Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: julienlanoo on November 29, 2012, 10:00:13 am
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I found it interesting...
As i personally remarked a hudge difference between LS shneiders and Technical shneiders at same price..
I mean if we find after a good amount of time, the equipment isn't up to scratch quality wise, can't we say it.. Not to rant on the producer, but to make clear it should evolve in to better stuff..?
And if the Mamiya LS are the same as the Shneider LS lenses only cheaper, isn't that a good thing to know ?..
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- List price of Mamiya branded LS and Schneider branded LS lenses (same lens, different distro channels) are the same. Any discrepancy in price is due to the box movers whose online prices are governed by algorithm and database managers not product specialists who actually keep track of things like pricing changes (of which there was one on those lenses). Generally BH waits until someone at the manufacturer notices the MAP violation to change the price they list at, and if any of their competitors have a lower price they have a robot program that finds that price and matches it.
- Look up the last hundred posts by the OP of that thread, and see if you can discern a pattern in his posts. Do you think he is providing useful criticism or just stirring the pot? I suppose it's subjective, but, I mean, I haven't seen such an obvious troll on this forum in at least a few years. He tries hard to mask it by occasionally saying something positive, so if you only tune in occasionally you could be forgiven for not noticing). It's like watching a highly biased "news" show that occasionally brings a "opposing viewpoint" analyst to create the appearance of balance.
- Tech camera lenses and SLR lenses are REALLY different markets/lenses. One is an AF lens with auto aperture, an electronic communication interface and designed around a mirror box and providing no movements. The other is a manual-only-everything lens designed without a mirror box as a consideration, and intended to allow (in most cases) movements like tilt/shift/swing. Tech camera lenses are usually lower in quantity-sales per lens (not always true, but usually). The performance and price of these two types of lenses will consequently be very separately measure/attained. The only thing they really share in common is a brand name.
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I mean if we find after a good amount of time, the equipment isn't up to scratch quality wise, can't we say it.. Not to rant on the producer, but to make clear it should evolve in to better stuff..?
110%. If your intention/motivation is to discuss in an open even-handed way the equipment you find performs well or performs poorly (or works for your needs or doesn't work for your needs) in order to better inform the community then I can't imagine a better use of this forum.
See also articles we publish like this which show clearly the performance of the 32HR over the Schneider 28LS:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/41027-phase-one-28mm-vs-schneider-28mm-vs-rodenstock-32hr.html
If your purpose is to troll a brand/company that you feel personally slighted by, and you do so in a really annoying repetitive and unproductive way... that is a different matter.
In other words:
equipment experience sharing = productive
thinly veiled witch hunts and crusades = unproductive
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I found it interesting...
As i personally remarked a hudge difference between LS shneiders and Technical shneiders at same price..
I mean if we find after a good amount of time, the equipment isn't up to scratch quality wise, can't we say it.. Not to rant on the producer, but to make clear it should evolve in to better stuff..?
And if the Mamiya LS are the same as the Shneider LS lenses only cheaper, isn't that a good thing to know ?..
+1. Member could use their own judgement. People with bad attitude will reflect in their own words.
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+1. Member could use their own judgement. People with bad attitude will reflect in their own words.
The problem with this philosophy is that 90% of the people who come here don't visit frequently enough to get a sense for who has what hidden agendas and biases unless they are fully disclosed.
For this reason I have my job/brand affiliations at the bottom of my posts. And anytime I address a post by someone new to the site I go out of my way to start my reply explaining my bias. While I try very hard to provide useful advice based on practical experience rather than marketing/advertising claims I do not pretend or hide that I can be considered entirely objective.
But there is no signature for "My main purpose here is to exact vengeance on a company I have developed a personal vandetta against; while my posts often have some validity which could be intelligently discussed and while my experience and knowledge as a photographer are valuable and could be shared constructively you should know the underlying purpose of this post is to find any nit I can and then pick at it in order to provide as much negativity towards this company as possible."
Such a shame: fredbgg has so much he could offer to this community, but instead he spends hours pouring through advertising videos looking for continuity errors and presenting them as a grand conspiracy of an evil empire.
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The problem with this philosophy is that 90% of the people who come here don't visit frequently enough to get a sense for who has what hidden agendas and biases unless they are fully disclosed.
For this reason I have my job/brand affiliations at the bottom of my posts. And anytime I address a post by someone new to the site I go out of my way to start my reply explaining my bias. While I try very hard to provide useful advice based on practical experience rather than marketing/advertising claims I do not pretend or hide that I can be considered entirely objective.
But there is no signature for "My main purpose here is to exact vengeance on a company I have developed a personal vandetta against; while my posts often have some validity which could be intelligently discussed and while my experience and knowledge as a photographer are valuable and could be shared constructively you should know the underlying purpose of this post is to find any nit I can and then pick at it in order to provide as much negativity towards this company as possible."
Such a shame: fredbgg has so much he could offer to this community, but instead he spends hours pouring through advertising videos looking for continuity errors and presenting them as a grand conspiracy of an evil empire.
+1.
And instead the forums are populated with "hasty generalizations" postulated as the truth of the whole, which I find to be extremely misleading, disingenuous, offensively paternalistic, and not helpful to the photographic forum community.
Aside from individual credibility being shot to hell, it adversely effects the credibility of the forum as a whole as a source for reliable information.
IMO.
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There needs to be a presence where an honest sharing of information is being presented. Experience from personal use is much more helpful than diatribes offering nothing more than one persons bitter criticism of what they feel is wrong. What we don't need is a Ralph Nader type of campaign which is most always just off the mark.
What we also need is a true sharing of information; not one where a person is hiding behind an addenda.
Agree with Doug on this - there's a better target besides medium format to look for that "grand conspiracy of the evil empire".
Just my 2¢
Don
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There needs to be a presence where an honest sharing of information is being presented. Experience from personal use is much more helpful than diatribes offering nothing more than one persons bitter criticism of what they feel is wrong. What we don't need is a Ralph Nader type of campaign which is most always just off the mark.
What we also need is a true sharing of information; not one where a person is hiding behind an addenda.
Agree with Doug on this - there's a better target besides medium format to look for that "grand conspiracy of the evil empire".
Just my 2¢
Don
The issue is that there are many, many people who come here for information. That is the value of the forum. And today people don't have a lot of disposable time on their hands. Time is precious. When time is wasted because of pointless provocations and it is done to an extreme, in large volume, it is a disservice to the forum and forum members and visitors.
Technical vs Medium Format (or even 35mm format) Schneider lenses is a great topic. And there are real world and technical contexts that many members here are capable of presenting that can assist in an understanding of the differences. Too often, that has not been the objective of the OP.
I've been posting on forums since the Rob Galbraith days (and the notorious Jesus thread that was censored). I'm not for censorship, and everyone needs a break once in a while, but moderators do have an obligation to respect and appreciate what visitors come here for, and too much time wasting noise and misinformation doesn't help anybody.
There are many who actually come here to seriously learn about whether they should consider these solutions, which ones are best for them, and how they should use them. We take very seriously the potential of someone who either has spent, or is considering spending a relatively large amount of money on these products, and feel their needs should be respected.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Both Doug's and Steve's serious and heartfelt replies are much appreciated. These forums are much better places with your participation, both knowledgeable and even-handed. Thank you both.
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I found it interesting...
As i personally remarked a hudge difference between LS shneiders and Technical shneiders at same price..
I mean if we find after a good amount of time, the equipment isn't up to scratch quality wise, can't we say it.. Not to rant on the producer, but to make clear it should evolve in to better stuff..?
And if the Mamiya LS are the same as the Shneider LS lenses only cheaper, isn't that a good thing to know ?..
I understand Chris or Michaels decision.
I do not think Chris or Micheal closed the thread due to the technical/historical discussion or the pricing, but the personal direction the thread was taking.
I also don't think that they would object to further discussion regarding the design and manufacturing of the lenses.
Actually something that I did not initiate. Rather than discuss the subject of the thread I was criticized and accused of having no more credibility.
I should of not responded to that, so I will take part of the blame.
Regarding credibility and the disputed prices I discussed anyone here can give B+H a call and talk to the pro department. I did this morning.
I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the prices (and my credibility will be saved;) ). 212.502.6272. (They are both a mail order and the biggest walk in photography store in the country as well as the biggest pro department.They are much more than box movers.)
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... In other words:
equipment experience sharing = productive
thinly veiled witch hunts and crusades = unproductive
Shouldn't we, the humble readers of this forum, be presumed as adults, capable of discerning which is which? Or we need a nanny for it?
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Hi,
I agree with you both.
My impression is that the moderators want to keep this forum very civilized. Discussions are OK but insults are not.
We also need to keep in mind that those who discuss have very different vantage points. Some are professionals, some are less than wealthy amateurs and some are essentially vendors of equipment. Some are satisfied, some are dissatisfied. Some believe in engineering data and things that can be measured and for some the very same data is of no value.
All that is OK, unless we loose tolerance for the other view.
Best regards
Erik
Shouldn't we, the humble readers of this forum, be presumed as adults, capable of discerning which is which? Or we need a nanny for it?
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Shouldn't we, the humble readers of this forum, be presumed as adults, capable of discerning which is which? Or we need a nanny for it?
Ideally yes, realistically no. Speaking generally, I am a moderator of a fairly large photo forum and even normally even keeled mature adults get caught up in a frenzy sometimes. There is something about the distance and anonymity of online forums that unleashes the worst sometimes in even good rational people.
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Pretty simple really: when the "Report this Post to Moderator" notifications get too numerous and adulthood becomes questioned - I generally do something about it - in the hope that the drang & sturm will die away.
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Just to clarify: deeply personal insults, vulgarities, curses, etc., as Erik mentioned, is not a part of what I had in mind. For that I agree moderators have a role. Everything else, I would rather be the judge of it.
There are at least two models for internet forums: one practiced by Mike Johnston and his The Online Photographer blog, and the other by LuLa. Mike prescreens every post to make sure it adheres to his standards, and LuLa does not. Both approaches have their pluses and minuses, but I enjoy reading both equally. The trick is to manage your expectations: you (rhetorical you) can't come to an open forum like LuLa, enjoy its pluses (entertainment being one of them), but then complain when its minuses bite you. And vice versa.
I think Fred at all play an important role in this forum. Whether he is an agent provocateur or not, has an agenda or not, is much less relevant to me. What I value is the dissent he brings, for whatever reason. And without dissent, we would not have a healthy debate. And if you (again, rhetorical you) think you figured him out and know his agenda, then skip, ignore, move on, or... engage with a counter argument.
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drang & sturm
Ok...had to Google that one....but it seems that you have inverted the word order. I find it written Strum und Drang. I also presume you are referring to the the second definition of "turmoil" and not the first; "a style or movement of German literature of the latter half of the 18th century: characterized chiefly by impetuosity of manner, exaltation of individual sensibility and intuitive perception, opposition to established forms of society and thought, and extreme nationalism."
:~)
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Ok...had to Google that one....but it seems that you have inverted the word order. I find it written Strum und Drang. I also presume you are referring to the the second definition of "turmoil" and not the first; "a style or movement of German literature of the latter half of the 18th century: characterized chiefly by impetuosity of manner, exaltation of individual sensibility and intuitive perception, opposition to established forms of society and thought, and extreme nationalism."
:~)
Quite so..
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Ok...had to Google that one....but it seems that you have inverted the word order. I find it written Strum und Drang....
Since we are nitpicking, I'll play: it would be "sturm" (i.e., storm), not "strum" (i.e., strum, as in guitar strumming). :P
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Pretty simple really: when the "Report this Post to Moderator" notifications get too numerous and adulthood becomes questioned - I generally do something about it - in the hope that the drang & sturm will die away.
Thanks Chris for the anwser that was what i was looking for, ..
I don't see what was so insulting on that topic, nothing real offensive was said, maybe no political correct words but if one has to put a sugar glazing over everything..
Explaining why i found it a bit of a shame why it closed down: I thought i would read about other peoples experiences, people who use ( abuse ) those things daily, as i've discussed this with other colleagues having the same "quality" issues, not only on mamiya stuff ...
FYI, i use my real name on this forum, so if you want validation, just google it, nothing to hide here!
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I don't see what was so insulting on that topic, nothing real offensive was said...
You clearly missed a couple of posts that were deleted before the thread was purged.
THANK YOU for removing the thread it was insult to this community to support it any further.
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The problem with this philosophy is that 90% of the people who come here don't visit frequently enough to get a sense for who has what hidden agendas and biases unless they are fully disclosed.
For this reason I have my job/brand affiliations at the bottom of my posts. And anytime I address a post by someone new to the site I go out of my way to start my reply explaining my bias. While I try very hard to provide useful advice based on practical experience rather than marketing/advertising claims I do not pretend or hide that I can be considered entirely objective.
But there is no signature for "My main purpose here is to exact vengeance on a company I have developed a personal vandetta against; while my posts often have some validity which could be intelligently discussed and while my experience and knowledge as a photographer are valuable and could be shared constructively you should know the underlying purpose of this post is to find any nit I can and then pick at it in order to provide as much negativity towards this company as possible."
Such a shame: fredbgg has so much he could offer to this community, but instead he spends hours pouring through advertising videos looking for continuity errors and presenting them as a grand conspiracy of an evil empire.
You are right. I did not read every post. I always thanks for your helpful and informative knowledge you supply to this place.
I also welcome any personal experience and comments.
Time will prove who lies.
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You clearly missed a couple of posts that were deleted before the thread was purged.
THANK YOU for removing the thread it was insult to this community to support it any further.
Exactly and I get left holding the bad guy position. Which is totally fine with me. Typical remove post before anyone quotes it. I know all those tricks . It's okay I have a very thick skin and I thought maybe some friendly advice would be accepted , obviously not so result attack the advice guy. But it clearly points out what your dealing with. Price on phase one products is dependent from Phase One dealers which B&H is NOT a Phase dealer. It sells Mamiya branded lenses which do NOT have the same warranty. Please read what Steve , Doug and Jeff are telling you this is not worth my time here.
What is extremely irritating is bad info that gets thrown around that is just flat out wrong. People are trying to give correct data to correct that. I give the above mentioned names credit for trying as myself.
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... THANK YOU for removing the thread...
The thread has not been removed, just locked.
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The thread has not been removed, just locked.
A matter of semantics. It was 'removed' from discussion.
Time to move on and not a moment too soon.
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+1
Erik
Both Doug's and Steve's serious and heartfelt replies are much appreciated. These forums are much better places with your participation, both knowledgeable and even-handed. Thank you both.
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There are at least two models for internet forums: one practiced by Mike Johnston and his The Online Photographer blog, and the other by LuLa. Mike prescreens every post to make sure it adheres to his standards, and LuLa does not.
but on Mike's blog discussion is "comments" to the articles ... not really the same as a forum where exchange is the goal. And I wonder if Mike's major motivation to review them is to be able to place ones that add insight in some manner to the bottom of the article, enhancing the experience for the user. While doing so he has the opportunity to cull out things that most typical forums don't have time to monitor. Mike does a great job and I go there everyday, but I rarely read through the comment threads other than those he has chosen and promoted to the main page. I assume there are occasions where two or more get into a "discussion"via his comments, but because of his policies it would be difficult ... waiting for approval.
Pushing all comments through a moderator or approval process can be a little scary, as we've seen from other forums where the personal viewpoints of those moderating bias what happens. and perhaps more damaging is the time lag ... often the quick exchange and back and forth discussions are very useful and helpful ... I myself have on a couple of occasions had a challenge and within a matter of minutes a helpful reply back has solved a problem.
I'm not sure you were inferring this is how LuLa should be, and guessing you weren't, just seems like the comparison is one of those apples to oranges kind of things...
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- List price of Mamiya branded LS and Schneider branded LS lenses (same lens, different distro channels) are the same. Any discrepancy in price is due to the box movers whose online prices are governed by algorithm and database managers not product specialists who actually keep track of things like pricing changes (of which there was one on those lenses). Generally BH waits until someone at the manufacturer notices the MAP violation to change the price they list at, and if any of their competitors have a lower price they have a robot program that finds that price and matches it.
At the risk of being accused of going off topic I'd just like to respond to that by pointing out that this is why I hate internet shopping. There is no personal involvement, no feel good factor about making a decision based on anything other than price, It just so demeans the experience of acquiring equipment. I like to talk to the people I am spending money with not just spend hours browsing the web to find something a few cents cheaper from supplier X rather than supplier Y. A market that is maintained and manipulated by cold computing is one that I'd rather not get involved in but I guess there are enough people who think it's clever out there to keep the momentum of this development rolling. Can't say I'm one of them.
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...I'm not sure you were inferring this is how LuLa should be, and guessing you weren't...
Your guess is right, Wayne, I definitely do not want LuLa to be like Mike's blog, not because there is something wrong with it, but because they are quite different animals, as you correctly described. As I said, I like them both, for different reasons.
I was more responding to some posters who apparently crave censorship.
P.S. Just to avoid any possible misunderstanding, I certainly do not consider the fine job owners and moderators of this site are doing as censorship. I appreciate the patience, tolerance, and latitude they have.
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At the risk of being accused of going off topic I'd just like to respond to that by pointing out that this is why I hate internet shopping. There is no personal involvement, no feel good factor about making a decision based on anything other than price, It just so demeans the experience of acquiring equipment. I like to talk to the people I am spending money with not just spend hours browsing the web to find something a few cents cheaper from supplier X rather than supplier Y. A market that is maintained and manipulated by cold computing is one that I'd rather not get involved in but I guess there are enough people who think it's clever out there to keep the momentum of this development rolling. Can't say I'm one of them.
It depends on the product and its use. A Canon/Nikon/Fuji just works (mostly) out of the box. For stills, they use their own accessories which are designed to work together. The high quality thrid-party lenses have seamless integration. I've mostly purchased gear for business, so the joy of aquisition isn't a priority for me. Saving money was a priority.
This isn't necessarily the case with MFDB. An MFDB can be used in many ways, with lots of third-party cameras/lenses, old cameras, new cameras, etc. There are software issues, mechanical problems with older cameras, power problems with newer laptops and tech cameras, and there is the cost. I'm not damning the backs at all, its just the nature of the things. These issues are helped with a dealer who can walk you through it before and after purchase.
At the end of the day, I'd buy a Phase or Leaf back from a dealer, new or used. If I wanted an H or a Pentax, I'd be fine with Best Buy, because I would only be using an H or a Pentax body and lenses. Cuts down on the variables which can cause issues where a dealer would be useful. If I shot a tech camera I'd go the dealer route, or had any "unusual" use where extensive testing is required.
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I totally disagree with Mike in this.
This belongs in China and Russia, not in the west.
Sad to learn about this...
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It depends on the product and its use. A Canon/Nikon/Fuji just works (mostly) out of the box. For stills, they use their own accessories which are designed to work together. The high quality thrid-party lenses have seamless integration. I've mostly purchased gear for business, so the joy of aquisition isn't a priority for me. Saving money was a priority.
This isn't necessarily the case with MFDB. An MFDB can be used in many ways, with lots of third-party cameras/lenses, old cameras, new cameras, etc. There are software issues, mechanical problems with older cameras, power problems with newer laptops and tech cameras, and there is the cost. I'm not damning the backs at all, its just the nature of the things. These issues are helped with a dealer who can walk you through it before and after purchase.
At the end of the day, I'd buy a Phase or Leaf back from a dealer, new or used. If I wanted an H or a Pentax, I'd be fine with Best Buy, because I would only be using an H or a Pentax body and lenses. Cuts down on the variables which can cause issues where a dealer would be useful. If I shot a tech camera I'd go the dealer route, or had any "unusual" use where extensive testing is required.
I can see the sense in that, I guess it's what you are happy with.
The other point is that in the 'good ol' days' there was a certain sense of mystique about photography and cameras were valued as tools rather than than consumer products, in fact that goes for a lot of things but what does break down is customer loyalty and service which can be a retrograde step as I know from another interest of mine.
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Exactly and I get left holding the bad guy position. Which is totally fine with me. Typical remove post before anyone quotes it. I know all those tricks . It's okay I have a very thick skin and I thought maybe some friendly advice would be accepted , obviously not so result attack the advice guy. But it clearly points out what your dealing with. Price on phase one products is dependent from Phase One dealers which B&H is NOT a Phase dealer. It sells Mamiya branded lenses which do NOT have the same warranty. Please read what Steve , Doug and Jeff are telling you this is not worth my time here.
What is extremely irritating is bad info that gets thrown around that is just flat out wrong. People are trying to give correct data to correct that. I give the above mentioned names credit for trying as myself.
Actually Guy, the warranty for the same Mamiya and Phase One lenses is the same. The only difference when it comes to the warranties for all of the discussed lenses is Mamiya/Phase One Focal Plane Shutter lenses (D Lenses) come with a 3 year warranty, Schneider Leaf Shutter Lenses come with a 1 year warranty.
The more precise point is that if B&H or Adorama also sold Phase One lenses, the pricing they would sell them at would very likely be the same as what they sell the Mamiya lenses at because the dealer cost to them (just as it is with us and every other dealer) is the same. So, assuming that the Mamiya lenses cost less than the same Phase One lens might be a conclusion, but it is only based on several sellers who do not also sell Phase One lenses. At dealers where both brands are sold, the price seems to be the same.
My additional take on moderating of forums - I don't really care so much about insults or personal emotions running high, etc. Passion - is good! Feel what you feel. Though too much of that can just leave a sour taste. I'm more concerned about threads that waste people's time and purposely are designed to stir up provocation, and which promote misinformation (or at least information that results in misinformation). Sorry, that was a mouthful.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Thanks for clarifying the warranties Steve.
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Exactly and I get left holding the bad guy position. Which is totally fine with me. Typical remove post before anyone quotes it. I know all those tricks . It's okay I have a very thick skin and I thought maybe some friendly advice would be accepted , obviously not so result attack the advice guy. But it clearly points out what your dealing with. Price on phase one products is dependent from Phase One dealers which B&H is NOT a Phase dealer. It sells Mamiya branded lenses which do NOT have the same warranty. Please read what Steve , Doug and Jeff are telling you this is not worth my time here.
What is extremely irritating is bad info that gets thrown around that is just flat out wrong. People are trying to give correct data to correct that. I give the above mentioned names credit for trying as myself.
In the same post you complain about misinformation and you post misinformation (in upper case too ;). The warranties are the same for the equivalent Phase one or Mamiya versions of lenses. Phase One 110mm LS 1 year, Mamiya 110mm LS 1 year. You may be able to purchase more warranty.
Rgarding the prices of Phase One and Mamiya lenses it's really quite simple. All anyone has to do is give BH Photo a call and and ask for their best price. The result is that in the real world
the price of a Mamiya version of the lens lower. 212.502.6295. For repairs BH is just as capable as other dealers in sending the gear to the manufacturers repair center for service.
Same goes for Samy's in LA. Both are companies with big internet sales as well as huge walk in stores with large well staffed pro departments.
(Edit) I see Steve here confirms the warranty stuff)
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At the risk of being accused of going off topic I'd just like to respond to that by pointing out that this is why I hate internet shopping. There is no personal involvement, no feel good factor about making a decision based on anything other than price, It just so demeans the experience of acquiring equipment. I like to talk to the people I am spending money with not just spend hours browsing the web to find something a few cents cheaper from supplier X rather than supplier Y. A market that is maintained and manipulated by cold computing is one that I'd rather not get involved in but I guess there are enough people who think it's clever out there to keep the momentum of this development rolling. Can't say I'm one of them.
Both B+H and Adorama are brick and mortar stores. You can walk in and talk as well as order online. Whenever I'm in New York I pop in to buy this or that and then from LA buy online. I get to know the pro department
guys and know who I talk to when I phone in. I have bought from B+H for over twenty years, even ordering rare items from them when I was living in Europe. One time I was heading to a shoot in New Orleans from Milan and I needed
an 8x10 camera with a 480mm Schnieder. They found it for me and had it packed and ready to pick up between my fight stop over in New York.
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When I think of all the people who would do so much with all the opportunity and talent that you have Fred. It's just sad to see how you spend your time.
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When I think of all the people who would do so much with all the opportunity and talent that you have Fred. It's just sad to see how you spend your time.
Sorry if you think advising fellow photographers where to get good service and better prices is wasting my time.
This last week I spent quite a bit of time with other photographers.
A portrait photographer I met at Calumet. She was buying some gear because she had her first large group shot portrait.
I spent about an hour with her giving her advice on how to work with a group. What face types to put in what part of the photo,
mainly light for the most difficult face etc. Use depth rather than a shooting squad lineup and most importantly use a good amount of distance
between light and subject so there is less light fall of for the people posed further back. Interesting thing is that the sales man asked me if I could do A lighting
workshop for them.
Yesterday I spent and hour or so on the phone helping out a photographer I know only on line from a forum.
But I find that helping out keeps me on the ball. Also if something comes up and I need something I have a lot of assistants and photographers I can call for help.
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Hi,
My feeling is that this forum is and should be kept civilized. I would say that passion is good, but we should keep of offending persons, invectives, foul language and so on.
I don't think that folks normally spread misinformation intentionally. Of course much of the information we have would not held in court. Also much of the information is difficult to convey. Take for instance any statements referring to prints. Prints cannot be easily distributed on the net. Files can be distributed over the net, on the other hand and I would suggest we have seen few of that.
Best regards
Erik
My additional take on moderating of forums - I don't really care so much about insults or personal emotions running high, etc. Passion - is good! Feel what you feel. Though too much of that can just leave a sour taste. I'm more concerned about threads that waste people's time and purposely are designed to stir up provocation, and which promote misinformation (or at least information that results in misinformation). Sorry, that was a mouthful.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Sorry if you think advising fellow photographers where to get good service and better prices is wasting my time.
That may be a small part of what you. Primarily you bitch and it's just annoying.
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Fred,
I very much doubt your motivation in these threads is to help anyone. If you wanted to help, you'd be posting how to work around issues that come up with the products like most of the rest of us do.
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Shouldn't we, the humble readers of this forum, be presumed as adults, capable of discerning which is which? Or we need a nanny for it?
The presence of this thread indicates that we are not really dealing with dangerous censorship, but more of a "time out". People with something useful to say know that they can start a new, hopefully less stormy thread after a pause for tempers to cool. Meanwhile, even as an adult, I often get driven away from a thread with useful content when I have to swallow a sand-storm of irrelevancies to get at that content. (And I have also lapsed into some sand-throwing myself at times.)