Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Paris1968 on February 04, 2013, 10:25:54 pm
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I have an Epson 7900 and I use i1 Profiler with an iSYS to make profiles. Until recently, I've had no problems, but being somewhat cheap I let two 150 ml starter carts get to about 10%. The other carts had already been replaced and were full. While that was happening, I made some profiles, and for the first time noticed that the resulting prints were unsatisfactory, too dark and too red. I repeated everything, calibrated the monitor, checked and rechecked, printed and scanned new targets, but achieved the same result. Finally, when the carts got to 8%, I replaced them with 300 ml carts. Then I made new profiles with the same paper as before, and, surprise, everything was back in order, the colors were spot on. Is it possible that the low ink levels affected the pressure in the nozzles so that the small patch colors would print okay, but when a larger print demanded more of one of those inks, the color failed and could not reproduce the colors as in the patch charts. I have no idea if that's possible, but has anyone else noticed a connection between low ink levels and poor profiles?
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For me the answer is no. I print till the cartridge says "empty" and must be replaced. The Epson manual (4900) also says one can do this. I have not noticed any impairment of image quality and I am well-enough colour-managed that if anything were amiss I would notice it immediately. That said, I find your experience most interesting and it will be useful to read a broader range of experience here.
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Have you compared the superimposed 3D graphs of those various profiles in i1Profiler? Might be interesting. It's pretty easy to change the state of one's color management default settings during profiling and then forget about it, which is the usual reason for wiggy prints right after profiling. But if you've got an iSYS you probably are a cut above that. :)
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Paper or humidity variation, perhaps operator error is more likely than the ink level being 10%.
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Not sure if anyone has tried this but thought I'ld post the results of a little experiment I've been wanting to conduct concerning how much ink is really left over when the Epson software and onboard printer alerts indicate "Low Ink" warning.
The yellow DuraBrite pigment ink cartridge on my $50 Epson "All In One" I use for quick 8x10's indicated low on both the Epson driver and on the printer itself. So I created a yellow color fill of RGB 255,255,5 that would print full saturation yellow with none of the other 3 CMK inks printing a quarter a page at a time until the driver prevented printing the next quarter page with a "Replace Ink Cartridge" alert instead of "Low Ink".
I also wanted to see if the Epson electronics within the cartridge chip intelligently analyzes and compares and communicates within the print spool how much ink is left in cartridge to complete the job and stop the process in order to save paper or prevent the print head clogging due to non-completion from a completely spent cartridge. I've read somewhere online some time ago with older more expensive Epson inkjets it's not good for the print heads to have them completely run out of ink from a completely spent cartridge.
Anyway see the photo posted below I shot showing how much ink was really left over in the cartridge upon a "Low Ink" alert. I ended up throwing away quite a bit of ink on the cyan cartridge because I didn't know how much was actually left over before the driver prevented printing with a "Replace Ink Cartridge". I immediately replaced the cyan cartridge on the first "Low Ink" alert. Now I know better.
I realize most here are using more expensive Epson printer with larger and more expensive ink capacity cartridges so I doubt you'ld want to waste ink like I did with this experiment. My cost for each moderate use ink cartridge is $14 so I'm not out much.
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I have an Epson 7900 and I use i1 Profiler with an iSYS to make profiles. Until recently, I've had no problems, but being somewhat cheap I let two 150 ml starter carts get to about 10%.
There's still a boat load of that ink in the lines so the likely hood this affected your output is pretty tiny. IOW, I agree with Mark. Something else happened.
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The yellow DuraBrite pigment ink cartridge on my $50 Epson "All In One" ...
Who's build, inks and behavior (and the amount of ink within the lines) is about as far away from the OP's 7900 as one could hope unless he had maybe a 9900 (or 11880).
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Who's build, inks and behavior (and the amount of ink within the lines) is about as far away from the OP's 7900 as one could hope unless he had maybe a 9900 (or 11880).
Then is there any way of knowing for sure how much ink is left to print with so the user of the more expensive printer using more expensive paper doesn't waste it on a botched print run?
Like for instance if a user decides to print a poster sized job and he has just enough ink, is there some kind of intelligence within the Epson driver or electronics that would stop the job from going through due to there being some ink but not enough for a poster size area?
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Then is there any way of knowing for sure how much ink is left to print with so the user of the more expensive printer using more expensive paper doesn't waste it on a botched print run?
I print until the printer refused to continue, then add new inks. I've yet to have an issue, even if it stops midway on a print. Add ink, continue.
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Then is there any way of knowing for sure how much ink is left to print with so the user of the more expensive printer using more expensive paper doesn't waste it on a botched print run?
Like for instance if a user decides to print a poster sized job and he has just enough ink, is there some kind of intelligence within the Epson driver or electronics that would stop the job from going through due to there being some ink but not enough for a poster size area?
I was just about to say exactly the same thing as Andrew just said. My experience too. Ink runs out, printer stops, replace cartridge, printer resumes; never ever a hint on the print of any interruption in the printing process. But if a job is in progress and you suspect an ink may run-out, you should be around the printer to replace the cartridge when it happens.
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I print until the printer refused to continue, then add new inks. I've yet to have an issue, even if it stops midway on a print. Add ink, continue.
Not concerned about the printer stopping in the middle of a print. Just wondering if it would allow the printing to continue with color balance off due to a lack of ink in one of the cartridges.
If there's a botched print due to off colors on expensive poster sized 100% cotton rag paper on a professional grade printer, that's a pretty big waste of resources.
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Not concerned about the printer stopping in the middle of a print. Just wondering if it would allow the printing to continue with color balance off due to a lack of ink in one of the cartridges.
NO
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Then the OP's problem could be that when he replaced the ink which corrected the problem, the print head may have been clogged prior to printing the target and the new cartridge cleaned the print head.
Inkjets use the ink to clean the print heads even in expensive models, right?
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Not concerned about the printer stopping in the middle of a print. Just wondering if it would allow the printing to continue with color balance off due to a lack of ink in one of the cartridges.
Maybe with a $50 printer, but with the Epson's I use (3880 on up, even real old Epson's), as Mark says: No.
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Then the OP's problem could be that when he replaced the ink which corrected the problem, the print head may have been clogged prior to printing the target and the new cartridge cleaned the print head.
Inkjets use the ink to clean the print heads even in expensive models, right?
Yes, ink cleans the heads when you commission a cleaning cycle, but changing cartridges does not automatically trigger a cleaning - at least not in any of the Epson Pro printers I've used over the past 10 years. I have not used a 7900 however. It also depends on settings. He didn't mention whether any cleanings happened (if he had auto-cleaning enabled) at any point during the sequence of events he initially described.
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So we can assume he had clogged printheads as the cause of his color balance issues that was corrected by replacing the ink cartridge.
What else could it be?
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So we can assume he had clogged printheads as the cause of his color balance issues that was corrected by replacing the ink cartridge.
What else could it be?
In light of how these printers normally perform in the respects we discussed above, and absent any further detail on his case, it is not possible to conclude this or any thing else just now.
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In light of how these printers normally perform in the respects we discussed above, and absent any further detail on his case, it is not possible to conclude this or any thing else just now.
I would think for a $3000 printer one wouldn't have to rely on getting free troubleshooting advice online to solve their problems. That's the one aspect about these printers and their owners I can never understand.
For that amount of cash Epson and any other high end inkjet printer manufacturer should be bending over backwards with every little thing that goes wrong with these behemoth printers and help their customers.
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I would think for a $3000 printer one wouldn't have to rely on getting free troubleshooting advice online to solve their problems. That's the one aspect about these printers and their owners I can never understand.
For that amount of cash Epson and any other high end inkjet printer manufacturer should be bending over backwards with every little thing that goes wrong with these behemoth printers and help their customers.
You have a point - a lot of stuff comes onto this forum that should be directed to the manufacturers. In some cases it is because the posters have been frustrated by the manufacturers when they tried to do this; in others it is because they didn't know the extent of support from the manufacturers they have open to them, especially out of warranty. While peoples' experience is all over the place, speaking for myself, I have always found Epson America's Pro Graphics support to be very forthcoming with advice even when called on issues beyond warranty.
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Operator error is always a possibility, as is mere coincidence, post hoc ergo propter hoc. These are complicated machines, after all, and I often wonder that they work so well as they do, but it was still an interesting occurrence. Here are some more facts. The carts that were low were 110 ml starter carts, so when they reported back 10%, we are probably talking about ~10 ml in reserve, not 30 or 70 ml as might be the case with larger carts. My routine is to do a nozzle check and head cleaning before printing any patch charts. On the whole, I've been very lucky and have experienced few clogs anyway. After replacing a cart, I always turn off the printer once it runs its priming cycle, pull the plug, wait a bit, then restart the printer, do a nozzle check and head cleaning if needed. My intent is to re-initialize everything, and that may have fixed the problem itself, whatever it may have been.
I agree that there is a large amount of ink in the feeder tubes, but I wonder if there is a shortage of ink in the cart, would it effect the pressure in the line. This might not make much difference when printing a tiny spot on a 8" patch chart, but when the head is swinging back and forth through 24" printing in each direction, the demand on the ink supply must be much greater. I am just guessing, but to me it's an interesting suggestion.
I can say that with the Canon 6300, and before that the 6200, I do run the carts until they are dry, which sometimes happens in the middle of a print. And with the Canon, I have never noticed any color errors due to low ink, before it just stops, that is.
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I would think for a $3000 printer one wouldn't have to rely on getting free troubleshooting advice online to solve their problems. That's the one aspect about these printers and their owners I can never understand.
First, a small side point. When I look at the Epson printer pricing and then look at the printers themselves, it's hard for me to see how they're making much (or maybe any) money on the printers themselves if all costs are fully allocated. I think Epson views the printers as devices to use up ink, for which the company is extremely well compensated. That doesn't negate your main point, but I'd phrase it that I'd expect Epson to be standing on its corporate head to do anything that gets its customers printing like mad.
On the advisability of bringing an esoteric complaint like the one that started this thread to this forum rather then taking it to Epson support, I'd vote for this forum. Over the years, I have had many -- too many -- dealings with Epson support. (To read about one extended set of conversations, get a cup of coffee, start here (http://www.kasson.com/bleeding_edge/?p=13) and read the next two posts, then go here (http://www.kasson.com/bleeding_edge/?p=51) and read the next three posts.) I have found them to be polite and quick to tell me anything that they knew, which did not approach the level of expertise represented here. If these people were true experts, they wouldn't be working phones for a living. I have also found that there are some topics, usually bugs, upon which they are reticent, probably because they have been told to be so.
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Paper or humidity variation
Here in Colorado at about 6500 feet, I've pretty sure I’ve noticed differences from bad weather vs. good weather. With lower barometric pressure, I speculate that the cartridges don't "breathe" as well. That might be kind of like the old carburetors that needed to be re-jetted when you moved to Colorado.
Or not?
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I use i1 Profiler with an iSYS to make profiles.
I agree with other posters that you probably won't see much difference. I print with hobby'ist level Canon 9000-2 and iP4500 dye inkjets that both use fully translucent CLI-8 carts. So "consider the source" as your Epson 7900 is a whole different beast.
I've intentionally and carefully used up the ink far enough on an older Canon printer to get the ominous message "ink is really, really low ... if you insist on proceeding, hold down the reset button for five seconds, but your warranty will be void". This will happen about 5 to 10+ prints after the Empy warning has shown up. "This way be demons"
At that point, I've pulled the cart, looked at the sponges, and weighed the cart. The bottom filter/sponge in the outlet port of the CLI-8 cart ... that touches the print-head itself ... was still moist. The sponge above that was definitely less moist than the norm when looking at a cart that was checked at the point the printer indicated "Empty". The test prints I was making still looked normal.
Here's something I've done that you might consider doing if you are still curious ...
- When you notice the ink is not only low, but very low ...
- load 5 or more sheets of inexpensive inkjet paper
- use a profile that fits on 1 sheet like the TC9.18 that comes with PMP5 .. or make your own with iProfiler
- print the test-chart profile once or twice and set aside
- put a timestamp on these print(s) and also an annotation "low ink"
- put a fresh/full ink tank in your printer
- use the remaining paper to make more prints of the same test-chart
- put a timestamp on the profiles and also an annotation "fresh/full ink"
- set all prints aside for several hours to a day to dry thoroughly ... I've use a drying rack and don't leave them stacked on each other
- make measurements with your software (and optionally save values with "Custom" to get human readable Lab values.
- check with i1Profiler or MeasureTool's compare utility
- hover your mouse over the patch of interest corresponding to the very low ink
- see if there is a De2k reading over a threshold you decide on for that patch
- IF the ink level makes a difference, you'll be able to observe a measureable difference in the Lab values as a "transition" from the print(s) made with the Very Low cartridge to the prints made with the fresh/full ink cart.
- it's been a while since I've done something like this, but it seems like the De2k was well under 0.3, which is consistent with typical measurement and print-to-print variance ... and well under what most people can see
- The acid test, of course, is the profile itself. With the compare utility, you can compare one profile to another, as well as on a patch by patch basis