Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Camera Raw Q&A => Topic started by: sanfairyanne on January 12, 2013, 08:54:40 pm
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I'll try to word this as best I can.
If I open a RAW file to ACR I have the option of immediately opening it in Photoshop without making any edits. For example I could do dust removal in Photoshop or ACR.
So my questions are what is the difference if any.
Thanks
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Buy the videos (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/CR_1.shtml) and find out, I did.
Cheers,
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Actually about two years ago I did buy an ACR video on this site but was very disappointed. I felt I was just watching two guys congratulating all the software guys on what a good job they'd done. I don't think I even bothered to watch it all.
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Sounds like a case where one needs to learn to walk first, before attempting to run?
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So my questions are what is the difference if any.
"The basic philosophy is to let Camera Raw perform those operations that are best done on the raw image. If you just use Camera Raw at default settings to open images in Photoshop, then make all your adjustments there, you’re making extra work for yourself, and almost certainly not getting the best possible results. The fundamental difference between editing in Camera Raw and editing in Photoshop is that in the former, you’re editing the conversion from the raw to a rendered image, while in the latter you’re simply moving levels around in an already-rendered image."
pdf file -- Technical paper, "Understanding Adobe Camera Raw 3 (http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/phscs2ip_camraw3.pdf)", Bruce Fraser, 2006, page 4
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If I open a RAW file to ACR I have the option of immediately opening it in Photoshop without making any edits. For example I could do dust removal in Photoshop or ACR.
So my questions are what is the difference if any.
Regarding spotting, the level of control and the variety of tools is greater in PS. The spotting tool in ACR is good for spotting flaws that reside in areas of little or no texture.
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Regarding spotting, the level of control and the variety of tools is greater in PS. The spotting tool in ACR is good for spotting flaws that reside in areas of little or no texture.
You can switch to "Clone" for doing pattern work. Healing works well on random skin texture patterns.
I do most of all my edits in ACR. I use Photoshop's Warp tool for fixing wide angle lens distortion and Selection and Crop tool for filling in empty patches along the periphery of the image the Warp tool creates.
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Thanks to all. I printed out the Understanding ACR 3 pdf and will read that. I do have the 7 hour video back on my computer at home and must watch it even if I am put off a bit by the big guys Hawaii shirt.
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I printed out the Understanding ACR 3 pdf and will read that.
Please read and then put aside because it's out of date.
Please use the update mechanism in Photoshop to get Camera Raw 7.2 -- and then read the "Tonal Adjustments in the Age of Lightroom 4" (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/techniques/tonal_adjustments_in_the_age_of_lightroom_4.shtml) article (the ACR and Lightroom tools are much the same).
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Basically, the difference is that doing edits in ACR(or Light Room) on RAW FILES, is that you are doing non destructive editing on metadata. Once the file has been rendered into PS you are working on pixels and data is lost once you close the file. If you edit RAW in ACR, you can always go back to make further edits because until you open the file up in PS, you are not doing pixel damage, only edits to a set of instructions.
If you are shooting jpegs,(both ACR & LR can work on jpegs) then you image has already been rendered and any edits you make will be just as if ther were in PS.
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Just one quick thought. I read Understanding ACR 3, realized it was of course out of date but my main query is sort of answered in that pdf. It suggests you need to decide where to save your edits with two choices:
# The Camera Raw database
# Sidecar xmp files
Can an xmp file save the workflow edits, can I for instance go back through the workflow and correct for a part of the work. Say perhaps you produced an image then a week later decided you had made too big a crop could you go back.
Or does the xmp file only hold the final edit and the exif data.
If I can clear this up I will be a lot wiser.
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The XMP halds all the edits you've done in raw, if you click back on the crop tool the original full image is visible so you can make changes.
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If I can clear this up I will be a lot wiser.
Frankly, you sound like someone who should be using Lightroom ...
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Couple of statements are these correct:
The moment the file goes to Photoshop it's no longer a RAW file.
Therefore none of the edits from ACR can be changed.
Is this true.
And Sniper you think I should be using Lightroom. Personally I think I should be using a box brownie.
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Couple of statements are these correct:
The moment the file goes to Photoshop it's no longer a RAW file.
Therefore none of the edits from ACR can be changed.
Is this true.
And Sniper you think I should be using Lightroom. Personally I think I should be using a box brownie.
As far as the preview is concerned it's the same Raw file only now the pixels you're working on will change differently by appearance compared to working in ACR due to the tools in Photoshop are now working on gamma encoded pixels.
In ACR the tools behave as seen through the preview in a linear gamma space as close as possible to the original sensor data after demosaicing except the edits are written as instructions where as Photoshop edits are acting directly on the pixel preview data that finally gets written to tiff or jpeg format after saving to the hard drive.
You can see the tonal edit behavior applying Exposure, Contrast and Brightness edits in ACR which is much more smoother allowing more refined tweaks than applying similar edits using Levels and other Photoshop slider based tools which tend to create jumpy responses in previews by comparison (note Hue/Sat tools). This is one of the main reasons I try to do all edits in ACR.
For me applying edits in ACR is similar to tweaking a multi-band EQ on expensive audio equipment where Photoshop acts more like tweaking EQ in iTunes.
You need to work with ACR for a while to get a sense of what I'm talking about.
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Therefore none of the edits from ACR can be changed.
No -- as-long-as you don't overwrite the original RAW file, you can go-back and open-as RAW with the ACR processing-instructions previously saved in the XMP file, and then you can change those ACR processing-instructions, and then open in Photoshop again.
...you think I should be using Lightroom...
Unless your interest is selections for composite images, I'd say Lightroom is a better tool for straightforward photo processing than the semi-integrated combination of ACR and Photoshop.
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Sniper,
Please can you give me a quick step by step route through that process because I just need to see how to access that history. I really like the potential to learn ACR but what scares me is that I might spend an hour processing an image in ACR then work on it in Photoshop only to realize I missed some part of the earlier ACR processing.
If you can just guide me through a simple process say for arguments sake:
Open in ACR>WB adjust>exposure adjust>open in Photoshop>crop>work in Layers > save as??? and from there the way in which I would reopen the image and re-adjust the WB.
Sorry to sound like the class idiot you guys are being very patient.
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After readjusting the WB in ACR and opening in Photoshop, re-open the saved layered tiff, select all on the Raw file>copy and paste as a layer on the tiff. Re-save tiff. Done.
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From ACR, open your photo in PS as a Smart Object. From PS, you can then easily go back to ACR to make further edits, then back to PS again.
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Once the file has been rendered into PS you are working on pixels and data is lost once you close the file.
Not if you work with layers.
If you edit RAW in ACR, you can always go back to make further edits because until you open the file up in PS, you are not doing pixel damage, only edits to a set of instructions.
Even after you open the file in PS if you open it as a Smart Object.
If you are shooting jpegs,(both ACR & LR can work on jpegs) then you image has already been rendered and any edits you make will be just as if ther were in PS.
Not correct.
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I do have the 7 hour video back on my computer at home and must watch it even if I am put off a bit by the big guys Hawaii shirt.
The big guy with the Hawaii shirt is a little put off by your attitude...and frankly, from the questions you are asking, it looks like you need a basic Camera Raw tutorial. If you don't know why to use ACR vs doing stuff in Photoshop, I suspect you really don't understand raw image processing at all. Check the Adobe web site for a lot of ACR/LR tutorials to learn the basics...this forum isn't really an optimal place to learn ACR 101–there's simply too much you don't understand yet.
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The big guy with the Hawaii shirt is a little put off by your attitude...
LOL
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The big guy with the Hawaii shirt is a little put off by your attitude...and frankly, from the questions you are asking, it looks like you need a basic Camera Raw tutorial. If you don't know why to use ACR vs doing stuff in Photoshop, I suspect you really don't understand raw image processing at all. Check the Adobe web site for a lot of ACR/LR tutorials to learn the basics...this forum isn't really an optimal place to learn ACR 101–there's simply too much you don't understand yet.
Wonder if the big guy with the Hawaiian shirt was ever asked to play Santa Claus since he's got a great looking beard and all. I can just picture in my mind him telling kids...
"Yeah, bud, I'ld like a Power Ranger, too, but I ain't holding my breath. Now off my lap, kiddo'. You're giving me a charley horse...NEXT!" ;D
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Wonder if the big guy with the Hawaiian shirt was ever asked to play Santa Claus since he's got a great looking beard and all. I can just picture in my mind him telling kids...
Yeah, ya know, Christmas ain't my favorite time of year...but the upside is I can really screw with little kids' heads. "I ain't "Santa", I'm Santa's evil brother but I can make darn sure you get nothing so shut up and behave yourself"...(actually, just looking stern and shaking my finger at them tends to keep them well behaved). Just so ya know, people who yell Santa at me get coal...be careful, I have a long memory!
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Just so ya know, people who yell Santa at me get coal...be careful, I have a long memory!
YIKES! Thanks for the warning!
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From ACR, open your photo in PS as a Smart Object. From PS, you can then easily go back to ACR to make further edits, then back to PS again.
Provided you are using PS CS6 and not an earlier version.
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Provided you are using PS CS6 and not an earlier version.
Smart objects were introduced many versions ago. CS 2?
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John view this video.
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/the-complete-picture-with-julieanne-kost/the-difference-between-edit-in-photoshop-and-open-as-smart-object-
Smart objects have been around for a few years and you can open an image from LR 4 to PS as a smart object but only PS CS6 allows you to return the image to LR for further editing using a smart object and camera raw version 7. If you are using CS5 then it takes you back to version 6.7 Obviously they aren't compatible.
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Quote Jeff
(actually, just looking stern and shaking my finger at them tends to keep them well behaved)
Unquote
It usually keeps the members here well behaved. ;)
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Thanks, I know the LR-PS workflow perfectly well, though there's been no change for a number of cycles in the need to keep LR and PS versions in sync if you want to re-edit smart objects. The original post was about ACR/PS and I was responding to the posts quoted below, and since CS2 you've been able to "go back to ACR to make further edits" to a raw file in a smart object.
John
Quote from: dmerger on January 13, 2013, 05:20:03 PM
From ACR, open your photo in PS as a Smart Object. From PS, you can then easily go back to ACR to make further edits, then back to PS again.
Quote from: stamper on Today at 03:19:54 AM
Provided you are using PS CS6 and not an earlier version.
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If I open a RAW file to ACR I have the option of immediately opening it in Photoshop without making any edits.
I think this is the key misunderstanding right here - when you open a raw file in ACR and then click to open into Photoshop, you are making edits. You are making all kinds of final, irrevocable decisions -- setting the white and black points, baking in the color balance, making sharpening and noise reduction decisions, and far more -- and worse, you are choosing to use the default settings in ACR to do this. Some of these settings are just bad, like the default noise reduction. Others are simply not optimal. In any case, the raw processor gives you the best opportunity to make the most out of the raw data before it goes to Photoshop.
Just clicking through with the default settings is not some sort of "immaculate processing" that leaves you with an untouched raw file. It is for this reason that I never give my raw files to anyone else (cough-designers-cough) -- because they invariably just click through into Photoshop.
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The big guy with the Hawaii shirt is a little put off by your attitude...
That's understandable :-)
...there's simply too much you don't understand yet.
The good thing for me about such basic questions is that the answers uncover things I thought I knew but didn't, and things I thought I knew but was wrong about, and things I had worked out how to do but there's a better way.
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Yes I also love basic questions
My point of view!
I use ACR to get my basic processing done and then I save as a 16 bit file which I open up in PS to retouch. I like selecting areas with a feathered lasso and lightning or darkening, changing contrast and colour like we used to do in the darkroom.
Once the image is to my liking, I flatten it and convert to 8 bit. Working in 16 bit is a bit like working on a raw image, you have more image information to work with.
Having said that, Lightroom seems to give me better quality and tonality. I think it does more for you whereas ACR you have to decide more for yourself. So perhaps a way to do it would be to process in Lightroom to 16 bit and retouch in PS
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Actually about two years ago I did buy an ACR video on this site but was very disappointed. I felt I was just watching two guys congratulating all the software guys on what a good job they'd done. I don't think I even bothered to watch it all.
Wow - that doesn't sound like the LuLA video series I bought?!? I have all the LuLa tutorial programs on ACR, LR etc. - they are some of THE best available video tutorials (content-wise) - at a very nominal cost. My suggestion would be simply to...watch them several times..then your "question" will be answered.
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Couple of statements are these correct:
The moment the file goes to Photoshop it's no longer a RAW file.
Therefore none of the edits from ACR can be changed.
Is this true.
And Sniper you think I should be using Lightroom. Personally I think I should be using a box brownie.
Errr it was Jeremy who said you should be using lightroom, not me. Why should I use a box brownie, I stopped using one of those many years ago?.