Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: rotipom on April 04, 2013, 12:52:17 pm
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Dear folks,
I just got some really distressing news. My Epson 4900 has a clogged VLM/LC channel and after various time attempts at cleaning/power cleaning and letting it sit overnight, it's not coming back to life. I called Epson and they told me I need to get a tech out for service. I have NO extended warranty :(
They are telling me it's $275 just to have a look at it for an hour onsite and then there's $1700 worth of replacement parts that might need to go in, $1300 of which is the print head. I just cannot understand how I would need to spend almost how much I paid for the printer less than 2 years after I bought it. A PRO printer. My 2400 I bought USED on craigslist is still purring and giving me NO trouble.
I am about to break down and have a cry. Of course all this is in the middle of a project dateline and I can't do anything without it.
Any suggestions about what I can do?
Thank you so much in advance...
Amy
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Dear folks,
I just got some really distressing news. My Epson 4900 has a clogged VLM/LC channel and after various time attempts at cleaning/power cleaning and letting it sit overnight, it's not coming back to life. I called Epson and they told me I need to get a tech out for service. I have NO extended warranty :(
They are telling me it's $275 just to have a look at it for an hour onsite and then there's $1700 worth of replacement parts that might need to go in, $1300 of which is the print head. I just cannot understand how I would need to spend almost how much I paid for the printer less than 2 years after I bought it. A PRO printer. My 2400 I bought USED on craigslist is still purring and giving me NO trouble.
I am about to break down and have a cry. Of course all this is in the middle of a project dateline and I can't do anything without it.
Any suggestions about what I can do?
Thank you so much in advance...
Amy
Amy...
By the time you add labor to install the head, it will be over $2,000...and no guarantee that it works.
First, depending on how close you are to two years and assuming you bought with a credit card that supplies extended warranty, you should initiate a claim.
Cleaning, even power, on the 4900 does not seem to suck enough ink to clean a bad clog. I, personally, have found that using the "initial charge" function in the service program will clear it....but it does use up a lot of ink. Where the cleaning can be done in pairs, the initial charge can only be done for the entire left or right bank of carts....and it pumps 25-30 times the amount of ink....which actually is good for the clogged nozzles, bad for the clean ones which just "waste" ink.
Service manual can be found here:
http://www.2manuals.com/product_info.php?products_id=1250
Service program:
http://www.2manuals.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=10&products_id=1365
No guaranties, but worth trying before throwing out and replacing. I had written mine off, so was willing to try anything....to get completed, I did have to get a few carts and waste cart as some were/got too low and the waste got full.
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I am sorry to say it but welcome to the club. I to had a clog that would not budge for quite some time. My resolve was to use windex under the head on a paper towel. I did this about three or four times. Unfortunately, it did create a situation where it pulled a lot of ink out of the head and I think created a situation where there was either air or the line had cavitated above the head. At this point I had nearly half of each head missing. What I did was to do a normal head cleaning everyday for about a month and every day I would gain back two or three dots. After several weeks of this I finally got back to running.
To do it again, I would use the windex under the head, but not leave it as long for each time.
Also, the times where a clog occurred were when the humidity dropped below 40% in the room. So now I keep a humidifier in the room as well as a gauge. When it drops below 40 I have to fire up the humidifier. I know, a big pain the .....
I am an amateur photographer and don't run a lot of prints. The threads on here suggest to run lots of prints. Myself, I try not to go more than two days without at least printing a test.
My 4900 does remind me of "The Little Shop of Horrors"
I hope this helps, best of luck to you.
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I would not spend the kind of money they are talking about on a two year old printer unless they guarantee their repair work for at least a year, which they likely will NOT. If push comes to shove buy a new printer and an extended service warranty.
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If you perform a power clean, followed by printing a page that contains a fair amount of color so every nozzle is needed to make the print, followed by a nozzle check, are the missing nozzles identical? While identical missing nozzles does not mean it is a head problem, a head problem will pretty much always show that symptom.
Normally when the head breaks down it is the LK/LLK nozzles that are the first to go (about 50% of the ink on every page is from those two colors so those nozzles get driven far more than any others in the machine), so the fact it is another color is somewhat encouraging. Before windex, the normal course of action for me is distilled water. Note that anything moist will suck ink through any nozzles that aren't clogged, and if your issue is air in the line and not clogged nozzles (most missing nozzles are not from clogs but from air) soaking will do nothing. I don't ever soak the head for more than 5 to 10 minutes ...I don't think longer really helps. I will do a head clean after soaking, then print a page with a lot of color so hopefully every nozzle gets used ( I think I posted a cleaning page I use on another thread a month or so ago), then a nozzle check. Often the head is worse after this process so it may take a couple of more cleans.
If the water doesn't get it, then windex may be OK, but I think windex can also kill a head. I would use it carefully and make sure there is no power to the printer.
Regarding the post about using init fill, I've never tried this but I have heard of it helping others. The basic idea is it is forcing so much ink through the printer the ink itself can help dissolve clogs and supposedly it uses more pressure than a cleaning.
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Hi Wayne, your advice about printing between cleanings is correct and something I have been advising forum members for years ever since an Epson technical support person advised me to adopt this practice. It is also possible that the OP's issue is trapped air, which can happen as a result of one power clean after another without printing in between. But this should be recoverable. If after testing the clean-print-clean-print routine several times, the head is still not producing a completely satisfactory nozzle check, it may well be advisable to replace the printer - I hope for the OP's sake this will not be necessary.
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Hi Amy,
I recently had the same problem with my 2 year old Epson 4900. I wasn't able to turn on my printer for 2 months. When I booted it up all the inks were clogged. I did several power flushing and such from the panel. I had the same response from Epson...
This is what worked. I went to inkjetmall and purchased empty cartidges to go with a PiezoFlush Cleaning Kits. The site has several videos on it on how to fill empty cartridges with the cleaning fluid. I ran my Epson printer with the flush and now it's printing beautifully.
Inkjetmall is run by Jon Cone. He is an expert on ink and printing. If you are nervous about this give them a phone call. They were very helpful.
Good luck and make some great prints.
regards,
Jeffery
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Following with interest, my 4900 reminds me who's in charge each time I leave the printer unused for more than say, one hour. Just kidding, but 1-2 days is pretty close to the truth. So when the last minute came to decide on the $500 two-year warranty extension I went for it, and plan the same on our 9900 - although $1200 is the cost for that warranty extension.
I learned something here from jsrforums about the initial charge concept. I hadn't thought of Jon Cone's flush system either. Good ideas and probably better than throwing the printer away. As others have said, the $2000 repair makes no sense, as I see it.
I'll tell you, our HP Z3200 NEVER clogged, and now that we are running both 4900 & 9900 machines I have mixed feelings about switching brands. Then there is the Canon option...
John Caldwell
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Before you throw the printer away you should definitely try putting the Cone Flush Fluid in one of their refillable ink cars for that printer. This stuff fixed a printer for me that nothing else would fix.
Then do one or two power cleanings which takes the flush fluid through the system and into the lines and head. Let that sit there for about 12-24 hours. They try to print a test pattern with all the colors in it. Do that several times. Then try the nozzle check. This may solve your problem. If it doesn't the head my indeed need replacing which is more than what the printer is worth unfortunately. This printer has a much worse track record for these kinds of terminal head failures than the 3880 unit.
john
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...........This printer has a much worse track record for these kinds of terminal head failures than the 3880 unit.
john
"Track record" - who knows - we don't have access to Epson's global maintenance data base. But my experience tells me the 3800 could sit for a year unused and still work properly; not so with a 4900. The heads can't be compared, however - different animals and along with that, different issues.
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FWIW, my 4900 used to need power cleans every few weeks, until I put a humidifier into the room to maintain relative humidity at 50%. Since then I have not had a single head clog, and it has been more than 12 months, sometimes going as long as a week between printing sessions.
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FWIW, my 4900 used to need power cleans every few weeks, until I put a humidifier into the room to maintain relative humidity at 50%. Since then I have not had a single head clog, and it has been more than 12 months, sometimes going as long as a week between printing sessions.
Tom, this is a critical point, as the two major causal factors of head clogs with this printer are inadequate use and inadequate humidity. My room is typically plus/minus 40% (i.e. still within Epson specs) and I find I need to print at least every three days to avoid clogs.
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FWIW, my 4900 used to need power cleans every few weeks, until I put a humidifier into the room to maintain relative humidity at 50%. Since then I have not had a single head clog, and it has been more than 12 months, sometimes going as long as a week between printing sessions.
Tom, In what proximity to the printer do you place the humidifier? By humidifier, I guess you're speaking about an active, rather than passive, unit.
If this issue of relative humidity is the potent point that it's discussed to be, what don't the printers have built-in humidifiers local to the head assembly? It would make much more engineering sense, in my mind, to put the moisture where it's needed rather than in the entire room around a printer. No? It is the head and, in specific, the piezo nozzles than require the moisture - correct?
Thanks, Tom.
John-
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Tom, In what proximity to the printer do you place the humidifier? By humidifier, I guess you're speaking about an active, rather than passive, unit.
If this issue of relative humidity is the potent point that it's discussed to be, what don't the printers have built-in humidifiers local to the head assembly? It would make much more engineering sense, in my mind, to put the moisture where it's needed rather than in the entire room around a printer. No? It is the head and, in specific, the piezo nozzles than require the moisture - correct?
Thanks, Tom.
John-
Captivating idea, but perhaps there are operationally significant design factors and implications?
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AMY....
My 4900 was just down for the count literally...
Flashing 4000 codes and 'print tubes near end of life warnings'...
Fact is it sat for 7 weeks unused and simply would not print - or clean
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works perfectly 30 hours later...
here is what i did...
uses very coarse not linty sams club commercial type paper towells...( the type that go into chrome wall dispensers) and ammonia... (non-sudsey)
fire up the 4900 and when the head starts to move - pull the power cord from the unit...
then open the top -
lay the paper towel - 2 layers is what i used - soaked, in ammonia on the bottom of the tray area - then pull the head over the paper towell - gently lifting the head if needed...
close lid - let sit for 8 hours minn
clean the mess up after moving head back - i passed head over dry paper to get blobs of ink off...
then do test print pattern...
i had to do this 3 times over 30 hours
1x general clean
1x left 2 nozzles
1x r 2 nozzels
no power clean...
back to 100%
used my eschenbach led magnifier to inspect each test head print until i was clear, that the heads were indeed clear...
you could also use plain old windex, ammonia based - not the new flavors of windex... original...
best of luck
:)
Phil
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Exactly, one clogs and the other doesn't. One has a good design and the other doesn't. And we don't need Epson's data base to figure that out.
"Track record" - who knows - we don't have access to Epson's global maintenance data base. But my experience tells me the 3800 could sit for a year unused and still work properly; not so with a 4900. The heads can't be compared, however - different animals and along with that, different issues.
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Exactly, one clogs and the other doesn't. One has a good design and the other doesn't. And we don't need Epson's data base to figure that out.
John, yes to an extent, but two considerations. (1) There is anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence. And (2) there can be different design purposes with different trade-offs. Epson has not been exactly forthcoming on the latter point, but bit by bit, even from them informally, evidence has developed that this is a significant factor.
A moment on factor (1), the anecdotal evidence so far is quite clear that the 3800/3880 design is very much less clog-prone than the 4900 design. But what really matters is the overall user experience on a large number of units, and only Epson has that information. It makes a difference to one's perception of reliability if the fatal clog rate, for sake of argument, were 2% or 20% - we don't know. As a consumer, I'd buy at 2% but not at 20%, because the risk differs hugely.
Turning to consideration (2), having produced such a successful design in the 3800/3880, why several years later produce a machine that arguably performs less well in this respect? They aren't dumb so there had to be a reason. As far as I can put it together, the reason is that the printhead is designed with twice as many nozzles per sq.in., (yet more dot placement accuracy), the lines are much longer because of the machine design to accommodate a roll holder and larger ink tanks - in other words - the 4900 is a higher-end production machine, and from what I've heard, incorporated these design features with the intent and presumption of the machine being used at high frequency. Any design has a set of a assumptions and trade-offs, and I think we now know what they are comparing the 4900 and 3800/3880.
The upshot is that people who will print infrequently, don't need a roll-holder, live in drier climates without humidifiers and don't need the latest and greatest colour gamut Epson offers should buy a 3880. People with the opposite conditions should buy a 4900. Assuming what I'm saying here is correct, I think it would have been in Epson's longer-term interest to have made all this very clear to the market from the get-go.
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If you're going to make a comparison based on those larger design parameters and decisions then you should really be comparing the 4900 to the 4880. And anecdotally from searching these forums and my and others experiences with the 4880, it seems the x900/xx90 have far more problems than their predecessors. The printer I use for larger pieces observes this also. That of his collection of 7880, 9880, 11880, and 9900 the 9900 consistently gives the most trouble/hassle.
Which seems to be contrary to Epson marketing claims that clogging is virtually eliminated on the x900's.
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If you're going to make a comparison based on those larger design parameters and decisions then you should really be comparing the 4900 to the 4880.
You can compare different things for different purposes. The discussion above your post was meant to discuss an observation of two 17 inch models of recent vintage, one of which appears to have much less clog issues than the other, so then the question becomes - why, and what design decisions were made for what purposes in each case. If you want to compare a 4900 to 4880, that's fine in its own right, but doesn't invalidate the other.
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Tom, In what proximity to the printer do you place the humidifier? By humidifier, I guess you're speaking about an active, rather than passive, unit.
John - the printer lives in the same room as my computers, which is 11'x13' (3.5x4 meters), so it is easy to keep the whole room at the proper humidity with a smallish, quiet humidifier. In fact, the humidifier sits about 6 feet from the printer. Yes, it is an active unit, but I made the selection for least fan noise.
Living in southern Quebec I find that I only need to run it in the winter. Lately, low humidity during the summer hasn't been a problem!
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First, where's some wood to knock on...
Both my 4900 and 9900 have been working beautifully. I've never had a serious head clog in my 4900 (of two years), but left alone over Christmas holidays, or something like that, I may have to run a power clean and a few pair cleanings to get back to work again - but it hasn't been anything over the top. The 9900 is only a few months old and I've had to do one power cleaning. The odd time I'll do a pair cleaning, but once or twice and I'm good to go.
The interesting thing is that my humidity over the past few months has been hovering just around 33% - but I also keep the studio fairly cool too (66-68F) so that may be a factor.
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Tom, In what proximity to the printer do you place the humidifier? By humidifier, I guess you're speaking about an active, rather than passive, unit.
If this issue of relative humidity is the potent point that it's discussed to be, what don't the printers have built-in humidifiers local to the head assembly? It would make much more engineering sense, in my mind, to put the moisture where it's needed rather than in the entire room around a printer. No? It is the head and, in specific, the piezo nozzles than require the moisture - correct?
Thanks, Tom.
John-
Humidity control "near" the head is rather impractical. There are many locations where these printers are sold that have no need for humidity control because they operate in a fairly humid environment. Controlling humidity for ANY inkjet printer will extend it's life. While Canon and HP printers very effectively hide their clogging problems they suffer just as well. After using both I can't say which is cheaper to operate, but I know I don't use much ink any more with my Epson printers once I regulated the humidity in the room. Certainly this would also mean a Canon printer in a similar environment would get much more life out of the head before it fails. So humidity is important.
Personally I decided to install a room humidifier that automatically keeps itself full. I purchased the XXL model with dial controls from Habitat Monitor (http://www.habitatmonitor.com/products-page/auto-fill-humidifiers-p/). They modify a standard humidifier with a float/fill system. (This wouldn't be difficult to do yourself if you are handy with stuff like this). The supply tube comes from an r/o water unit which extends the life of the wicks. A set of 4 wicks is about $20 from amazon, each wick lasts about 4 months with the r/o water. I also add a little bacteria treatment to the water every week or so.
It has three speed settings for the fan, I use the lowest so it isn't too loud. How much it runs depends on the current humidity. I have in floor heat so my furnace does not dry my air out too much in the winter, but the air conditioning in the summer does dry the air a little. But Utah is a pretty dry environment, so it always runs some. I have a humidity gauge on the opposite side of the room where the printers are and I have the humidifier set to keep that at 45%. The room itself is about 20 feet by 20 feet, but it is open into a hallway so there is no door, and the humidity can escape to the rest of the house. Despite this it can still keep the room regulated without running all of the time.
Works well, not much effort, and I don't spend much time or ink cleaning any longer. Last time I fired up my 4900 (after 4 weeks of non use) a lot of nozzles were missing, but I printed my cleaning page instead of doing a clean, and they all were back. Indicates that some "clogs" are just air getting pulled back in.
One additional item, I've heard maintaining humidity is also good for many of the papers used in these printers as well.
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Wow guys,
This has been incredible incredible support and feedback from y'all. I can't thank you enough for how helpful this is and how much I appreciate this! After thinking about whether I should attempt to do some cleaning myself (ammonia/windex, paper towels, initial charges, etc) I thought I'd give the Epson technicians a try since they quoted a $275 for the first hour and I was hoping maybe then they could at least do some cleaning/servicing for me that might not result in a head change.
Do you all think that's wise? Or do technicians get told to try to push for an expensive head change always? I have no way of knowing :(
The reason why I have held off on trying to attempt it yet myself is because I was thinking, until they saw it I didn't want to actually cause an expensive head damage myself until the official troubleshooting since I have absolutely NO experience with trying to do this.
But unfortunately, it seems that the winds are not blowing my way, and the local tech company that Epson has farmed this out to is SEVERELY overbooked with managers leaving left and right and technicians on vacation and it's been 3 days and NO WORD on when someone can even come in!!! Preposterous for this being a business machine and out of commission for that many days. It is my main printer and I am just unable to run any production.
A little note on my environment:
I haven't used it often this past few months because I lost my production assistant and I'm developing a different mode of my business. Production is anticipated to be back soon but now I have no printer.
I live in SoCal so yes it IS dry here but I wasn't aware of the humidity problem because my 2400 works just fine, with barely any cleaning needed even months sitting in neglect.
Possible Next Actions:
Should I wait for the Tech or try to get it running myself with all your helpful tips?
I'm SOOO frustrated with Epson especially since they can't even get me an on site technician, after years of being a loyal Epson user, and now I'm seriously considering switching brands altogether and never buying another Epson again! But what would that brand be? What's a great alternative?
And if I write this printer off and want to stay with Epson, do I consider the 3880 or 4800? I don't mind downgrading because it's starting to look like I won't be using the 4000 series enough and I don't want this to happen again. Is the 3880 reliable enough to buy used or do I buy refurb? So many questions and so not what I need right now :(
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I never say dude...but dude, the 3880 is a no-brainer. A printer that just works, year after year with no clogging and waisted ink for cleaning is an upgrade, not a downgrade.
A refurb from Epson costs more than a new one at B&H - $879 w/free shipping. That's only about $400 more than the ink that come with it. A used one will be priced based on how much fresh ink it has onboard, but why not get a new one with a warranty? Print quality is fantastic and I haven't had a clog or a needed cleaning in 3 years. The 3880 is a bargain, and I'm seriously considering buying another one for mk ink use only.
Sal
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Sal, oh thank you for this! This is great to know about the 3880. If I cannot revive my 4900 I will be getting the 3880, NEW.
Phil/Orchidblooms:
Thank you SO much for your tip! An update on my case. I got off the phone with the Epson local technician (finally!) and fortunately he's a really nice guy and he told me straight off it's possibly 1 of 2 things depending on whether my printer has been sitting around for a few weeks or not. Since it HAS not been printing for awhile, it's most likely a case of printhead change :(
He told me this on the phone so I don't have to pay $275 for him to come out and say the same thing.
He recommended I try Phil/Orchidblooms' method BUT with Simple Green instead of Ammonia or Windex because it's his secret weapon of dissolving ink WITHOUT damaging the printhead.
I'm going to pick up a bottle and try it out tonight.
Oh and he also said, to turn the printer on (with auto nozzle check) daily to prevent a clogging. He says the x900 series has had serious clogging problems because they are designed for HD and the nozzles are really tiny, and prone to clogging that the other series doesn't. Interesting to know.
I just wished the 4900 had come with a "Turn your printer on/nozzle check or print everyday to prevent head damage" instead of " we have solved ALL head clogging problems of previous models" which is a bunch of expensive baloney :(
Will update y'all on what happens next....
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Oh and he also said, to turn the printer on (with auto nozzle check) daily to prevent a clogging. He says the x900 series has had serious clogging problems because they are designed for HD and the nozzles are really tiny, and prone to clogging that the other series doesn't. Interesting to know.
What is "HD"?
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how would simply turning the printer on daily prevent a possible clogging issue?
my final soaking - i did use windex... went to walgreens and got 'regular'.... ( my local mom-n-pops are gone... )
my 4900 would not do squatt when i turned it on.. before my soakings ...
printing many BW's last few days - all look great - starting colors today
i will keep plain old copy pager in this 4900 henceforth and run a nozzle check every few days..
P.
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What you are suggesting will most likely not work. You need to make several real prints of photographs at least every few days.
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Last time I fired up my 4900 (after 4 weeks of non use) a lot of nozzles were missing, but I printed my cleaning page instead of doing a clean, and they all were back. Indicates that some "clogs" are just air getting pulled back in.
Wayne, I just returned after an absence of about three weeks. All the nozzles in my 4900 were missing. I printed your cleaning page, which came out feint and it did absolutely nothing to improve the nozzle check. I then did a regular cleaning of all the nozzles and the nozzle check came back to normal. I suppose there is no one solution; as usual for so many things, "it depends".............
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[...] but I printed my cleaning page instead of doing a clean, and they all were back. Indicates that some "clogs" are just air getting pulled back in.
Wayne, big thanks, BTW, for posting that cleaning page jpg! When I'm printing nothing but B&W I add your page to the queue just to keep all the colours exercised. Seems to help...
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Where did Wayne post the cleaning page?
Jim
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Where did Wayne post the cleaning page?
Jim
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=75383.msg601885#msg601885
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Are there any engineers out there who can explain why designing a printer that is resistant to clogging is technologically infeasible? The Epson 4900 has been on my shopping list for some time now. What's holding me back is reading so many horror stories about this printer. Most reviews on Amazon.com are scathing.
http://www.amazon.com/Epson-Stylus-4900-Inkjet-Printer/product-reviews/B004FT0UN4/ref=cm_cr_pr_top_recent?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
I'm going to wait for the new and improved version of the 4900 to come out before committing (if only my 3800 hangs on to dear life). I guess clog-free printing IS rocket science, after all.
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Are there any engineers out there who can explain why designing a printer that is resistant to clogging is technologically infeasible?
Well, they made it feasible with the 3880. Mine never clogs (3 years), and that's with intermittent use. It would seem that the technology in newer Epson print heads is not so compatible with current pigment ink formulations. Time to stock up on 3880s before they go away. :)
Sal
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Humongous and entertaining thread about 7900 ( but applicable potentially to all Epson x900 printers ) here.
Answers your questions comprehensively. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=61585.0