Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on May 06, 2013, 11:20:35 pm
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For my US friends, I just finished reading "Lesterland - The corruption of congress and how to end it" on TED books.
It is a more developed version of this Ted speech: http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim.html
For once, this isn't about Democrats vs Republicans or us against them.
For those who have ready it/seen it, I was wondering how the views of the author were considered by LL readers/contributors?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Superb. Duly forwarded.
Thanks, Bernard.
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Indeed.
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We should be proud of this! The best damn government money can buy.
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Or you can just watch "House of Cards" on Netflix, the US version, with the brilliant (as usual) Kevin Spacey.
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Things are indeed getting ugly in Washington. Makes you miss the innocent days of Richard Nixon, doesn't it? ;-)
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Things are indeed getting ugly in Washington. Makes you miss the innocent days of Richard Nixon, doesn't it? ;-)
"Getting?"
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"Ramping up more than we've ever seen before" ?
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Yeah, but it's been ugly all along. It's just that the bugs are crawling out from underneath the rocks so people can see 'em.
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It will now take a truck load of RAID and a lot of stomping to get rid of our self-created bug problem in Washington and in many of out state houses...
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It will now take a truck load of RAID and a lot of stomping to get rid of our self-created bug problem in Washington and in many of out state houses...
When you've done that, send what's left to the Strip at the eastern edge of the Mediterranean; they have problems too. Okay, it's not in their houses, but it is in their land, so I guess they have a right to look after it and try to keep it in order...
Palestine, India, Rhodesia, Kenya, Suez, Iraq, Afghanistan etc., what a sorry history of deception, betrayal and cowardice on a grand scale. Viva Zapata us.
Rob C
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Not watching the ted-
I think you can easily write to and lobby your representative, and your senator.
Say you can't go ahead-
a single well thought out and well expressed concern can do wonders.
Yep one good thing.
Dismantling the bad set up one deed at a time.
One good thing.
The problem isn't congress or anyone else.
The problem is ourselves.
One good deed,
try it,
you'll see,
one good deed.
everyone on a single day at a single moment in a single unison.
One good thing-
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....
The problem isn't congress or anyone else.
The problem is ourselves.
...
Finally, a word of reason in this thread!
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Finally, a word of reason in this thread!
Yes, of course we are ultimately the problem because we vote them in.
But, until we have votes limited to an eductated electorate, and where so few even reach the end of their basic schooling with any real certificates, an educated vote is going to happen no time soon.
I know, I know, if they are old enough to sign up for a life (or death) in the forces etc. etc. but it doesn't work like that in life: you really have to be aware of the consequences of your vote.
Anyhow, it seems to me that the only way of achieving change (should you want it) is via the street. Political parties only pander to their usual/traditional class of voters. And as far as I can see, it is about class and probably always will be that way. Sadly, it's usually only those with next to nothing to lose who take to the streets in order to make their points. When governments don't see you on tv, you don't exist.
Rob C
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Yes, of course we are ultimately the problem because we vote them in.
Not only because of that. As much as some like to liken them to cockroaches, politicians are simply human, i.e., the same as most of us. Meaning, following incentives and pursuing their interests and interests of their constituents (this is where we come into play, again).
But, until we have votes limited to an educated electorate...
Wouldn't solve the problem. Politics is not a pursuit of noble knowledge, but a brutal game (some would argue war) of crude interests. Education, like any tool, can be used for good or misused. Educated spin of crude interest is just a dangerous and damaging as uneducated following.
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Slobodan's right. And the only thing that's going to end this circle-jerk is serious term-limits that put an end to career politics. Problem is that to get that done you've got to convince career politicians that it's time to end their gravy train. Don't think it's going to happen any time soon. As Alexander Tytler said, and I paraphrase: "A democracy can only exist until the people discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury." If you look around you realize we've reached that point. In fact, I'm afraid we've passed it.
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Trouble with ending career politics is that all that experience and contact-building in the international arena goes to waste if re-election is impossible. Yes, local city-hall politics might be cleaner, but from things I know first-hand, all you get with a change of structure is a new power structure with its personal friends taking over old opportunities once enjoyed by the previous incumbents of the magic circle.
The solution is to be found in honourable people, and part of my thinking on elected officials is this: 'nobody whom wants to stand for office should be allowed to stand for office.'
Rob C
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Another point of view:
http://youtu.be/yuJKj4NSBW8
Rob C
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. . .all that experience and contact-building in the international arena goes to waste if re-election is impossible.
Exactly one of the reasons it's such a good idea.
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Exactly one of the reasons it's such a good idea.
But then it would be a matter of reinventing the wheel every couple of years: we'd still be in the Cold/Hot Wars of the middle ages!
On the other hand, if we restored the divine right of kings...
Rob C
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Some of the comments seem to indicate that the 2 core points of the author have been misunderstood.
According to him the issues is that
- US electors can only vote in people who have been pre-selected by a bunch of a hundred powerful influencers,
- The lobbying carreers awaiting politicians after retirement further corrupt the system.
He is also outlining reasonnable non partisan approaches to kill the current vicious circle. Non partisan meaning that Democrats would benefit just as much as Republicans from this.
It is really about giving back the control of the congress to the citizens.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Sorry, Bernard, but "the 2 core points" are simply an example of intellectual BS. You can prove almost anything under the sun if you cherry-pick your facts and rearrange them conveniently. The lefties seem to have this romantic notion of what politics is, and how the world works (or, rather, how it should work).
As I said earlier in the thread, politics is (mostly) a brutal game (war) of crude interests, not of noble ideals. This is how the world works (and not just in the US).
As for crowd-funding, proposed as a solution, isn't it exactly how Barack Obama won the first election? By getting an extraordinary number of less-than-$200 contributions? There are also numerous examples on city, state and national level of candidates who won in spite of being underfunded (compared to their rivals). Had this not been true, all elections would have been won simply by comparing the size of election coffers.
There are candidates who fell out of favor of both parties, ran as independent, and won (Senator Lieberman, for instance).
Probably most facts the guy used are correct, but the real question is: so what? It is just stating the obvious. The obvious being: that is how the world works - incentives and interests. It is a two-way street: those interests ("funders") are looking for candidates to represent them, not just the other way round. Those candidates who do not want to "sell" themselves to the big funders, can (and did, like Obama) ask for small donations from a larger number of funders.
In other words, nothing new here (nor exclusive to the U.S.), just another example of how Little Johnny (read: romantic lefties) imagines the world of grown-up politics should look like.
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Yep, it is a brutal world.
Politics is simply the management of that world and keeping a veneer of civility and mutual understanding present.
Where it breaks down is where it is new: Arab Springs spring to mind: nobody there seems really to understand what it's about - politics - and confuses it with some magical Open Sesame that brings everyone all that they want, all at once, and exclusively for their own tribal loyalties.
However, it's better having what we have than nothing.
Rob C
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a ... game (war) of ... interests, not and of ... ideals.
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Probably most facts the guy used are correct, but the real question is: so what? It is just stating the obvious. The obvious being: that is how the world works - incentives and interests. It is a two-way street: those interests ("funders") are looking for candidates to represent them, not just the other way round. Those candidates who do not want to "sell" themselves to the big funders, can (and did, like Obama) ask for small donations from a larger number of funders.
In other words, nothing new here (nor exclusive to the U.S.), just another example of how Little Johnny (read: romantic lefties) imagines the world of grown-up politics should look like.
It's only ever a matter of degree, though, isn't it? Sure, self-interest is always present, there's no utopia, but that is also stating the obvious. But once every last politician is bought and paid for by every snake oil salesman so that the very idea of public interest or common good is farce, or even if people just think it and stop voting, say, then where are you? Is that a society worth caring about? Of course there's a difference between what is and what should be. Too much cynicism serves no purpose in the long run.
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It's only ever a matter of degree, though, isn't it? Sure, self-interest is always present, there's no utopia, but that is also stating the obvious. But once every last politician is bought and paid for by every snake oil salesman so that the very idea of public interest or common good is farce, or even if people just think it and stop voting, say, then where are you? Is that a society worth caring about? Of course there's a difference between what is and what should be. Too much cynicism serves no purpose in the long run.
Something one learns late in life...
Rob C
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Something one learns late in life...
Rob C
Which is a shame for those people. I have never been cynical - but I am realistic. Too many people either expect politicians to be purer than white, or condemn them all as charlatans. I have several thought on politicians, admittedly from a UK perspective. First, anyone seeking power should have their motives suspected. Secondly, most politicians at least start out with the best of intentions. Thirdly, they all tell lies when they need to. And lastly, I don't expect them to be infallible and superhuman. Never been disappointed yet.
Jim
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He is also outlining reasonable non partisan approaches to kiln the current vicious circle.
Great idea Bernard. Let's just roll these guys into the oven and start over.
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You see the humour we can raise on LuLa?
Trouble is, those guys have studied the ways of the Phoenix.
;-)
Rob C
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Great idea Bernard. Let's just roll these guys into the oven and start over.
The French did it in 1789... but they didn't have flat screen TVs, the full collection of Desperate House Wives in 3D and D800Es to lose...
Cheers,
Bernard
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The French did it in 1789... but they didn't have flat screen TVs, the full collection of Desperate House Wives in 3D and D800Es to lose...
That's right, and we're BUSY now! But so help us if they shut the internet off...
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The French did it in 1789... but they didn't have flat screen TVs, the full collection of Desperate House Wives in 3D and D800Es to lose...
Cheers,
Bernard
Yep, and hated the Brits ever since for not doing the same and thus owning a tourist attraction more powerful than the Eiffel Tower.
Regicide is ilke chopping off one's own head: the rest just flops about until it's all leaked away. Order and sequence are essential in anything but a circle (or sphere, if your imagination is up to the challenge - mine isn't, which is why I 'work' within two dimensions).
Rob C
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Regicide is ilke chopping off one's own head: the rest just flops about until it's all leaked away. Order and sequence are essential in anything but a circle (or sphere, if your imagination is up to the challenge - mine isn't, which is why I 'work' within two dimensions).
How about our friend Möbius?
Cheers,
Bernard