Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: felix5616 on December 07, 2012, 03:42:44 pm
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I would like to hear from anyone that has used both HP Z3200 and the new canon IPF8400 printer regarding their impressions of the 2 machine with respect to B+W printing quality, in terms of overall , etc, butprint quality on glossy and matte surfaces, toning B+W prints, perceived sharpness, tonal scale etc. Not really interested in print speed as i print for myself.
I am also interested in your overall experience in general between the 2 printers.
I have a Z3200 and it is a wonderful machine with respect to image quality, ease of use, and especially the profiler which i would loose on the canon.
I am contemplating switching to or adding a canon IPF 8400 printer
leo
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I would buy a second-hand z3100 and you´ll have the best of both worlds.
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Truthfully, since HP is discontinuing most of the models, Canon's upgrades are just as good (if not better) than the previous models. The Canon IPF8400 will be basically the same quality with exact same inks as the IPF8300. It is a great printer and would recommend it in place of HP.
We have promotions going on with both brands if you're interested.
cwood@atlex.com
800-327-2822 x5583
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Have you considered an Epson? Their advanced B&W mode gets a lot of great reviews, which I agree with.
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Ernst published answer to your question a few days ago:
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/message/4259
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Decided to keep my Z3200. It has never let me down, the onboard spectra is great and it uses very little ink
leo
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Decided to keep my Z3200. It has never let me down, the onboard spectra is great and it uses very little ink
leo
I would have made the same decision than you, but I think you can get the best of B&W printing on a z3200ps if you try using "custom made" icc profiles for this machine. I´m not an expert in b&w printing, but I think people like Ernst Dinkla can give you a great help on that.
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I just bough my Z from HP and love it, According to who
I talked to at HP they were not planing on discontinuing any
of that series although some were out of stock on back order.
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I have both ipf8300 and HP z3100. The black-and-white output on the z3100 is second to none. When I print black-and-white, it is always on the z3100.
I've heard good things about True Black-and-White plug-in by Bowhaus, but incredulously they STILL don't make it for Windows.
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Yea, I have both the Canon and HP also. I still do most of my bw work on Matte paper with the HP when not using Piezogrpahy in an Epson.
The dmax on the HP is is like 1.8 or so on matte media and no highly permanent inkset can do that. However, for almost anything I've tested the Canon with TBW can equal the tonal quality and sharpness of the HP but NOT with with Canon driver, even with really good custom profiles from X-Rite.
Can anyone tell me if this 12 channel system of Hp printers with Vivera ink is going to survive into the future? I thought the line was over with forever. And they quit making them. Did I miss something? Are they selling Z3200s again?
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HP discontinued the Z3200 standard version but the PS version is the only one available in all sizes. I haven't heard of any other models coming out from HP.
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HP discontinued the Z3200 standard version but the PS version is the only one available in all sizes. I haven't heard of any other models coming out from HP.
I searched the Altex.com site for z3200 and the results stated there was nothing at the site. I tried to browse for the same thing and again, nothing can be found.
Someone needs to do some work on the site if Altex does indeed sell these things.
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However, for almost anything I've tested the Canon with TBW can equal the tonal quality and sharpness of the HP but NOT with with Canon driver, even with really good custom profiles from X-Rite.
John, thanks a lot for an interesting remark, I'd be glad to achieve higher dmax on matte papers.
May I ask how did you manage to get it in TBW? Did you get better dmax from the Canon driver (at the expense of tonal quality)? I'll try to experiment with TBW and other RIP solution for color prints.
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I'm sorry I didn't mean to suggest that I got the Z3100 dmax with the Canon with any software configuration. What I did get easily with TBW was the same totally neutral print color, and a wonderful totally linear tonal range with the 8300. None of these pigments equals the Vivera in for maximum black density. However....... for probably most things you aren't sensing a weak dmax with either the Canon or Epson inksets these days.
john
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Ok, this is coming from a guy who has owned the Z3200 44" and also the iPF8300......
I could never get a smooth gradient on my Z3200, and I tried the built in profiling as well as the Advanced Profiling Solution. This drove me nuts about the Z3200. I absolutely loved some things about the printer overall, like the gloss optimizer for glossy prints and the built-in spectro, but my intention for that printer was to only use it for B&W prints on glossy papers and it fell short of my expectations. The Z3200 is the only printer on the market that has a 3 controls over toning in the printer driver (shadows, mid tones and highlights), and this intrigued me. No matter what I did with the profiling I could never get a smooth gradient. I did do a 1728 patch profile outside of the printer, and it did better than the built-in spectro, but it still fell short of my expectations. The drawbacks to the printer are well documented here, such as the slow speed (I don't care, but others might), roll loading from the rear of the unit and not-so-robust quality of printer stand, etc.
On my 8300 it just goes and goes and goes and goes. I love the output quality and it is my go-to printer for all B&W as well as color. I had a 9900 but had some issues with it and decided to part ways with it. The 9900 quality of output is superb, but I had different needs at the time. I do switch out paper types many times throughout the day and I didn't like having to switch the blacks around each time. Waste of time and ink.
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John, thanks a lot for an interesting remark, I'd be glad to achieve higher dmax on matte papers.
May I ask how did you manage to get it in TBW? Did you get better dmax from the Canon driver (at the expense of tonal quality)? I'll try to experiment with TBW and other RIP solution for color prints.
Hello, I can not find anywhere what TBW means. I've looked in acronym dictionaries to no avail.
Thanks,
Brian
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True B&W, I suspect.
http://www.trueblackandwhite.com
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Andy,
Are you using TBW or any rip for B&W? If not, are you using the canon monochrome printing mode, or are you printing in color mode?
I'm just starting to try to figure out B&W on an 8300 and really appreciate any and all insights. I've never really felt successful in the past with my previous epson printers, but I never used a rip or dedicated myself to truely solving the issues. I'm hoping to get a handle on it this time around.
Apologies to the OP if this is straying from the original question.
Stuart
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Stuart, I have tried True B&W but for my pea brain I couldn't figure it all out. Seriously lacking any guidance, tutorials or even a place to start with that software.
On the 8300 I do both their monochrome mode as well as printing a toned B&W image through as a color image. Just depends on my mood.
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I could never get a smooth gradient on my Z3200, and I tried the built in profiling as well as the Advanced Profiling Solution.
Have you tried sending the file using the EWS? It must be a RGB 16bits tiff, but you should check that the file is being printed on grayscale. I had great output with better gradients than using PS or LR to print the file. Tha manual says that the printer is "truly" printing in 16bits (well... actually the conversion from 16 to 8 bits it´s done by the printer)
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What is EWS?
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Embedded web Server.
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First of all I would never use the Z3100 or the Canon with those retarded "color wheel" abw type of set ups. No they aren't linear and never will be that way.
With my Z I made a really good profile that is super linear and I print out of RGB but tone with a Hue Saturation adjustment layer set at 40 Hue and 2 Saturation. I"ve been doing this for about 6 years. It is a perfect lab neutral with no metameristic failure and killer dmax. It works equally well on matte or gloss fiber media. They are beautiful, not as dimensional as Piezography K7 on matt media, for sure, never will be, but very nice in their own way.
The IPF8300 with True Black and White is even easier, and WAY more linear and precise than that crazy Canon half ass solution for monochrome. The difference between day and night really. All you need is to plug in your Eye One and linearize any of the stock curves they have available for similar papers. I tried using those curves on similar papers and they were ok , but no where as precise as making my own custom curves, but you need a good spectro for sure. It is very easy though, and very fast.
If you look at the color inks being used with this approach, for neutral set up you are using no color ink at all. You can't do this with Epson, and even with my Hp Z if I don't use some color ink it's going too cool. But the HP color inks are so amazing permanent and you need so little of it that it never bothered me to use it that way. They don't look different from daylight to warm tungsten spots.
BowHaus needs some serious rethinking of their website. That is the absolute worst documentation and lack of a step by step tutorial that I could ever imagine anyone coming up with. And that is from someone who totally loves their product and uses the hell out of it. It's like they don't care, and maybe they don't. I think their main concern is using it for themselves and if anyone else would like to take advantage of it cool, if not , that's cool too. They certainly aren't making much cash out of it. They are very tiny company, really a mom and pop outfit that makes beautiful prints in La. Their prints on gloss media have always been spectacular. I'll tell you one thing, it certainly makes my life easier and I'm never disappointed with their neutral output on the Harmon Baryta or similar papers. One thing everyone loves is my making the neutral Canon prints out of that TBW on the warmtone Harmon. It is giving you a slight split to a warmer highlight. And that little change makes the whole thing so much more dimensional. Its kind of an illusion of a greater feeling of depth than you really have. However, I do spray them with the Hahnemuhle spray to make them as smooth as a silver print.
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Thanks Deanwork! Very encouraging post. Do you have any resources to recommend to help mastering the True B&W ?
Stuart
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I'm going to try to write this up ( along with some of my concerns about lack of documentation ) on our blog during Christmas. I"ll send you a link when I do. If you are polite you can also email them and ask specific questions and they have always been very helpful to me. Just don't start complaining about their software. If you do that you probably won't get an answer. Sometimes with my latest version of the Eye One spectro, it won't be recognized by the software. Then I close out the software and restart it and it has always worked after that. The readings have always been very accurate and their grayscale is big enough to read with no problems.
john
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BowHaus needs some serious rethinking of their website. That is the absolute worst documentation and lack of a step by step tutorial that I could ever imagine anyone coming up with. And that is from someone who totally loves their product and uses the hell out of it. It's like they don't care, and maybe they don't.
I'll second that. Still waiting on a Windows version.
I wonder if I could use TBW successfully and print from MacOSX running on Windows 7 using VirtualBox? Anyone done this? Might be a holiday project!
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The IPF8300 with True Black and White is even easier, and WAY more linear and precise than that crazy Canon half ass solution for monochrome. The difference between day and night really. All you need is to plug in your Eye One and linearize any of the stock curves they have available for similar papers. I tried using those curves on similar papers and they were ok , but no where as precise as making my own custom curves, but you need a good spectro for sure. It is very easy though, and very fast.
If you look at the color inks being used with this approach, for neutral set up you are using no color ink at all. You can't do this with Epson, and even with my Hp Z if I don't use some color ink it's going too cool. But the HP color inks are so amazing permanent and you need so little of it that it never bothered me to use it that way. They don't look different from daylight to warm tungsten spots.
Would it be possible to use the Canon driver color mode for B&W, create a QTR ICC profile with Photoshop curves + linearisation and get a Dmax, linearity and paper white B&W tone similar to TBW? When printing a B&W image through the color mode is the Canon driver keeping out color ink as much as possible like the HP Z3100 driver? As long as TBW does not run on Windows and with my preference to use Qimage I would go that route if I ever buy an 8400. I found the creation of more Photoshop curves to drive an HP Officejet filled with a custom quad inkset not that difficult after I made the first curve set. Paul Roark does it all the time for Epsons. The curves in the Canon case do not even have to partition grey inks but only add some color if needed, the linearisation + profile creation is quite automatic with the QTR tools. Of course one can find ICC profile creation software that can do similar jobs but I have seen Dmax clipped quite often then. Still do not understand why that should happen.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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I don't see any reason why you couldn't do that, print out a target with the 8300, measure it in QTR, use that as your profile. I mean you could theoretically do this either rgb or 16 bit grayscale since the 8300 utilizes 16 bit grayscale, then print out of Canon driver or use Q-Image. But that's a lot of trouble and it doesn't do everything that TBW does. I'd rather just buy a used cheap Imac and use that as a print server for BowHaus.
What I like about TBW is that their existing pre-made curves are optimized very well for print color and ink limits for select types of media. In other words they have done that ink limiting part of the process for you already, and that's the time consuming part. The other thing I really like about about their curves is they way you can custom tweak the print color by using their slider for EACH of the color channels. It's really set up well and totally intuitive. What you might spend a week or more doing in Studio Print you can do in no time. You see exactly what channel is being used and can bump it up or bump it down slightly on the fly, then save that and give it a name if you like it as a permanent curve in the application to choose from in the future. That way you also see exactly what "problem" hues to stay away from if you want. OR, you could create a really intense monochrome hue if you wanted to go that way. Haven't done that here.
I don't know how the politics of these big printer companies function, but I do know they have never really gone all out and supported a third party software developer to create something outstanding for black and white. TBW is the only thing that has been tolerated in an even half ass way by Canon. But they all seem to live in the fictional world that their OEM solutions are just great, but they never are. Though with the HP Z set up using a custom rgb icc it's pretty damn good and easy as long as you don't mind using Photoshop to assign your color tint. But even with that printer and permanence of its color inks, it could be a lot better. Imagine if you had a software where you could load one more gray channel giving you a real QUAD tonality, or 6 or 7 gray channels ( plus color in the others) even into the Z and linearize THAT with all that dmax and color toning capability of the other 5 channels! Now that would be a monochrome printer to die for. Just killer, and the prints would last forever. HP could be famous for it. But it won't happen, they are just too scattered of a corporation and they are more interested in "designers" these days than photographers. So fickle.
john
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I'm going to try to write this up ( along with some of my concerns about lack of documentation ) on our blog during Christmas. I"ll send you a link when I do. If you are polite you can also email them and ask specific questions and they have always been very helpful to me. Just don't start complaining about their software. If you do that you probably won't get an answer. Sometimes with my latest version of the Eye One spectro, it won't be recognized by the software. Then I close out the software and restart it and it has always worked after that. The readings have always been very accurate and their grayscale is big enough to read with no problems.
john
John; I would thoroughly enjoy reading any insights you have on TBW. Better documentation of the software could really boost its user base.