Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: HarperPhotos on April 28, 2013, 01:38:05 am

Title: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: HarperPhotos on April 28, 2013, 01:38:05 am
Dear Nikon,

If you are reading this here is my wish list for the new Nikon D4X camera.

56 to 60 megapixels
Global shutter
Nikon's patented ON/OFF optical low-pass filter (OLPF)
Built in WiFi.

Thank you

Simon

Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 28, 2013, 02:13:25 am
56 to 60 megapixels
Global shutter
Nikon's patented ON/OFF optical low-pass filter (OLPF)
Built in WiFi.

Dear Simon,

Not a problem.

- 1 and 4 are almost a given. They could opt for 15 bits DR at 36mp also, we would get the first real 16 bit camera,
- 2 would be unlikely for a still centric "landscape" camera.
- Considering that the D7100 doesn't an AA filter at all, I would consider 4 unlikely also. But I am convinced this is what they must have tried to do with the D800/D800E.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: bronica7 on April 28, 2013, 07:36:54 am
Global shutter would be outstanding as I need the same function like leaf shutter lenses for my DSLR Camera system requirements, for dance ,action and special style photography which you could only achieve with global shutter systems like in the old Nikon D40 camera. And 16 bit would be my second point for the wishlist, and a rotateable monitor for special angles like in the A99 Sony.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: Dustbak on April 28, 2013, 07:57:04 am
I would like to have a finder like the F5, not only as big but also removable so I can use things like a DW30 finder.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: Ellis Vener on April 29, 2013, 02:40:02 pm
30-36mp @ 10-12 fps

Better high ISO performance

retaining the 10 pin connection

built in Arca-Swiss compatible dove tail QR "L" bracket

larger view finder diopter adjustment range

15+1  per channel bit depth.

Thunderbolt port

DNG option.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: bill t. on April 29, 2013, 04:39:51 pm
Will settle for one...huge dynamic range or miniscule noise at ISO 3200.

36mp's is just fine.  Would be nice to have a kit lens that can live up to even 24mp.

How about a never-come-down-until-asked mirror lock up?

How about automatic focus bracketing?

Unreasonable requests...

A built rotating mass synchronized to the mirror and shutter to cancel all camera induced vibrations at any shutter speed.  Or a digital viewfinder so good the mirror concept goes in the trash.

An indicator that immediately flags issues in the just-created image file such as motion blur, potentially missed focus, significant clipping, cat pictures, images of piers thrusting out towards the horizon, etc.





Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: hasselbladfan on April 29, 2013, 05:35:29 pm
If this camera will be announced in Q3-Q4, I guess this wishlist comes a bit late.  ;D
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: Codger on April 29, 2013, 06:19:33 pm
Lots of good ideas proposed in this particular thread.  After musing about what a D4x might offer us, I've simplified my wish-list for this Nikon.  First, a sweeping correction of all the issues from the PAST few FX models, including consistent/reliable auto focus, better color in the viewfinder and rear LCD, and alignment.  I don't want 48 or 56 (or whatever) megapixels crammed into this little sensor.  (You want medium format, get medium format.)  Having 30 to 36 MPs would be fine, and would add sufficient resolution for serious landscape/still photographers while serving wildlife/sports shooters.  There isn't an abundance of current lenses that would deliver results for 48 mps.  Wait until the NEXT update in a couple of years before going overboard with a jillion tiny photosites and see how sensors and lenses evolve.  Nikkor or Zeiss (or Sigma) will have a better lens array by then.  Step up the bit depth, make a provision for GPS, and I'm content.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: bill t. on April 29, 2013, 06:55:24 pm
I want a camera that will shoot lots of files of the same scene, such as a night skyscape/landscape.  It will save all the separate files, but also keep updating a single file that is the average or some other function of all the separate exposures.  The updated file will be visible on the LCD by clicking the IR remote thingy.  Will let me know early on if it's worth it to keep adding more exposures.  I could go on.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 29, 2013, 08:23:02 pm
I don't want 48 or 56 (or whatever) megapixels crammed into this little sensor.  (You want medium format, get medium format.)  Having 30 to 36 MPs would be fine, and would add sufficient resolution for serious landscape/still photographers while serving wildlife/sports shooters.  There isn't an abundance of current lenses that would deliver results for 48 mps.  Wait until the NEXT update in a couple of years before going overboard with a jillion tiny photosites and see how sensors and lenses evolve.  

Well, the D5200/D7100 (2 APS cameras) have 2 stops more measured DR than the 5DIII (an FX camera) with a slightly higher resolution. Most Canon shooters seem to think that the 5DIII has enough DR for practical applications (or they are all lying to us which seems unlikely  ;)).

Assuming that Nikon is simply able to retain the same sensor characteristics when making it larger (which seems a very conservative view considering that the D4x would be coming 1.5 years later at 10+ times the cost), then you would have a 54mp camera with 2 stops more DR than the 5DIII.

I don't see any problem with that really.  :)

Lens wise, there are many options that are not really challenging the 36mp sensor of the D800: Nikon 24mm f1.4, 85mm f1.8 and f1.4, 45mm T/S, 85mm T/S, Nikon 70-200 f4, Nikon 70-200 f2.8, all the big guns even wide open, Sigma 35mm f1.4, Zeiss 25mm f2, Zeiss 50mm f2, Zeiss 100mm f2, Zeiss 135mm f2, Leica 180mm f2.8,...

And those are only the top performers I can think of now, many other lenses are performing very well in real world applications.

One thing that is not always well understood is that a higher resolution camera will still deliver a better image with an average lens than a lower megapixel camera.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: TMARK on April 30, 2013, 01:09:56 pm
F5/F4/F3hp viewfinder, along with high precision focusing screens.  The brightness, clarity and accuracy of those finders shames the D800.

I don't think there are really issues with AF that aren't QC related. 
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: Chairman Bill on April 30, 2013, 02:05:58 pm
I want an Ansel Adams program option, that scans the scene, alerts the photographer to a potential photo, then automatically frames, focuses & exposes the image, then tells the 'tog whether it's a keeper or not. Oh, and eleventy thousand million pixels. Or not.

A better system for manual focus than a dot & some arrows in the lower left hand side of the viewfinder.

Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: TMARK on April 30, 2013, 03:12:14 pm

A better system for manual focus than a dot & some arrows in the lower left hand side of the viewfinder.



Old style viewfinder with a split prism.  That would blow my mind.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: Chairman Bill on April 30, 2013, 05:50:18 pm
Old style viewfinder with a split prism.  That would blow my mind.

That would do me
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: rethmeier on April 30, 2013, 09:43:02 pm
And a re-designed  PCE 24, a new PCE 35  and the PCE 17.

A D4x with 36 MP  would do me.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: kers on April 30, 2013, 10:04:31 pm
the best optical view finder they can make

some features that come from their special V1 camera-
electronic- silent shutter ( 60 fps large buffer)
an (optional) very good EVF
the autofocus system on the sensor (no mistakes can be made)

Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: Rob C on May 01, 2013, 04:09:31 am
Old style viewfinder with a split prism.  That would blow my mind.


And with grid. That would be viewing heaven.

I still have an almost unused F3 and don't dare look through it anymore because I know the nervous reaction wouldn't do me any good. As I can't take its screens and stick them onto the digi bodies, what's the point of inflicting serious masochism?

Does anyone know of any reason why a split-image screen can't be employed on a digi camera? I didn't like the micro-prism surrounds some slit-image systems had, but a straight simple split was perfect: you could even split an eye with it (model's, not snapper's). What more can you ask in terms of getting sharp sharp?

Rob C
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: Petrus on May 01, 2013, 04:27:49 am
One thing that is not always well understood is that a higher resolution camera will still deliver a better image with an average lens than a lower megapixel camera.

This can be mathematically easily explained with a throughput formula, where "perfect" unit "quality coefficient" is 1 and anything less than perfect is something less. We simply multiply the coefficients of each unit affecting the throughput. So if we have two cameras with sensor "quality coefficients" of 0.9 and 0.7,  and one lens with "quality coefficient" of 0.8, we get the end results of 0.72 and 0.56 even with the same lens.
Title: sensor resolution improvement is "cheap" so aim to out-resolve lenses
Post by: BJL on May 01, 2013, 10:14:51 am
One thing that is not always well understood is that a higher resolution camera will still deliver a better image with an average lens than a lower megapixel camera.
Indeed: and another often ignored or disputed fact is that in practically relevant comparisons (images of the same apparent size), there is almost no disadvantage in visible noise or the handling of scenes of high subject brightness range (so-called DR) to having somewhat more, smaller photosites on a sensor of the same size. So since increasing sensor resolution is far easier and cheaper than increasing the resolution of all one's lenses, the most cost-effective route to improving overall resolution is to aim for sensors that match or exceed the best resolution that the lens system can deliver: the sharpest lens as its optimum aperture. Ideally, sensors should become "invisible" to image quality.

The main downside of very high pixel counts is lower frame rates, but that would only be relevant if this thread were about "D4H" wish-lists.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: SZRitter on May 01, 2013, 10:33:40 am
Mine (although I will be lucky to afford a D800, let alone a D4X...):

1. Uncompressed 4k video at 30fps (I can dream, right?)
2. Uncompressed 1080p120
3. That image building mode thing for long exposures in live view that the E-M5 has
4. 16-bit RAW
Title: Nikon D4X wish list: a "Live Bulb" mode as in E-M5?
Post by: BJL on May 01, 2013, 11:21:34 am
I want a camera that will shoot lots of files of the same scene, such as a night skyscape/landscape.  It will save all the separate files, but also keep updating a single file that is the average or some other function of all the separate exposures.  The updated file will be visible on the LCD by clicking the IR remote thingy.  Will let me know early on if it's worth it to keep adding more exposures.  I could go on.
That resembles the "Live Bulb" and "Live Time" options on the E-M5. In the "Bulb" and "Time" long exposure modes, there is the option of having the rear screen (or eye-level EVF) display successive updated versions of the image so far, at a selected interval (1/2s, 1s, 2s ... 60s). It beats guesswork with very long exposure night shots!

So want you want can be done, with the right sensor technology.


P. S. Also, another vote for a tiltable accessory EVF.


P. P. S. I just noticed that SZRitter mentioned this in the previous post!
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: HarperPhotos on May 12, 2013, 05:01:05 pm
Hello,

Personally a camera like the Nikon D4x main criteria is to take stunning still images. If you want high end video why not go for something like a Blackmagic camera.

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/nz/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: shadowblade on May 12, 2013, 06:15:03 pm
Just put a Canon EOS mount on it and I'll be happy.

Then I'd finally be able to move on to a 2013-standard landscape camera, instead of still being stuck back in 2008...
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: ddietiker on June 05, 2013, 12:37:20 pm
I would be very happy with 36 mpix and a 3-4 stop more dynamic range to replace my D3x for landscape shots.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: pluton on June 08, 2013, 12:33:54 am
At 36MP, I'm already oversampling for moderate size prints.  No need for more pixels. Unfortunately, the advance rumblings point to 50+MP. 
A high quality optical finder is mandatory.
A modular finder system would be fantastic, but they'd have to cram those circuit boards that sit in the prism housing somewhere, not to mention how to run all the trick layered transparent displays.
They could build a 4X or 6X flip-in magnifier into the finder, but that'd be too extremely professional, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: rogan on June 08, 2013, 01:11:55 am
Please no on 50+ mp. Will have to shoot at 1/2000 just to get a sharp frame. As well, not sure nikon can make a camera that af's that accurately to get 50+ sharp.
Would love the d800 chip at 7-8 fps and better af. Global shutter would be much more exciting to me.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 08, 2013, 05:32:56 am
Please no on 50+ mp. Will have to shoot at 1/2000 just to get a sharp frame. As well, not sure nikon can make a camera that af's that accurately to get 50+ sharp.

50 real isn't that much more than 36. More pixels never deliver less detail all other things being equal. I have personally never gotten as many tack sharp hand held images with any other camera compared to the D800. The secret? A mode and Auto ISO set to automatically work with a speed one stop faster than 1/focal length.

 AF is extremely reliable and accurate on my body, so the AF is a brilliant design. I believe that Nikon may have had a hard time manufacturing reliably all the D800 at its price point but I am not concerned at the expected price point of the D4x.

No reas˘ to think that

The only draw back is larger files and possibly slower shooting.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: BobDavid on June 08, 2013, 08:54:16 am
The 14-24mm Nkon zoom is a jewel--nothing like it as far as wide lenses for 35mm cameras. The MFT charts validate that claim. Pick one up and start shooting with one. You'll be blown away by the crisp colors, well-controlled linearity, and minimal CA. The latter two are completely corrected in ACR.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: D Fosse on June 08, 2013, 09:54:13 am
The secret? A mode and Auto ISO set to automatically work with a speed one stop faster than 1/focal length.

One stop faster is not nearly enough if you want to be safe.

Here's 85 mm on a D800, shot at 1/250 sec. For the first I held my breath and braced against a wall. For the second I was deliberately careless. Not waving the camera in the air, but something like a grab shot in a hurry. Both are 1:1 crops, 800 x 532 pixels.

Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 08, 2013, 08:21:52 pm
One stop faster is not nearly enough if you want to be safe.

Here's 85 mm on a D800, shot at 1/250 sec. For the first I held my breath and braced against a wall. For the second I was deliberately careless. Not waving the camera in the air, but something like a grab shot in a hurry. Both are 1:1 crops, 800 x 532 pixels.

I use the 85mm f1.4 a lot these days (amazing lens btw). The D800 rounds the shutter speed at 1/200 when using the settings described above.

I have less than 2% images where hand shake affects the sharpness in a visible way and the image remains totally usable even for those 2%.

I am a tripod guy so I would describe my hand shooting abilities as being below average.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: D Fosse on June 09, 2013, 03:08:37 am
Agreed. I wasn't really arguing, merely pointing out that with a 36 MP sensor and a good lens, the old 1/focal length guide isn't very useful any more. You need to be careful at virtually any shutter speed. The two examples above are really tiny pieces of the full frame, and with a 12 MP D700 I'm not sure they would have been distinguishable to any practical degree.

So the D800 is already very much a tripod/live view/mirror up/cable release piece of equipment, at least if you want to make full use of all the pixels. The D(X)-series, on the other hand, is targeted mainly at photojournalists. Built to survive an earthquake and extremely fast - those are the top priorities for a journalist. And that's also why the price tag is three times higher.

The point I'm trying to make is that a 50 MP sensor is of limited usefulness in the target market. Those who really need high resolution will probably be better served with a D800, they don't need high speed or military-grade build. I know I don't.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: HarperPhotos on June 09, 2013, 04:03:36 am
Hi D Fosse,

Have to disagree with your comment about the D(X)-series been the photojournalists camera. The D series is more fitting to the photojournalists and the DX is more suited to my needs as an advertising photographer. So for my type of work 50MP is perfectly suited to me.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 09, 2013, 05:49:23 am
The D(X)-series, on the other hand, is targeted mainly at photojournalists. Built to survive an earthquake and extremely fast - those are the top priorities for a journalist. And that's also why the price tag is three times higher.

This is true for the D3/D4, but the D3x was clearly targeting the landscape crowd.

Slow shooting, highest image quality with the reliability needed for the toughest endeavours.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Increased sensor resolution does not force higher shutter speeds
Post by: BJL on June 09, 2013, 03:04:39 pm
Please no on 50+ mp. Will have to shoot at 1/2000 just to get a sharp frame.
Increased sensor resolution can only increase image sharpness at the same shutter speed, never decrease it, in any sane comparison: viewing images of different pixel counts at equal size. If you suffer a compulsion to view high resolution images at 100% pixels on-screen, so viewing only a tiny part if the image at a time, then downsample before viewing.

Ditto for the myth that diffraction effects getting worse when a sensor or film of higher resolution is used.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: rogan on June 09, 2013, 07:31:04 pm
50 real isn't that much more than 36. More pixels never deliver less detail all other things being equal. I have personally never gotten as many tack sharp hand held images with any other camera compared to the D800. The secret? A mode and Auto ISO set to automatically work with a speed one stop faster than 1/focal length.

 AF is extremely reliable and accurate on my body, so the AF is a brilliant design. I believe that Nikon may have had a hard time manufacturing reliably all the D800 at its price point but I am not concerned at the expected price point of the D4x.

No reas˘ to think that

The only draw back is larger files and possibly slower shooting.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,
 You always say that but your an f16 tripod guy. Those of us that shoot moving subjects wide open will tell you the d800 is good but not close to great. There is a LOT of room for improvement. Hopefully a d4x will improve on that.
The firmware update was a huge improvement. No we just need 2-3 more massive improvements and we are good.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 09, 2013, 08:32:11 pm
You always say that but your an f16 tripod guy. Those of us that shoot moving subjects wide open will tell you the d800 is good but not close to great. There is a LOT of room for improvement. Hopefully a d4x will improve on that.
The firmware update was a huge improvement. No we just need 2-3 more massive improvements and we are good.

Well, my comments are of course based on those images that I shoot without tripods.

I have a little baby girl who moves a lot and have a high success rate of tack sharp images on the eyes shooting my 85mm f1.4 at f2.0 indoors.

I also do shoot quite a bit with my 300 f2.8 VR at f2.8 and have again a very high success rate here too (higher in fact).

I have noticed an important variation of success rate depending on the settings used though. My best results by far have been in 9 focus points mode. And yes, I did notice a further improvement with the latest firmware, but it was far from poor before that.

In my results, the D800's AF is superior to that of the D3 and D3x that I used previously.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: rogan on June 10, 2013, 03:58:15 pm
Like I said as well, it is better.......
As well, larger files will slow down tethering even more than it already is. I can't think of a reason I want more than 33mp. Not sure there is a single nikon lens that can resolve 33mp except in the very center anyway.

And you said 50+ isn't a big jump? It's bigger than 24 to 33 was and that showed off a huge focusing difference(what seams sharp at 24mp can be seriously out at 33). This is a mp race for advertising sake. Would rather have high quality 33mp than same at 50+. As well, would rather have a stop or two of more iso than more mp.(this is with the d4x) For the d800x, make it huge for dirt shooters.
Title: Re: Nikon D4X wish list
Post by: pookipichu on June 10, 2013, 08:29:10 pm
In order of importance:

1.  Better AF than the D800, more reliable in low light with the outer focus points, faster lock.

2.  Silent mode, better shutter damping.

3.  16 bit color

4.  Better circuitry, more DR.

5.  Better weather sealing