Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: JonathanRimmel on March 05, 2013, 04:04:43 pm
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What is the deal with Nikon's (recent?) price gouging? Most camera's seem to be priced just fine, but what about the new Coolpix A? $1100? What?! http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikon-coolpix-a/
The optional "optical viewfinder" is $450! I could likely make one for say, $4.50?
What about the new 80-400 f/4.5-5.6. http://www.petapixel.com/2013/03/05/nikon-unveils-new-af-s-80-400mm-f4-5-5-6-first-update-in-over-a-decade/
It was in need of an update, but why are they charging $2700 for it? That's more than a 70-200 VR II.
Battery grips... need I say more?
It seems the big boys have been going a bit coo-coo as of late, while the small fries have been kicking butt and taking names. Olympus, Fuji, Pentax, Pentax, Leica, and Sony are all innovating, Nikon and Canon, not so much. What's the deal?
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There seems to be a lot of talk around about the price of this new camera. It does seem way out of line with what else is out there. WRT the lens, Nikon lenses are priced at a premium to others. And their accessories are obscene. Part of the reason I buy my lenses used and my accessories from 3rd parties.
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I thought that Nikon's pricing for their D800 models was meant to be a wonderful gesture to make great quality available at relatively low price!
Haven't heard anyone complain about that.
?
Rob C
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Good lenses are expensive; and we need even better lenses today with 36mp... so...
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the Nikon Coolpix A still has to prove itself- and again - the lens has to be good ... expensive..
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I thought that Nikon's pricing for their D800 models was meant to be a wonderful gesture to make great quality available at relatively low price!
Rob, PM me, I have a great deal on a bridge for you! 8)
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Rob, PM me, I have a great deal on a bridge for you! 8)
Thanks, but I've already bought London Bridge - and it's not true: it's not falling down; I send millions of pesetas every year just so my manager can keep it in pristine condition for the tourists!
;-)
Rob C
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I thought that Nikon's pricing for their D800 models was meant to be a wonderful gesture to make great quality available at relatively low price!
Haven't heard anyone complain about that.
?
Rob C
Yeah their DSLR's are priced just fine. Except perhaps the D4. But accessories? Lenses? Yeah, 3rd party sure looks good. Who knows, perhaps someday they may even surpass Leica's pricing...
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Nah. Leica took its cue from Rolex and stopped being a camera. Nowadays it's jewelry that also happens to make pictures, just like the Rolex that also happens to keep time.
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Nah. Leica took its cue from Rolex and stopped being a camera. Nowadays it's jewelry that also happens to make pictures, just like the Rolex that also happens to keep time.
And what a swell way to tell time.
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Jonathan, I'm not happy with some of Nikon's prices either, but what Nikon's doing hardly can it be "price gouging" since you don't have to buy their stuff. Left-wing politicians call it "price gouging" when, for instance, there's a shortage of gasoline after a hurricane and they want to show their constituents they're "doing something" by preventing the normal price mechanism from rationing the limited supplies in a sensible way. One problem has been the huge increase in the value of the Yen, caused mostly by Ben Bernanky and buddies printing humongous piles of funny money right here in the good old U.S.A. Happily the Japanese are starting to crank up the presses for thier own Yen. Given time that may help solve the problem.
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And what a swell way to tell time.
Not really. Rolex is like the Ferrari of watches. If you wear one, you must be compensating for some 'other' inadequacy. :D
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preventing the normal price mechanism from rationing the limited supplies in a sensible way.
There are other well-known sensible ways of rationing besides price when supply is inelastic, but from the general tenor of your post I can tell that you consider societal issues not worth considering, so never mind.
(That said, I do agree that Nikon should be free to charge whatever it wants for its accessories, and the market will take care of whether they are priced right.)
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Nah. Leica took its cue from Rolex and stopped being a camera. Nowadays it's jewelry that also happens to make pictures, just like the Rolex that also happens to keep time.
These kinds of comments usually come from someone who cannot afford, and usually have no experience with a Leica. Are they overpriced or merely high-priced? Certainly overpriced to someone who doesn't understand or appreciate their impeccable workmanship or their designed-for-a-purpose concept carried to full flower in the new M. Do not fault the company that their product has been co-opted by the glitterati!
As for Rolex, your point is correct. Since the '70s, Rolex has been a second-class timepiece compared to Patek or Vacheron and, since the '90s, at least a half-dozen other watches. But Rolex does not bear comparison with Leica, who stands at the pinnacle of workmanship and quality in their field.
So, perhaps fewer sour grapes in your diet?
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Hi Rip, Actually I owned three Leicas in the sixties and seventies, loved all three and did a bunch of professional work with them. But those were the days when Leicas still were the most usable cameras out there. I still can afford all the Leicas I want, but compared with the equipment available nowadays a Leica is a lot like a Model T. It just can't keep up with the competition. Leica still makes some of the best lenses in the world, and I have a Leica lens on my E-P1, but the M body is a rangefinder. Yes, it's a beautiful piece of machinery, mostly in an historical sense, but that's about all I can say for it.
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Not really. Rolex is like the Ferrari of watches. If you wear one, you must be compensating for some 'other' inadequacy. :D
Jeez, how wrong can you be?
My Rolex was bought in '72 because I could afford it and, from my first look at one years before, I thought it the most beautiful piece of industrial design ever conceived; my personal inadequacies were compensated for by taking up photography as a youngster.
If you could advise me on how I might now afford a Ferrari (new, of course) please don't hesitate to pass on the info.
Rob C
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Well, Rob, when you start living in the 21st century rather than reveling in the alleged 'good ol' days' of the 60s and 70s, then it may be worthwhile having a conversation. You do know that Heath is no longer PM, right?
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It seems like disquiet is led by a strange framing of the material being discussed.
Somehow it always turns personal on a whim.
I say tear the roof off the sucker...
The truth is the culture war is over.
An unhappy memory and best summed up by our current predicament.
Blame it on politics all you want.
America lost its way, Americans became disillusioned by the leadership it was losing,
Americans battled back at the voter level.
Abortion, gay marriage, drug legalization, all on the horizon despite Rush, Hannity or rand paul...
The culture wars are over...
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Well, Rob, when you start living in the 21st century rather than reveling in the alleged 'good ol' days' of the 60s and 70s, then it may be worthwhile having a conversation. You do know that Heath is no longer PM, right?
What a sad little reply. I suppose when you have nothing relevant to say, then personal attacks are all that's left to play with, right?
I didn't know that as of the year 2000 Rolex no longer existed; I wonder who now uses the name to sponsor yachting, tennis and all those other televised sports... perhaps it's just reruns; yeah, that would fit your hypothesis.
But hey, don't let envy spoil your life: someone always has better toys; trust me, I discovered that years and years ago. No need for you to have the pain - just imagine I bore it for you. Altruism rules.
;-)
Rob C
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Have you noticed that our forum software is long overdue for an upgrade? Looks like it is misbehaving worse than usual as of lately; it stutters, it sputters, it mixes and matches, seemingly at random, quotes and related comments. Take, for instance, the latest example:
I can swear this is how it was meant to be:
... Rolex is like the Ferrari of watches. If you wear one, you must be compensating for some 'other' inadequacy...
These kinds of comments usually come from someone who cannot afford, and usually have no experience with... So, perhaps fewer sour grapes in your diet?
And yet, our poor, old forum software assigned the comment to a rather unrelated thread... go figure.
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There are other well-known sensible ways of rationing besides price when supply is inelastic, but from the general tenor of your post I can tell that you consider societal issues not worth considering, so never mind.
Societal issues are exactly why price almost always is the best method of rationing when supply is inelastic. There's a hurricane. People evacuate and go looking for a motel. Because some grandstanding politician accused motels outside the damaged area of price gouging when they raised their prices and has set a legal limit on prices, family A gets there first and, since prices are low, takes three units so their two daughters can stay in one, their two sons can stay in another, and they can stay in the third. Along comes family B, a bit late because they had to rescue their kids. No motels are available, so they have to sleep in their car even though they could afford a motel perfectly well at the increased prices. That's the kind of, for some strange reason always unexpected, side effect usually produced by "other well-known sensible ways of rationing."
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Um, Russ? There is no rationing of any kind in your example. Straw man argument.
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Have you noticed that our forum software is long overdue for an upgrade? Looks like it is misbehaving worse than usual as of lately; it stutters, it sputters, it mixes and matches, seemingly at random, quotes and related comments. Take, for instance, the latest example:
I can swear this is how it was meant to be:
And yet, our poor, old forum software assigned the comment to a rather unrelated thread... go figure.
And it'll leave out the quoted bits in my requote, but..... the thing that some folks (or one folk) seem to have missed was the graemlin I inserted at the end of my original comment intending humour. ;) Sort of like that. :D Or that. Oy. ::)
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Um, Russ? There is no rationing of any kind in your example. Straw man argument.
Tell that to family B.
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Tell that to family B.
If the camera store has 10 cameras and you get to the store before me and buy the last one, that's not rationing. That's family A, they just happened to get there before family B did. Now if everyone has to line up to get into the store to get the cameras and theres a long line, that is rationing because queuing is recognized as a form of rationing (because some people won't want to wait). Other forms are rationing would be lottery, limiting number of purchases, allocating by name/license plate/etc. (I don't know if you remember the odd-even days in the 1970s oil crisis), and so on. But I digress, we were arguing about whether some forms of rationing are more or less socially desirable. Following your logic, the scarcity of organs for transplant should be dealt with by an unregulated market, so the person who can pay the most goes to the front of the line. Stuff like shelter, gasoline, water and food may not be exactly like organs, but we should be able to agree that they are essential goods.
And apologies to everyone else for the thread hijack. :o
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If the camera store has 10 cameras and you get to the store before me and buy the last one, that's not rationing. That's family A, they just happened to get there before family B did.
During WW II I was a teen, and doing all the photography I could.. There was a shortage of film and every couple weeks the local camera shop would get a quota. Since film was rationed and price-controlled, getting there early was imperative. If prices had been allowed to rise to take account of the fact film was scarce (inflexible supply) people who were older and more likely to make good use of the film would have bought it. Instead, I, a rank beginner, was able to get up early and take film away, even from the local pros. It's the same thing as family A, who needed three rooms like they needed a hole in the head, but since prices were "controlled" it was no sweat. Actually they weren't doing anything wrong. They were just doing what comes naturally when the stupid government gets into the middle of commerce. The problem is all around us, but invisible to those most affected.
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And it'll leave out the quoted bits in my requote, but..... the thing that some folks (or one folk) seem to have missed was the graemlin I inserted at the end of my original comment intending humour. ;) Sort of like that. :D Or that. Oy. ::)
Posted by: BobFisher
Insert Quote
Well, Rob, when you start living in the 21st century rather than reveling in the alleged 'good ol' days' of the 60s and 70s, then it may be worthwhile having a conversation. You do know that Heath is no longer PM, right?
No gremlin used there in your reply; simply blunt opinion reflecting the true sense and sentiment of the original post.
Rob C
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Or reflecting the completely humourless and inane response from you, Rob.
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Gentlmen,
What do you have to prove ?
Frank
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Warriors both!
Oft wondered about the unearned increment-
How does it make sense that everyone rich and poor,
is usually about a paycheck or two from disaster?
Because prices on everything go up to suit the people (you and me)
and their sense of entitlement.
You want to hear of an entitlement program I want to see dropped?
Done away with completely?
Equity and the time value of money.
The most ridiculous scam in the history of mankind.
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Bravo Rocco!
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Bravo Rocco!
I might concur, if only I knew what you guys are talking about.
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Well this topic certainly took a strange turn. lol
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Warriors both!
1. Oft wondered about the unearned increment-
How does it make sense that everyone rich and poor,
is usually about a paycheck or two from disaster?
2. Because prices on everything go up to suit the people (you and me)
and their sense of entitlement.
You want to hear of an entitlement program I want to see dropped?
Done away with completely?
3. Equity and the time value of money.
The most ridiculous scam in the history of mankind.
1. Rocco, you are simply mistaken. The poor may well be a couple of pay-days away from disaster, but you have led a very sheltered life if you think the rich are paddling in the same canoe.
Come over here for a while and you’ll see villas, yachts, private aircraft and all of the toys you can imagine. Many yachts are up for sale, and some are for sale because of cash-flow, but many are also on the market because the owners want to upgrade. What you notice in that industry is that the middle has vanished. Some small ski boats still sell and so do the big boats, but the medium ones, the "middle-class’s" toys are dead in the water or, usually, rotting up on the hard, uncleaned and virtually abandoned until happier times… There used to be four yards on these islands building the traditional fishing boat: not one exists today.
2. Prices go up because incomes usually go up. From my own memory of the 50s I get the distinct impression, in the UK at least, that prices remained fairly stable until it became fashionable for women to get work outwith the factory-grade jobs. There was a wartime legacy of women in factories because of the needs to retain production during WW2; when the men lucky enough to come back alive tried to get their normal jobs back, they found them filled by many of those women. That created all sorts of labour problems, and one result was to keep female pay lower than male in a move that suited both employers and the concept of the ‘earning male’. Consequently, prices in the shops stayed fairly level for a while, aimed at the ability of a single-earner family to meet those prices, until all the building reconstruction and burgeoning industrial activity let merchants see that more money was available to spend, and surprise! up went prices!
Where did that drive many families? Into the ‘choice’ factor women had, their Shakespearian moment of ‘to work or not to work’ being taken away, the new option being work or the family goes hungry. So, every family (within the lower orders) now had two breadwinners: two salaries to pay for the family fridge, the washing machine. Why price them the same any longer?
3. So how would you expect to be renumerated for your own services? Be given a chicken? The guy with the degree earn the same as the guy with no education? That happens already when there is no new employment; does it make you or anyone else any the happier or better off? I can understand a certain sense of perverted pleasure in the downfall of someone better skilled than oneself, but that hardly makes such situations right. If it did, what would it serve anyone to spend years of their lves in the pursuit of learning? And without that learning, we’d still be living in caves. Imagine! No Internet, no LuLa!
:-)
Rob C
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I don't think Nikon is price gouging. The price of everything has risen. 1 word-gas
A savvy buyer can score incredible deals on used gear. Sometimes barely used with original stickers,
for a fraction of gearing up w/similar new- Think of the new/used market on cars and such
I think M9's are a few G's used-[ 7xxx shutter count(IIRC)]
It's what made me think of TVOM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money
So nah, the condition of an individual compared to others isn't a beef I have.
After all, I have lived a very sheltered existence in the 8th largest economy in the world at ground zero of such enormous capital accumulation as to make it nearly unlivable to any but the best funded.
My best isn't that far from my worst...
Everything on the line-fabulous wealth or abject poverty- you don't understand-
This is the land of milk and honey,
too bad everybody already ripped everybody else off,
we could have everything we ever dreamed of.
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The price of everything has risen. 1 word-gas
Strange, then, how my last fuel bill, for standard diesel, was at 1.502 euros a litre. You pay nothing like that in the States, but our prices for Photoshop in Britain/Spain seem to be pretty much pound for dollar with those in the USA...as for cars, you should see what cars cost here. The second-hand price of cars in Spain is anything but low; up to a certain age, you are also obliged to pay a tax on selling them, as I know from when I sold my Escort. Fortunately, at 12 or 13 years it was just out of the hands of the taxman. Tax when you buy the mother, more when you have to sell it! Just wait: air contains gasses - they'll think of a way to tax those too!
Few but the really rich trade cars every year or two now; my Fiesta is just two, and last year I went back to the Ford dealer to see what it would be worth against something else. He told me to forget it: when the Fiesta is three years old it'll fetch the same as it would now; enjoy the three years.
So no, it isn't just gas. Gas is traded internationally and prices are clear; what's not always so clear is the huge percentage some governments like to levy on it in order to keep one part of the country happy on freebies whilst milking the other part that produces the wealth in the first place.
Rob C
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Hi,
Yes, but you need consider the whole system before taking a plunge. I was considering to switch to Nikon when the D800 arrived, it would be around 10000€, but I decided to stay with Sony. My main concern was really that Sony lacked a sophisticated camera with live view.
The new Sony Alpha 99 has some great features.
Live view! Live View! Live View! I missed that for four long years.
Three hardware presets, no menu choices just rotate knob. For me this is worth a lot!
Antishake handled by presets. No more antishake when shooting on tripod.
I don't say it's a perfect camera, or that it is better than Nikon, Zeiss, Hasselblad, Canon or a Holga, just that those features make my picture making easier and more enjoyable.
Best regards
Erik
Hell, from where I'm sitting Nikon prices look like real bargains.
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Hell, from where I'm sitting Nikon prices look like real bargains.
Yes, from the UK they do.
When I got rid of my 24mm-70mm G Nikkor I bought a 2.8/180mm ED AF Nikkor - the only AF one I own but never use in AF. I ended up paying more for it than the zoom I was trying to get rid of, but without making a new buy, the dealer (a wholesaler, even!) wouldn't deal. The price? €1475.86 which seems to be about double the UK price for the AF version. The older manual version seemed unobtainable. As it was more expensive in the UK than the AF version in the UK, perhaps just as well!
So who's to blame? Nikon in Spain, hidden Spanish taxation? You never find out - you just have to pay.
From that experience I started to buy expensive stuff by post from London. The wholesaler closed the Mallorcan branch and the Barcelona main depot didn't give a shit when I 'phoned them about something else... I miss the old local camera shop in Scotland where the chap knew his stuff.
Rob C
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Rob, we've probably been here before, but why do you have to pay?
We've recently bought a Lumix lens for Viv. Bricks 'n mortar outlets here in the UK listed it at £995 but we eventually bought it online for £695. Most of my photographic purchases are made online for the same reason.
Why pay more?
Well, Keith, since the closure of that wholesaler here, I've no choice anymore.
Basically, I don't like the feeling of having to trust in a dealer I've never met. Today, with the problem of little or no final inspection before stuff is put out of the factory, the cost and effort involved in posting anything heavy, expensive and faulty out of Spain and back and forth is a nightmare; I tried to insure something in the local post office once: couldn't be done without a trip to Palma (two hours in the car). Proving that there's something amiss would be pretty much impossible for me to do. In a nutshell, nothing replaces the confidence I used to have in my small, local expert camera shop, and the service was excellent, too.
Yes, I know some find this sentiment anathema, but I feel the modern electronic ways of selling are a heap of crap. I simply miss person-to-person relationships with business partners.
Rob C
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What about the new 80-400 f/4.5-5.6. http://www.petapixel.com/2013/03/05/nikon-unveils-new-af-s-80-400mm-f4-5-5-6-first-update-in-over-a-decade/
Well, the increase is price between the 2 generations of the 80-400 seems less than the effect of currency and inflations in the meantime.
The US$ was deflated roughly 50% relative to the Yen between the release years of the 2 iterations of the 80-400, it shouldn't come as a surprise that an impact can be seen on the price of imported goods.
- you had 120 Yen for 1 US$ in 2001,
- you had 80 Yen for 1 US$ end of 2012.
So if you are a US citizen, you need to scream at your Federal Reserver and authorities for having decided to deflate the US$ to favor exports. It would seem that photographers were not part of the target.
That is of course without taken into account the inflation in the US that, by itself, was around 30% between 2000 and 2012.
All in all, the 80-400 at its current price of 2,700 US$ is in fact cheaper than the original lens was. In fact, Nikon should be thanked for not having adjusted the price of the old 80-400 for inflation all along. If you are mad at them, I cannot imagine how mad you are at your grocery store... because they do adjust for inflation on a yearly basis.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Also,
canon and nikon in the used market reflect original value as well as current-
Try and find a used 500+mm lens for either
Then try and find 1 for less than 2K
The value of my 600 seems to be going UP
Funny, but if you had a car that you used steadily for 5-7 years,
could you sell it for the same $
no way
It's easy to appreciate a price structure when you are the beneficiary of it.
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Also,
canon and nikon in the used market reflect original value as well as current-
Try and find a used 500+mm lens for either
Then try and find 1 for less than 2K
The value of my 600 seems to be going UP
Funny, but if you had a car that you used steadily for 5-7 years,
could you sell it for the same $
no way
It's easy to appreciate a price structure when you are the beneficiary of it.
http://youtu.be/Gv61zBZacpo
Rob C
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Well, Keith, since the closure of that wholesaler here, I've no choice anymore.
Basically, I don't like the feeling of having to trust in a dealer I've never met. Today, with the problem of little or no final inspection before stuff is put out of the factory, the cost and effort involved in posting anything heavy, expensive and faulty out of Spain and back and forth is a nightmare; I tried to insure something in the local post office once: couldn't be done without a trip to Palma (two hours in the car). Proving that there's something amiss would be pretty much impossible for me to do. In a nutshell, nothing replaces the confidence I used to have in my small, local expert camera shop, and the service was excellent, too.
Yes, I know some find this sentiment anathema, but I feel the modern electronic ways of selling are a heap of crap. I simply miss person-to-person relationships with business partners.
Rob C
Seems to me that you DO have a choice. Spend the time, effort and money on travelling to the nearest (however far that is) bricks and mortar shop and get all benefits a real shop can offer. Or save money and go without the benefits.
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a prime case of "what you see is what you get"
goddam Merle---
thanks Rob
Ain't ashamed to say that makes the smell of cold coors in a can come alive
thinking back to a time I mighta said I haight country music,
unless it's merle
or another hero of the coastal crowd
a star round these parts whose country you only can discern if you're from here- one of my favorites
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0-oR1h_ZJw
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a prime case of "what you see is what you get"
goddam Merle---
thanks Rob
Ain't ashamed to say that makes the smell of cold coors in a can come alive
thinking back to a time I mighta said I haight country music,
unless it's merle
or another hero of the coastal crowd
a star round these parts whose country you only can discern if you're from here- one of my favorites
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0-oR1h_ZJw
Thanks Rocco - I didn't know about this guy: love the beat and blue country! Another for the favourites list.
Rob C
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a prime case of "what you see is what you get"
goddam Merle---
thanks Rob
Ain't ashamed to say that makes the smell of cold coors in a can come alive
thinking back to a time I mighta said I haight country music,
unless it's merle
If you like merle then you will love this guy. He sounds like merle and George Jones rolled into one. I have been listening to C&W for over forty years and recently discovered him. He is simply the best and writes his own songs. Visit Amazon and download his stuff.
http://www.theconnextion.com/dalewatson/index.cfm :)
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hah! saw him with the wronglers
haven't been to shows in years now::) ;D
probably saw 100+ artists a year for about 10 years running until the turn of the millenium
then 9-11 came and it just wasn't fun
mood changed
cops in the venues
hardcore debauchery became commonplace-
Country alt or"americana" had been co opted by labels and easy marketing-
Now if you want to see a fine act in a nice place you have to go to a day show...
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If you like male voices, then is is where I think country does it best:
http://youtu.be/_yTtWX6fvIA
http://youtu.be/AFQ77DfQiU0
Rob C
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Rob,
Or grievous angel and first cosmic cowboy Gram Parsons revving up w/Emmylou Harris on the 2nd link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1iisLkOPss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqf9p9MpZBU
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Rob,
Or grievous angel and first cosmic cowboy Gram Parsons revving up w/Emmylou Harris on the 2nd link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1iisLkOPss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqf9p9MpZBU
Yeah, liked Parsons a lot:
http://youtu.be/VBsQJX9PapQ
http://youtu.be/RCqxq6xqoXI
Another memory of a good time in my life:
http://youtu.be/Hf0Dm-OaTNk
Rob C
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Yeah, liked Parsons a lot:
http://youtu.be/VBsQJX9PapQ
http://youtu.be/RCqxq6xqoXI
Another memory of a good time in my life:
http://youtu.be/Hf0Dm-OaTNk
Rob C
deeeeeeeeeeeeep bench around here
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Get a room, guys! ;D
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Get a room, guys! ;D
¿Qué?
Rob C
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Well, the increase is price between the 2 generations of the 80-400 seems less than the effect of currency and inflations in the meantime.
You're correct, I forgot about inflation. Ha, the solution to that seems so simple. STOP PRINTING MONEY! Duh!
So I suppose the prices are not that bad for lenses at least. But accessories are still far more expensive than they should be.