reporter that did the interview, using a P&S camera...
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on May 31, 2013, 04:37:18 am
I suspect that the movie industry will not be far behind, either. Should af become good enough, cameras light enough and sensors fast enough, the damage to the employment figures could be severe...

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: LoisWakeman on May 31, 2013, 07:06:14 am
The quality of the reporting will drop. 
It already did when they fired all the subs years ago. UK broadsheets and news sites like the BBC are full of typos, the wrong correctly spelt word, howling grammar errors and impenetrably written copy. Now the pictures will be going the same way :(
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: WalterEG on May 31, 2013, 07:56:45 am
There were 40 photographers retrenched by Murdoch in Sydney a couple of months ago.  The remainder are now 'pooled' to service all the publications, from dailies to local over-the-fence rags and glossy magazines.

Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: kaelaria on May 31, 2013, 09:25:14 am
I think the bigger question is - who cares?  The answer is a very, very small set of the population, dwindling daily.  Newspapers are just like the yellow pages.  Sorry if that pisses some of you off from the biz, but it's reality and fact.  Newspaper websites are no better.   They won't be the last to drop the photo staff, that's for sure. 
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on May 31, 2013, 10:13:02 am
I think the bigger question is - who cares?  The answer is a very, very small set of the population, dwindling daily.  Newspapers are just like the yellow pages.  Sorry if that pisses some of you off from the biz, but it's reality and fact.  Newspaper websites are no better.   They won't be the last to drop the photo staff, that's for sure.  




That's very important, and I think your view is correct: not many!

Look at tv lists and it's very difficult to plot an evening's watch - mostly, on a good night, there may be two programmes worth the watching. And the repeats; dear God, the repeats! Top Gear is on every week, and the shows are so old it's not even funny. It's not really funny even when they are new, unless men being silly is entertaining. Poor old Richard Wilson is cursed to an eternal drive around old English roads of the 50s - a motoring Flying Dutchman, poor sod. And at his age, that can't be fun. I hope he gets repeat royalties for his pains. I've seen so many shows about historical Rome that I could probably write my own film; Henry VIII hasn't a secret left, and his wives' heads have been on and off so often I'm sure they can do it by themselves now. As for railways - ex-politicians feather nice nests from using them; that guy Georgie Bradshaw should have been lynched or been put onto a train on a circular track with no way off it.

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 31, 2013, 10:58:19 am
I think the bigger question is - who cares?...

I, for one, care.

And here is why (metaphorically speaking):

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

"First they came…" is a poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller
(1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the
Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group
after group.

So... group after group, profession after profession, factory after factory, town after town... are laid off, downsized, closed... families devastated, schools emptied, towns turned into ghost towns.

The latest reports claim that Americans have not recovered even a half of the wealth lost in the Great Recession. Jobs lost have not returned and perhaps never will. The unemployment stats are dropping, but mainly because millions of long-term unemployed are dropping out of statistics, giving up hope they will ever find work again.

And yet... corporate profits and cash reserves are at a historic high. Wealth of the wealthiest is higher than ever.

The old cynic (realist?) in me says, like you did: "Who cares? Thats how the world works. Deal with it."

The young at heart in me says: "Something ain't right here!?"
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: kaelaria on May 31, 2013, 11:33:23 am
I think that's taking things way too far.  The bottom line is - this just doesn't matter. It's not useful, it's not important.  Otherwise - it would still be in demand.  They aren't dropping the staff because they have tons of money and just feel like it or want to be mean or oppress anyone.  There is no demand.  They have no money.  It's a failed business model, no matter how many (few) people want to be nostalgic about it.  It's no different that wailing about 'oh noes, they discontinued my favorite film'.  Frankly I'm shocked newspapers are still even around, period.  Every media owner KNOWS there is no turnaround, they are just riding the company to the grave prolonging it to eek out any meager 'profits' left.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Jim Pascoe on May 31, 2013, 12:09:04 pm
I think that's taking things way too far.  The bottom line is - this just doesn't matter. It's not useful, it's not important.  Otherwise - it would still be in demand.  They aren't dropping the staff because they have tons of money and just feel like it or want to be mean or oppress anyone.  There is no demand.  They have no money.  It's a failed business model, no matter how many (few) people want to be nostalgic about it.  It's no different that whaling about 'oh noes, they discontinued my favorite film'.  Frankly I'm shocked newspapers are still even around, period.  Every media owner KNOWS there is no turnaround, they are just riding the company to the grave prolonging it to eek out any meager 'profits' left.

I think you have got it right here.  Though when you mentioned whaling I thought you were talking about the lost whaling industry - until I realised you meant wailing! ;D

Jim
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 31, 2013, 12:10:12 pm
... They aren't dropping the staff because they have tons of money and just feel like it or want to be mean or oppress anyone.  There is no demand.  They have no money.  It's a failed business model..

Agree. They are just acting in their best self-interest.

However, I was looking at a bigger picture. What we are witnessing is a variant of the Game Theory's "prisoner's dilemma", where everyone is acting to further their own self-interest, yet, as a whole, everyone ends up worse off. "Everyone" defined as "significant majority".
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Isaac on May 31, 2013, 12:18:58 pm
I assumed kaelaria meant that craigslist destroyed the newspaper business model (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10247668-93.html).
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: 32BT on May 31, 2013, 12:26:44 pm
yet, as a whole, everyone ends up worse off.

How so? How do you figure we are worse off?
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: kaelaria on May 31, 2013, 12:27:55 pm
LOL exactly...oh noes, no more newspaper that most people stopped even THINKING ABOUT let alone reading, YEARS ago!
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 31, 2013, 12:38:22 pm
How so? How do you figure we are worse off?

I just explained it in the second part of the reply #14.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: 32BT on May 31, 2013, 01:02:21 pm
I just explained it in the second part of the reply #14.

Right, but perhaps I should rephrase:

How are we as news-consumers worse off?

As for the jobs argument: we have been through that discussion in the 80s when computer automation and robotics emerged, but I can not honestly say that "we" as a whole are any worse off because of the jobs that were destroyed, changed, and created as a result of that automation...
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 31, 2013, 01:17:24 pm
Right, but perhaps I should rephrase:

How are we as news-consumers worse off?

As for the jobs argument: we have been through that discussion in the 80s when computer automation and robotics emerged, but I can not honestly say that "we" as a whole are any worse off because of the jobs that were destroyed, changed, and created as a result of that automation...


Again, i was talking big-picture, not just photographers or news-comsumers.

As for emerging technologies, it is worth noting that it is only one factor that shapes the current crisis. It is also worth noting that the current crisis appears to be different in nature than the cyclical ones in the recent past. It is significantly longer, affecting much broader spectrum (vs. single technological disruption), has not reached even a half of most pre-crisis indicators, and appears to be systemic, rather than cyclical. Since it has not recovered even a half of what's been lost, one can argue we are still worse off. Perhaps in the longer run (and it has already been the longest one, or one of), we might be better off, but, as we know, in the long run we are all dead.

EDIT: Come to think of it, aren't we, as news-consumers, indeed going to be worse-off with the amateurish iPhone videos and photographs?
Not if we accept the new-generation definition of photography, which equates it with Instagram.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 31, 2013, 01:30:28 pm
Another, satirical take on the news:

Journalism experience will disqualify you (http://jimromenesko.com/2013/05/31/fake-sun-times-ireporter-ad-any-journalism-experience-will-disqualify-you-for-this-position/)
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Chairman Bill on May 31, 2013, 01:37:38 pm
Fortunately the UK Guardian & Observer put some store behind the quality of of their photography - for now. I'd hate to see something similar happen here.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Peter McLennan on May 31, 2013, 04:55:36 pm
EDIT: Come to think of it, aren't we, as news-consumers, indeed going to be worse-off with the amateurish iPhone videos and photographs?

I don't think so.  The ubiquity of cameras means that we get coverage of things we'd never otherwise see.  The meteor strike in Russia last winter is a prime example.  Even though the image quality wasn't pristine and the composition was random chance rather than carefully considered, we all got to see some pretty astonishing images.  From multiple angles, even.

Before the firebombs start, please understand that I'm not in favour of eliminating professional photographers, nor do I think that phone cameras are as good as a D800 at imaging our world, it's just that being on the spot with any camera counts a lot.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on June 01, 2013, 04:33:07 am
I don't think so.  The ubiquity of cameras means that we get coverage of things we'd never otherwise see.  The meteor strike in Russia last winter is a prime example.  Even though the image quality wasn't pristine and the composition was random chance rather than carefully considered, we all got to see some pretty astonishing images.  From multiple angles, even.

Before the firebombs start, please understand that I'm not in favour of eliminating professional photographers, nor do I think that phone cameras are as good as a D800 at imaging our world, it's just that being on the spot with any camera counts a lot.




I remember hearing someone quote another person, whose identity I have fogotten, thus: I would swap all the paintings of Christ for just a single photograph.

Makes sense to me.

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rocco Penny on June 01, 2013, 11:18:41 am
I, for one, care.

...
,
...
,

So... group after group, profession after profession, factory after factory, town after town... are laid off, downsized, closed... families devastated, schools emptied, towns turned into ghost towns.

The latest reports claim that Americans have not recovered even a half of the wealth lost in the Great Recession. Jobs lost have not returned and perhaps never will. The unemployment stats are dropping, but mainly because millions of long-term unemployed are dropping out of statistics, giving up hope they will ever find work again.

And yet... corporate profits and cash reserves are at a historic high. Wealth of the wealthiest is higher than ever.

The old cynic (realist?) in me says, like you did: "Who cares? Thats how the world works. Deal with it."

The young at heart in me says: "Something ain't right here!?"


My dear man,
you have made my kinda disappointing morning worth a second look.
That's how it will be dismantled.
Piece by piece.
The bad set up will not remain.
I am sure of it...
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: RSL on June 01, 2013, 12:35:10 pm

The latest reports claim that Americans have not recovered even a half of the wealth lost in the Great Recession. Jobs lost have not returned and perhaps never will. The unemployment stats are dropping, but mainly because millions of long-term unemployed are dropping out of statistics, giving up hope they will ever find work again.

And yet... corporate profits and cash reserves are at a historic high. Wealth of the wealthiest is higher than ever.

The old cynic (realist?) in me says, like you did: "Who cares? Thats how the world works. Deal with it."

The young at heart in me says: "Something ain't right here!?"

From where I stand it looks as if the "young at heart" (not the one in you, Slobodan) seem to feel everything is just hunky dory. Those unemployed folks are being taken care of by endless unemployment compensation from the inexhaustible government stash (also known as taxpayers' money, but it would be unsatisfactorily PC to mention that). Kids out of college don't know that the economy hasn't recovered even half its previous wealth because they get their "news" from TV and McParagraph (otherwise known as USA Today). They don't worry too much about not being out of a job. After all, they can stay under their parents' medical coverage until they're middle-aged, and as far as income is concerned, see above. Seems to me that it's the old cynics who see that "Something ain't right here!"

At the moment I'm going through the Great Courses lectures on the World of Byzantium. When I hear or read again (last time was Gibbon, long ago) about the end of the Roman Empire it almost seems as if I'm reading the editorial page in the WSJ.

Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 01, 2013, 01:07:20 pm
... Those unemployed folks are being taken care of by endless unemployment compensation...

Russ, let me correct this common misconception of "endless": benefits last max two years and we in the fourth year since the crises has begun. I, for one, have been out of benefits (for which I previously paid through unemployment insurance) for almost two years. I am, as well as millions of others, not only out of benefits, but we are also out of unemployment statistics, which is why the unemployment rate seems to be falling.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: RSL on June 01, 2013, 01:14:06 pm
Okay, maybe "endless" was a bit of an exaggeration. And yes, I'm well aware of how the administration and its captive news media have been cooking the unemployment books.

Hope you find employment soon, Slobodan.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Chairman Bill on June 01, 2013, 01:44:30 pm
You could always get a job as a staff photographer ... oh, wait ...
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 01, 2013, 01:44:52 pm
... I'm well aware of how the administration and its captive news media have been cooking the unemployment books.

Statistical methodology that excludes long-term unemployment long predates the current administration. I guess it was just another variant of the Y2K problem: at the time when it was devised, nobody expected that millions would remain (unwillingly) unemployed for more than two years.

Quote
Hope you find employment soon, Slobodan.

I am thinking of switching professions. Finance is so last century. I was thinking pizza delivery, but there are now more pizza delivery boys (which would suit the young at heart in me) than pizzas.

So... I am thinking photography, I heard it is quiet lucrative, no? ;D
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: RSL on June 01, 2013, 02:19:50 pm
Statistical methodology that excludes long-term unemployment long predates the current administration. I guess it was just another variant of the Y2K problem: at the time when it was devised, nobody expected that millions would remain (unwillingly) unemployed for more than two years.

Right. But recently we've seen a rush to pretend that the cooked results are real.

Quote
So... I am thinking photography, I heard it is quite lucrative, no? ;D

No :-[ Not unless you can get Christie's or Sotheby's involved. Unfortunately, Rhine II already has been done and you just don't look like Cindy Sherman -- unless that's not really you in the avatar.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: dreed on June 01, 2013, 07:35:30 pm
Learn to use the iPhone as a professional camera:

Chicago Sun-Times Fires Photography Staff, Offers Reporters iPhone Camera Classes (http://appadvice.com/appnn/2013/06/chicago-sun-times-fires-photography-staff-offers-reporters-iphone-camera-classes)

btw, this thread could have been named much better...
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: 32BT on June 02, 2013, 06:07:20 am
http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/01/after-your-job-is-gone/ (http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/01/after-your-job-is-gone/)
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Chairman Bill on June 02, 2013, 06:13:02 am
This is how the world ends - robots take all the jobs, people have no money to buy the goods & services the robots provide, the robots get laid off, then Skynet becomes self-aware. Let's just hope Sarah Connor has her act together.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Robert Roaldi on June 02, 2013, 09:04:49 am
http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/01/after-your-job-is-gone/ (http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/01/after-your-job-is-gone/)

Remember those TV shows back in the 1970s that talked about how in the future robots would be doing all our dirty work and humans could, for the first time in history, not worry ourselves with daily chores but instead pursue higher goals. I wonder if they were thinking about photography or youtube videos. Somehow, they never talked about who was going to pay us to do that all that artistic pursuing, so that we could pay the rent and buy groceries in between those high-paying gallery exhibitions.

Is this creative destruction? Some of the think tanks say that this is good and healthy. I hope it all works out.

Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: dreed on June 02, 2013, 09:29:21 am
Is this creative destruction? Some of the think tanks say that this is good and healthy. I hope it all works out.

I wonder if the think tanks would say the same if it were there jobs being threatened by robots or AI...
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on June 02, 2013, 09:41:02 am
This is how the world ends - robots take all the jobs, people have no money to buy the goods & services the robots provide, the robots get laid off, then Skynet becomes self-aware. Let's just hope Sarah Connor has her act together.




Don't bank on saviours: Arnold has already had a heart event and I think Rambo has gone to ground again.

But yes, I do think that the world has been blind. It was too easy and oh, so fashionable to blame the Luddites for everything, but I saw this coming a long time ago. Not only with the demise of different work opportunities, but also with the failure of design and art to retain its value in society. Look at the 50s US car industry and now: I saw a newish black Cadillac the other day - a very rare even here - but it was not large, it was squarish from the back, and the only marque indicator was the Cadillac script on the tail... would a '58 or '59 have been so utterly anonymous? I don't think so. Look at current Mercedes cars, too: bars of soap. With all of them, you guess where the front and rear might be. That's design improvement, you understand. Extend the thought to cameras: what looks sexy now? Nothing. When did anyone in the first world last take a toaster to the shop for a repair? Throw everything out and buy more crap.

As we have fought for the newest everything, we have sacrificed true value and reliability born of experience and the time to make evolutionary corrections to products. It's bling before common sense and usefulness. An image of a half-eaten apple is more desired than any alternative that works as well; it even sells stuff that isn't absolutely necessary but hell, that makes more sense than spending the same on good food instead of fast.

I guess there's a common death wish abroad.

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 02, 2013, 02:23:02 pm
I was passing by a religious bookshop in my downtown, when I noticed this sign in the window. It seems to express well what the 28 laid-off guys must be feeling right now (and not just them). I am not so sure about the offered solution, though.  ;)

I wonder if sending this to them might help? Ironically, I took the photo with my iPhone.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Chairman Bill on June 02, 2013, 02:37:58 pm
I'd guess that praying to any of the million-odd gods posited to exist at some point in human history, or even praying to a can of baked beans, would potentially work as well as not praying at all. Frankly, if I was after work, I'd look for something more useful to do with my hands, and my time.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Robert Roaldi on June 02, 2013, 09:24:31 pm
Maybe there's a placebo effect.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 28, 2013, 01:28:35 pm
As reported by Mike Johnston, The Online Photographer, this is what you get with Sun Times' iPhone "freelancers" vs. Chicago Tribune's professional photographers:

http://suntimesdarktimes.tumblr.com/post/53967466726/front-pages-june-26-2013
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Isaac on July 04, 2013, 02:50:03 am
Quote
[Newsday senior digital photo and video editor] says that all reporters will be trained to shoot video, and that the first person on the scene of a story needs to be thinking about the visuals at the same time as he is taking out his pen and notepad.

"A decade ago, when I first started, visuals were a distant second place in this business, but that has forever changed. Now editors will stress that the visuals drive the story," he said.

...

Pick up any of the newspapers or magazines you currently read and you will find an online version, and that version will undoubtedly offer a rich array of video content. The journalists who survive will be those who adapt to this powerful storytelling medium.

p155 The Age of the Image (http://books.google.com/books?id=jD1ZRjx2VcgC&lpg=PP1&dq=the%20age%20of%20the%20image&pg=PA155#v=snippet&q=%22all%20reporters%20will%20be%20trained%20to%20shoot%20video%22&f=false): Redefining Literacy in a World of Screens, Stephen Apkon, 2013.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rand47 on July 08, 2013, 08:55:03 am
As the consensus shifts from seeing mankind as unique, to merely another animal, we have begun to abandon our penchant for storytelling and are rapidly moving in the direction of brute "signaling" as animals do. 

The decay of language skills, the insistence on politically correct terminology (sending the right signal - as opposed to discussion of issues), and the elevation of the happy-snap as reportage, are all merely symptoms of our devolution.

I would also include the mimic-ography of endless repetition of landscape icons in this.  We're getting to the place were the only thing distinctive about the human species of animal is his narcissism. 

Rand
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Isaac on July 08, 2013, 01:55:55 pm
As the consensus shifts from seeing mankind as unique, to merely another animal...

The consensus shifted to seeing mankind as unique, and still another animal.

"Honest signals are behaviors that are so expensive or so directly connected to the underlying biology that they become reliable indicators that others use to guide their own behavior. People possess these same signals in addition to conscious language. (http://books.google.com/books?id=GmUXGwq8O9EC&pg=PR12&lpg=PR12&dq=%22Honest+signals+are+behaviors+that+are+so+expensive%22&source=bl&ots=VCdCTEKBD9&sig=SpnWcAJixQgj7EEPD4NI3meZ_G8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UfraUfS6J-ahiQLknoG4Ag&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Honest%20signals%20are%20behaviors%20that%20are%20so%20expensive%22&f=false)"
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rand47 on July 08, 2013, 02:05:10 pm
The consensus shifted to seeing mankind as unique, and still another animal.

"Honest signals are behaviors that are so expensive or so directly connected to the underlying biology that they become reliable indicators that others use to guide their own behavior. People possess these same signals in addition to conscious language. (http://books.google.com/books?id=GmUXGwq8O9EC&pg=PR12&lpg=PR12&dq=%22Honest+signals+are+behaviors+that+are+so+expensive%22&source=bl&ots=VCdCTEKBD9&sig=SpnWcAJixQgj7EEPD4NI3meZ_G8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UfraUfS6J-ahiQLknoG4Ag&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Honest%20signals%20are%20behaviors%20that%20are%20so%20expensive%22&f=false)"

Interesting perspective.  Wrong, but interesting.   ;D
This kind of naturalism-come-utopia, laden with meaning (in a fundamentally meaningless existence) is just another sop for the masses dressed up as hip and scientific.
The signals that humans use are loaded with context from language.  As we lose language, we'll lose meaning for these signals and devolve into more primitive kinds.

Rand
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 08, 2013, 02:15:19 pm
As the consensus shifts from seeing mankind as unique, to merely another animal, we have begun to abandon our penchant for storytelling and are rapidly moving in the direction of brute "signaling" as animals do. 

The decay of language skills, the insistence on politically correct terminology (sending the right signal - as opposed to discussion of issues), and the elevation of the happy-snap as reportage, are all merely symptoms of our devolution.

I would also include the mimic-ography of endless repetition of landscape icons in this.  We're getting to the place were the only thing distinctive about the human species of animal is his narcissism. 

Rand

So nice to stumble on a different and new angle (for me, at least). Thanks for that.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: tom b on July 10, 2013, 06:33:12 pm
For 14 years I bought the local broadsheet and read it with a coffee before work. It would be a very rare occasion if I spotted a typo.

Two years ago I started reading that broadsheet's online edition. What was once a rare event has become normal. It is now quite common to see a typo in an article and I spotted five in a recent one. I get the feeling that editors are a dying breed.

The other thing that I have noticed is the increased use of stock images, what was one rare is now very common. Staff photographers are going the way of editors.

One interesting thing that I have noticed is that the British Guardian newspaper now has an Australian online edition. I have been reading British and American news articles as well as local ones and it is interesting how reporters from different countries describe the same news item.

Cheers,
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on July 11, 2013, 03:59:39 am

One interesting thing that I have noticed is that the British Guardian newspaper now has an Australian online edition. I have been reading British and American news articles as well as local ones and it is interesting how reporters from different countries describe the same news item.Cheers,


Hence the difficulty about 'truth' and what that might be.

But you only need to read two different UK newspapers to find conflicting reporting aobut the same things... it's called political slant or bias. That nations see things differently is hardly surprising.

Trouble seems to be that folks don't like to use their own heads to figure out basic realities - they prefer to let someone else, preferrably a political or religious power group, tell them what to think. Pretty much the only thing anyone needs to understand is that in life you get nothing for nothing other than your mother's milk. For a while. Everything else becomes a trade, and the older you get the harder the deal.

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rand47 on July 11, 2013, 10:23:46 am
Quote
Pretty much the only thing anyone needs to understand is that in life you get nothing for nothing other than your mother's milk. For a while. Everything else becomes a trade, and the older you get the harder the deal.

While there is some truth in this, it certainly is a sad and poverty stricken view of life.  At the risk of seeming condescending, I ache for you. 

Rand
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on July 11, 2013, 12:02:44 pm
While there is some truth in this, it certainly is a sad and poverty stricken view of life.  At the risk of seeming condescending, I ache for you.  

Rand



Though I appreciate your concern, save your sympathy: I certainly don't ache nor do I feel emotionally poverty-stricken!

I do feel frustrated, but that's nothing to do with my realizations about life - just geography and a dead house market. Also, when you don't expect much from people, the very occasional time when something nice unexpectedly comes along, you sure appreciate it!

Makes me think of the old saw: it's not what you do for people that they remember, it's what you don't do for them. Gratitude is mostly a short-lived beast. You know, I have several guys around my own age with whom I spend chatting time now and again; every one of them has either a wife, an ex-wife or more, child or children, or the entire complement; each one has a problem with one of the factors in his personal equation with the rest of his group. Great joy seems pretty thin on the ground. Can't buy me love applies to family as to business... what's sweet is sweet, and what's sour has possibly curdled. Pray there's no rennin in your kitchen.

Some say that luck is what brings success; nonsense: it's that tree in the garden - the one I shake every morning and then pick up the fifty-euro note that falls.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Isaac on July 11, 2013, 12:17:16 pm
Pretty much the only thing anyone needs to understand is that in life you get nothing for nothing ...

You get the whole world.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on July 11, 2013, 03:36:44 pm
You get the whole world.


For nothing?

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Isaac on July 11, 2013, 04:32:44 pm
Who did you pay for that breath?
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on July 12, 2013, 04:34:48 am
Who did you pay for that breath?


The same system that I have to pay for my food, my lodgings, my health, my clothes and heating, my entertainment and, eventually, my death: the nature of life.

Take away money earned, stolen or found, and you die. Pretending that anything, even the air you breath is free, is ridiculous, as you well know. A semantic fib is all it is.

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Isaac on July 12, 2013, 01:04:40 pm
Pretending that anything, even the air you breath is free, is ridiculous, as you well know. A semantic fib is all it is.

The air you breath is still a commons, as you well know.

You take your life to be a given and don't acknowledge the gift.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: RSL on July 12, 2013, 01:39:01 pm
I agree with Isaac on this one. You were created for free, and, having been dumped into the world and having survived because of your parents' willingness, on their own dime, to bring you to a point where you can survive on your own, you then face what Rob's talking about. The air is free, the sunshine is free, the rain is free, but if you want to survive you have to work. At that point it's up to you. The world is your oyster if you want to work your butt off and if you're intelligent enough that your work will pay off. If not, you're SOL.
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rand47 on July 12, 2013, 07:09:34 pm
The air you breath is still a commons, as you well know.

You take your life to be a given and don't acknowledge the gift.

Isaac,

You should have that carved in stone.  When we lose sight of the gift that life itself is, well . . . that is the definition of poverty, IMO.
There's an old saw about not being able to control circumstances, but being able to control our reaction to them and what we do with them.

The cult of cynicism in modern culture is a joy stealing, soul robbing disease.

Rand
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: churly on July 12, 2013, 07:53:08 pm
Right on Rand!  As soon as you decide you are a victim of the system that is exactly what you become.
Chuck
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on July 13, 2013, 05:43:54 am
Boy, do some of you enjoy your soporific, anodyne clichés of the state of the world!

Bless you all!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rand47 on July 13, 2013, 09:52:42 am
Boy, do some of you enjoy your soporific, anodyne clichés of the state of the world!

Bless you all!

;-)

Rob C

Rob,

Sometimes clichés are clichés because they are true and common knowledge among the non-cynical and embittered!  :-)

Blessings back at ya!
Rand
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Rob C on July 13, 2013, 10:23:03 am
Rob,

Sometimes clichés are clichés because they are true and common knowledge among the non-cynical and embittered!  :-)

Blessings back at ya!
Rand


No; I think that would be truisms.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: churly on July 13, 2013, 10:35:21 am
Atta boy Rob.  Grip onto that world view with everything you have.  Otherwise it may collapse.  Oh, and make sure to trot it out regularly and proclaim, 'Mine is BEST!!'.  That provides the validation.

Bless you as well, although I suspect that you don't need or want my blessing.  :)  Group hug.

Keep on writing, sometimes you hit the nail on the head and sometimes you miss by a mile.  But then that is our condition.

Chuck
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 13, 2013, 11:46:37 am
Speaking about natural resources... Can we go back to the coal production profitability in the Coal Lady's era, please (or was it the Iron Lady)? So much more interesting than the cost of free (or "free") resources and the meaning of life ;)
Title: Re: So... You wanna be a photographer?
Post by: Isaac on July 13, 2013, 11:58:39 am
Interesting perspective.  Wrong, but interesting.

Please be specific - wrong in what way?

The decay of language skills, the insistence on politically correct terminology (sending the right signal - as opposed to discussion of issues), and the elevation of the happy-snap as reportage, are all merely symptoms of our devolution.

Decay of language skills or change in language skills? Did senators in imperial Rome send the right signals or did they discuss issues? Where specifically is "the happy-snap" used as reportage?

If by "devolution" you mean something like de-evolution then you have conflated evolution with progress from less-advanced to more-advanced - that is not what evolution means in biology.

I would also include the mimic-ography of endless repetition of landscape icons in this.  We're getting to the place were the only thing distinctive about the human species of animal is his narcissism.
 
When you "include the mimic-ography of endless repetition of landscape icons" you provide no reason for doing so.

Yet another thing distinctive (and actually significant) about the human species of animal is cooking.