Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: Craig Lamson on March 16, 2013, 12:02:35 pm

Title: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 16, 2013, 12:02:35 pm
I have been hesitant to use tethered shooting with C1 since it will not allow for writing to the camera card.  I'm just not comfortable with only one copy of my files.  And I really wanted to do this so I can use Capture Pilot on my Ipad to control the camera.

Doing a backup to an external hard drive has been suggested and I gave it a try, using DropSync to back up my captures every minute.  It works fine, but yesterday the external got bumped and fell off the table.  No damage...this time and the files are intact.  But there has to be a better way.  I think there is.

Today I tested the same procedure using a 32GB sd card in the sd slot of my MacBook Pro instead of an external drive.  It worked perfectly. 

I used the card as formatted by the camera (5dII), but it might be better to dedicate a card and format it to a Mac standard.

So we get safe, flash storage of the backup and ease of use just like a camera card!

Comments?
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on March 16, 2013, 03:02:35 pm
If I were you, I would replace that drive ASAP.

Side note: Flash memory is not safe method of storage.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 16, 2013, 06:46:39 pm
If I were you, I would replace that drive ASAP.

Side note: Flash memory is not safe method of storage.

Well, we don't seem to have a problem using the same flash memory to store our image files in camera...
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 18, 2013, 12:28:19 pm
Hi Craig,

You could also secure the hard drive to the table.  ;)

I would recommend you format the card to the Mac OSX standard.  I wouldn't worry about dedicating a card you can easily format / reformat etc.

D

Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Kerry L on March 18, 2013, 05:48:12 pm
Craig,

The previous replies addressed only the secondary issue of securing your hard drive not the fundamental issue of the inability of C1pro to save to two locations when tethered.

I use a laptop (PC) when tethered and have a 500Gb SSD plugged into a USB port as the secondary storage. A while ago a "nerd" wrote a small text batch file that copies files from a designated folder to another which is on my SSD.  All this is similar to what DropSync is doing for you.

I like the SSD option rather than an SD card simply for it's storage size, these days 32Gb is not that much. The SSD, while small, is still a lot bigger than a camera card, faster to download and harder to misplace. Mine is a nice bright blue, too.

The problem is not whether someone velcros a drive to a table or not but that additional functionality is needed in C1pro when using a tethered setup.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 18, 2013, 08:28:28 pm
Craig,

The previous replies addressed only the secondary issue of securing your hard drive not the fundamental issue of the inability of C1pro to save to two locations when tethered.

I use a laptop (PC) when tethered and have a 500Gb SSD plugged into a USB port as the secondary storage. A while ago a "nerd" wrote a small text batch file that copies files from a designated folder to another which is on my SSD.  All this is similar to what DropSync is doing for you.

I like the SSD option rather than an SD card simply for it's storage size, these days 32Gb is not that much. The SSD, while small, is still a lot bigger than a camera card, faster to download and harder to misplace. Mine is a nice bright blue, too.

The problem is not whether someone velcros a drive to a table or not but that additional functionality is needed in C1pro when using a tethered setup.

32 GB works fine with my normal daily workload.

But I agree, and have voiced my opinion on this before...C1 should be allow for dual writes, one to the camera card and one to the computer.  I have tow other pieces of tethering software (for both Windows and OSX) that have no problems doing just that.  There should be no reason this cannot be enabled in C1.

I'm only suffering the current method because I want to use Capture Pilot and an iPad.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 19, 2013, 07:14:58 am
Hi Craig,

We would really like to make this feature but the SDK that Canon offer us does not include the ability to ask the camera to write additionally.

David

Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Kerry L on March 19, 2013, 10:26:41 am
Hi Craig,

We would really like to make this feature but the SDK that Canon offer us does not include the ability to ask the camera to write additionally.

David

Ok David, fair enough in that Nikon/Canon don't work with other companies. But how about designing the tethered interface module in C1pro to allow a "back-up" function as the Import tool does.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 19, 2013, 07:38:40 pm
Hi Craig,

We would really like to make this feature but the SDK that Canon offer us does not include the ability to ask the camera to write additionally.

David



Are you getting something different that what Breeze Systems is getting for example?  They have had this feature in their DSLR Remote Pro for years and it is still current.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Steve Weldon on March 19, 2013, 09:29:54 pm
Well, we don't seem to have a problem using the same flash memory to store our image files in camera...
This is true.  But it is all we generally have available in camera.   Unfortunately flash memory cards tend to go bad more often than the typical hard drive.  I think somewhat due to less than ideal build quality, but mostly due to poorly designed and written controllers.  Some other type of storage would be nice to increase upon inherently problematic flash drives.

I would put the best flash cards (Lexar/Sandisk) a step above this.  But many steps ahead would be an inexpensive SSD.  You can drop these all you like.  Use them as a puck for a game of street hockey if you like.  The connectors aren't that robust, but you can fix that by putting your SSD into a ruggedized external case with USB3.0 or even TB connectors.  And of course craft a suitable lanyard to hold the case and cable together.

Another option would be a top quality fast USB3.0 thumb drive.  Some come ruggedized.

Better yet, drop your files on both a high-end thumb drive AND a quality SSD..
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 20, 2013, 06:40:34 pm
This is true.  But it is all we generally have available in camera.   Unfortunately flash memory cards tend to go bad more often than the typical hard drive.  I think somewhat due to less than ideal build quality, but mostly due to poorly designed and written controllers.  Some other type of storage would be nice to increase upon inherently problematic flash drives.

I would put the best flash cards (Lexar/Sandisk) a step above this.  But many steps ahead would be an inexpensive SSD.  You can drop these all you like.  Use them as a puck for a game of street hockey if you like.  The connectors aren't that robust, but you can fix that by putting your SSD into a ruggedized external case with USB3.0 or even TB connectors.  And of course craft a suitable lanyard to hold the case and cable together.

Another option would be a top quality fast USB3.0 thumb drive.  Some come ruggedized.

Better yet, drop your files on both a high-end thumb drive AND a quality SSD..

I've had a total of two cards go bad in all the years of shooting digital, (if you don't count the weirdness with the Lexar cards and the 1Ds, and the cards still worked) and both were from the same batch of Trancend cards.

These files only need to go from the shoot to the office, and unless these ssd in the computer fails at the very same time (which is the same chance I'm taking by writing to the card in the camera and to the computer) it should be just fine.

So far it seems ok, and I'm willing to give it a go to see how it works out.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Steve Weldon on March 21, 2013, 04:39:06 am
I've had a total of two cards go bad in all the years of shooting digital, (if you don't count the weirdness with the Lexar cards and the 1Ds, and the cards still worked) and both were from the same batch of Trancend cards.

These files only need to go from the shoot to the office, and unless these ssd in the computer fails at the very same time (which is the same chance I'm taking by writing to the card in the camera and to the computer) it should be just fine.

So far it seems ok, and I'm willing to give it a go to see how it works out.

1.  I do count this because it illustrates the inherent weakness of flash cards where the controller and firmware are concerned.  I've seen more than a few issues caused by the flash card not having the native format of the site.

2.  Transcend.. I can' t think of a more failed card.  A friend in Texas just sent me one to see if I could save some data from it and my sister sent me what turned out to be the same card for the same reasons.

3.  I think what you're doing is great.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: nik on March 25, 2013, 10:49:57 am
Hi David,

What about Nikon, do you have the same SDK problem with them? If not, let's have this feature then! Does this feature exist with your backs? I don't think so.

Thanks for all the training videos you've been doing.



Hi Craig,

We would really like to make this feature but the SDK that Canon offer us does not include the ability to ask the camera to write additionally.

David


Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: MrSmith on March 25, 2013, 04:32:34 pm
What about an instant write to another drive or volume? Surely that can't be hard to do?
I know there are things like chronosync but it would be good to do it within the app.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 26, 2013, 04:50:39 am
Hi David,

What about Nikon, do you have the same SDK problem with them? If not, let's have this feature then! Does this feature exist with your backs? I don't think so.

Thanks for all the training videos you've been doing.




I have a feeling its not in the Nikon SDK at all.  But ill have to check.

I guess the disadvantage of a dual write is a hit on performance.  Might be faster / better to use Chronosync and hit the sync button inbetween bursts of shooting?

Three more training videos going up this week.  License Activation, Customising the Workspace and the Color Editor.  The last one shows how to use the Skin Tone tab in the Color Editor which we haven't explained so much before.  Glad you like them!

David

Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 26, 2013, 06:57:05 am


I guess the disadvantage of a dual write is a hit on performance.  Might be faster / better to use Chronosync and hit the sync button inbetween bursts of shooting?

David



Again that has not been the the case with Breeze Systems DSLR Remote or Eos Utility.  I've been using DSLR Remote since the introduction of the original 5D.

Its still a much better tethering solution than C1, and I still prefer it every time I'm not shooting to a Ipad.

BTW, I love C1 for processing files and its my go to software since V1.  The weakness in C1 is all the other stuff.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: nik on March 27, 2013, 01:59:55 am
Yes, I used Chronosync in the past and switched to Carbon Copy Cloner for session backup but was hoping for an even simpler, more automated solution. Basically the less I have to remember to do (hit the sync button inbetween bursts) the better off I am.

Maybe the dual write is why Lightroom is slower than C1 for tethering?

  Might be faster / better to use Chronosync and hit the sync button inbetween bursts of shooting?

Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on March 27, 2013, 07:15:06 am
Yes, I used Chronosync in the past and switched to Carbon Copy Cloner for session backup but was hoping for an even simpler, more automated solution. Basically the less I have to remember to do (hit the sync button inbetween bursts) the better off I am.

Maybe the dual write is why Lightroom is slower than C1 for tethering?


Lightroom don't use the Canon SDK but prefer to write their own protocol.  The more writing you do to more locations will of course slow things down.

Auto backup in down time - would be anice feature.

D
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Craig Lamson on March 27, 2013, 09:04:22 am
Yes, I used Chronosync in the past and switched to Carbon Copy Cloner for session backup but was hoping for an even simpler, more automated solution. Basically the less I have to remember to do (hit the sync button inbetween bursts) the better off I am.

Maybe the dual write is why Lightroom is slower than C1 for tethering?


I have Dropsync set to sync every minute and its works quietly in the background.  Again its a shame you need to resort to a third party solution for something as trivial as this.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: gdh on April 07, 2013, 05:08:06 pm
I'd like to be able to load directly to the card if it didn't slow things down as one poster suggested, however I don't see how this would be different that a DSLR with super high write speeds to 2 different media cards, so not sure it's really an issue. In the meantime, I've been using a 64GB UDMA 7 CFC with a card reader/writer and after the shoot upload my images to it and them take to my desktop computer where I do all my processing and down load just as I would a non tethered shoot.  Last night I did this with 450 raw images--I have an older laptop so it took about 17 minutes, but there were plenty of other things to do while waiting so not a big deal if there were a good reason this couldn't be done--if there is no good reason, then lets hope someone at P1 gets the message. And I see no reason why the inability of some camera systems to allow this should affect Phase One-Leaf-Mamiya.
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: figure1a on April 23, 2013, 12:48:45 am
Are you on a Mac? I've been using Apple's Time Machine and it is very fast. My setup is capture tethered to a MacBook Pro Retina with solid state drive which has an external USB3 solid state drive dedicated to Time Machine. The speed is amazing—I don't remember the exact speed of the backup but it's usually under a minute to backup a couple gigabytes. I do a backup when I feel I've done a bunch of captures that I wouldn't want to lose. Time Machine also does a backup every hour automatically. Since the interface and drive are so fast, I have never experience any interruption when Time Machine decided to do it's hourly auto backup.

I don't think that backup up to SD card is a good idea. Also, it's probably a slow transaction, right? If you are a pro shooter and have a busy set, you don't ever want to have to wait for a backup to finish or bog you down.

Also, a DigiPlate would solve your problem of your hard drives falling of the table.

Hope some of this helps!
Title: Re: Backup of files while shooting tethered.
Post by: Craig Lamson on April 23, 2013, 06:32:17 am
Are you on a Mac? I've been using Apple's Time Machine and it is very fast. My setup is capture tethered to a MacBook Pro Retina with solid state drive which has an external USB3 solid state drive dedicated to Time Machine. The speed is amazing—I don't remember the exact speed of the backup but it's usually under a minute to backup a couple gigabytes. I do a backup when I feel I've done a bunch of captures that I wouldn't want to lose. Time Machine also does a backup every hour automatically. Since the interface and drive are so fast, I have never experience any interruption when Time Machine decided to do it's hourly auto backup.

I don't think that backup up to SD card is a good idea. Also, it's probably a slow transaction, right? If you are a pro shooter and have a busy set, you don't ever want to have to wait for a backup to finish or bog you down.

Also, a DigiPlate would solve your problem of your hard drives falling of the table.

Hope some of this helps!

Thanks but it really is of no help.

I don't shoot fast, so the backup speed is of little concern.  At best I make 20 images a day mostly many less.  Dropsync moves new files every minute.  Ther is never more than a few files at a time to copy.  And again I have yet to see anyone put forth a valid reason why the SD card is bad medium for creating this backup.  Surely no need for hundreds of dollars of SSD drives and a digiplate when a piece of double stick velco would work just fine if I were to go back to a drive.

The answer here really is for Phase One to get off the dime.  Others can offer camera and computer recording at the same time. I simply don't buy Phases excuse as to why they can't.

Thanks for your comments.