Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Jim Cole on January 25, 2013, 07:07:58 pm
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This thread is a spin-off of another I started here while trying to profile Lyve canvas on mt Z3100 with APS:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=74537.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=74537.0)
I've determined that the issue lies with the color sensor. The ESP diagnostic failed twice.
Has anyone here changed out the sensor? Is it possible that the sensor is dirty rather than failed? In other words, cleaning or replacement?
Any help would be appreciated.
Jim
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the i1 is expensive in the z3100, i guess since i had the z6100 which they share the same sensor (so does the z3200 and z6200)
you can call HP to see how much it is. IF you only have 1 printer, z3100, then you might want to just change the senor and keep it goes, but if you have few printers, maybe it's time for you to consider to get a external i1pro.
I've ESP problem b4 and the guy came in and did something on it. but i don't think he changed the sensor at all.
aaron
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Jim, how old are the print heads? I was getting repeated sensor errors a few months ago, and I replaced the print heads and never had an issue since. Just a thought.
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Hi Aaron,
I've only got the one printer. I found the ESP for $329 shipped and I should be able to replace it myself. It's almost 6 years old, so I can't complain.
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Jim, how old are the print heads? I was getting repeated sensor errors a few months ago, and I replaced the print heads and never had an issue since. Just a thought.
Hi,
Thanks for your reply. I've only ever replaced the mk/rd head. All the others are still original, going on six years old. Curious that new print heads solved a sensor error. Couldyou tell me when were you getting these errors? My Z has never given me an ESP (#58) error unless I run the ESP diagnostic. My profiling and calibration function as if nothing is wrong, which is kind of wierd if the sensor is failing.
Jim
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Jim,
I have my doubts about the ESP diagnostic too. On both my printers the ESP check ends in an error but both calibration and profiling goes well for papers. It is possible that HP considers other factors than the spectrometer condition too in that diagnose.
That said I never profile canvas on the machine itself but use an Eye 1 Pro for the task. For more reasons, my profiling is done with the varnish applied and that is simply more difficult in handling on the printers and my best guess the printer's spectrometer is not really up to that task either, read further on. When I replaced belts on both machines and a head carriage board on the Z3200 there was time to check the spectrometer part too for the sliding door and the optics. I did not see problems there. On the inside of the sliding door there must be a white calibration patch and that could have changed properties but I did not take that one out in fear of breaking the part. Replacing the spectrometer part is not difficult when you ever have done a belt replacement, I think you can not access that part without removing the head carriage from the printer.
Essentially the Z's spectrometer is more like the Isis or Munki one. A white LED is used as I understand it and the Eye 1 Pro uses a tungsten lamp. I also think ( based on the cleaning of the parts) that where the Eye 1 Pro has lighting in a 45° cone shape, the Z spectro has a single light source point at 45°. A lot can be compensated by multiple readings per patch on an irregular texture but not all, the more when the irregular surface is varnished and has some regular pattern like in canvas. I know the spectrometer is allowed to make longer readings on dark patches and given the large size of the individual patches multiple readings should be easy but it is still not ideal.
If your measurements are alright for papers then I would not go the route of replacing the color sensor but get a separate colori- or spectrometer that can make good profiles on canvas. Averaging some measurements is even then a good approach as canvas can be tricky. Measuring of fabrics is often done with spectrometers that have a wider sensor opening, an Ulbricht sphere lighting improves on that. I do not know whether the Color Munki can average with its normal software but it must possible with ArgyllCMS. The iterative system of the normal X-rite software is not ideal either for canvas in my (theoretical :-) opinion, for the reasons sketched above, building extra information with a second measurement on top of the first one is good when both measurements are consistent, hard to get that condition on canvas. It will ask for a much longer process too as the second target has to be made (including varnishing) with the information from the first measurements.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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Ernst,
Thanks for the informative reply. Interesting about your experience with the ESP failing during diagnostics, but not during profiling. I think I'm going to run another profile of a different paper and see if it's working OK. If so, then this is an issue with profiling the canvas and nothing more. I'll keep my fingers crossed for that outcome and I do not savor pulling my machine apart.
Pending the outcome of that experiment, I'll assume that my spectrometer is fine and that if I want to use canvas (I really don't) I'll need and Eye 1 Pro. Expensive little kit! Do I need the basic or the photo version? Looks like the photo version is the one that mentions profiling printers. Ouch, $1150! Is this iteration process you mentioned described in the Eye 1 users manual or is this something that has to be "figured out"?
Thanks again for your usually great help,
Jim
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Jim,
The iterative profiling measurement is part of the Color Munki spectrometer software and one uses it to improve the normal profiling results while the target patches number can be kept low. The meter is not that fast so a lower patch number counts. There is software for iterative profiling with other spectrometers but used for other reasons. I do not recommend iterative profiling for canvas but you can use the Munki with other software like ArgyllCMS to create good profiles, more patches will be needed but do not overdo that. I have an Eye 1 Basic (not UV-cut) + some older software and ArgyllCMS, mainly for my paper white measurements but also for this kind of jobs and creating curves + profiles for custom quad solutions. A separate spectrometer is a very nice instrument to get answers on so many things, my old Spectrocam died so I had to get another UV enabled spectrometer.
Keith has a good article on the Color Munki:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/profiling/colormunki.html
There are more Z users that have the ESP diagnostic test failing while the ESP works in practice.
--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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ERnst,
Thanks for the additional information. I think I confused myself a little in reading your post.
Bottom line, for profiling canvas, would you recommend the Colr Munki or the Eye 1? If the Eye 1, is the UV-cut critical?
Thanks and as always, your help is greatly appreciated.
Jim
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The i1 Pro 2 is today's best choice and it has two light sources integrated so can do both UV enabled and UV cut.
Ernst, op de lei getypt.
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Perfect, thanks! I just posted an update in the Lyve profiling thread after finding that my spectrometer is functioning fine after profiling another paper.
Jim
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Add one more to the list. I'm able to successfully profile and calibrate with my Z3100, but it fails the ESP diagnostic test.
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Colorwave,
How about that, huh? It's probably an HP ploy to sell spectrometers. ;)
I was getting all hyper about having to disassemble my printer. I think I'm going to have to anyway as my belt is finally showing signs of disintegration. >:(
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I highly recommend performing the belt change at the first sign of loose material coming off of it. It is not worth the hassle of having to touch up white spots, and a somewhat lengthy but not difficult process to do yourself. I also suggest replacing it with a polyurethane after market belt that I've been very happy with, which I expect to last much longer than HP's lousy OEM one.
http://www.lpscomputer.com/p-3140-q6659-60175-designjet-z2100-z3100-z3200-44-size-carriage-belt.aspx
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I highly recommend performing the belt change at the first sign of loose material coming off of it. It is not worth the hassle of having to touch up white spots, and a somewhat lengthy but not difficult process to do yourself. I also suggest replacing it with a polyurethane after market belt that I've been very happy with, which I expect to last much longer than HP's lousy OEM one.
http://www.lpscomputer.com/p-3140-q6659-60175-designjet-z2100-z3100-z3200-44-size-carriage-belt.aspx
Hey Ron,
Thanks for the link. I bought that belt about a year ago. I'm ready to go!
Jim
I edit this post. I didn't read the fine print on the link you attached.
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No, they only look the same at first glance. Here's one of the links from the other page I pointed you toward: http://www.lpscomputer.com/t-BeltComparison.aspx
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Thanks, Ron. I edited my previous post hoping you hadn't seen it yet. Yes, I bought one of those last year. I'm ready to go.
Thanks again,
Jim
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No worries, Jim. From inspecting one of the HP belts (in a second printer that is now my part mule), I think the fiber reinforcement in the OEM belt is nylon. Sitting idle for over a year, that second printer's belt turned to chalk, and pretty much fell off of the fiber reinforcement. They decompose from both time and use.
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Thanks for your reply. I've only ever replaced the mk/rd head. All the others are still original, going on six years old. Curious that new print heads solved a sensor error.
If I remember correctly, I was getting scanner errors when profiling. Normally I profile with APS which can be finicky. So I tried Color Center and got the same error.
I then went though a process of cheapest/easiest solution that could fix the problem. When the scanner reads a pattern, it is expecting things to be in a particular place and look a particular way. So a print head alignment issues or something related could have caused the problem.
I when through ink purge, print head cleaning, print head alligntment etc., with no success. Next step was to replace the full set of print heads. If I recall, this cost me about 500bucks, and after that, have not had an issue.
Again, depending on when you're getting the scanner error this may be the issue. At the very least, pop them out and reseat them.
God luck.
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If I remember correctly, I was getting scanner errors when profiling. Normally I profile with APS which can be finicky. So I tried Color Center and got the same error.
I then went though a process of cheapest/easiest solution that could fix the problem. When the scanner reads a pattern, it is expecting things to be in a particular place and look a particular way. So a print head alignment issues or something related could have caused the problem.
I when through ink purge, print head cleaning, print head alligntment etc., with no success. Next step was to replace the full set of print heads. If I recall, this cost me about 500bucks, and after that, have not had an issue.
Again, depending on when you're getting the scanner error this may be the issue. At the very least, pop them out and reseat them.
God luck.
Thanks for the follow-up. I never got any scanner errors. It was only when I ran the ESP diagnostic that I had any indication that something was wrong with the sensor, and that turned out to be a false indicator.
I think the Z spectrometer has a hard time with canvas, nothing more.
Jim
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I think the Z spectrometer has a hard time with canvas, nothing more.
Jim
That is very possible. I recently purchased Image Print 9 for my Epson 3880 and it is quickly becoming a secondary check for how good the APS profiles are. In some cases, I prefer the APS profiles to IP. Last night I got some Lyve Canvas, and tried a few presets and eventually settled on the "generic canvas" setting, and it looks beautiful. I normally try 2-3 different presets and one of them is clearly better. The Z3100, when things go well is stellar. problem is that it has been a love/hate relationship. Add the HP support and apple doing all kinds of funky things with permissions etc., the experience is not what I'd expected.
One other thing that I find quite troubling is the soft-profing in CS6. It is not in any way reliable. The normal gamut warnings are far too conservative. Not sure if others are seeing this as well.
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Hi again,
I'll try making another profile using the generic canvas preset before I start working with the second print I need to do and see if it comes any closer. Thanks for the tip. I have to wait a few days until a new 17" roll of Lyve shows up to play on.
As far as soft proofing goes, I gave up on that years ago. Every new version of Photoshop that comes out gets a few tries to see if it's any more useful than the previous version, and it never is. Saturation has always been too conservative. It will give you an idea of where to look for issues on a test print, but that's about it. I never make changes to my master file based on soft proofing.
Cheers!
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Hi again,
I'll try making another profile using the generic canvas preset before I start working with the second print I need to do and see if it comes any closer. Thanks for the tip. I have to wait a few days until a new 17" roll of Lyve shows up to play on.
Cheers!
If you like, you can mail me a file and profile and I'll be happy print and return to you. I can also send you the .oms and profile on mine for Lyve Matte and see how that works for you. I'm heading to Sweden today and will be back Friday.
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If you like, you can mail me a file and profile and I'll be happy print and return to you. I can also send you the .oms and profile on mine for Lyve Matte and see how that works for you. I'm heading to Sweden today and will be back Friday.
PM sent.
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Mine fails the diagnostic as well but it can profile well enough for me to not try to see if I can 'fix' it.
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Good to know, Tony, thanks. I ran mine again and it failed again. Not sure what the deal is with that test.
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It would appear that the acronym was intended to stand for Extra Sensor Purchases.
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Good one, Ron.
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I have never yet heard of a z3100 passing the ESP diagnostic test, I have a theory that it might be be a result of firmware updates.
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First rule of firmware updates:
Don't fix anything without breaking something else.