Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: BJL on May 23, 2013, 01:08:39 PM

Title: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: BJL on May 23, 2013, 01:08:39 PM
Leica is teasing a "mini M" at its Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/LeicaCamera placing it between the M and the X2 which its describes as "Micro M". The only likely options I can think of are:
a) interchangeable lenses and AF, in the smaller 24x16mm format of the X2.
b) same 36x24mm format as the M, but with a fixed lens like the X2.

I am hoping for (a), though clearly it involves the bigger investment of some new Leica lenses to do it right.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Chairman Bill on May 23, 2013, 01:21:09 PM
Maybe a Leica challenge to the Fuji X range?
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Chairman Bill on May 23, 2013, 02:01:06 PM
It would be good if it came with a mini-price too
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Rob C on May 23, 2013, 03:07:26 PM
It would be good if it came with a mini-price too


That would even be its saving grace.

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: eronald on May 23, 2013, 05:03:31 PM

That would even be its saving grace.

Rob C

Don't count on it - the basic idea of the luxury industry is that averages sales prices must keep climbing.

Edmund
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Rob C on May 23, 2013, 05:29:58 PM
Don't count on it - the basic idea of the luxury industry is that averages sales prices must keep climbing.

Edmund


Maybe we need a digital Minox spy camera!  I would still enjoy sliding it in and out... now that would be a luxury!

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: LKaven on May 24, 2013, 12:44:54 AM
Worth remembering this little gem, which seems to be the clear point of reference for the mini-M:

http://www.cameraquest.com/leicacl.htm
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on May 24, 2013, 04:48:09 AM
I think it will be option b) with fixed lens.

A X2 with optical viewfinder a la Fuji X100, smaller than the M?
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: hasselbladfan on May 24, 2013, 01:28:39 PM
A small CL camera with a 40mm would be great.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Telecaster on May 24, 2013, 05:14:54 PM
Worth remembering this little gem, which seems to be the clear point of reference for the mini-M:

http://www.cameraquest.com/leicacl.htm

The CL is a great little camera indeed, and the Leitz 40mm f/2 is an overlooked gem. The meter in my CL no longer works so I use a Voigtlander hotshoe jobbie instead. The whole thing fits in an interior jacket pocket...perfect for travel. A digi version w/ 40mm (or equiv) lens...I might just go for that.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Roberts J on May 25, 2013, 04:46:54 PM
How about option
c) same 36x24 (FF) format interchangable lens camera with electronic viewfinder (FF mirrorless camera), but without optical viewfinder and rangefinder mechanism? AF may be yes, may be no, may be possible in future.

That's prediction of dpreview.com - http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/23/leaca-teases-mini-m-for-11th-june-release

And this is most reasonable option from my point of view, too.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: BJL on May 25, 2013, 05:37:16 PM
c) same 36x24 (FF) format interchangable lens camera with electronic viewfinder (FF mirrorless camera), but without optical viewfinder and rangefinder mechanism? AF may be yes, may be no, may be possible in future.
Agreed: I did not think of that one, but I am happy to add it to the speculation menu!
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Roberts J on May 29, 2013, 12:02:27 AM
Leica changed teaser photo on Monday. Now it looks like option b)
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: LKaven on May 29, 2013, 05:39:55 AM
I might have expected that Leica would refer to every camera as having "M" DNA, even inflating their compact camera to M status.  A "nano-M", my foot.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: LKaven on May 29, 2013, 06:04:33 PM
The latest intelligence on this camera, also posted at DPR:
http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/first-image-of-the-leica-m-mini/

Get out your smelling salts for the projected price: $3100  Now who would buy this, he asked?  It's an APS-C sensor at the price of a FF sensor.  The lens has max f/6.4 aperture at 70mm.  It just seems that Leica wants to take their "M" dna and go laughing all the way to the bank.  I'd buy the Fuji over this thing without a moment's pause.  Does Leica, like Hasselblad, think that every outsourced camera they create that bears their marque is instantly an art treasure?  At least the Luna/Sony accepts your choice of lenses, including M mount lenses.

Summary:
The Leica Mini M is an APS-C sensor camera with fixed zoom lens! These are the specs:
- Leica Elmar 28-70mm f/3.5-6.4 (FF equivalent)
- 16,1 Megapixel APS-C sensor.
- external electronic viewfinder can be used
- Full Aluminum body
- FullHD recording
- Bundled with Photoshop Lightroom.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: TMARK on May 30, 2013, 11:47:05 AM
The box is open a bit.  It looks like it has a finder window.  Its not the "leaked" photo of the point and shoot.

Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: BJL on May 30, 2013, 01:19:04 PM
The box is open a bit.  It looks like it has a finder window.
Where do you see that? On the Leica Camera Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/LeicaCamera, all I see in the open box is a "crescent moon" sliver from the left edge of the lens.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: TMARK on May 30, 2013, 02:49:37 PM
Where do you see that? On the Leica Camera Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/LeicaCamera, all I see in the open box is a "crescent moon" sliver from the left edge of the lens.

Looked again.  I'm not so sure now, but it looks like there is a distinct change in contrast where a finder window would be, as if its glass in that spot.  I HOPE so, because the zoom mirrorless with the slow lens is just too disapointing.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: bcooter on May 31, 2013, 02:34:37 PM
Looked again.  I'm not so sure now, but it looks like there is a distinct change in contrast where a finder window would be, as if its glass in that spot.  I HOPE so, because the zoom mirrorless with the slow lens is just too disapointing.



Leica brings out emotion, good and bad.

The people that love them and can afford them will buy them, regardless of anything said, any review. 

The people that think an electronic camera is some kind of blasphemy, or feel a Red Dot isn't worth the money won't.

I personally cannot walk by a Leica counter and not want to buy almost everything.  The S, The R, most M, I dig em.

The problem is they don't do most of what I need, but damn, it's so hard not to buy.

Can you easily tether an S?  If not, that's just nuts considering the price, the size of the camera.

I don't know anyone that can shoot a commercial project without the client's wanting to see every image. 

Why didn't Leica make some type of  real Digital R?  When you think Leica you think 35mm and I believe had the R had autofocus, they would have sold boatloads of them, or at least a lot more than they did.

I think the R is the most beautiful 35mm camera I've seen.

As I mentioned I just bought a 4/3's gh3 and a box of lenses.  It's not a beautiful camera, but it is a camera that does just about everything.

For the GH I bought the M to Pana adapter and couldn't wait to see it with Leica lenses and honestly they're not really disappointing, but not over the moon better, or as good as the 4/3's 2.8 zooms. 

Finally with the 90 I could actually see the framing and focus, and it works great on the 4:3's platform,  but there is ca, and it's not as pretty or consisently sharp as the Panasonic 2.8 zooms with o.s..

BTW:  I've compared the gh3 to my last year's 1ds3's and I can see virtually no difference in quality at comparable iso, image quality, which really surprised me as I expect a sensor 1/2 the size to have a more limited result.

Maybe I'm reading into it because it's new, but I must admit so far I'm surprised with this small format.

But back to Leica.

I think they've put themselves into a rock and a hard place.  Like Porsche that wouldn't introduce any car except rear engine, without feeling the heat of traditionalists.

Then they finally broke loose offered an SUV and it became their best seller.

I have a friend that's a celeb that loves everything Leica, carries it around the world and comes back with about 50% in focus.

His partner takes a 5d something and comes back with 80% in focus.

Leica should ask him if he wants an interchangeable lens camera with autofocus that is a full frame leica, not a mini, nano whatever.

Anyway.

In regards to what Leica charges, I've never understood that complaint. 

They charge what they can get and I'm all for charging what you can get.   

I mean what photographic brand name draws the high end attention of Leica?

When we have all of our cameras on set and working, nobody, client's, talent, crew notices the dslrs.  The only thing clients mention is the Red 1 but everybody looks over at my old M8 and picks it up and looks through it.

I don't know what they expect to see, but probably something special.

Leica just draws people in.

You take a Fuji x1pro, toss it over your shoulder and everybody will ask, is that a leica?


IMO

BC
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: BJL on June 07, 2013, 03:23:56 PM
The latest intelligence on this camera, also posted at DPR:
http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/first-image-of-the-leica-m-mini/

Get out your smelling salts for the projected price: $3100  Now who would buy this, he asked?  It's an APS-C sensor at the price of a FF sensor.  The lens has max f/6.4 aperture at 70mm. ...

Summary:
The Leica Mini M is an APS-C sensor camera with fixed zoom lens! These are the specs:
- Leica Elmar 28-70mm f/3.5-6.4 (FF equivalent)
- 16,1 Megapixel APS-C sensor.
- external electronic viewfinder can be used
- Full Aluminum body
- FullHD recording
- Bundled with Photoshop Lightroom.

Indeed the latest updates at https://www.facebook.com/LeicaCamera and http://leicarumors.com/ make it look like this, which I also did not anticipate, so I will call option (d) --- as in the letter grade I would give it.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M" - Tokyo will know first
Post by: hasselbladfan on June 10, 2013, 08:14:15 AM
I guess our Japanese friends will be first to know .....  ;)
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: telyt on June 10, 2013, 10:16:43 AM

Get out your smelling salts for the projected price: $3100  Now who would buy this, he asked?  It's an APS-C sensor at the price of a FF sensor.  The lens has max f/6.4 aperture at 70mm.  It just seems that Leica wants to take their "M" dna and go laughing all the way to the bank.  I'd buy the Fuji over this thing without a moment's pause.  Does Leica, like Hasselblad, think that every outsourced camera they create that bears their marque is instantly an art treasure?

The target market is China, where the demand for high-end goods of all kinds is matched only by the distain for anything Japanese.  BTW an outsourced product wouldn't be marked "Made in Germany".
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: bcooter on June 10, 2013, 12:46:27 PM
For 3 grand they sell the heck out of these (at least in Leica terms) and how many people shoot any leica wide open?

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Rob C on June 10, 2013, 01:04:06 PM
For 3 grand they sell the heck out of these (at least in Leica terms) and how many people shoot any leica wide open?

IMO

BC


I thought that's what they were for? Or were you thinking dentists and stockbrokers?

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: TMARK on June 10, 2013, 02:29:35 PM
The Mini-M is the last camera I would ever consider.  But its not for me, so have at it Leica.

Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: telyt on June 10, 2013, 03:24:31 PM
Many think it's compulsory.

I consider it optional.  That's not what I think when using most other (non-Leica) lenses.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: LKaven on June 10, 2013, 09:42:50 PM
For 3 grand they sell the heck out of these (at least in Leica terms) and how many people shoot any leica wide open?

When wide open is f/6.4, how much choice does that leave one?

Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: BJL on June 10, 2013, 10:09:07 PM
When wide open is f/6.4, how much choice does that leave one?
Indeed: that is the same DOF control as f/9.6 in 35mm format. Or from where I stand: when wide open gves you smaller maximum effective aperture diameters and thus less DOF control than Four Thirds format with its mid-speed f/2.8-3.5 and f/2.8-4 zooms, and the inferior low-light performance that also goes with such limited maximum aperture sizes ...
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: telyt on June 10, 2013, 10:24:57 PM
When wide open is f/6.4, how much choice does that leave one?

Irrelevant in the target market; from a Hong Kong Leica dealer: http://leica-users.org/leica-users/v52/msg08754.html

The X Vario is perfect for the 'hers' side of a his-and-hers set.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: LKaven on June 10, 2013, 11:19:07 PM
Irrelevant in the target market; from a Hong Kong Leica dealer: http://leica-users.org/leica-users/v52/msg08754.html

The X Vario is perfect for the 'hers' side of a his-and-hers set.

Wow.  So an M9P plus Noctilux is given as the "his" side of the gift, and the X1/X2 as the "hers"?  To business "acquaintances"?  And likely never used? 

Is this like a thinly veiled bribe for getting a contract?
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: telyt on June 11, 2013, 12:50:49 AM
Wow.  So an M9P plus Noctilux is given as the "his" side of the gift, and the X1/X2 as the "hers"?  To business "acquaintances"?  And likely never used? 

Is this like a thinly veiled bribe for getting a contract?

Possibly.  And a costlier purchase for an item not made in Japan creates a better impression than a camera that represents a better value.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: bcooter on June 11, 2013, 05:47:32 AM

I thought that's what they were for? Or were you thinking dentists and stockbrokers?

;-)

Rob C

I've seen a lot of people that were amateur photographers carry non M cameras.  They may not know every F stop, or how to processes a file in 12 layers in photoshop, but they like to take pictures and they like fine equipment.    Love it, or hate it, a lot of people that we call dentist and investment bankers, still enjoy photography, some very much and love the thought of the traditional Leica name.

Making a faster constant 12 to 25 or 24 to 50 constant F 2.8 lens would have been nice but been a big lens.  My 12 to 35 pana lens is big and it's made for 4/3's.   I don't think that would have made a great carry around lens for that camera.

Leica could have also made fast primes in the 1.8. 1.4 range but that doesn't make a single carry along camera.

Also the days of format are not as important as they were in the film era.  I like larger formats, they have some great advantage, but really, the proof is in the lcd.  If the image looks good, then format is forgotten.  I just received my omd with four fast primes, from 12 to 75 and in ten minutes I forget it's not a traditional 35mm full frame format.  The 75mm is a 150, the 12 a 24 the 25 a 50 and once on the camera I never think about conversion factors or anything other than the image.

Overall, the new mini it's not a camera I think I'd buy, but it's not a bad idea and I am sure the people that buy it will enjoy it.

I hope Leica does well with it, real well, because it helps infuse cash into their other lines.

Still, I find it interesting that some man people love Leica, so many have the opposite take.   For me I learned photography from the old Leica Manual I checked out of the Library a billion times, so maybe I'm partial.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: LKaven on June 11, 2013, 06:35:11 AM
BC, I like Leicas.  I like Panasonics too.  But what I truly hate is a fake-out on a short con. 

Even worse, the Lunar.  After looking at that camera, I need a shower and a pumice stone.
Title: Leica "mini M", officially announced as the X Vario
Post by: BJL on June 11, 2013, 12:22:53 PM
Making a faster constant 12 to 25 or 24 to 50 constant F 2.8 lens would have been nice but been a big lens.  My 12 to 35 pana lens is big and it's made for 4/3's.   I don't think that would have made a great carry around lens for that camera.

Leica could have also made fast primes in the 1.8. 1.4 range but that doesn't make a single carry along camera.
I agree that there are trade-offs, and a lot of photographers mostly cared about large apertures for speed, not for artistic OOF effects, and for them, modern sensors allow adequate speed with zoom lenses rather than primes, and with zooms of smaller maximum apertures, all combining to give smaller, lighter cameras that can still in most respects greatly outperform 35mm film cameras. But some middle ground on zoom lens speed, like f/3.5-5.6 or f/2.8-4 might have been more appropriate for a brand associated with high quality.

I hope Leica does well with it, real well, because it helps infuse cash into their other lines.
Yes, maybe this is the pragmatic, unsentimental approach.

P. S. for "closure" here is the official news, but with no surprises:
http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/compact_cameras/x_vario/
Title: Even the weight is disappointing given the small maximum apertures
Post by: BJL on June 11, 2013, 05:04:51 PM
The one last hope of a justification for the Leica X Vario's small aperture 18-46mm, f/3.5-6.4 lens was keeping size and weight down. But it weighs 680g (with battery), slightly more than the 660g of the Fujifilm X-E1 with its longer and far brighter 18-55mm f/2.8-4 kit lens (also with battery --- and with EVF, IS in the lens, and the ability to swap lenses, all of which the Leica X Vario lacks).

I have not seen a measurement of the depth of the XE-1 with the 18-55 attached, but the height and width of the two cameras' bodies are very similar, so from the photos, the depth looks similar too:

(http://2.static.img-dpreview.com/files/news/8430983422/X-Vario-right.jpg)

(http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-e1/images/allroundview.jpg)
Title: Re: Even the weight is disappointing given the small maximum apertures
Post by: hasselbladfan on June 11, 2013, 05:49:55 PM
.... the Fujifilm X-E1 has the ability to swap lenses, all of which the Leica X Vario lacks ....

I would say even more .....

..... on the Fuji X-E1 you can put Leica M prime lenses, which you cannot on the Mini M .....

You wonder if Leica ever listens to its consumers.

Very disappointing.
Title: Re: Even the weight is disappointing given the small maximum apertures
Post by: TMARK on June 11, 2013, 06:49:28 PM
I would say even more .....

..... on the Fuji X-E1 you can put Leica M prime lenses, which you cannot on the Mini M .....

You wonder if Leica ever listens to its consumers.

Very disappointing.

I think Leica does listen to the voice of the consumer, and in this case the voice is speaking Mandarin.
Title: Re: Even the weight is disappointing given the small maximum apertures
Post by: telyt on June 11, 2013, 11:12:13 PM
I think Leica does listen to the voice of the consumer, and in this case the voice is speaking Mandarin.

+1
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: TMARK on June 11, 2013, 11:39:45 PM
Irrelevant in the target market; from a Hong Kong Leica dealer: http://leica-users.org/leica-users/v52/msg08754.html

The X Vario is perfect for the 'hers' side of a his-and-hers set.

In the west luxury consumption is a flat or declining market. It may seem hard to believe, but it's part of the Great Recession's hangover. People would rather spend on cultural goods or low key, utilitarian, honest, quality goods with a transparent manufacturing and supply chain.  In China conspicuous consumption is still in vogue, and will be for some time. 

I say have at it Leica. Sell cases of these things, spend the profits on M and S development.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: LKaven on June 12, 2013, 12:18:20 AM
I wonder why they are peddling the same line in the west?  It seems they would be risking putting many of us off the brand.  I'll always have a certain suspicion about them.

Have you ever heard of the term "costly signaling"?  It refers to the expenditure of one's evolutionary advantage in measure to signal to another animal that you have fitness to spare.  For example, there is a gazelle that makes a display of jumping up and down in front of a lion, expending some of his valuable energy.  The intent is to signal to the lion that he has enough fitness to spare that he wouldn't be worth the lion's effort. 
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: LKaven on June 12, 2013, 06:02:57 AM
BTW, has anyone noticed that the leather case for the X-Vario has a conspicuous cutout in just one place -- over the red dot.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Rob C on June 12, 2013, 08:24:57 AM
BTW, has anyone noticed that the leather case for the X-Vario has a conspicuous cutout in just one place -- over the red dot.


Ah! The male version of crotchless knickers!

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Rob C on June 12, 2013, 11:43:41 AM
BTW, has anyone noticed that the leather case for the X-Vario has a conspicuous cutout in just one place -- over the red dot.



There were no cut-outs required in my day: we wore our hearts on our sleeves. This old thing must be about forty-five years old now, and it took me all over the world - at least, where I wanted to go - and within it could live all the analogue tools I ever needed to shoot a shoot. I'm reminded of Cooter's three trucks and I thank my lucky stars I'm one of the ancients!

Okay, the tripod travelled hold.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Hulyss on June 12, 2013, 02:20:53 PM
Already for sale in my Leica Store, what a junk lol

Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: stevesanacore on June 14, 2013, 09:02:41 AM
I'd love to see a comparison of this camera with the Canon G1X - they seem very close in specs and Canon's G series have always been popular with pros for a pocket camera. Then of course are the fabulous M4/3 cameras which are small and very high quality.

What a silly step backwards for Leica in the professionals eye. A real mini M would have been fantastic!
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: BJL on June 14, 2013, 10:45:02 AM
I'd love to see a comparison of this camera with the Canon G1X - they seem very close in specs and Canon's G series have always been popular with pros for a pocket camera.
Given how big and heavy the X Vario is as fixed lens cameras go, I would also suggest comparing it to the Sony NEX-6 with 18-55/3.5-5.6 lens attatched: this X Vario probably uses the same 16MP Sony sensor, has a slightly slower lens of more limited zoom range, weighs about 130g more, is slightly wider and higher, lacks a built-in EVF ... and ironically, it is the NEX-6 that could be used with Leica M lenses. The Fujifilm X-E1 with its 18-55/2.8-4 is also of similar weight, size and sensor specs.

That Leica lens better be stunningly good, because it effectively adds about US$2000 to the price when you compare the rest of the body to comparable CSC bodies like the NEX-6 or Fujifilm X-E1.

At least you can get the add-on EVF for $200 instead of the list price of $500 -- by using instead the Olympus VF-2.
Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: TMARK on June 14, 2013, 11:59:24 AM
Regarding the Western market for the "Mini M", I had dinner with the head of marketing for a large Fortune 500 company.  She is mid to late 50s, makes $3M a year before stock options (according to SEC filings), has very good taste.  We were talking cameras, and she said she intended to get this Mini M to replace her M8.2.  Why?  The M8.2 doesn't have a zoom, is not AF, and can't shoot from the screen, and is complicated to use when she wants to simply take a snap shot.


Note price never entered the conversation.  The message I received is that she wants RX100 auto flexibility in an M-Like metal box, with a Red Dot.  

Title: Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
Post by: Petrus on June 14, 2013, 12:29:43 PM
For 3 grand they sell the heck out of these (at least in Leica terms) and how many people shoot any leica wide open?

IMO

BC

Now everybody has to...