Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Landscape & Nature Photography => Topic started by: Chairman Bill on May 19, 2013, 07:37:32 am
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I see that juliandecourcy has taken umbrage with my comments on his Dartmoor thread http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78359.0;topicseen (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78359.0;topicseen), & left.
Here's what I said; "I've spent a lot of time on Dartmoor, and I've never seen it quite that black, except for night-time. I love shadows & I hate how HDR can strip them away, but this is just too much for my liking."
Now I thought that it was pretty clearly written, but English is my first language, so maybe it isn't. 'I love shadows', and apparently 'I hate how HDR can strip them away', which is true, all of it. I really like shadows, and I hate how HDR strips them away. But juliandecourcy's photo simply has way too much shadow, even for shadow-loving me, which is what I meant when I wrote "... but this is just too much for my liking."
So how on earth do we get to me accusing him of using HDR?
Is this my bad English, or juliandecourcy's poor comprehension?
And is this really cause to leave the forum? Wow.
BTW, why is the thread locked?
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The OP has the ability to lock a thread. I see that the OP also packed up and left a hole in Dartmoor - too bad and as mysterious as some of the old tin mines I used to chuck stones down as a kid.
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Is this my bad English, or juliandecourcy's poor comprehension?
And is this really cause to leave the forum? Wow.
No, your comments are perfectly reasonable and quite clear to me.
The problem is that some people aren't prepared for any sort of criticism, they only want favourable comments. There's also the school of thought that says "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything".
Looking back at previous posts, quite of few of images posted have black foregrounds.
It's somewhat ironic, given the image being discussed, that his blank website is titled 'Highlight Photography'
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Chairman B. - couple of thoughts. 1. J de C.'s response was utterly ridiculous...generally speaking most folks would want to "clear up any confusion" in a reply before going nuclear. 2. That said, I read your comment and I would offer up this. Your sentence opens up about "his photo" in particular (no comments about other photos or other styles of photography)...then you immediately say "I love shadows & I hate how HDR can strip them away, but this is just too much for my liking." So all in one short statement your impression is...J. de C's photo > too dark>hate how HDR>this is just to much for my liking. I most likely would never have read it any other way than the OP did...
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brandtb - OK, maybe you're right & it was open to misinterpretation. Might have been good to check my intent before leaving so abruptly though.
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I'm sort of failing to understand how being "accused" of using HDR is a bad thing in the first place (is HDR really so much worse than merely overcranking the sliders and ending up with an "HDR look"?).
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Might have been good to check my intent before leaving so abruptly though.
Exactly...
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I posted this in the OP thread, before it was locked, and am reposting it here for those who did not see the thread:
"Julian,
This is uncalled for. You got numerous accolades and only one or two remarks, not even criticism, and you are leaving!?
Chairman Bill is a good man, good photographer, and he certainly knows what he is talking about. He is also entitled to his likes and dislikes. Without your reaction, some of us would have engaged in a reasoned discourse as to why we like it that dark in this case (not to prove him wrong, but to express the opposing view).
Pardon me for saying this, as English is only my second language, but I really do not see how Bill "accused" you of using HDR. I simply can not read it in his sentence. Bill made a general statement ("I love shadows"), followed by another general statement (general = not directed to you) how he hates "how HDR CAN (emphasis mine) strip them away." Nothing in his sentence indicates he thinks YOU used HDR. He simply stated he likes shadows, but not that black."
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I'm sort of failing to understand how being "accused" of using HDR is a bad thing in the first place (is HDR really so much worse than merely overcranking the sliders and ending up with an "HDR look"?).
That's sort of my thought as well. FWIW, I *did* think that CB implied that there was some HDR involved in the OP, but for the life of my I can't figure why that would have elicited the reaction it did. One thing I've come to learn (and appreciate) aboutt his forum is that people will speak their mind, for better or for worse, but in this case I honestly can't understand why offense was taken.
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Julian's Flickr account says that he was recently diagnosed with Parkinsons. Perhaps there is more than meets the eye here. I have no idea how such grim news would affect my general disposition. I took a look at some of his work and was quite impressed with his vision and skills. Let's hope that he reconsiders his departure from LL, and also hope that things work out as best they can for him in life.
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Ron that is a very insightful post.
We all wish Julian the best!
Tony Jay
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Looking through the Flickr Photostream is quite revealing, especially when you also read other past contributions here. I'm not convinced by the psych answer myself, I think it's much simpler.
He's a pretty good photographer, but almost certainly hasn't got a decent monitor or one that's set up correctly.
So many of his images have crushed shadows that improve with increasing the brightness, I'd bet his monitor is set too bright. This would also account for the apparently over saturated colours others commented on. Thinking that an Apple store is an example of monitor perfection is flawed too.
I'd bet that given time, we'd have a 'my prints are too dark' thread from him eventually if he'd stayed around.
There's a useful lesson to be learnt here. If several people think there are issues with your work it's worth considering if there are any technical issues with it you've not been aware of.
Great kit doesn't make photographers better, but poor kit can make your photographs worse than they could be.
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brandtb - OK, maybe you're right & it was open to misinterpretation. Might have been good to check my intent before leaving so abruptly though.
I don't think you wrote anything for which you can be criticised. Some people have thin skins, Bill; and "HDR", while it can produce some ghastly stuff, isn't (yet) a term of abuse.
Jeremy
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It is easy afterwards to be "wise". If Bill had used the words....if this is HDR ....then there wouldn't have been a problem? I agree with Bill's thoughts on HDR. The image has now been deleted and I didn't see the original. I think it is unfortunate that posters can delete a thread if they don't like the way the thread is progressing. Maybe a "better" solution is for an aggrieved poster to appeal to the moderator for a deletion and let him make an objective decision on the merits of the thread. Hopefully Bill doesn't leave and get lost on Dartmoor. ;D Ironically I believe there is an asylum situated there? ;)
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The image has now been deleted and I didn't see the original.
I'm still seeing it here.
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Here's what I said; "I've spent a lot of time on Dartmoor, and I've never seen it quite that black, except for night-time. I love shadows & I hate how HDR can strip them away, but this is just too much for my liking."
Now I thought that it was pretty clearly written, but English is my first language, so maybe it isn't. 'I love shadows', and apparently 'I hate how HDR can strip them away', which is true, all of it. I really like shadows, and I hate how HDR strips them away. But juliandecourcy's photo simply has way too much shadow, even for shadow-loving me, which is what I meant when I wrote "... but this is just too much for my liking."
So how on earth do we get to me accusing him of using HDR?
Is this my bad English, or juliandecourcy's poor comprehension?
I also read the sentence as meaning image was an example of too much HDR.
If you carefully read both sentences one can see you do not think the picture is HDR, but when reading second sentence it does read like you're saying there is too much HDR. What you should have written is "I love shadows & I hate how HDR can strip them away, but there is just too much black in this photo for my liking." as that is far clearer as to what you meant.
And is this really cause to leave the forum?
No.
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I don't think you wrote anything for which you can be criticised. Some people have thin skins, Bill; and "HDR", while it can produce some ghastly stuff, isn't (yet) a term of abuse.
Uh, I've seen it used that way. HDR=crap image in some people's mind.
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He seems to be quite active on the FM forum, particularly on the OM-D images subforum of Alternate Gear and Lenses (juju1958):
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1127925/140#lastmessage
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... If you carefully read...
Strange how it can work wonders for one's comprehension, isn't it? ;)
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http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1127925/140#lastmessage
Thanks for the link. That site has some awesome work on display.
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I'm still seeing it here.
Ah! the picture (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78359.msg629339#msg629339) has magically re-appeared ;D
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Ah! the picture (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78359.msg629339#msg629339) has magically re-appeared ;D
And it's a fine one.
Chris, Can you wave your magic wand and make Julian come back to the forum, too?
Eric M.
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Weird. Even after clearing my cache, I still just get a Flickr error message. Perhaps my internet tube is connected to the wrong supply tube?
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Weird. Even after clearing my cache, I still just get a Flickr error message.
That's all I get too.
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Likewise. All I get is the deleted message and I am logged into the site.
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....If you carefully read...
Strange how it can work wonders for one's comprehension, isn't it? ;)
Tsk, tsk! Taking part of a one sentence out of context changes it quite significantly as that is not what I said or meant.
I also read the sentence as meaning image was an example of too much HDR.
If you carefully read both sentences one can see you do not think the picture is HDR, but when reading second sentence it does read like you're saying there is too much HDR.
You shouldn't have to re-examine and carefully parse every sentence to understand what someone is posting though, it should be clear on first read. Which it wasn't due to not it not being clearly written.
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Which it wasn't due to not it not being clearly written.
? ;)
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? ;)
Ah, Eric, naughty you! You are again:
"Taking part of a one [sic!] sentence out of context changes it quite significantly as that is not what [he] said or meant"
;)
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Ah, Eric, naughty you! You are again:
"Taking part of a one [sic!] sentence out of context changes it quite significantly as that is not what [he] said or meant"
;)
Well, I do try to carefully read, but I also try to generally avoid split infinitives. :(
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... You shouldn't have to re-examine and carefully parse every sentence to understand what someone is posting though, it should be clear on first read...
To be clear on first read, several factors need to converge:
1. One needs to write at an elementary-school reading comprehension level. Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Are_You_Smarter_than_a_5th_Grader%3F_(U.S._game_show)). All bets are off if someone ventures beyond that level ;)
2. One needs to understand what HDR is
3. One needs to be familiar with basics of formal logic (e.g., syllogism):
Major premise: HDR opens (lightens) shadows
Minor premise: Shadows in the OP photo are too dark, blocked (i.e., the opposite of open)
Conclusion: The OP photo is thus not an HDR
I, however, sympathize with your apparent inability to synchronize all three pre-conditions. ;)
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Ah! the picture (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=78359.msg629339#msg629339) has magically re-appeared ;D
...and disappeared. ???
Akin to my magical animated gifs ::)
Is it perhaps time for me to delete both of these threads?
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Jayney
I can't see the image anywhere, bloody Flickr is down and I'm understanding the complete opposite to what Julian felt. Bill said he likes shadows and how HDR strips shadows away. IE that there is too much detail in the shadows, an issue some people have with HDR. He than says the shadows in the image are too dark for his taste. That's the complete opposite to the affect of HDR so how can he feel he was accused of using HDR.
It's crazy that he felt the need to leave the forum based on not quite the harshest analysis anyone could make.
Bill. You've done nothing wrong.
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Is it perhaps time for me to delete both of these threads?
...mais oui
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Is it perhaps time for me to delete both of these threads?
Well, if I'm interpreting you correctly ;) ... maybe you should. This one has served its purpose anyway.
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Well, I do try to carefully read, but I also try to generally avoid split infinitives. :(
Not splitting infinitives is a nonsensical and irrelevant rule that came about as a result of some idiot teachers such as Henry Alford trying to shoehorn Latin rules onto English. English is rather obviously not Latin or even a Romance language seeing as it is Germanic in origin, so bit of a dumb idea all round really
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Is it perhaps time for me to delete both of these threads?
No. This one is entertaining.
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And the picture seems to be back.
And the original thread unlocked. I just posted a comment on it.
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LOL. Still just an error message for me. What a teaser this one is.
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Yes please - DELETE - Although some of the comments are helpful, the bantering is rubbish and does not add to the tone of this forum. He said...she said..he said...blah...blah...blah...ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz.
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Yes please - DELETE - ...
???
It is often said that the worst form of censorship is self-censorship. Thanks for the confirmation.
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Yes please - DELETE - Although some of the comments are helpful, the bantering is rubbish and does not add to the tone of this forum. He said...she said..he said...blah...blah...blah...ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz.
The bantering is the tone of the forum. And if you don't like a thread there's a really simple solution don't read it. ;D
Censoring threads you do not like or find interesting is the best way to destroy a forum.