Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: KevinA on November 16, 2012, 04:20:46 pm
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Ok silly question time.
When I'm editing a still image I have a rough idea on screen what 100% relates to as a print. I know what 20x16 print will look like from the file, I reckon viewed on screen at 50% is close.
How do I know what the final image on a TV will look like when I'm editing. A 100% on screen looks fairy $hit to me, then again when I get close to my TV it does not look to great either.
Blu-ray looks ok close-up the stuff coming from space looks all over the place. I'm struggling to know what is good and what is bad, I'm sure screen size viewing distance and conditions play as big a part in video as they do in viewing prints, I just can't get a handle on what is good quality regarding video when I'm editing. It all looks lacking in resolution to my eye.
Kevin.
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Most video is indeed terrible!
Now you are sure that your NLE plays back at full resolution?
Some dont to load the computer less
I certainly had that in my early days of wandering the settings of FCP6
..and yes it does look ok from the sofa if the TV is on the other side of the lounge so how much quality do you need
I guess a typical lo end camera DSLR or sub $10k vid resolves around 500-700 LPI which would appear to be about half of the the true potential of hd1080
50% size viewed from desk distance would probably equate to a big TeeVee viewed from the sofa?
S
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Ok silly question time.
When I'm editing a still image I have a rough idea on screen what 100% relates to as a print. I know what 20x16 print will look like from the file, I reckon viewed on screen at 50% is close.
How do I know what the final image on a TV will look like when I'm editing. A 100% on screen looks fairy $hit to me, then again when I get close to my TV it does not look to great either.
Blu-ray looks ok close-up the stuff coming from space looks all over the place. I'm struggling to know what is good and what is bad, I'm sure screen size viewing distance and conditions play as big a part in video as they do in viewing prints, I just can't get a handle on what is good quality regarding video when I'm editing. It all looks lacking in resolution to my eye.
Kevin.
not a silly question..... i struggle with the same thing, i think all of us primarily Stills shooters are used to good resolution.
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Most video is indeed terrible!
Now you are sure that your NLE plays back at full resolution?
Some dont to load the computer less
I certainly had that in my early days of wandering the settings of FCP6
..and yes it does look ok from the sofa if the TV is on the other side of the lounge so how much quality do you need
I guess a typical lo end camera DSLR or sub $10k vid resolves around 500-700 LPI which would appear to be about half of the the true potential of hd1080
50% size viewed from desk distance would probably equate to a big TeeVee viewed from the sofa?
S
Yes I'm using FCP X and AE, it's not the playback preview quality that concerns me. If I pause the video and view at 100% I think it looks poor as does the final movie close-up. I can keep stepping backwards until I think it looks acceptable, I can't believe that's how I should be assessing it.
The other problem I have coming from a position of ignorance is knowing the workflow to preserve quality. Should I be converting to something like Prores before importing into FCP X.
If I go straight into AE then output as Prores I think it looks better than straight into FCP X, then again I might be wrong.
................... and grading is driving me nuts, I suppose coming from working with a raw still image I was unprepared for the drop in what can be tweaked. But what really makes it impossible for me to get it like I would like (I shoot video very flat/ neutral) is the controls seam impossibly coarse and clumsy, often over complicated too.
A good workflow would be a start, because I do not have a foundation in video I don't know what the parameters are, how to change or keep them, what I should reasonable expect, where good becomes bad etc. I'm searching for a good beginners up to date book, any recommendations please!
And what does give you real HD? Does the latest GoPro give genuine HD or does it start at a 300C, video looks to have lots of meaningless figures attached to it that have nothing to do with what you think (the manufactures want you to think) they apply too.
I shot these clips to try and get an idea of what to expect http://vimeo.com/53594794
Thanks,
Kevin.
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I watched the video - it seems to be every reason not to shoot with a DSLR!
DSLRs look great for headshots at F2 with an out of focus lamp behind.
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Bascially how to evaluate 'quality' yes there are a lot of mumbo jumbo numbers. It IMO seems to come down to data rate - you will see a 1080HD camera like the Sony F35 seems to shoot a suitcase of data - im sure that is not a waste 880MBS or something http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-F35/ - what is the 1DX? 45mbs? - that is jpg compression 2 in stills speak?
Your camera shoots H264, 8bit
This is kind of the minimal,
Imagine you are allocating data around the frame you will see that complex subjects - trees waving in the wind - buildings - require a lot of data
Here the compressed formats really fall apart
Maybe a pro-res recorder would help for such scenes
Certainly a Black magic camera - the image is just a bunch of raw still DNG files - but the data rate is a double edged sword..
The BMC shoots 7GB per minute! which has its own serious issue set
As for shooting 'flat' this is IMO fools gold of the deepest nature when using a 'thin codec' (8bit camera)
You should look to cram the histo with data and concentrate on getting the colours in camera
As soon as you grade 8bit it collapses becuase there are no unseen intermediate tones to rely on.. it has to band/break up
Canon C300 - hmm - im not so sure
So..
Bin the flat profiles? (free)
Consider a recorder? ($1000?)
Consider a new camera? ($theworldisyouroyster)
My feeling is the BMC and Scarlet offer a great image in a quirky package and the upcoming Sony F5 and C500 offer a great image in a more practical package
Im unconvinced by the F3,C100,C300andAF100,FS100 and FS700 - they are a step beyond DSLR but only a step - the codecs are too thin for more IMO
S
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Also remember cheap ND filtration, flare, stopping down into the defractive zone will degrade your image
My FS100 - looks great with a lit interview
But take it outdoors and point it at a complex wide at F11 with a VND filter and you get sludge..
S
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warning; I am gonna g slightly off topic here, sorry Kevin, I can start another thead if you prefer;
since we are discussing resolution i would like to get advice on this; i shoot shoulder rigged 1080p with my canon 5dmk3. i edit in fcpx and use a fair amount of image stabilization in the software. This forces you to crop in to the image. My solution is to output at 720p to avoid losing resolution, but I would prefer to just scale the output down to match the resolution that I have cropped to. How do I do that? Choosing 960 x 540 from the project properties? Or should I even worry about this and just output at 1080p? Most of what I am delivering is going to be seen on Vimeo at Fullscreen at its 'biggest'.
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My workflow maintains 1080P for as long as possible including using image stabilization. Yes, that means that the original is being resampled to maintain 1080P but I find that keeping the highest resolution possible through the complete edit process to the point of actual compression and output for the web (or whatever) maintains the best possible quality.
To the OP: you can drive yourself nuts looking for still or freeze-frame quality within video. Anything short of 4k is going to suffer in comparison to stills. But this is motion and the quality of motion does not really equate to stills. IMO - Judge by running footage at full resolution - not by still frames.
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I shot these clips to try and get an idea of what to expect http://vimeo.com/53594794
Thanks,
Kevin.
on the vimeo page you state " Even a small amount of stabilisation in Final Cut X degrades to a noticeable degree. " Can you expand on this? Is it because you loose resolution due to the crop or is it something else it effects? I use image stabilisation in FCPX for almost everything but I am still trying to figure out its overall effect.
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If you want a better more 'intelligent' image stabilizer, check out CoreMelt's Lock & Load (http://www.coremelt.com/products/lock-and-load-x.html)
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I can see a drop in resolution between straight footage and footage with default stabilisation in FCP X, I think (not really done like for like comparison) that AE does a better job with stabilisation. I also think AE is better at adding sharpening. I might just of got lucky with the settings and someone that knows what they are doing could make each look like the other. This video is another game altogether, so many things to trip you up you did not know you had to consider.
You can look at great stuff shot with a 5DII and forget a team of experts well financed pull every trick to make it look lovely. A bit different to a one man band new to the game trying to get the best they can.
Kevin.
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I watched the video - it seems to be every reason not to shoot with a DSLR!
DSLRs look great for headshots at F2 with an out of focus lamp behind.
--
Bascially how to evaluate 'quality' yes there are a lot of mumbo jumbo numbers. It IMO seems to come down to data rate - you will see a 1080HD camera like the Sony F35 seems to shoot a suitcase of data - im sure that is not a waste 880MBS or something http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-F35/ - what is the 1DX? 45mbs? - that is jpg compression 2 in stills speak?
Your camera shoots H264, 8bit
This is kind of the minimal,
Imagine you are allocating data around the frame you will see that complex subjects - trees waving in the wind - buildings - require a lot of data
Here the compressed formats really fall apart
Maybe a pro-res recorder would help for such scenes
Certainly a Black magic camera - the image is just a bunch of raw still DNG files - but the data rate is a double edged sword..
The BMC shoots 7GB per minute! which has its own serious issue set
As for shooting 'flat' this is IMO fools gold of the deepest nature when using a 'thin codec' (8bit camera)
You should look to cram the histo with data and concentrate on getting the colours in camera
As soon as you grade 8bit it collapses becuase there are no unseen intermediate tones to rely on.. it has to band/break up
Canon C300 - hmm - im not so sure
So..
Bin the flat profiles? (free)
Consider a recorder? ($1000?)
Consider a new camera? ($theworldisyouroyster)
My feeling is the BMC and Scarlet offer a great image in a quirky package and the upcoming Sony F5 and C500 offer a great image in a more practical package
Im unconvinced by the F3,C100,C300andAF100,FS100 and FS700 - they are a step beyond DSLR but only a step - the codecs are too thin for more IMO
S
I would say at 1920 x 1080 on my retina display it looks better but I'm not convinced it's as good as I want/expected.
I tried some stuff with a 5DII and rolling shutter was a big problem, so from that point the X is a big improvement. One reason I have not jumped on the BMC was the reports of rolling shutter. In the air rolling shutter highlights any jumps or jars and makes it difficult to correct.
The goal for me is smooth video with the bear minimum or no post stabilisation. I'm refining various ideas for stabilised mounts, I'm getting closer but cineflex smooth looks a long way off. The system also needs to be easy to mount and dismount in the air, so stills and video can be shot on the same flight by myself.The system also needs to be capable of shooting smoothly with a tele lens, constant wide flyby views boar me to tears, they also look to be the norm for stills guys doing moving image in the air.
Thank
Kevin.
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Well In not experienced in the air but have a bit of a thing with more affordable vehicles.
Really I dont think RS is a problem, RS is a problem as things pass through the frame
I think you need to work on the stabilisation technology
It might be worth considering an NEX5n as there is so much less mass to stabilise
Ive just bought a KS4 - playing continues..
60p is also a massive de-shaker!
S
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Seems like your default approach to most things is 'buy more/different gear'. This or that is never good enough. Must be nice having deep pockets.
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Seems like your default approach to most things is 'buy more/different gear'. This or that is never good enough. Must be nice having deep pockets.
If you are a working pro then this is how it is in the digital era. Why not use the best tools? Begin flame war in 3, 2, 1 ........
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Seems like your default approach to most things is 'buy more/different gear'. This or that is never good enough. Must be nice having deep pockets.
I hate buying gear. video has been a deep money pit, that scares me no end.
Stills I use a 2008 D3 and glass I bought in 1992-8 in the main.
The OP wants to do something complex, that is considered in 'conventional world' to need a $100k rig
To 'cheat' that may need some smart thinking. Unfortunately the 1dx while a superb stills camera (possibly the best ever) may not be the right tool for this.
In video I have not enjoyed DSLR shooting and think it becomes a money hole fast especially if you come from stills where your expectations will typically be high or are expecting to be able to work for clients
There are certain bloggers who make these cameras look great and will tell you what they can do, but not really dwell on what they cant do.. people should spend video money with extreme caution
most cameras make wonderful films of ducks in the park
S
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Well In not experienced in the air but have a bit of a thing with more affordable vehicles.
Really I dont think RS is a problem, RS is a problem as things pass through the frame
I think you need to work on the stabilisation technology
It might be worth considering an NEX5n as there is so much less mass to stabilise
Ive just bought a KS4 - playing continues..
60p is also a massive de-shaker!
S
One gyro is not really enough and I'm not sure a ks 4 is big enough either.
I've two KS6's, two KS 8's and a KS 12. My latest rig not quite finished yet is with the 12 and a 8 and the option to add the two KS6's. Balance is so important if you are making a rig.
When assessing gyro mount systems and gyro's, so much you see on the web has got post stabilising added.The new 4x4 Kenlab gyro look like they could be a good handheld answer providing you shoot wideish and allow for post stabilising. Where rolling shutter is a problem is any sudden movements from the vehicle you are travelling in, or if the rig gets a pendulum motion (not fully balanced) the image will ripple, or if the vehicle rocks in a way or direction the gyro is not stabilising.
Kevin.
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If you are a working pro then this is how it is in the digital era. Why not use the best tools? Begin flame war in 3, 2, 1 ........
It's really got nothing to do with the digital era. It's always been that way. But I disagree that just because someone is a 'working pro' means they need to be constantly buying new gear. I know 'working pros' who've been working with 'old' gear for years. Hell, Dave Burnett still shoots 4x5. Yeah, yeah, stills vs. video. I think movies are still being made with film though too. ;)
Morgan, I'm not disagreeing that Kevin is looking to do something complex. Or that it can be done on a wing and a prayer. But.... there is another solution that is often more economical. That is to rent.
WRT to video with DSLRs, there are certainly a lot of people making videos that way. Do they have shortcomings? Sure. Everything has pluses and minuses. But inadequacy for 'client work' is a generality that, I don't believe, is accurate. I've made the statement before; when major studios are using DSLRs for high budget productions they can't be all that bad. The cynic will say the studio has been paid to use the DSLRs. I don't know that that's true. I find it difficult to believe a major production company is going to compromise on production quality that much just because a camera maker pays them a few dollars.
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It's really got nothing to do with the digital era. It's always been that way. But I disagree that just because someone is a 'working pro' means they need to be constantly buying new gear. I know 'working pros' who've been working with 'old' gear for years. Hell, Dave Burnett still shoots 4x5. Yeah, yeah, stills vs. video. I think movies are still being made with film though too. ;)
Morgan, I'm not disagreeing that Kevin is looking to do something complex. Or that it can be done on a wing and a prayer. But.... there is another solution that is often more economical. That is to rent.
WRT to video with DSLRs, there are certainly a lot of people making videos that way. Do they have shortcomings? Sure. Everything has pluses and minuses. But inadequacy for 'client work' is a generality that, I don't believe, is accurate. I've made the statement before; when major studios are using DSLRs for high budget productions they can't be all that bad. The cynic will say the studio has been paid to use the DSLRs. I don't know that that's true. I find it difficult to believe a major production company is going to compromise on production quality that much just because a camera maker pays them a few dollars.
Bob,
Complex yes, it might even be impossible to do what I want the conventional way. I think the easy answer could be a degree of gyro stabilising, plus shoot higher quality like 2k/4k and use post for smoothing and zooming to output at 1080.
Having said that the next mount I'm trying has some out of the box thinking (can you still say that or is that last decade?) I think it will do a good job.
Watch this space, I've spent many thousands getting to this stage.
Kevin
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Bob,
Complex yes, it might even be impossible to do what I want the conventional way. I think the easy answer could be a degree of gyro stabilising, plus shoot higher quality like 2k/4k and use post for smoothing and zooming to output at 1080.
Having said that the next mount I'm trying has some out of the box thinking (can you still say that or is that last decade?) I think it will do a good job.
Watch this space, I've spent many thousands getting to this stage.
Kevin
I can see that given the number of gyro units you've got. ;D
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One gyro is not really enough and I'm not sure a ks 4 is big enough either.
Thats where the Nex5n comes in - it is so light so gyros work better
Of course if you have the budget for more/bigger then fine
I just feel the image quality per unit mass may not be a prime value of the 1DX
S
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But inadequacy for 'client work' is a generality that, I don't believe, is accurate. I've made the statement before; when major studios are using DSLRs for high budget productions they can't be all that bad.
Ok. I should have said 'mid level client' work. DSLR work well for 'ducks in the park' and also 'high budget' when you have cine lenses and a puller working from marks, and an external sound guy.
A 'mid level' solo op doing his own focus and sound trying to work with a DSLR can often fall over. Thas is not about image quality, just practicality, monitoring etc.
Also the 'high budget' pick them from a stable of cameras when appropriate to certain shots, for example (prescient in this case?) I believe Shane Halibut used mainly 5ds on his recent film, but switched to (chemical) film for the air to air work?
There are shooting situations where the 1dx probably beasts the alexa - (the dark) so it would be an appropriate choice whatever the budget but the 'mid level client' jobs the operator is generally not choosing from a stable of cameras..
I feel a DSLR is not the best all round tool for video. Is that balanced and fair?
S
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Kevin - you mentioned over shooting (2-4k) and post smoothing
It is worth considering that AFAIK software stabilisation works on low frequency error
So you could correct the roll of a boat (or plane?)
But high frequency error - (induced by contact with the airframe) is pretty much un-curable
Simply if there is a lot of movement in the individual frames they become uncorrectable
Another reason for shooting high FPS (FS100 - FS700) is that the shutter speed is faster so the artifacts (from high frequcy) are cut in half or 4
Certainly you should try 30p for free?
S
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For your amusement here is one of my gyro NEX5n builds
It has 3 axis Isolation and is pretty balanced but still a work in progress..
(http://halfinchrails.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/gyro1.jpg)
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Ok. I should have said 'mid level client' work. DSLR work well for 'ducks in the park' and also 'high budget' when you have cine lenses and a puller working from marks, and an external sound guy.
A 'mid level' solo op doing his own focus and sound trying to work with a DSLR can often fall over. Thas is not about image quality, just practicality, monitoring etc.
Also the 'high budget' pick them from a stable of cameras when appropriate to certain shots, for example (prescient in this case?) I believe Shane Halibut used mainly 5ds on his recent film, but switched to (chemical) film for the air to air work?
There are shooting situations where the 1dx probably beasts the alexa - (the dark) so it would be an appropriate choice whatever the budget but the 'mid level client' jobs the operator is generally not choosing from a stable of cameras..
I feel a DSLR is not the best all round tool for video. Is that balanced and fair?
S
Sure, I think that's better. And I'd agree that a DSLR alone isn't the ideal solution in some cases.
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Sure, I think that's better. And I'd agree that a DSLR alone isn't the ideal solution in some cases.
But if you trawl the net this point of view is seriously under represented, particularly by some of the loudest voices. Caveat Emptor.
S
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Back to viewing size/softness i think its worth having a download of this http://www.eoshd.com/content/9214/the-eoshd-blackmagic-cinema-camera-shootout
the 1dx is not there, but there are some BMC frames that look sharp, while the rest in the main has a general muzz..
S
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Now try it in a helicopter! It's easy to build something you can bounce around in a car and think you have got it sorted. Stick it in a aircraft and it all turns to poo. Then try to get it stabilised and on a mount you can point at a subject rather than just fly-by shots, you solve one problem and create two more!
Kevin.
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Hey Kevin, maybe one of these (http://www.superstudio-aircam.com/sidebar-right-page) is what you need. ;D
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Now try it in a helicopter! It's easy to build something you can bounce around in a car and think you have got it sorted. Stick it in a aircraft and it all turns to poo. Then try to get it stabilised and on a mount you can point at a subject rather than just fly-by shots, you solve one problem and create two more!
Kevin.
Interesting stuff, My test for cars (im well happy most of the time) is changing gears and starting the engine (high frequency vibration) - I think If you get that sorted it will take a heli?
And my thing does point, its basically a mini steadicam with that gimbal
S
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Morgan and Bob,
If you want to stabilise the Nex 5 and are happy with one lens, the problem is well and truly solved with the Zenmuse. It apparently is given Cineflex quality stabilisation. Of course you don't have to fit it to RC flying machines, I've seen it used in full size helicopters. Not a bad price either £5k should get a rig up and running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVEDj667DOA
Kevin.
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Doenst seem to be a very UK friendly website.
It is interesting however
It does not seem, I guess, to stabilise the other three axes which is critical when in contact with the ground
If they had a UK dealer I would go and play..
S
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Doenst seem to be a very UK friendly website.
It is interesting however
It does not seem, I guess, to stabilise the other three axes which is critical when in contact with the ground
If they had a UK dealer I would go and play..
S
They do have uk dealers, I doubt you could go and play. They sell to the RC people that want to build their own flying machines, the chances of them having a demo unit are slim and if they have one it would be on something like a Droidworx multicopter.
If it stabilisers on a wind battered multicopter on the ground it will be very smooth.
Kevin.
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If it stabilisers on a wind battered multicopter on the ground it will be very smooth.
Im not so sure.
Say from a car - you need to take out gear changes for example - fore aft - this only does pan tilt roll?
Like the steadicam gimbal both does PTR and also uses the arm to do height and left-right and fore aft
But very interesting.
My device is smooth - handheld - but hard mounted with no boom-L-R and F-A it is horrid..
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On cameras - I think you should check some BMC footage .. it is sharp
S
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I would have liked to see the BMCC compared with a 2/3" HD camera. BMCC footage looks like video from a high-end broadcast camera like the HDC series.
DSLRs were never sharp for video to begin with, but that's their charm - skin didn't look all that bad.
Dynamic range is overrated. Even Roger Deakins doesn't believe film had more than 10 stops.
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If you want a better more 'intelligent' image stabilizer, check out CoreMelt's Lock & Load (http://www.coremelt.com/products/lock-and-load-x.html)
thanks BTW for this. I downloaded and installed the trial version and it did seem to work better but I never got to far beyond its default settings. Can you expand a bit more? Would it also be better at keeping resolution than FCPX own image stabilization?
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I do not have any direct experience with a comparison to FCP X's stabilization mode to L&L
My guess is that frame by frame it is likely no better or worse. However what particularly impresses about Lock & Load is the 'intelligent' ability to zoom in and out while making the necessary blow-up in order to preserve as much resolution as possible. The settings for that are worth experimenting with.