Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Quintin Lake on March 26, 2013, 09:35:22 pm

Title: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Quintin Lake on March 26, 2013, 09:35:22 pm
I've got a long lens conundrum and wondered if anyone might be able to help.
I'm getting unacceptably soft results for 400mm compressed landscapes with  Canon 100-400L @ 400mm with 5DII.
But only for longer exposure shots 1-4 second range. Here is an example of the kind of shot I'm taking like this, though its not magnified enough to show the softness:
http://quintinlake.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Western-Desert-Journey-Egypt/G0000kFUwXry.h20/I0000Tvj31swO1LQ/C0000JnIJLx1O284

To try to rectify the problem I bought a Canon 400mm f5.6 prime and while its a better optically, especially at the corners  my results are still too soft for 1-4 second exposures (again fine for faster shutter speeds).

Therefore I'm guessing my series 2 gitzo ( GT2541 with RRS BH-40) isn't sturdy enough or perhaps there are are other long lens techniques I'm getting wrong???
As i'm not a wildlife shooter I'm not very familiar with long lens techniques so when i use my 400mm I feel like i'm starting again which is most frustrating. If you have any technique or gear suggestions i'd be most grateful!

These are the technique and gear I've using for my 400mm shots:

Checked lens foot tight
Checked all ball head knobs tight
Checked all tripod adjustments tight
Gitzo GT2541 with RRS BH-40
RRS plate to lens
Using mirror lockup
Using cable release
100 ISO for max detail in landscapes
f8-14
Canon 5DII
Taking multiple frames with a few seconds between
Hanging bag from centre hook
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: tsjanik on March 26, 2013, 10:19:22 pm
Quintin:

My 2 cents:  if you are having problems at 4 seconds, it seems unlikely to a camera effect, i.e., shutter shake.  Is it windy when you have the problems?  If so, you need a sheltered area, heavy tripod and anything else to stop movement.  I have found it impossible to stabilize long lenses in strong winds at long exposure times, so I hope someone else has a suggestion.  
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Shakyphoto (Slim) on March 26, 2013, 11:15:14 pm
It's funny that I just saw this post as I just tried to do the same thing tonight.  Any feedback here would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 26, 2013, 11:54:27 pm
Hi,

There may be a few reasons.

Wind can definitively be a problem. You can activate live view on your Canon and check the image at maximum magnification. If it moves around it really indicates that you would have problems. When shooting tripod I always use live view at maximum magnification for focusing and that works as a reminder on stability.

Image stabilisation may also cause some unsharpness. Stopping down causes diffraction, but with f/11 you should be OK. Checking focus may be a good idea. Some haziness may come from air vibration.

Here are some long lens shots:

Bird, low ISO, 70-400 zoom at 400 mm APS-C, 24MP
http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/Stuff/27603520_zJWRhh#!i=2427796438&k=srL5xHn&lb=1&s=O

Osprey, 560 mm on APS-C, 24 MP, windy conditions:
http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/Stuff/27603520_zJWRhh#!i=2427797196&k=PnT5Qrh&lb=1&s=O

Bison, 400 mm on full frame 135, handheld:
http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/Stuff/27603520_zJWRhh#!i=2427798056&k=3KVn4CH&lb=1&s=O

Mule deer, 400 mm APS-C 24 MP, tripod
http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/Stuff/27603520_zJWRhh#!i=2427796974&k=HhgD3sf&lb=1&s=O

Moose, 400 mm, APS-C 24MP, tripod
http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/Stuff/27603520_zJWRhh#!i=2427797772&k=qKHXKSD&lb=1&s=O

I'm not exactly saying those are all sharp, but I guess they are pretty typical of what I achieve.

Best regards
Erik


I've got a long lens conundrum and wondered if anyone might be able to help.
I'm getting unacceptably soft results for 400mm compressed landscapes with  Canon 100-400L @ 400mm with 5DII.
But only for longer exposure shots 1-4 second range. Here is an example of the kind of shot I'm taking like this, though its not magnified enough to show the softness:
http://quintinlake.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Western-Desert-Journey-Egypt/G0000kFUwXry.h20/I0000Tvj31swO1LQ/C0000JnIJLx1O284

To try to rectify the problem I bought a Canon 400mm f5.6 prime and while its a better optically, especially at the corners  my results are still too soft for 1-4 second exposures (again fine for faster shutter speeds).

Therefore I'm guessing my series 2 gitzo ( GT2541 with RRS BH-40) isn't sturdy enough or perhaps there are are other long lens techniques I'm getting wrong???
As i'm not a wildlife shooter I'm not very familiar with long lens techniques so when i use my 400mm I feel like i'm starting again which is most frustrating. If you have any technique or gear suggestions i'd be most grateful!

These are the technique and gear I've using for my 400mm shots:

Checked lens foot tight
Checked all ball head knobs tight
Checked all tripod adjustments tight
Gitzo GT2541 with RRS BH-40
RRS plate to lens
Using mirror lockup
Using cable release
100 ISO for max detail in landscapes
f8-14
Canon 5DII
Taking multiple frames with a few seconds between
Hanging bag from centre hook
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 27, 2013, 12:01:22 am
You may want to invest in Lloyd chambers "getting sharp images" articles.

My guess would be a combination of shutter movement and poorly designed tripod foot.

You could also try to lay a bag partially filled with sand on top of the camera and see if it helps.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Robert DeCandido PhD on March 27, 2013, 01:21:51 am
Heat Waves?

I have a heat wave problem in southern Thailand in the middle of the day when I try and shoot migrating birds (raptors) - from about 11am-3pm I lose many photos to heat waves...one shot will be focused and the next not...even though I am tracking the bird and shooting rapid fire...

On the other hand, your images look like they are from late in the day...are all slightly out of focus or do you get a few that are sharp?

Does it make a difference with IS on vs. IS off?
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: rpsphoto on March 27, 2013, 01:28:08 am
If you are using auto-focus you may want to try manual focusing using the "Live View" function (I am not familiar with Canon DSLRs so excuse me if your camera does not support this function).

Best regards,

Bob
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: capital on March 27, 2013, 01:47:45 am
I looked at your example photo, unfortunately without an example at 100% view it makes diagnosing very hard.

The BH40 ball head from RRS might be subject to creep, and may be compounded by excessive tightening. Have you tried screwing the lens collar of the 400mm directly to the tripod base? Or can you try an alternate support?

Do you get sharp 4 second exposures if you are in live view and trigger the 10 second timer?

Are you attempting to shoot through a large distance of air? The refractive index of air, especially when the air is being heated will cause large decreases in resolution, if you take a series of photos in a row you see the fluctuations in image quality as the air shimmers.

And like others have said, you must do these tests in the absence of a breeze/wind which will work against you in determining the cause, perhaps though, wind is the cause.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 27, 2013, 01:51:48 am
There is a program called PhotAcute that can extract a high resolution image by combining several less sharp images. It may be useful to handle heat waves.

Best regards
Erik

Heat Waves?

I have a heat wave problem in southern Thailand in the middle of the day when I try and shoot migrating birds (raptors) - from about 11am-3pm I lose many photos to heat waves...one shot will be focused and the next not...even though I am tracking the bird and shooting rapid fire...

On the other hand, your images look like they are from late in the day...are all slightly out of focus or do you get a few that are sharp?

Does it make a difference with IS on vs. IS off?
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: David Sutton on March 27, 2013, 02:46:08 am
The 400mm f 5.6 can be difficult. It acts like a tuning fork if there is any wind. The best solution I have found for slow shutter speeds is a 2kg beanbag on top of the lens. I use one whenever I can for any shutter speed below about a 400th/sec. Secondly I use a bungy chord looped around the tripod hook and my foot. For this lens I find hanging a bag from the centre hook can make matters worse if there is wind.
Finally I'd try live view and compare it to the autofocus.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Petrus on March 27, 2013, 04:11:14 am
Long tripod plate (on a video head) with a cradle for the front part of the lens helps also, the lens foot can be wobbly. I made a cradle from a block of nylon, height adjusted so that it pushes the front part of the lens slightly up when the screw on the foot is tightened. It is still possible to rotate the lens as nylon is quite slippery.

This still leaves the problem of tripod head not being heavy and sturdy enough. The ultimate solution is of course two tripods, often nothing else works.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Tony Jay on March 27, 2013, 05:00:00 am
The 400mm f 5.6 can be difficult. It acts like a tuning fork if there is any wind. The best solution I have found for slow shutter speeds is a 2kg beanbag on top of the lens. I use one whenever I can for any shutter speed below about a 400th/sec. Secondly I use a bungy chord looped around the tripod hook and my foot. For this lens I find hanging a bag from the centre hook can make matters worse if there is wind.Finally I'd try live view and compare it to the autofocus.

One way of getting around the dangling-bag-in-the-wind problem is to not let it dangle.
I have a heavy canvas bag that I take with me when shooting outdoors.
On location I fill it with rocks - up to 50 kg - and attach it the tripod hook, but, with just enough of the weighted bag touching the ground to prevent any movement.
With such a big lens though I would employ all and any means to reduce movement that have been suggested.
Of course, depending on how strong the wind is, even these measures may not be enough.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 27, 2013, 06:06:15 am
Btw, I also use this:

http://reallyrightstuff.com/Items.aspx?code=LongLensPkgs&key=cat

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Tony Jay on March 27, 2013, 06:34:36 am
Interesting Bernard.

From the picture on the RRS website it seems as if there is just a single head and tripod to which the lens-support package attaches.
Is this correct?

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: graeme on March 27, 2013, 06:54:08 am
As Erik says, using live view at 100% before pressing the shutter release can be helpful for checking  how steady your camera is.

Graeme
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: francois on March 27, 2013, 06:58:28 am
Using two tripods can really help sharpness (as LiveView, cable release, mirror lockup). I also turn the IS system OFF. But I have yet to find something for heat waves. I've always found that producing sharp images can be a challenge with my Canon 100-400 lens and it is a problem for stitched images as one or two unsharp photos completely ruin the final image.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Petrus on March 27, 2013, 07:24:12 am
But I have yet to find something for heat waves.

But there is! Sky telescopes use a system where a laser beam is shot up along the line of sight and the atmospheric interference is measured. This is then used to correct the signal captured by the optical system. Somebody just needs to sell this system to landscape photographers working in the tropics.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 27, 2013, 07:29:14 am
Interesting Bernard.

From the picture on the RRS website it seems as if there is just a single head and tripod to which the lens-support package attaches.
Is this correct?


Yep.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: francois on March 27, 2013, 07:38:05 am
But there is! Sky telescopes use a system where a laser beam is shot up along the line of sight and the atmospheric interference is measured. This is then used to correct the signal captured by the optical system. Somebody just needs to sell this system to landscape photographers working in the tropics.

I'll be waiting in line when such a system is available…
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: tsjanik on March 27, 2013, 08:09:31 am
Btw, I also use this:

http://reallyrightstuff.com/Items.aspx?code=LongLensPkgs&key=cat

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard:
I use a similar system, but have extended it to support the body itself, by adding a Sunwayfoto long lens support.  This is particularly effective at preventing vibrations from the shutter.  Even this system benefits from a Manfrotto long lens support at slow shutter speeds (attaches to tripod leg and the portrait camera plate on the side of the body), but makes it much harder to adjust.  All of this is still ineffective against strong winds.  Shown is a heavy crop of the ice along Lake Erie shore (200mm); I tried using the 600mm but was unable to get a sharp image in the 20-30 mph winds.  Ironically after shooting I saw this post.

Tom

Sunwayfoto (very well made)

http://www.amazon.com/SUNWAYFOTO-Telephoto-Support-TLS-01-Compatible/dp/B004XU5XTQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1364385010&sr=8-2&keywords=sunwayfoto+long+lens
Sunwayfoto
 (http://www.amazon.com/SUNWAYFOTO-Telephoto-Support-TLS-01-Compatible/dp/B004XU5XTQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1364385010&sr=8-2&keywords=sunwayfoto+long+lens
Sunwayfoto)

Manfrotto long lens support:


Manfrotto]http://www.amazon.com/Manfrotto-359-Long-Lens-Support/dp/B0019MPLHK/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1364385096&sr=1-1&keywords=manfrotto+long+lens+support]
Manfrotto
 (http://www.amazon.com/Manfrotto-359-Long-Lens-Support/dp/B0019MPLHK/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1364385096&sr=1-1&keywords=manfrotto+long+lens+support)

http://(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8111/8535691606_1284dda3ab_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/8535691606/)
_IGP1179 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/8535691606/) by tsjanik47 (http://www.flickr.com/people/21294128@N08/), on Flickr


http://(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8390/8593194355_fcdde85901_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/8593194355/)
_IGP0024 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21294128@N08/8593194355/) by tsjanik47 (http://www.flickr.com/people/21294128@N08/), on Flickr

Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: shadowblade on March 27, 2013, 08:48:43 am
Looking at your gear list, it's unlikely to be the lens or the support.

Given that you're photographing at what appears to be mid-afternoon in Egypt's Western Desert, heat-related interference is the main suspect - you may have better luck early in the morning, before the ground and air heat up. When I was recently photographing volcanoes in Ethiopia, I couldn't get a remotely useable shot of the glowing lava even at 200mm and 1/2000fps, due to heat-related interference...

The other possible cause is depth of field - is it sharp anywhere in the photo, or is it blurry throughout?
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Ellis Vener on March 27, 2013, 10:20:14 am
Along with a heavier duty tripod and head under the lens, mirror lockup and a cable or other remote release (i like the CamRanger so I can control the camera without touching it),  either use a second  tripod to support the camera or an arm attached to one of your tripod legs that comes up and supports the camera body.  A Manfrotto Super Clamp and Magic arm works . Also a small sandbag draped over the body of the lens helps as well.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: David Sutton on March 27, 2013, 03:19:55 pm
One way of getting around the dangling-bag-in-the-wind problem is to not let it dangle.
I have a heavy canvas bag that I take with me when shooting outdoors.
On location I fill it with rocks - up to 50 kg - and attach it the tripod hook, but, with just enough of the weighted bag touching the ground to prevent any movement.
With such a big lens though I would employ all and any means to reduce movement that have been suggested.
Of course, depending on how strong the wind is, even these measures may not be enough.

Tony Jay
Yes Tony, that works fine. I have one of those as well and it attaches to the tripod legs but alas I lack the patience and the back muscles to use it.  :)
Thus the bungee cord.

Edit: Add to that a desire to leave the environment as I found it. Seriously, rocks and stones are an important habitat for many creatures. If I want to show show the beauty of a landscape it is hypocritical of me to then despoil it, even in a small way.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Robert DeCandido PhD on March 27, 2013, 05:07:46 pm
Oh please...you got on an airplane to get to your location - that doesn't affect the environment? You probably rented a car or otherwise traveled in a vehicle that was not a public bus...You stayed in a hotel etc etc.

How much of your profits do you send back to the local community where you photograph or the scientists that study the critters you speak of wanting to protect?

Sorry, I don't like sacrosanct...whatecer we do has an effect. Moving a rock is like about the most minimal thing you can do...even in the desert.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: David Sutton on March 27, 2013, 05:47:14 pm
Oh please...you got on an airplane to get to your location - that doesn't affect the environment? You probably rented a car or otherwise traveled in a vehicle that was not a public bus...You stayed in a hotel etc etc.

How much of your profits do you send back to the local community where you photograph or the scientists that study the critters you speak of wanting to protect?

Sorry, I don't like sacrosanct...whatecer we do has an effect. Moving a rock is like about the most minimal thing you can do...even in the desert.
Complete codswallop.
First of all I think you mean sanctimonious.
Sacrosanct means sacred.
Secondly one environmentally questionable action does not justify another. YMMV. I am not telling you how to live.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Tony Jay on March 27, 2013, 06:48:16 pm
I certainly agree with the 'tread lightly' principle but the only way to leave no tread is not to be there at all.
We are not apart from the environment but part of it like any living entity - and they alter their environment all the time.
Moving some loose scree is not an issue - especially once one sees the carnage wrought by a herd of stampeding African buffalo.
The key concept is sustainability - if the effect you cause does not cause long-lasting issues there shouldn't be a problem.

I do sympathize with your back issue though - I wouldn't wish my current back problems on my worst enemy.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 27, 2013, 08:44:39 pm
I certainly agree with the 'tread lightly' principle but the only way to leave no tread is not to be there at all.
We are not apart from the environment but part of it like any living entity - and they alter their environment all the time.
Moving some loose scree is not an issue - especially once one sees the carnage wrought by a herd of stampeding African buffalo.
The key concept is sustainability - if the effect you cause does not cause long-lasting issues there shouldn't be a problem.

Indeed.

One SUV driving for one hour where it shouldn't probably has 10 times more impact than all LL photographers would have if we were all to put scree in bags to stabilize our shooting.

I agree that we need to focus on our own actions and that each of us has the power to influence, but I prefer to focus on things with a reasonnably measurable impact.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: David Sutton on March 27, 2013, 10:05:41 pm
I certainly agree with the 'tread lightly' principle but the only way to leave no tread is not to be there at all.
We are not apart from the environment but part of it like any living entity - and they alter their environment all the time.
Moving some loose scree is not an issue - especially once one sees the carnage wrought by a herd of stampeding African buffalo.
The key concept is sustainability - if the effect you cause does not cause long-lasting issues there shouldn't be a problem.

I do sympathize with your back issue though - I wouldn't wish my current back problems on my worst enemy.

Tony Jay

Yes, clearly moving some stones is not in the same league as driving over nesting birds. But I find as I get older my eyes have become more sensitive to environmental disturbances. Whether it is cigarette butts or disturbed ground. As someone who is unusually clumsy in the natural environment (buffalo herds are nothing to what can happen when I'm holding an extended tripod) I have to make an extra effort. My rule of thumb is to try to make sure there is no remaining evidence of my presence after a week.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: ripgriffith on March 28, 2013, 05:49:17 am
Edit: Add to that a desire to leave the environment as I found it. Seriously, rocks and stones are an important habitat for many creatures. If I want to show show the beauty of a landscape it is hypocritical of me to then despoil it, even in a small way.
Then you should just stay home.  Your tripod, to say nothing of your boots, creates scuffs and depressions in the landscape that weren't there before you came, and probably caused the demise of countless mites who live in the soil you just desecrated.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: David Sutton on March 28, 2013, 06:41:48 am
An otiose comment. To misquote E. C. Mckenzie, for free advice it's overpriced.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Tony Jay on March 28, 2013, 07:04:06 am
I must admit that I didn't pick up on your post so that you could be insulted David.
It was an interesting discussion point and worth debating.
I can't throw any stones though since occasionally I am not as polite as I should be either.
I certainly got your point and I think you got mine.

Look forward to chatting.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: tsjanik on March 28, 2013, 12:09:46 pm
...............I can't throw any stones though .................

Neither can David  :D; thought I'd lighten the thread. 
I've seen threads go off on tangents, but this one might take top prize.

Tom
Title: Leave-no-trace solution - water bottles or gear bag as tripod ballast
Post by: NancyP on March 28, 2013, 04:33:54 pm
Say you carry 2 L water (and in the desert, way more than 2 L). Hang those bottles off your tripod hook.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: David Sutton on March 28, 2013, 05:13:07 pm
I must admit that I didn't pick up on your post so that you could be insulted David.
It was an interesting discussion point and worth debating.
I can't throw any stones though since occasionally I am not as polite as I should be either.
I certainly got your point and I think you got mine.

Look forward to chatting.

Tony Jay
Hello Tony.
I was referring to the post immediately above my comment. My apologies, I should have put it in quotes. I thought your reply a useful contribution to the question of the impact we make on the environment  we love. You are right, it is a matter worth chatting about.
I am certainly not insulted by any comments here, but rather woke woke up in the mood for a dust-up, and got one, however small.
I hope your back gets better.
David
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Tony Jay on March 28, 2013, 07:24:32 pm
Yes I had figured that but I felt bad that our exchange had given room for that rather sarcastic remark that did not contribute at all.
I understand and respect your position on the environment since these issues are close to my heart too.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Quintin Lake on March 28, 2013, 09:20:55 pm
Many thanks for all the helpful and knowledgeable answers. I'm reassured by the responses that this is indeed a tricky technique and i'm not just being a muppet! I also asked this question over at DPreview so what follows is a compilation of the answers in both forums that I hope is useful for others struggling with the same technique,

For the sake of completeness my sample pic was after sunset hence why 4 seconds and heat not an issue, While the suggestions regarding heat haze and soft ground are good i know thats not the issue for me as I've had soft images on firm ground and cold climates at 400 mm for long exposure - its been an issue that I've ben having a couple of years. Wind, however is an issue many times where i'm working

Recap of my Original Technique

-Checked lens foot tight
-Checked all ball head knobs tight
-Checked all tripod adjustments tight
-Gitzo GT2541 with RRS BH-40
-RRS plate to lens
-Using mirror lockup
-Using cable release
-100 ISO for max detail in landscapes
-f8-14
-Canon 5DII
-Taking multiple frames with a few seconds between
-Hanging bag from centre hook

Good suggestions that I was doing:

-Turn off IS when using tripod
-don't extend center column
-don't extend legs to maximum
-Apertures greater than f/10 could cause diffraction blur

New techniques I will now try:

-Mike K's tip: Use Silent Shooting Mode 1 or 2 & live view rather than mirror lock up to reduce vibration further
-Use live view at 10x zoom to identify how steady the shot is
-Use 10 second delay between shots to fully dampen exposure
-Remove lens hood to minimise area for wind to catch
-Garry Lee's tip. Set camera on bulb, cover front of lens with black card or cap, remove to expose, count to expose manually
-Improvise wind break by body position
-Tony Jay's tip: arrange for weight bag hanging from tripod hook to touch the ground so not to swing.

Software technique if the above doesn't work
NancyP's tip: run a series of images through PS (focus stack option) to average blur. or use PhotAcute

Gear suggestions if the above don't work
(I'm always trekking and a long way from a vehicle so i'm loathed to add more weight but i'll add them as they may help others)
-David Sutton's tip: 2KG bean bag on top of lens
-Long lens plate to which both lens foot and camera are both attached
-use Gitzo series 3
-use BH 55 head
-Support lens with a second tripod

Thanks again for the answers to this complex issue!
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: stever on March 28, 2013, 11:14:17 pm
pretty good list of information, particularly liveview.  I would add that in my experience the BH40 is marginal for the camera/lens combination (and i don't really like ballheads for landscapes as well) i think it's important to make sure the camera/lens combination is balanced on the head (whatever kind) and this may require a longer arca-swiss plate on the lens foot.  the 400 f5.6 is really not that big and shouldn't require an extra support and it's not really big enough to use a second tripod.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Petrus on March 29, 2013, 02:29:59 am
How would using the live view help? There is more shutter movement as it must first close, then open.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 29, 2013, 03:31:26 am
Hi,

There are different modes of live view, but what is most helpful is check lens vibration before exposure. If the pixels move you will know that there will be problems.

Best regards
Erik

How would using the live view help? There is more shutter movement as it must first close, then open.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on March 29, 2013, 06:38:53 am
Neither the tripod or the head were designed for that kind of focal length. I have a 2542 and the BH-40 and would not begin to use them for lenses over 300mm and their manufacturers do not recommend over 200mm. Add long exposures to that and you're just asking for trouble I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Ellis Vener on March 29, 2013, 09:29:01 am
"the 400 f5.6 is really not that big and shouldn't require an extra support and it's not really big enough to use a second tripod."

I agree my recommendation of using a second tripod is overkill for this lens but the idea of supporting the camera body as well as the lens isn't,  especially for long exposures, even with a lighter weight tripod.

This Manfrotto item http://www.manfrotto.com/long-lens-support was recommended in http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/359.shtml

Before I even knew Luminous-landscape existed, maybe even before it existed, I'd used one with a Nikon F5 and 600mm f/4 AI-S  combination, I had just forgotten what the catalog number was.  For additional stability a small sandbag over where the lens connects to the tripod head  remains a good idea. It doesn't have to be that heavy all it's doing is dampening vibration.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: stever on March 29, 2013, 12:40:05 pm
liveview mode 1 is equivalent to mirror lockup but more convenient - i think mode 2 may have even less vibration than mirror lockup but I've never seen conclusive examples.  using 10x liveview to manual focus will be more consistent and accurate than autofocus
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Petrus on March 31, 2013, 01:34:45 pm
"the 400 f5.6 is really not that big and shouldn't require an extra support and it's not really big enough to use a second tripod."

I agree my recommendation of using a second tripod is overkill for this lens

If everything else (reasonable) fails, but adding second tripod helps, it is not an overkill, is it?

The weak spot in the normal tripod assembly is the ballhead with sometimes quite a long stem. Using a low video head might be better, and adding another tripod for the front part of the lens (other one on the camera body, not lens foot) is the most solid solution, even if clumsy one.
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: muntanela on March 31, 2013, 07:28:11 pm
Gitzo series 2 is recommended for "DSLRs with 200mm lenses, up to a 300mm maximum" .
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Rand47 on April 05, 2013, 09:27:37 pm
Rather than sandbag on the lens, try a slab of medical gel pad.
There's always some air moving, often enough to move long lenses. I use a large "golf umbrella" to put the entire tripod head / camera-lens & hood in a large parabolic wind shadow & use wireless remote to trip MLU & then shutter after about 5 sec.  

Rand

Rock face, Yosemite, @400 mm, shot from the valley floor (A900 w/70-400 G SSM & RRS TV-33 w/ BH-55):

(http://rsadams.smugmug.com/Landscapes/Landscapes/i-M7Q8DPd/2/X2/_DSC5371-X2.jpg)
Title: Re: Help me get sharper 400mm long exposure landscape shots!
Post by: Ray on April 06, 2013, 12:03:04 am
From the original poster, Quintin Lake, we have the following statement/question.

Quote
Therefore I'm guessing my series 2 gitzo ( GT2541 with RRS BH-40) isn't sturdy enough or perhaps there are are other long lens techniques I'm getting wrong???

At the end of page 2, we have the answer from Ben Rubinstein.

Quote
Neither the tripod nor the head were designed for that kind of focal length. I have a 2542 and the BH-40 and would not begin to use them for lenses over 300mm and their manufacturers do not recommend over 200mm. Add long exposures to that and you're just asking for trouble I'm afraid.

The problem is solved, and as is often the case with many problems, the simplest solution can be the best. Buy a sturdier tripod.  ;D