Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: pjtn on February 04, 2013, 06:20:19 pm

Title: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 04, 2013, 06:20:19 pm
I've almost all but decided to purchase a 45mm TS-E lens to do landscape work with. I haven't found the answer to a couple of questions and I'm hoping someone might be able to help?

How much resolution gain can be expected from a full shift stitch with the camera in a vertical position on a 5D MKII?

Can a stitch be made without needing the camera to be level to the horizon?

I ask that last question because when I had a RRS Pano stitching kit it always had to be level to the horizon.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Paul2660 on February 04, 2013, 06:35:58 pm
As I recall the 45mm TS-E has 11mm of shift available.  You will get about 1/3 of a new frame with a full stitch of 11mm in the vertical.  

You don't have to have the camera exactly level to the horizon if you are stitching with the 45mm TS-E.  

Here is a good article from outbackphoto.com that covers this subject.

http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html (http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html)

Paul Caldwell
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 04, 2013, 08:20:55 pm
I've almost all but decided to purchase a 45mm TS-E lens to do landscape work with. I haven't found the answer to a couple of questions and I'm hoping someone might be able to help?

How much resolution gain can be expected from a full shift stitch with the camera in a vertical position on a 5D MKII?

Can a stitch be made without needing the camera to be level to the horizon?

I ask that last question because when I had a RRS Pano stitching kit it always had to be level to the horizon.

If you mean with the camera oriented so the long side of the frame is upright (also known as "portrait" orientation) you should be getting maybe 90%  more pixels  if you shift the lens sideways in both directions so shoot with the lens centered, then shifted to the left, and then to the right. While you could possibly do this without the center frame my experience (with interiors) is that the extra data in the center frame helps resolve any possible parallax errors.

The sensor does not need to be perpendicular to nor the frame edge parallel  with the horizon, even with the RRS Pano gear. The bubble levels in the RRS pano gear are there as helpers not dictators.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 04, 2013, 08:29:24 pm
I only had the RRS Single Row pano kit, which I suppose can be pointed up or down but would always result in a motion which is not parallel to the horizon.

From the articles that I've read 90% increase was about what I guessed. So a 5D MKII should be capable of around 40mp with luck.

I guess that begs the question, is it worth stitching a 5D MKII or would a Nikon D800E provide as much image quality in a single frame? I recently sold my Phase One P30+ so have no camera and can start from complete scratch. Personally I prefer Canons cameras, but the image quality from the D800 is quite tempting.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 04, 2013, 08:32:39 pm
Just remembered, another thing I was thinking about is the tonal transitions. I know that stitching wont increase the tonal values, but would it not compress them and make the transitions smoother? I love that smoothness from my Phase One and thought it would be nice if I could mimic it to some degree.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: stever on February 04, 2013, 11:36:17 pm
maybe this leads to a rehash of old arguments, but why use the shift for a pano rather use a pano head with a good 50mm (or several other possibilities)
    - the 45 TS is not the sharpest tack in the box
    - the shifted extremes are using the marginal edges of the lens

a pano head allows the use of a variety of lenses for wider panos that can be cropped to be sharp edge to edge

what am i missing here?
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 04, 2013, 11:45:37 pm
My reasons are:

- You cannot tilt a standard lens
- I'm after a consistent 4:3 aspect ratio
- The TS-E lens is much smaller and lighter than a full pano kit
- There should be very few stitching errors
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 04, 2013, 11:47:47 pm
It's a coincidence that you bring this up today. I've been doing some testing of making panos by shifting vs the conventional method, and my initial tests, performed this morning, are better with the conventional method. I'm think there are probably conditions under which shifting is better, and I'd like to find out  about them.

See here  (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=2707)for the testing I've done so far.

You seem to have decided that shifting is better for what you want to do. I'm interested in why you decided that.

Thanks,

Jim
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 05, 2013, 12:04:04 am
Oh, another reason is that some of my exposures will be longer, perhaps up to 30 seconds. With too many images the light is likely to change and become a problem. So the limit of 3 images from the TS-E isn't a problem.

I understand more images would result in better quality, but the main thing for me is that the TS-E will result in better quality than just a single shot. Or is the edge performance on these lenses so weak that it would not result in a better image?

My print size is likely to be around 32x24".
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 05, 2013, 12:09:37 am
Interesting writeup Jim. Stitching the D800 files must give some incredible image quality.

I particularly love Michael Lange's Wald series of images. He has used a Leaf 33mp back and stitched to create his images, I would love to see those prints in real life. It really makes me wonder if stitched D800 files would be in the same ballpark.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: HarperPhotos on February 05, 2013, 12:13:25 am
Hello,

This shot was created with a Nikon D800E and a Nikon 35mm F1.4G lens in the vertical position with a standard Manfrotto L plate.

The image consists of 15 images stitched together in PS6 and then down sized to 417Mg as the original was well over 1.5Gig.

http://www.yousendit.com/download/UW14OU1SZ1BUWUROUjhUQw

Personally for doing panoramas I don’t think it is necessary to use a TS-E lens.

Ciao

Simon
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: HarperPhotos on February 05, 2013, 12:18:24 am
Hello,

Here is another image with the Nikon D800E and Nikon 28mm F1.8G lens

http://www.yousendit.com/download/UW16K0dzNDJWRCswYjhUQw

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 05, 2013, 12:48:04 am
Those files have incredible detail at 100% Simon. I can see why some people are comparing the D800E to 4x5 film.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: HarperPhotos on February 05, 2013, 12:55:03 am
Hello,

Thanks and these PSD images have been down sized as well.

That’s the reason why I have sold all my Mamiya 645 kit and about to sell all my Mamiya RZ kit and Leaf Aptus 75 back as I have no use for it. I also have my Sinar P2 kit for sale as well as all this equipment is now redundant.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Petrus on February 05, 2013, 02:59:01 am
To do a "perfect" stitch with a shift lens the lens must be stationary and the body shifted. That would be the same as using a panorama head with fixed nodal point with conventional rotation panorama.

It is not relevant to compare large cylinder projection panoramas with shift lens plane projection stitch. 2 different animals. The first is a cylinder projection (did I echo myself), the later is just a makeShift (heh...) method of using the full image circle of the lens doing a normal plane projection.

What should be compared is a shift lens stitch and a 2-3 frame panorama with plane projection rendering covering the same area, and comparing these two. D800 shot might win.

addendum: Plane projection = rectilinear projection (?) Sorry my English, but I did study a bit of descriptive geometry, but not in English...
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 05, 2013, 05:37:37 am
I've almost all but decided to purchase a 45mm TS-E lens to do landscape work with. I haven't found the answer to a couple of questions and I'm hoping someone might be able to help?

How much resolution gain can be expected from a full shift stitch with the camera in a vertical position on a 5D MKII?

In millimetres, you'll add 2x 11mm to the 24mm in portrait orientation, so your virtual sensor becomes 46x36mm, which translates to 7176 x 5616 pixels (40.3 MP) on the 5D Mark II. Of course the image quality at the fully shifted edges will be a bit less than in the center of the image circle.

Quote
Can a stitch be made without needing the camera to be level to the horizon?

Yes, by shifting you only increase the image circle you can capture (in 2 or 3 shots), and thus increase the field of view. The aspect ratio does become a bit more square (2:2.56 instead of 2:3), so you may want to crop for the best composition. That's IMHO one of the benefits of rotational stitching instead of shifting, one can add as many tiles as the subject requires rather than letting the image size dictate the composition. 

Quote
I ask that last question because when I had a RRS Pano stitching kit it always had to be level to the horizon.

It's a pitty that you don't seem to have that kit anymore, because only shifting the lens (entrance pupil) will introduce parallax. With as small addition of 2 stopbars and a sliding clamp set you could have solved that (a shorter bar can be used if size is a concern), as I have:

(http://bvdwolf.home.xs4all.nl/temp/OPF/RRS_OrthographicStitch.jpg)

That works pretty fast, shift lens left and camera right, shift lens right and camera left, and there will be no parallax when the stop bars are positioned correctly (for which I made a simple spacer for setting up).

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 05, 2013, 09:41:23 am
The attached was shot with a Canon TS-E 17mm f/4L on an EOS 1Ds Mark III.

The 1Ds Mark 3 captures approximately 100 fewer pixels in both height and width dimensions than the 5D Mark III so take that into account.
The full resolution of the three merged frames is 6,790 x 5,576 pixels or 37.861MP

For this photograph, I shot with the lens centered, then shifted left, and then shifted right. Both shifts were to the full limit the lens allowed, approximately 12mm. The central area, the area between the red and blue lines, demarcates the small amount of overlapping data my stitching program (PTGui Pro 9.1.6) would have to work with if I'd only shot the two shifted frames

I know this is not the lens you asked about but think it is a practical example of what you might expect.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 05, 2013, 09:55:35 am
I fully agree with the suggestion of using a panning clamp (the RRS PCL-1) and a nodal slide to increase your capabilities, even if all you are interested in shooting is rectilinear panoramas.

I have also shot panos with the Nikon D800 and D800E, mostly with the 14-24mm f/2.8G, 24-70mm f/2.8G and the  100mm Zeiss Makro .ZF2. Phenomenal quality.

"To do a "perfect" stitch with a shift lens the lens must be stationary and the body shifted."

In theory yes; in practice it depends on the subject and the near/far relationships in the subject - which of course are relative to the focal length of the lens used.

"My reasons are:

- You cannot tilt a standard lens"

Tilting the lens and shooting panoramas produces far more troubles than it is worth in my experience. Shifting the lens and panning around the nodal point can also cause headaches when trying to resolve parallax errors, but once again it depends o nthe subject matter. With typical landscape photography subjects it likely does not generate the same problems that shooting cityscapes and architecture does.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: fike on February 05, 2013, 10:38:55 am
I do a lot of pano work.  I bought and experimented extensively with the 24mm TS-E.  It worked great and I got some really sharp results.  I sold it.

TS lenses are finicky to work with.  Focus and exposure are tricky.  When tilting, manual focus and exposure is a somewhat trial-and-error activity.  Yes, yes, I know that you can calculate most of the parameters and do measurements etc..., but the point is that working with them is complicated and lacks even the most basic level of spontaneity.  I worked extensively with combining tilts, shifts and multi-row panoramas...using a variety of approaches.  It worked, but inconsistently. 

Tilt shift lenses are fabulous and fascinating and can produce amazing results.  But the simple truth today is that for most applications a good wide angle lens on a full-frame camera can do just as well or better.  Throw some basic tripod-mounted panning-stitching into the mix and you can get some fantastic results without all the knobs and experimentation and manual focus and manual exposure and blah blah blah. 

If, as you say, interior photography and architectural photography is your primary purpose, I might relent and say that TS lenses are good for that.  I might also say you could still have results from traditional stitching that are indistinguishable from the TS results. 
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Petrus on February 05, 2013, 12:50:18 pm

"To do a "perfect" stitch with a shift lens the lens must be stationary and the body shifted."

In theory yes; in practice it depends on the subject and the near/far relationships in the subject - which of course are relative to the focal length of the lens used.


Of course, but this is the same thing as using a nodal point head for "conventional" stitch panoramas. Sometimes it is mandatory, sometimes nice to have, sometimes unnecessary, depending on the near-far relationship of objects in the picture.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 05, 2013, 01:05:56 pm
Of course, but this is the same thing as using a nodal point head for "conventional" stitch panoramas. Sometimes it is mandatory, sometimes nice to have, sometimes unnecessary, depending on the near-far relationship of objects in the picture.

I am glad you agree that it is not always necessary that the lens must be stationary and the body shifted to  create a "perfect" stitch with a shift lens the lens must be stationary and the body shifted."

I have thirty-plus years of experience using view cameras. I agree that ideally the PoV (the entrance pupil of the lens)  does not move and the imaging area (whether film or digital capture array) move instead. I'd much rather have tilts and swings and shifts in the imaging plane than in the lens plane.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 05, 2013, 01:20:02 pm
The sample I posted before was actually part of a "daisy" panoramic where I shot with the lens centered and then shifted out and shot additional frames at each rotation click stop. you can see that there are parallax errors but only  at the bottom of the stitched iamge where there is a large near/far relationship  between the railing and the floor.

This gave my client multiple cropping options, The full uncropped image area is  6,826 x 8,730 pixels. A 7,091 x 6,391 pixel (45.24MP) rectangular crop gives me the most satisfying composition.

  I also shot it with a full set of RRS panoramic gear  - the Ultimate-Pro Omni-Pivot Package -- and the lens centered.
Title: For what do you traditional panorama folks use a tilt-shift lens?
Post by: NancyP on February 05, 2013, 02:05:42 pm
Architecture? (shift)
Product shots? (tilt)
Creative focus / blurring? (tilt)
Squeeze a bit more near-field sharpness in for a landscape? (tilt)

I have never used a T/S lens, and I am a little surprised to see it used for standard panoramas. A nodal point rail is a lot cheaper than a T/S lens. I have thought that the "creative focus/ blur" could be useful. Does anyone consider the T/S feature a big plus for nature landscapes?
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Kirk Gittings on February 05, 2013, 02:10:56 pm
Nancy, If I didn't shoot architecture primarily I might not own all the Canon T/Ss. But since I do they make simple stitches extremely quick and easy-even hand held. Though I also own a rail and have it available on shoots, I haven't found I have needed one for the simple flat shift pans I do for clients.
Title: Re: For what do you traditional panorama folks use a tilt-shift lens?
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 05, 2013, 03:59:42 pm

Architecture? (shift)
Sometimes tilt too , but very rarely - at least not for straightforward photography of buildings and structures. It can be useful for some interiors work.

Product shots? (tilt)
Creative focus / blurring? (tilt)


Almost never. I use shift more. For greater depth focus I'll focus stack instead. As a special effect - to isolate  points of focus for example - I use the tools in Photoshop CS6. Same for portraits

Squeeze a bit more near-field sharpness in for a landscape? (tilt)

If necessary, but again focus stacking may give you better resolution of fine details. Of course if it is windy and things are moving or I have to hand hold - tilt!

I have never used a T/S lens, and I am a little surprised to see it used for standard panoramas. A nodal point rail is a lot cheaper than a T/S lens. I have thought that the "creative focus/ blur" could be useful. Does anyone consider the T/S feature a big plus for nature landscapes?

Shift yes, tilt no.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: fike on February 05, 2013, 04:43:57 pm
At one time flat stitches (composites, panoramas whatever) could only be done well with shifting lenses. But with software these days, rotating your camera around the nodal point with a calibrated spherical head can produce results indistinguishable from those made with a flat stitch.  With focus stacking software you can increase depth of field.  With CS6 you can simulate miniaturization effects from aggressive tilt adjustments. 

There is no feature of a tilt shift lens that cannot be replicated with current high quality bodies, lenses, software, and tripod heads.  If you want a TS lens as a way to inspire creativity, go for it. If you think you will create more perfectly sharp images with less fuss, think again. 
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Scott O. on February 06, 2013, 12:14:57 am
Don't know if this helps, but the only portrait pano I have taken with the Nikkor 45mm t/s on a D700 gave me:

3-25mb NEF files, converted to DNG, 3 images of 14mb each.
After stitching and several layers of processing in Photoshop, the final PSD image was 335mb.
And it was really sharp.

Jack Dykinga wrote an article about this technique in Outdoor Photographer several years ago, don't know if it is still available.
Interested if this is along the lines of what others have experienced.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Petrus on February 06, 2013, 01:32:13 am
There is no feature of a tilt shift lens that cannot be replicated with current high quality bodies, lenses, software, and tripod heads.  If you want a TS lens as a way to inspire creativity, go for it. If you think you will create more perfectly sharp images with less fuss, think again. 

Except tilt.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 06, 2013, 04:28:15 am
Except tilt.

Hi,

Tilt can be simulated with software. One starts with an image with enough DOF, create a depth map, and let the software do it's defocusing thing along the gradient of the depth map. The challenge is of course to create a convincing depth map, but it is possible to simulate tilt.

TopazLabs Lenseffects (http://www.topazlabs.com/lenseffects/)
DofPro (http://www.dofpro.com/overview.htm)
Comparing-photoshops-lens-blur-filter-to-a-real-tilt-shift-lens (http://www.thecleverest.com/comparing-photoshops-lens-blur-filter-to-a-real-tilt-shift-lens/)

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Petrus on February 06, 2013, 04:34:44 am
I know it is possible to SIMULATE tilt, but it is not the same thing.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: MrSmith on February 06, 2013, 06:02:56 am
I do a lot of letterbox pano's with the canon tilt shifts and use one of these
http://www.adorama.com/Reviews/pwr/product-reviews/Tripods/Quick-Release-Systems-Plates/Giottos/p/GTMH658-Giottos-MH-658-Quick-Release-Arca-Style-Clamp-Camera-Mounting-System-with-MH-648-Plate.html (http://www.adorama.com/Reviews/pwr/product-reviews/Tripods/Quick-Release-Systems-Plates/Giottos/p/GTMH658-Giottos-MH-658-Quick-Release-Arca-Style-Clamp-Camera-Mounting-System-with-MH-648-Plate.html)

So if there is any foreground detail or furniture in an interior close to the camera I just shift the opposite way the same amount of mm as the lens shift for parallax free stitching. I don't do any portrait stitching, if I did an L-bracket would be handy.
Thought about getting a nodal slide but like the speed of the shift lenses and have an aversion to the distorted look of rotated pano's (not sure of the projection method but I like straight lines not bendy ones)
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: fike on February 06, 2013, 08:32:48 am
...have an aversion to the distorted look of rotated pano's (not sure of the projection method but I like straight lines not bendy ones)

You are picking the wrong projections.  If you are using photoshop's built-in pano stitching tools, you don't have enough control to make things look perfect.  If you have a wide enough field of view, it is impossible (regardless of the lens) to keep all the lines straight.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: fike on February 06, 2013, 08:34:53 am
I know it is possible to SIMULATE tilt, but it is not the same thing.

Perhaps, but software simulations of tilt blur is VERY similar and when done well it is exceedingly difficult to detect. This is similar to saying that stitching panos is not the same thing as a wide angle.  When it is done poorly, you are right.  When it is done well, it is perfect. 
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Petrus on February 06, 2013, 08:48:41 am
Perhaps, but software simulations of tilt blur is VERY similar and when done well it is exceedingly difficult to detect. This is similar to saying that stitching panos is not the same thing as a wide angle.  When it is done poorly, you are right.  When it is done well, it is perfect. 

The difference is that a stitch panorama is perfectly the same as taken with a single shot with the right camera/lens (which might not exist, though), be it rectilinear or cylinder projection, but tilt simulation can not be perfectly done afterwards. Good enough for effect, yes, and good enough to fool a casual viewer who does not know what to expect and look for.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 06, 2013, 09:39:16 am
... tilt simulation can not be perfectly done afterwards. Good enough for effect, yes, and good enough to fool a casual viewer who does not know what to expect and look for.

It seems obvious but how effectively even the best software simulates an optical effect also depends on the reproduction size of the image and the viewing distance, as well as the skills of the person using the software. If you know or suspect computational photography is at work you become much more critical in your viewing. Too much smoothness or the wrong kind of smoothness for example, with not enough irregularities, is a dead give away. It just makes the image not feel right and you feel cheated.   
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ronny Nilsen on February 06, 2013, 09:49:32 am
I've almost all but decided to purchase a 45mm TS-E lens to do landscape work with. I haven't found the answer to a couple of questions and I'm hoping someone might be able to help?

How much resolution gain can be expected from a full shift stitch with the camera in a vertical position on a 5D MKII?

Can a stitch be made without needing the camera to be level to the horizon?

I ask that last question because when I had a RRS Pano stitching kit it always had to be level to the horizon.

I wrote an essay a few year back, and it have table you can use to calculate it.
You can find it here: Build a View Camera with your Canon 5D (http://www.ronnynilsen.com/Essays/Essay/ViewCamera/)

You can make a stitch without needing the camera to be level to the horizon.

Ronny
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: bwana on February 06, 2013, 09:56:21 am
Except tilt.

That's what I was thinking. And in addition, shifting causes light falloff at the edges. Also consider that the flat images from a series with a shift lens when assembled form a polygon. For example, if you shift the lens twice (once in each direction for a single 'flat image) and then you rotate the camera to take three such shifted 'triplets', you end up with 3 flat images and two vertices. Whereas a non shifted lens results in a polygon with more vertices for the same panorama- in the example i just described, there would be 8 vertices. More vertices would seem to make a smoother image when stitched-no?

The tilting effect though is something you cannot really achieve easily in photoshop- focus stacking and then stitching those?!- I am getting a headache.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 06, 2013, 09:57:45 am
Thanks Ronny . It reminds me of one of the reasons I like the classic Arca-Swiss clamping system: modularity and the ability to use different pieces for multiple uses.
Title: Re: tilt-shift lens (tilt) for close-ups
Post by: NancyP on February 06, 2013, 10:41:44 am
I have no experience with T/S lenses and no significant experience with focus stacking (hey, I am learning one software package at a time, and I am still working my way around Lightroom 4 best practices). I have wondered about the utility of T/S, and with the upcoming Samyang 24mm T/S release, there is a less expensive T/S for the amateur masses, including myself. So I am trying to see what T/S can do that can't be done well by software.
I would think that tilt would be handy for close-ups, and that the effect might be somewhat tedious to achieve by focus stacking then selective blurring of the stacked composite. Any subject that is static enough for tilt adjustment and manual focus ought to be static enough for focus stacking and vv.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: HSakols on February 06, 2013, 10:53:11 am
I am curious about using a tilt shift adapter.  What is available for Nikon and Canon? What I miss most about my view camera are tilts, but I'm too cheap to buy a lens that is as expensive as an entire view camera set-up.  It would seem to me that an adapter would work just fine?
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Kirk Gittings on February 06, 2013, 11:27:28 am
Quote
There is no feature of a tilt shift lens that cannot be replicated with current high quality bodies, lenses, software, and tripod heads.  If you want a TS lens as a way to inspire creativity, go for it. If you think you will create more perfectly sharp images with less fuss, think again.

As a practitioner (35 years) of and professor (25 years) teaching architectural photography at two universities I have both participated in the genre from film to digital and been in a position to watch and contribute to people developing their AP skills.

The problem, as I have experienced it, with doing everything like perspective correction in software is one of vision. From what I have experienced personally and with students, the more you can do in camera the stronger things like composition etc. will be. That is why largely, IMO and IME, all of the top APs that I know (and I know a ton worldwide) all use MF cameras with movements and/or DSLRs with T/S lenses.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 06, 2013, 11:51:20 am
Off topic slightly (and I agree with Kirk) but has anyone tried the Lightroom plug-in set "TiltShift Presets?  http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/exchange/index.cfm?event=extensionDetail&loc=en_us&extid=3265522 ?
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Scott Hargis on February 06, 2013, 12:25:00 pm
There is no feature of a tilt shift lens that cannot be replicated with current high quality bodies, lenses, software, and tripod heads.  If you want a TS lens as a way to inspire creativity, go for it. If you think you will create more perfectly sharp images with less fuss, think again. 

You're assuming that everyone only shoots landscapes. For architectural work, you can't really software your way around a shift lens. Yes, there's perspective correction, but you can only stretch pixels so far. I guess it really comes down to the level of IQ you can live with. If I were to manipulate perspective on files from my 5DmII to replicate what I can achieve with a TS lens, I might end up with a file that's about as good as what I used to get with my classic 5D (about 12MP). Which no longer seems acceptable to me.

Someday we'll have sensors of such quality that we'll only need to own one lens, maybe a 10mm. Everything will be cropped and digitally manipulated from that!

Or maybe not. I sort of hope not.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Petrus on February 06, 2013, 01:34:27 pm
When I wrote that shift can be done in software (either stitching or perspective control by warping) I meant that identical projection can be done that way, but naturally the IQ will suffer if we start stretching a single frame. With stitching we might (will...) get better IQ than what we get from shift lens. When taking a picture all 3D information is lost and we can not exactly replicate the effect a tilt lens would have had because the captured projection would have been different with a tilted lens. With shift we are using the same projection but just extending it (or recalculating it when doing rectilinear stitch), but software manipulated fake tilt does not have the same projection parameters as a real tilt photo, as the lens plane is not the same and there is not 3D information in the picture to synthesize it perfectly.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 06, 2013, 01:52:34 pm
Quote
When I wrote that shift can be done in software...

What you are referring to is changing the apparent convergence angle of parallel lines.

with a camera this is accomplished by changing the angular  relationship between  between  the planes of the subject and the film/sensor. Software does this by shifting data points and interpolation, either creating new data points between the existing ones or eliminating existing ones,   

What lens (front) or film/sensor (rear) shift does cannot be emulated by software as by physically moving  the lens or the film/sensor moves the lens axis from the center of the frame,   changing what part of the subject is  framed on the recording medium.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: John Rodriguez on February 06, 2013, 02:41:13 pm
There is no feature of a tilt shift lens that cannot be replicated with current high quality bodies, lenses, software, and tripod heads.  If you want a TS lens as a way to inspire creativity, go for it. If you think you will create more perfectly sharp images with less fuss, think again. 

You can fake tilt DEfocus, but you can't fake tilt focus with a single shot.  You also can't fake shift in software with a single shot, and in some cases you can't at all (lenses only go so wide).  The best answer is to use whatever tool is necessary for the situation. If you don't have things changing in frame then a pano head + focus stitching makes sense.  If things are changing then a T/S is the way to go.  If you already own T/S lenses then you can do shift panos, with the trade-off of lack of "un-distorting processing" resolution loss vs "edge of lens coverage" resolution loss. I'd prefer to have T/S lenses AND a pano head.  If I could only have one I'd take the T/S lenses - at least you can always get the single shot.

T/S in landscape shots: Personally I use rise on at least 50% of my landscape shots (I shoot a lot of trees).  I use tilt less often, but often enough to know I need it.  After shooting field view cameras the geared DSLR T/S lenses are pretty quick/easy to use.

T/S adapters - I'm aware of Mirex, Harblei (not available anymore that I can tell except Ebay) and Kipon.  There are wide-angle limitations. From what I can tell all have the same issue as the PC-Es, shift + tilt OR rise/fall + swing.  Not a big deal to me, as I rarely really NEED to use rise and tilt or rise and shift or tilt and swing (never) at the same time, but an issue for some folks.

Metering T/S shots - metering seems fine using the Nikon PC-Es on a D800e tilted and shifted, however I often still use a dedicated spot meter. 

Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Petrus on February 06, 2013, 03:12:06 pm
What lens (front) or film/sensor (rear) shift does cannot be emulated by software as by physically moving  the lens or the film/sensor moves the lens axis from the center of the frame,   changing what part of the subject is  framed on the recording medium.

I'll try to go through this once more: Let's compare a single shifted shot taken with a TS lens or technical camera against a rectilinear stitch panorama and a perspective corrected single shot taken with a tilted camera.

It is the position, aim and focal length of the lens which determines the geometry of the picture (assuming no tilt). Taking several shots with a longer lens and stitching them as a rectilinear composite can be made identical to that first shift picture (I am talking only geometry, not IQ), if the position of the front nodal point of the lens is identical. That is important. Same thing with a tilted single shot which is corrected in software, as long as the angle is wide enough to have room for the correction. Out of these three methods the stitch will give the best IQ if we are using the same camera and the lenses have identical IQ.

If you mean that we first take a normal shot with T/S lens and do a stitch from the same position, they are identical. Then we shift the lens, take a shot and compare with the said stitch photo. Of course they are not identical anymore, as the position of the lens is not identical anymore. If we shift the back, not lens, they remain identical after framing is adjusted.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 06, 2013, 04:08:19 pm
Petrus we are discussing different things.

"If you mean that we first take a normal shot with T/S lens and do a stitch from the same position, they are identical. Then we shift the lens, take a shot and compare with the said stitch photo. Of course they are not identical anymore, as the position of the lens is not identical anymore. If we shift the back, not lens, they remain identical after framing is adjusted."

No I meant what I said. Shifting a lens vertically, laterally or to some intermediate angle  changes the angle of view framed by the recording medium. Lenses with shift function project a relatively large diameter image circle - shifting the position of the lens or the recording medium changes the portion  of the image circle framed by the edges of the media.  Pointing the camera in a different direction has the same effect. This is simple geometry and has nothing all to do with stitching multiple frames together. Tilting the lens or the film/sensor plane can change the framing of the subject as well.
Title: Re: tilt-shift lens - will try to rent one for a weekend
Post by: NancyP on February 06, 2013, 04:48:16 pm
My local camera store has or used to have a Canon TS lens for rent. If it is still around, I am now curious enough to give it a try. I have the feeling that no amount of blog perusing will help me see if TS is something I may want to use more often.  :-\
Title: Re: tilt-shift lens - will try to rent one for a weekend
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 06, 2013, 04:50:17 pm
My local camera store has or used to have a Canon TS lens for rent. If it is still around, I am now curious enough to give it a try. I have the feeling that no amount of blog perusing will help me see if TS is something I may want to use more often.  :-\
"One test is worth a thousand internet thread postings by a bunch of opinionated old guys." (he said while looking at his reflection in a mirror  ;D )
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 06, 2013, 09:00:09 pm
Someday we'll have sensors of such quality that we'll only need to own one lens, maybe a 10mm. Everything will be cropped and digitally manipulated from that!

Physics rears its ugly head, in the form of diffraction.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Scott Hargis on February 06, 2013, 09:12:47 pm
I always hated physics.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 06, 2013, 09:20:20 pm
I always hated physics.
"Physics. Why does it always have to be physics?"  ;D
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 06, 2013, 09:33:13 pm
"Physics. Why does it always have to be physics?"  ;D

I was a Physics major at Stanford for two and a half years before I switched to Electrical Engineering. I don't like it any better than you do.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 06, 2013, 10:41:28 pm
The biggest issues to me seem to be parallax and lens edge performance. How close does a foreground subject really have to be before parallax becomes and issue? I would have thought the 50% overlap from the three shots would be enough to prevent this.

The corner performance there is obviously no way around. I can't test one of these lenses so I can't be sure how bad it really is.

On a different note, we have the ability to stitch to create higher megapixel images, is there a method to increase the tonality of a DSLR? I love the smoothness of tones medium format film and digital have.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: John Rodriguez on February 06, 2013, 11:27:52 pm
The biggest issues to me seem to be parallax and lens edge performance. How close does a foreground subject really have to be before parallax becomes and issue? I would have thought the 50% overlap from the three shots would be enough to prevent this.

The corner performance there is obviously no way around. I can't test one of these lenses so I can't be sure how bad it really is.

On a different note, we have the ability to stitch to create higher megapixel images, is there a method to increase the tonality of a DSLR? I love the smoothness of tones medium format film and digital have.

To avoid parallax issues with shift panoramas you can use a nodal slide and move the camera back the same number of mms you shift the lens.  

As fars as increasing "tonality", what I think you're referring to are the levels of gradation the sensor can display.  Medium format cameras are usually 16 bit, while DSLRs are generally 12 or 14 bit. Stitching doesn't increase bit depth.  Film isn't binary.  If you want absolute maximum separation of tones and tilt shift lenses, buy a view camera and a freezer full of E6.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Jim Kasson on February 06, 2013, 11:47:19 pm
On a different note, we have the ability to stitch to create higher megapixel images, is there a method to increase the tonality of a DSLR? I love the smoothness of tones medium format film and digital have.

We can make the sensor bigger, but you want to keep the sensor size to 24x36mm, right? We could make the photosites bigger, but that's fewer pixels total. We can't do much about photon noise; that's more inconvenient physics. We could increase the exposure to get more photons, and thereby increase the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) by a factor of 1.4 for every stop. But then we'll blow out the highlights. So maybe we can make a series of exposures a stop or two apart, and use the high SNR data from each to create a high SNR composite image. Oh, wait; that sounds familiar. They call it HDR. You can get some really unnatural images that way. But what if you used the technique just to improve the SNR on subjects of normal dynamic range?

OTOH, this could be one of those be careful what you wish for things. You've already said your exposures are uncomfortably long, and this will add longer ones. You'll have to decide, composite the exposures first and then stitch, or the other way round (I recommend the former). If you do focus bracketing, there will be a bunch more exposures. A lot to keep track during the shoot. A lot to keep track of after the shoot. A lot of opportunity for error. Hmm...
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Petrus on February 07, 2013, 12:14:34 am
On a different note, we have the ability to stitch to create higher megapixel images, is there a method to increase the tonality of a DSLR? I love the smoothness of tones medium format film and digital have.

As far as I know the best digital sensors (did somebody whisper "D800"?) far surpass the dynamic range of film, and there is no lack of smoothness.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 07, 2013, 12:21:37 am
Jim, I would like to keep the sensor 24x36mm for price reasons. So you're saying maybe 3 half stop increments in exposure, then stacked might create a smoother tonality? I have seen the same sort of thing done to reduce noise in an image.

Petrus, personally I find the DSLR images to be crunchy and lack the three dimensionality of film images. Have a look at some of the photos in this collection by Hin Chau http://www.hinius.net/atf.php (http://www.hinius.net/atf.php). I believe he was using a Mamiya 7 II. Or am I seeing something else?

Here's a link to one in particular http://blinding.slideshowpro.com/albums/001/390/album-122821/cache/Shanghai-18-4445-03.sjpg_800_640_0_90_0_50_50.sjpg?1360205836
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: John Rodriguez on February 07, 2013, 12:25:39 am
As far as I know the best digital sensors (did somebody whisper "D800"?) far surpass the dynamic range of film, and there is no lack of smoothness.

I own a D800e and a 4x5.  I can get more range with Portra 160 or 400 then I can get with the D800.  The dynamic range numbers tossed around DSLRs is a bit of a misnomer.  Yes you can recover a lot of detail in the shadows shooting RAW, but you generally don't want to use all of it if your goal is a really good large print as there isn't much tonal separation down there.  I find the D800 closer to E6 in terms of usable range.  In terms of gradation of tones, E6 shows more tonal variation, there's no doubt.  In my opinion the D800 looks closer to C41 in that regard.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 07, 2013, 12:27:22 am
I haven't seen a test comparing the D800 sensors tonal separation with MFD, it's generally always about resolution. I'd be interested to see how they compare.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: John Rodriguez on February 07, 2013, 12:35:23 am
Jim, I would like to keep the sensor 24x36mm for price reasons. So you're saying maybe 3 half stop increments in exposure, then stacked might create a smoother tonality? I have seen the same sort of thing done to reduce noise in an image.

Petrus, personally I find the DSLR images to be crunchy and lack the three dimensionality of film images. Have a look at some of the photos in this collection by Hin Chau http://www.hinius.net/atf.php (http://www.hinius.net/atf.php). I believe he was using a Mamiya 7 II. Or am I seeing something else?

Here's a link to one in particular http://blinding.slideshowpro.com/albums/001/390/album-122821/cache/Shanghai-18-4445-03.sjpg_800_640_0_90_0_50_50.sjpg?1360205836

I think you're seeing something else, unless you're actually looking at the prints themselves. Fine tonal gradation isn't something that really shows up on a 600 pixel sRGB image.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 07, 2013, 03:05:58 am
That is a good point. If the 'look' I'm seeing is not to do with the tonality, I'd be curious to find out what it is.

This series of photos also has the 'look' that I'm talking about:

http://www.koxvold.com/projects/los-angeles-river/

There is a smoothness and three dimensionally to the images.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 07, 2013, 03:11:27 am
This series has the 'look' very strongly:

http://www.koxvold.com/projects/uae/

Or am I just looking at a certain type of film?
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 07, 2013, 05:48:19 am
Shifting a lens vertically, laterally or to some intermediate angle  changes the angle of view framed by the recording medium. Lenses with shift function project a relatively large diameter image circle - shifting the position of the lens or the recording medium changes the portion  of the image circle framed by the edges of the media.  Pointing the camera in a different direction has the same effect. This is simple geometry and has nothing all to do with stitching multiple frames together. Tilting the lens or the film/sensor plane can change the framing of the subject as well.

Hi Ellis,

That's correct, unless one offsets the displacement of the entrance pupil by a counter movement of the whole camera+lens. That's what the setup that I posted a picture of earlier in this thread achieves. It compensates for the horizontal lens shift, a common setup e.g. for landscape photography with some downward tilt included.

Indeed, tilting the lens will also introduce an offset, but it's only relevant if the amount of tilt is changed between shots, and the amount of off-axis displacement can be relatively limited, and can sometimes be hidden in the overlap blend. On my 1Ds3, the TS/E 45mm e.g. shifts the image center projection roughly 37.5 pixels (0.24 mm) per degree, the TS/E 90mm some 13.8 pixels (0.09 mm) per degree, and the TS/E 24mm II some 36.1 pixels (0.23 mm) per degree of tilt.

A good panorama stitcher can include these offsets (if not already compensated for when shooting) for an improved registration of the image tiles in a rotational stitch, but if only pre-compensated lens shifts are involved then stitching becomes basically simple overlaying of shifted images, even Photoshop can manage that.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 07, 2013, 05:57:18 am
Jim, I would like to keep the sensor 24x36mm for price reasons. So you're saying maybe 3 half stop increments in exposure, then stacked might create a smoother tonality? I have seen the same sort of thing done to reduce noise in an image.

Hi,

All it takes is an average of multiple identical exposures (which obviously works best with stationary subjects). The photon shot noise will be reduced by a factor of 1/sqrt(N), where N is the number of exposures. So 4 exposures will already reduce the noise to half of that in a single exposure, and the signal to noise ratio (SNR) will double.

Of course the shadows could benefit from more photons, to improve tonality, and there exposure blending or HDR compositing may help as well. Using 3 bracketed exposures 0, +1, +2 EV will improve the shadows at least as much as 4 averaged exposures do, but the highlights will not improve if the +0 EV exposure was already 'exposed to the right'. Averaging is used a lot in astrophotography, for a reason ..., the SNR of all levels of brightness improves (with good registration).

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 07, 2013, 07:55:03 am
That's very interesting Bart. How would the 3 exposures be combined? Is it a simple matter of layering them in Photoshop and setting the opacity to 33%, 66% and 100% respectively?
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 07, 2013, 09:12:46 am
This series has the 'look' very strongly:

http://www.koxvold.com/projects/uae/

Or am I just looking at a certain type of film?
It is scanned color negative film or possibly scanned prints made mostly from color negative film. The areas where I'd expect to see black or virtual black look more like they have higher values than that and the contrast throughout is fairly low, even on images that were clearly shot in midday light on sunny days.

I like his compositions and his ability to convey a certain emotional power (aloneness, without joy or irony) he has created in his landscapes and cityscapes. That is hard to sustain.   His portraits? While they are also well crafted, the emotional and aesthetic flatness is not my cup of tea or coffee.
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 07, 2013, 09:14:33 am
That's very interesting Bart. How would the 3 exposures be combined? Is it a simple matter of layering them in Photoshop and setting the opacity to 33%, 66% and 100% respectively?

If you use Lightroom try the Enfuse plug in from Timothy Armes: http://www.photographers-toolbox.com/products/lrenfuse.php
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: John Rodriguez on February 07, 2013, 10:08:01 am
As Ellis pointed out, he's shooting negative film.  You can try and replicate the response curves in processing. Try separate RGB curves in color mode to get the balance and one RGB combined curve in normal mode to emulate the luminosity/saturation.  There are also plugins you can try.  To replicate some of his images you might need to do some exposure blending where the usable dynamic range of C41 is larger then your sensor.  You likely wouldn't be able to get a color 100% match, as in some cases a film may separate colors that a sensor sees as the same, but you could definitely get it in the ballpark. Tim Parkin has some interesting articles about trying to replicate film that are worth a read.  He's mostly trying to replicate Velvia 50, but overall the problems are the same.  However, they're mostly color related, the contrast curves should be easier to emulate.

http://www.timparkin.co.uk/2012/08/why-you-cant-make-digital-look-like-velvia-50/

http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2012/08/film-emulation-software/
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Ellis Vener on February 07, 2013, 10:15:31 am
Lee Varis has some interesting if very work intensive approaches to controlling color in his "10 channel color" (really it is  6 channels: RGB+ A & B from LAB + blacK from CMYK) workflow . Look up Lee Varis on Vimeo.com and then search inside them for "10 Channel Color Workflow." There are 4 videos.

Varis is using  color to create a heightened sense of depth  and then intensifying color  but the skeleton of his technique can be used to control color anyway you want to. Did I mention that it is work intensive?
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 07, 2013, 11:14:57 am
That's very interesting Bart. How would the 3 exposures be combined? Is it a simple matter of layering them in Photoshop and setting the opacity to 33%, 66% and 100% respectively?

Hi,

Either that, or you could try something like 40%, 60% and 100% because we're probably using gamma adjusted images at this stage. Alternatively you can use the Layer's Blend If functionality, targeting the shadows in the +2 EV layer, the Mid-tones in the +1 EV layer, but the individual layer exposures must also be adjusted if they are different.

But the correct way of combining multiple different exposure times would be to use a dedicated application that does exposure blending, or one that assembles an HDR image, e.g. Photoshop's  File|Automate|HDR merge Pro, for further tonemapping.

For the combination of multiple equal exposures one can use Photoshop Extended's Stack functionality: Layer|Smart Objects|Stack mode|Average.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: leuallen on February 07, 2013, 11:56:28 am
Ellis, I have used Lee 10 channel method and have one of his books. I found the technique very interesting. The work intensive part can be reduced by creating some PS actions to create the LAB and CYMK  files. I've found his technique of using the black CYMK channel to reduce the saturation of the shadows to be useful.

Larry
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: John Rodriguez on February 07, 2013, 12:19:18 pm
Dan Margulis is a good read as well.  He goes in depth into each color space.  Learning how to recognize each color channel just by looking at it was a real eye opener. 
Title: Re: Stitching with a tilt-shift lens
Post by: pjtn on February 07, 2013, 06:05:51 pm
Wow, lots to take in here. I tried Googling to find answers but certainly found nothing like what I've been given here.