Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: FredBGG on October 23, 2012, 03:38:18 am
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Phase One has a video on their home page where Frederico Martins is putting the high speed flash sync of the phase one to good use.
http://youtu.be/WjIAd1KcT4E (http://youtu.be/WjIAd1KcT4E)
However he claims that it is impossible to do the same thing (flash with high shutter speed) with a 35mm DSLR. This is not true.
The video even shows him showing that it is not possible with a Nikon.
Well it is possible and it is possible to go even faster than a DF with leaf shutter lenses.
All he needed to do is use the Pocket Wizard Flex TT5 flash sync radio slaves with the hypersync function.
No problem with this setup, direct flash and an aperture of 5.6 (he said he was shooting at 1/1600th at 5.6).
Here is an example of hypersync used with strobe and a 35mm DSLR.
(http://tombolphoto.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/tbolhspeedbl.jpg)
shot at 1/2500, F7.1, ISO 100
(http://tombolphoto.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/8000sec.jpg)
Nikon D300s, 24-70mm, ISO 200, 1/8000 at F5.
See the photographers article here http://tombolphoto.com/blog/more-rangerhypersync-news/ (http://tombolphoto.com/blog/more-rangerhypersync-news/)
Here is another interesting example too though the image was used in a composite, it was still shot outside over poweing the sun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=jYKoNm0cxoY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=jYKoNm0cxoY)
Aslo here is a method without using a Flex TT5 and getting high speed sync with broncolor strobes.
http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/ (http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/)
Now that said it would be interesting to see if it were possible to use hypersync to go even faster using the
focal plane shutter of the DF. It may be a bit of a problem as the duration of the shutter swipe of the DF might be too long due to the flash sync without hypersync and the focal plane shutter is 1/125. Might be possible with a relatively long duration strobe like an Elinchrom 6,000 classic pack or the older 404.
Hypersync does take a bit of callibration. I am getting clean full frame exposure at a 1/4000th of a second using the elinchrom 6,000 pack.
However the 6,000 pack has to use a dual head to use all 6,000 so the duration is not quite as good as the 404 that can discharge in a single tube 4000 head.
I should be able to get a clean 1/800th using a 404 head with the 6,000 pack set to 4,000.
This may sound confusing, but here is how it works.
This is how the shutter works on the D800 for examnple.
At the fastest flash sync, 1/320th the first curtain opens fully. The flash goes off and then the second curtain closes.
For faster shutter speeds the second curtain stats to shut before the first shutter finishes opening.
At 1/8000th of a second this is what happens. The first curtain opens, but 1/8000th of a second after it starts to move the second curtain starts to close.
So there only a crack open between the two curtains. This crack scans over the sensor exposing each pixel for 1/8000th of a second.
To make this work the flash has to be illuminating for the duration of the scan. That is just under 1/320th of a second.
The Flex TT5 is calibrated so as to have the flash illuminating at the right time.
At the very highest speeds there may be a bit of underexposes area at the bottom of the frame. Depends on the flash/camera combination.
While the Phase One leaf shutter systems fastest flash sync speed with the most recent backs is 1/1600th it is simpler to use
and can be used with ultra fast flash.
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FStoppers did a cool basket ball shot with the flex system.
http://vimeo.com/18109690# (http://vimeo.com/18109690#)
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Seeing what happened to the last Phase One video thread, how about moving this one to the 35mm section, dropping the first 6 lines and then calling it "How to use high speed flash sync on DSLR"
Wouldn't that be more beneficial to the community (assuming that is the OP's intention...)
Just a suggestion
Yair
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Seeing what happened to the last Phase One video thread, how about moving this one to the 35mm section, dropping the first 6 lines and then calling it "How to use high speed flash sync on DSLR"
Wouldn't that be more beneficial to the community (assuming that is the actual intention...)
Just one's opinion
Yair
The point of the post is to point out the incorrect statement about it being impossible to do with a 35mm DSLR and backing it up with the facts as well as good examples.
The info would be handy in the 35mm section too, but it is relevant here too.
I think it is relevant to this forum because many contempleting MF are drawn in by the myth of the DF Leaf shutter lens being the only camera system capable of high speed sync. They should be told the whole story.
I also think that it is useful info for those with other medium format systems and happen to also have 35mm systems that need to do high speed sync, letting them know
that they don't necessarily have to upgrade to the DF and LS lenses to do high speed sync. Knowing they can do it with 35mm might be useful to them.
But just to show that my intentions are honest let me add a few more details.
The pros of the Phase One with lea shutter lenses and high speed sync:
-Max megapixel count is 80MP while it is 36MP with the D800 (30MP if its for editorial that tends to be more of a 4x5 crop.)
-The phase one is a 1/1600th of a second exposure that is completed in the 1/1600th. For scientific purposes it is more accurate. A high speed sync with Nikon or Canon is a curtain gap scan it takes more time to complete the full frame exposure with each area receiving 1/4000th for example. There is some subject distortion, but it is minuscule.
-Phase One does not require any calibration. With the Nikon d800 you will have to do a one time calibration for your camera and strobes.
-Phase One system uses all the flash power. 35mm method is a scan so some flash power is lost. However the same depth of field is obtained with faster lenses on 35mm DSLRs.
-Phase system may be able to use some form of hyper sync with the focal plane shutter. If it did it might be able to go one stop faster.
The pros of the Canon /Nikon hypersync option:
-can be used with very compact speedlights
-faster sync speeds
-not restricted to a small amount of lenses
-way less expensive.
(-nikon and canon are looking into leaf shutter lens options... no eta yet)
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The Ranger RX, together with S head and PocketWizard PowerST4 gets you a faster sync than Quadra with S head and Flex TTL.
With PhaseOne, you can use 1/1600 for sync, together with the new Broncolor Move or Profoto B4 at any power setting. You would not be able to do that with HSS because the flash durations need to be long for HSS to work. With most of the Elinchrom units, pack and monolight both, the flash durations don't change much when you reduce power, so you'd be able to use HSS, but you'd still chop away most of the output.
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Wow Fred, you really seem to have an axe to grind.
You even went so far as to submit your Phase One video "gotcha" to the PetaPixel blog...
http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/23/marketing-fail-a-demo-of-af-speed-with-the-lens-set-to-mf/
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is it possible to get faster sync with an elinchrom ranger quadra/5D III?
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Here we go again. It's never ending....
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This really just seems silly IMO.
Not to split hairs but isn't the process explained just high power continuous light? It's coming from a strobe, sure. But the strobe is calibrated to stay on continuously when shooting at a specific Shutter Speed. That being the case, this isn't a flash "Sync" it's a calibrated flash duration to fit a Focal Plane shutters speed.
The end result is about the same, but the methods are very different and the term "High Speed Flash Sync" is still not achieved by the DSLR, it's achieved by the lights.
Big deal, technology changes and advertising always remains the same... I'll leave my pitchfork at home.
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Wow Fred, you really seem to have an axe to grind.
You even went so far as to submit your Phase One video "gotcha" to the PetaPixel blog...
http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/23/marketing-fail-a-demo-of-af-speed-with-the-lens-set-to-mf/
Yup, and please read the comments on the PetaPixel Blog, too. Careful viewers saw how actually the hyper-critical criticism made by Fred over this unremarkable video----was actually what was misleading.
What a waste of time and resources. Medium Format Digital and Fred don't get along. We get that. Get over it already.
I used to think wow, Fred has something credible to say about photography, film-based Fuji GX680 techniques in particular. But then I keep seeing all the same hyper-critical, biased, misleading rants about the entire medium format industry, the same images or images by other photographers (without permission??), and general comments/advice replete with hasty generalizations----and imho, it destroys whatever credibility was once there for any other subject matter.
I just don't understand what's up with all this negativity and paternalistic nonsense. And maybe it's just because I'm such a happy go-lucky guy. I think we need to send Doug Peterson over to give Fred a hug. :-*
imo,
ken
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I'm not sure. I have not tried with a 5d III.
However the 5D III can do so with canon speedlights that support HSS so it is likely that you can.
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If you really want to freeze something fast moving, nothing works better than short flash duration strobes.
Flash is just a different animal than any type of high speed shutter and not only holds detail but allows for more unique light shaping.
I've shot movement of people forever and every project requires a different technique. 1/4000th of so of flash duration will usually make a cleaner sharper image.
I think this is an apples to apples conversation, because whether your using a medium format camera with Leaf shutters that cuts into the flash duration, or a pocket wizard that allows front and rear curtain to cut into a flash duration your still "cutting in the flash duration" and in a sense losing power and treating the flash as a continuous source.
What isn't mentioned here is who uses one camera for all kind of projects? I don't, I really can't because a 35mm camera is a much different device than a medium format camera and so much more goes into the look of the file, not just freezing action or trying to find out which system "beats" the other system in one specific function.
You know, this type of conversation just rages on, with one side dead sure than their 35mm is the only camera in the world to shoot any project in the world, others will tell you the opposite with their medium format cameras.
I know I just find all of this silly and also know it will rage on until Michael comes on board and shows his usually common sense approach and closes the thread.
In my view, the best way I know to make this type of thread interesting is to show well crafted images, not just tests shot in the backyard.
Our Contax's shoot a slow sync, around 1/90th to 1/125 and we've shot fast action in studio with a stylized look.
Why not go to 35mm? Because I wanted the depth of a ccd camera's file, I needed at the time the ability to pul back and crop.
What I did was rather than push hard to prove a contax is better than a Nikon or a Hasselblad is better than a Leaf, I took what I owned, used flash that was appropriate for the look, tested to be sure of the result and shot the job . . . oh yea also got paid.
It's easy to say what won't my camera do, but it's more beneficial to post how something can be done and why.
This photo was shot at full speed by a Tennis Pro. He hits the ball so hard the tennis ball moved the catch canvas mounted on rollers.
We tested with different flash, wanted some movement on the tennis racket (it has been enhanced in retouching) but also need the body in focus.
I believe we achieved both using monolights, testing at different power to change the duration.
(http://spotsinthebox.com/022rr_sport_tenis.jpg)
Contax 645, P30+
This image was shot with a Nikon D3 at very high ISO a 300 mm lens wide open.
Though it looks like reportage it was shot for a commercial client to achieve a certain style and look so scouting and camera position was as important as the camera itself.
To me the only difference between this image and the tennis player was the location and creative brief. Obviously they're not going to let me set up high speed strobes in a world meet in Osaka, but we scouted for hours to find the exact spot to give a more stylized lighting look.
(http://spotsinthebox.com/sanya_fast.jpg)
Would I use the Contax for this image, probably not without lighting and other tricks, but I didn't throw my medium format cameras away just because I used 35mm.
IMO
BC
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I still maintain that this thread belongs to a different section....
In the video the OP refers to, the photographer states more than once that he is using the system so that he can achieve a shallow DOF while somewhat controlling the ambient sun light. He is not talking about freezing motion.
This is easily done with the system he shoots on and NOT so easily done with 35mm. The samples shown by the OP are not what we can call shallow DOF images.
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NOT so easily done with 35mm
It's not that hard to use an ND filter. Certainly it's less desirable than shooting with a clear and unobstructed viewfinder, but not a huge difference IMHO. MFD has a lot of other benefits that set it apart, the leaf shutter sync speed isn't really the key selling point.
I've played around a bunch with the Pocket Wizard "hypersync" stuff trying to match flash duration against sync speed. It's mostly a fools errand where you've got limited control, no ability to meter the strobe, and no guarantee that it will work with your particular strobe/camera. Personally I think the only reason to even worry about extreme sync speeds is when you need to freeze motion when you've got a strong ambient contribution to the moving portion of the image.
Anyhow, here's a ND filter snapshot from a few years ago... Elinchrom Ranger and indirect softbox against hard sunlight rim at f/1.2. Shot with a 6 stop ND filter, and was still able to use autofocus.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/sheldonnalos/_32O6480-Edit.jpg)
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I still maintain that this thread belongs to a different section....
In the video the OP refers to, the photographer states more than once that he is using the system so that he can achieve a shallow DOF while somewhat controlling the ambient sun light. He is not talking about freezing motion.
This is easily done with the system he shoots on and NOT so easily done with 35mm. The samples shown by the OP are not what we can call shallow DOF images.
Shallow depth of field can be done with 35mm DSLR.
Here is a shot I linked to in my previous posts:
(http://www.prophotonut.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/flash10.jpg)
Photo ProPhotoNut
Here is the link to the article that I previously posted:
[url]http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/[url]
Shot at 1/8000th f2.8 Canon 100mm 2.8 macro with broncolor flash pack. Canon 5D mark II 36x24 sensor.
That will produce as shallow a depth of field than a 110mm at 5.6 on a 44x33 sensor, maybe more shallow.
Could have been shot with a faster lens too.
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One thing to keep in mind is that metering can be a bit complicated with mixed light.
With the Phase One system if you are using a flash with a duration equal too or shorter than the shutter speed It will be easier to use a hand held meter.
This is because all the flash duration exposes the sensor.
With 35mm you need to use a longer duration flash. The not all the flash duration is captured and with faster speeds you "waste" power.
This though is not much of an issue with digital as you just have to take a few extra test shots to check your exposure.
With the Phase One system using flashed with longer flash duration would lead to light loss at the fastest speeds.
If the flash duration is say 1/400th and you shoot at 1/1600th you will lose upto 2 stops due to the shutter being open for about 1/4 of the flash duration.
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Hello
Just tried the technique out lined in the link below in my studio and bugger me it works.
http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/
I was getting 1,600th sec flash sync with my Bowens Estime generator.
Cheers
Simon
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Try shooting a single strobe head against a bare wall or seamless. Depending on how slow/fast your flash duration is, you may see a top to bottom gradient of uneven exposure across the short side of the image frame. This can be caused by the power of the strobe pulse ramping up and fading off as the shutter moves across the frame. Even at 1/1600 shutter speed the exposure still takes about 1/200 for the shutter to move from one end of the image to the other.
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These two methods are very different from each other.
One is traditional flash sync which can be used with any flash unit at any setting with minimal fuss. The other is a unit-specific trigger-timing modification to drag the shutter along the length of the flash curve for a particular power setting. Both are useful tools. But they are not the same thing.
Also, with the hypersync option you either lose a lot of light, or you have uneven illumination throughout the frame (or both). This may not matter for some uses, and in some uses it may even be preferable (e.g. acting as a defacto graduated ND filter on a male portrait to darken the forehead a la Star Trek TOS (http://www.letswatchstartrek.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Picture-211.png)).
Anyway, citing this as an example of dishonesty on behalf of Phase One is just really silly. Where will your witch hunt take you next? Perhaps you can lead a discussion on how Phase One is lying to everyone because they call their kit lens an 80mm when the specification sheets clearly states it is a 79.25mm lens.
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Anyway, citing this as an example of dishonesty on behalf of Phase One is just really silly. Where will your witch hunt take you next? Perhaps you can lead a discussion on how Phase One is lying to everyone because they call their kit lens an 80mm when the specification sheets clearly states it is a 79.25mm lens.
Now you did it. Just couldn't leave well enough alone :D
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Hello,
Just do a quick test with my Bowens Estime slowest flash speed is 429th Sec.
Nikon D800E+50mm F1.4G lens
Cheers
Simon
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I use my 580EXii on my 645DF... Just saying. ;) I fail to see how PhaseOne have lied. I'm not suggesting the future might be different, Canikon may in the future decide to make a few leaf shutter style lenses (though I doubt it). I'd imagine they'd need a few more lens registers to do that.
Fred suggested the difference is small, yet, the reality is the difference is undeterminable as it's entirely reliant on conditions of the photo. Additionally, while high speed sync could be used in a studio it's never really pushed to its limit there (as far as models and general shoots go).
Ultimately it comes down to the raw explanation of what flash sync is referred to in the industry. (and I site Broncolor and ProPhoto as examples... Broncolor used t0.1 lighting to refer to their flash durations but have gone to t0.5 because that's what industry uses)
Flash sync refers to the time the sensor is entirely exposed to the image.
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Anyway, citing this as an example of dishonesty on behalf of Phase One is just really silly. Where will your witch hunt take you next? Perhaps you can lead a discussion on how Phase One is lying to everyone because they call their kit lens an 80mm when the specification sheets clearly states it is a 79.25mm lens.
Who's citing this as an example of dishonesty on behalf of Phase One? I certainly did not in this thread. Simply pointed out that the photographer is wrong in claiming that it is not possible to do this
with a few other cameras. He simply may not have been aware of other methods.
However now that you bring this up....
Phase One does write the following on the page with the video......
Frederico explains and shows how his unique images can only be created with an ultra fast flash sync of 1/1600s. This feature is unique to Phase One camera systems with Schneider Kreuznach leaf shutter lenses.
It's true that only Phase One has a leaf shutter system that reached 1/1600th. However it is also true that the same results could be obtained with a Hasselblad H4D, twice the flash power and a simple neutral density filter.
If you are working at 5.6. direct and a slow camera twice the flash power is not really a problem at all. Working in bright sunlight with an ND filter of one stop is also not a problem. The photos are quite posed and static so the difference between a 1/800th and a 1/1600th would not effect the image much a one stop ND filter and more flash power balances things out, bringing you at the same fstop. I would not go as far as calling this blatant lying, but it isn't exactly accurate.
Phase does do it "one stop better", but saying it can only be crated with ultra fast flash sync of 1/1600th of a second is at least an exaggeration.
Does the Phase One do this better and easier... yes, but only by one stop.
That said the Phase One does have the advantage of having both a leaf Shutter and a focal plane shutter. This lets you shoot non flash related work at up to 1/4000th of a second. Definitely a plus compared to a Hasselblad.
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Just re-watched it to check. Can this flash sync trick work with studio strobes?
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Hello,
Just do a quick test with my Bowens Estime slowest flash speed is 429th Sec.
Nikon D800E+50mm F1.4G lens
Cheers
Simon
Nice. This calls for a video quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkjD3D5FgmE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkjD3D5FgmE) ;)
With a FlexTT5 and the timing adjustments you can make you may be able to clean up the 1/1600th to get the same result you are getting with the 1/800th of a second.
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So what's wrong with me using my Hasselblad H3DII and any lens at 1/800th in full day sunlight?
Shooting with a Quadra or regular Ranger pack, i do it all the time. Setup takes less than a minute. What point is the OP trying to make? You'd rather fumble with some hack than use the real thing? I don't get it...
Instead of talking crap numbers all day, here are some photographs. You know, from people who actually photograph for a living...
(Couples are not so stunning like models are, i'll be the first to admit... )
All shot in strong afternoon sun, but made to look like evening sun...
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8467/8113752372_52ce981eaf_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8113752372/)
Sayjal-Santosh-Engagement-10 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8113752372/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8331/8113752234_c23f7379a5_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8113752234/)
Sayjal-Santosh-Engagement-12 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8113752234/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8462/8055327223_4d0c1e8c6a_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8055327223/)
Hilary-Justin-Flying-Bridge-Hyannis-Wedding-208 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8055327223/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8449/8055327313_576404bf36_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8055327313/)
Hilary-Justin-Flying-Bridge-Hyannis-Wedding-203 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8055327313/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8175/7891679448_124cd2d9ed_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/7891679448/)
Boston-Wedding-Photography-Blog-19 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/7891679448/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8167/7601327592_e02e8a2215_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/7601327592/)
Nima-Sagar-Newport-Indian-Wedding032 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/7601327592/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
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Hello,
The point is for me that thanks to Fred I have seen a technique to get faster flash sync with a Nikon D800E if I so choose to do so. I have a Mamiya RZ with leaf shutter so I now have the best of both worlds.
Cheers
Simon
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So what's wrong with me using my Hasselblad H3DII and any lens at 1/800th in full day sunlight?
Shooting with a Quadra or regular Ranger pack, i do it all the time. Setup takes less than a minute. What point is the OP trying to make? You'd rather fumble with some hack than use the real thing? I don't get it...
Instead of talking crap numbers all day, here are some photographs. You know, from people who actually photograph for a living...
(Couples are not so stunning like models are, i'll be the first to admit... )
All shot in strong afternoon sun, but made to look like evening sun...
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8467/8113752372_52ce981eaf_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8113752372/)
Sayjal-Santosh-Engagement-10 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8113752372/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8331/8113752234_c23f7379a5_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8113752234/)
Sayjal-Santosh-Engagement-12 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8113752234/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8462/8055327223_4d0c1e8c6a_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8055327223/)
Hilary-Justin-Flying-Bridge-Hyannis-Wedding-208 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8055327223/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8449/8055327313_576404bf36_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8055327313/)
Hilary-Justin-Flying-Bridge-Hyannis-Wedding-203 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/8055327313/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8175/7891679448_124cd2d9ed_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/7891679448/)
Boston-Wedding-Photography-Blog-19 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/7891679448/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8167/7601327592_e02e8a2215_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/7601327592/)
Nima-Sagar-Newport-Indian-Wedding032 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/7601327592/) by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto (http://www.flickr.com/people/symbolphotography/), on Flickr
Actually Brendan one of the points I made is that the effect can be done with other cameras and I pointed out that the Hasselblad does what the Phase One does, but just one stop slower.
My point is that it is not an effect that is only possible with the Phase One as Phase One would like people to believe.
You excellent photos are a damn good example of that and thanks for posting them!
You are right that the way you can do this with a leaf shutter is simpler, but I also wanted to point out that those that don't have a leaf shutter system can also get the same results.
Each method has it's advantages and limitations.
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You wouldn't catch me with brides/grooms trying to fumble with triggers and settings... by the time i got to the right settings, i'd lose all my time with them...
Just sayin'. Nevermind the inaccuracies of metering, losing all the power you paid for in that power pack of yours... just doesn't add up. In the end, it'd be cheaper to go out and buy an X100 and sync to 1/4000th and call it a day instead of fiddling with this sync crap.
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You wouldn't catch me with brides/grooms trying to fumble with triggers and settings... by the time i got to the right settings, i'd lose all my time with them...
Just sayin'. Nevermind the inaccuracies of metering, losing all the power you paid for in that power pack of yours... just doesn't add up. In the end, it'd be cheaper to go out and buy an X100 and sync to 1/4000th and call it a day instead of fiddling with this sync crap.
It's actually quite simple once one has worked out the settings for the camera and flash setup.
That said due to the flash power loss with high speed synch with a 35mm DSLR it is going to be more suited to shallow depth of filed work... exactly what the photographer in the video was talking about.
Good idea pointing out the X100 as an option for someone exploring this type of lighting style.
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(Couples are not so stunning like models are, i'll be the first to admit... )
I'd say you did a beautiful job...
The couple may not be as "stunning" like models, but I'm sure those images you took will be cherished for many many years
unlike most fashion photos.......
Both worthy types of photos... ;)
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troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.
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troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.
Looking for a LIKE Button!
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troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.
Looking for a LIKE Button!
+1
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You wouldn't catch me with brides/grooms trying to fumble with triggers and settings... by the time i got to the right settings, i'd lose all my time with them...
Just sayin'. Nevermind the inaccuracies of metering, losing all the power you paid for in that power pack of yours... just doesn't add up. In the end, it'd be cheaper to go out and buy an X100 and sync to 1/4000th and call it a day instead of fiddling with this sync crap.
Hi Brendan,
I agree, nice work by the way. One thing those high speed sync fans should also consider, flash color output is not constant during flash duration. It is shifting from high K to low K, if exposed to the whole frame like with a leaf shutter lens you´ll achieve the intended daylight color, if you use a focal plane shutter this may become an issue. If you light the complete frame like shown in these pictures, you´ll be far better served with the "real thing".
Cheers, Ulf
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flash color output is not constant during flash duration. It is shifting from high K to low K
Exactly, we can see it in Simon's samples above...
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Exactly, we can see it in Simon's samples above...
Not exactly. If you actually look at all three images the one with more color cast is the one taken without a high speed sync.
The three different shots actually have about the same amount of color variation, each have an overall different cast, but the variation within each photo are the same.
There is some unevenness but if that unevenness were due to the flash it would be an unevenness only from top to bottom
following the direction of the shutter.
Being that within each photo the color cast variation is about the same there is not a color issue caused by capturing color that changes durring the shutter curtain pass.
If the flash duration is long enough the exposure can be timed to take place over a consistent part of the flash duration.
One that is setup it works fine. No as easy as doing it with the Phase one, but many many times less expensive and with a vastly wider range of lenses such as the really fast 50s, 85s, and 200s offered by 35mm DLSRs, not to mention all the zooms, tilt shifts.
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troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.
+1
Looking for a "Like" or "Troll" button....
:)
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(http://forums.dpreview.com/files/w/TS560x560?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gbsoftinc.com%2Fgbloncourt%2FDSC07917.jpg&signature=0JszLcJrxxr1ER2EwEsGfS/elO4=)
1/5000 at f4.0
This guy is doing high speed sync with Sony SLR cameras using an Optical Hot Shoe Trigger and Strobes with pocket wizards.
How he did it:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/2519553
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Seems to me the that this problem had been solved years ago for use with flash bulbs with focal plane shutters.
Speed Graphics, early Nikon F's and Pentax etc had M and FP sync settings (as well as X) for longer burning flash bulbs that triggered before the 1st blind opened.
If you wanted to get the same effect now without using PocketWizards it would probably quite simple for your Canon / Nikon's to program the cameras with firmware (if the was seen to be a need) so that flash sync was triggered before 1st blind opened - as a custom menu option ? All that would then be needed is a flash unit that with a flash duration that is quite slow (say longer than 1/200th sec) to achieve a fully exposed frame with a focal plane shutter on a high speed setting.
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Seems to me the that this problem had been solved years ago for use with flash bulbs with focal plane shutters.
Speed Graphics, early Nikon F's and Pentax etc had M and FP sync settings (as well as X) for longer burning flash bulbs that triggered before the 1st blind opened.
If you wanted to get the same effect now without using PocketWizards it would probably quite simple for your Canon / Nikon's to program the cameras with firmware (if the was seen to be a need) so that flash sync was triggered before 1st blind opened - as a custom menu option ? All that would then be needed is a flash unit that with a flash duration that is quite slow (say longer than 1/200th sec) to achieve a fully exposed frame with a focal plane shutter on a high speed setting.
All you need to do to get the Nikon to go to FP sync is to put a high speed sync speedlight flash on the camera. You can set it to manual at 128th power and just use it to trigger the the strobes, either with a flash slave and cable or flash slave and wireless transmitter for convenience.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kHUgme-5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg[/url]It may actually not be necessary to use a flash slave. It's possible that when a speedlight with FP is put on the camera that the cameras PC connector will trigger for FP.If this is the case one could use the smallest speedlight with FP ability to keep size down. The small flash would have no problem keeping up as the power can be set to manual 128th. On a Nikon one could use an SB-600 or SU-800 commander to keep things light.It would be very nice though to have an manual FP setting in the cameras menu. adding manual FP to this menu list would be great.[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Nq85QbIHlLU/TpRuZz8VrVI/AAAAAAAAAjA/_QHTEzs2_AA/s1600/FlashSyncSpeed.jpg)
Currently the D800 and other FP capable Nikons only have it as an auto setting when an FP capable flash or commander is attached.
The Pocket wizard Flextt5 can be set to tell the the d800 to fire in FP mode without an FP capable Nikon flash connected. It also has the advantage of having some timing adjustments so as to fine tune the fastest shutter speeds.
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Some interesting work here too....
Speed lights high speed sync motocross shoot.
http://youtu.be/xNDAINwhTWU (http://youtu.be/xNDAINwhTWU)
Look how in the video footage the bikers are dark silhouettes furring the jumps at the end of the video.
Here he is shooting surfers with a long lens.
http://youtu.be/cP6a47BQA70 (http://youtu.be/cP6a47BQA70)
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pfff
I've shot up to 1/4000 with the Fuji X10 and a Ranger Quadra....... so what.
The TT5/TT1 system seems to work fine unless you dive into the theory behind it.... you can ONLY get that speed with the slower strobes like the S heads or D-lites (within the Elinchrom system), as soon as you use the faster strobes it doesn't work, it will top out at app 1/320 on the 5DMKII for example.
In the end however it doesn't matter.
Just make images.
I'm shooting Fuji, Sony (A99), Phase One DF/Leaf and I'm more than happy with all of them and I don't give a sh*t about what their advertising says, I just love all my cameras in certain situations....Learn how to use it and when and you will know the tools.
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... and I'm more than happy with all of them and I don't give a sh*t about what their advertising says, I just love all my cameras in certain situations....Learn how to use it and when and you will know the tools.
Exactly!
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pfff
.....Phase One DF/Leaf and I'm more than happy with all of them and I don't give a sh*t about what their advertising says....
You don't give a sh*t about what their advertising says..... Your words not mine...
However you do work closely with and for Leaf:
Quotes from your website:
Frank works closely together with Elinchrom, Leaf and Epson and is promoting their products on exhibitions and in specialized workshops.
Frank has also been involved in several advertising campaigns for Elinchrom, Leaf and recently Sym which are run in several countries worldwide.
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I still maintain that this thread belongs to a different section....
In the video the OP refers to, the photographer states more than once that he is using the system so that he can achieve a shallow DOF while somewhat controlling the ambient sun light. He is not talking about freezing motion.
This is easily done with the system he shoots on and NOT so easily done with 35mm. The samples shown by the OP are not what we can call shallow DOF images.
He says it's impossible to do so with a DSLR.
It is totally possible with a 35mm DSLR and the right technique. Actually you can achieve shallower depth of field and high speed sync with a 35mm DSLR because you can reach faster shutter speeds and you are not limited to 1/1600th. 1/8000th of a second is achievable with the D800. Also due to the way things work with high speed sync on a DSLR
more flash power is lost as the shutter speed increases. This actually helps towards shooting flash at with very wide apertures.
And here is is being done at f2.8 and 1/8000th with Broncolor studio strobes.
http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/ (http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/)
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The TT5/TT1 system seems to work fine unless you dive into the theory behind it.... you can ONLY get that speed with the slower strobes like the S heads or D-lites (within the Elinchrom system), as soon as you use the faster strobes it doesn't work, it will top out at app 1/320 on the 5DMKII for example.
The TT5/TT1 is not really doing anything particularly special. What it is doing is telling the camera to go into FP flash sync timing. This makes the cameras sync go off before the second curtain starts to move. All that is required for this to work is a flash speed that is sufficiently long to still be illuminating the sensor until the second curtain fully closes.
There are many many studio flash heads that have sufficiently long flash duration's. They also don't have to be that long. a flash duration of 1/400th is slow enough.
It is also important to note that despite requiring a slightly longer flash duration the effective exposure will be that of the shutter setting and motion will be freezed accordingly.
This will produce better freezing of motion with a DSLR at 1/8000th than the top limit of 1/1600th. With very fast movement this will produce a sharper photo.
It's also important to point out that using the Pocket Wizard TT5 is only one of the methods available for high speed sync on a 35mm DSLR.
It can be done using an on camera Auto FP capable flash used to trigger a flash slave (flash photo cell about $8) connected to a studio strobe with a sync cord.
The on camera flash can be set to manual at 1/128th of a second and pointed away from the subject or covered so as not to expose the subject. The on camera flash is only used to expose the flash slave and make the camera go into Auto FP.
Regarding auto FP... I have discussed the possibility of adding a manual FP setting to the menu on Nikon auto FP capable cameras with Nikon.
It is possible and if they get enough requests it will be added. At this point all you will have to do is connect the camera to your strobes with a sync cable.
What is also very important to point out is that the high speed sync ability of the Phase One DF and Mamiya DF is limited to a relatively small range of leaf shutter lenses.
With 35mm high speed sync methods you can use any lens.
While some photographers may need to buy a different flash head for their studio strobes it is going to be far less expensive than buying a Phase One System which is what Phase One leads you to believe.
Leaf Credo 40MP Digital SLR Camera Kit with 80mm f/2.8 LS D Lens $ 26,095.00
Adding an S head to an Elinchrom setup..... I picked up a mint S head for under $200 to add to the 12 I already have.
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It may actually not be necessary to use a flash slave. It's possible that when a speedlight with FP is put on the camera that the cameras PC connector will trigger for FP.
I can confirm this works - it's how I usually do it. Put an SB800 set to FP on the camera, connect a PW or other radio trigger to the camera PC port and fire away.
I just did a quick test, 1/8000s f/2 with & without FP mode. (Note, the SB800 is not contributing to the exposure - it's only function is to trigger FP sync mode.)
She's sitting in direct sun coming from behind. First shot is in FP mode, with a studio strobe hitting her from opposite the sun. Second shot is with standard sync, only the sunlight is showing since the flash doesn't hit the sensor.
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Thanks for the confirmation Alan.
Also Pixel makes a wireless trigger called the Pixel King. It's capable of Auto FP and a pair of them cost about $ 175.
If someone does not need the wireless part they can use a single Pixel King and a wire sync cord. The pixel king would just be a lightwieght
way of getting the camera into Auto FP mode. A manual FP menu setting would be even lighter ;)
Also if someone does not need the top of the line SB-800 or SB-910 they can use an SB-600. Also the smaller SU-800 commander should do the job.
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Why do you keep thinking I'm sponsored to say good things ?
I'm maybe very simplistic in my approach, I look at what the system can do for me and I base my decision on that, it's a known fact that adds never are 100% true..... Or do you really think that all other brands are 100% true in their adds ?
Also to reach the speeds on a DSLR you need an extra device (it's not a system solution) plus its not the same as what a MF with leaf shutters does. So I fact they are right. It's just how you read it, and as mentioned before I never read adds when you're spending this kind of money you should be smart and get a good dealer and decide what counts for you.
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Why do you keep thinking I'm sponsored to say good things ?
Where did I say that?
I simply pointed out that it is a bit unusual that you say you don't give sh*t about what they say in their ads when you are involved in them.
Quotes from your website:
Frank works closely together with Elinchrom, Leaf and Epson and is promoting their products on exhibitions and in specialized workshops.
Frank has also been involved in several advertising campaigns for Elinchrom, Leaf and recently Sym which are run in several countries worldwide.
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As mentioned before I will just investigate the system myself and buy what I think works for me.
If I would believe the adds I would be the best photographer in the world, because that's what some brands promise :D
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Also to reach the speeds on a DSLR you need an extra device (it's not a system solution)
Absolutely not true. An extra non system device is not needed for the D800. All you need to do is put a Nikon system flash
on the camera to put the camera into Auto FP mode and plug a sync cable or wireless trigger into the cameras PC port.
Also if we are talking about system integrated solutions Phase One / Leaf have nothing that comes close to the Nikon or Canon Speed light systems.
Totally system integrated flashes. Joe McNally's work with the Nikon CLS is a damn good example.
Control the flash setting right on camera. Soon this control will be able to be done through the camera using an tablet or smart phone.
This can also be done with a Nikon SU-800 commander.
http://vimeo.com/31363352 (http://vimeo.com/31363352)
While I have a vast Elinchrom Studio Flash system I also use the Nikon CLS system and previously the Canon Speedlight system.
With my Elinchrom AS 3000 packs with the IR remote I can fine tune my lighting ratios right from behind the camera.
I like the ability to do that right on the camera with the Nikon Speedlight system. That is system integration... and all in a small bag.
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There are three type of photographers that do endorsements.
1. The most visible are the ones that look for endorsements first, then try or use the project depending on what the endorsements pay. That's there main business model and if it works for them then that's the purpose of a free market.
2. The next are photographers that actually have used the equipment, but will only use it full time if for paid endorsements and or given or loaned the equipment for further long term use.
3. The last and probably most informative are the photographers that buy and use the equipment first and then are asked to do endorsements based on their work with the equipment.
Without knowing all the specifics Frank seems to fall into the last group, which is much easier to take and more valid to believe.
Now whether anyone believes endorsements or not is their business and like any high priced item everyone should try before they buy, or at least do some serious research before they buy.
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It doesn't move me an inch if someone endorses something or not. I base all my buying decisions on my use, sometimes I'm right, sometimes I have to make changes, but that's the way of life.
When I bought my Red cameras I never cared if Peter Jackson used them. I needed a deep raw file for multi cam projects and RED was the only option.
When I bought my Nikons there were not a reflection on my Canons as I use the cameras in different projects, same for my phase backs, same for my contax, same for my next camera purchase, whether that be an H5d or a Canon 1dx.
They are all very different devices that do very different things and though I might someday buy a D800 (at least I will eventually test one next year if my schedule permits), I doubt seriously if I will use them to replace my current cameras.
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Bottom line is I know about 20 good photographers and none of them use exactly the same equipment combinations including cameras, lenses, lights, supports etc.
They use what works for them, they use what works for the project, but most of them test first, buy second.
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Second bottom line is to find a good dealer. Sure you can shop around and sometimes save what looks like substantial money, but in the long term, you'll nearly always pay more, because when any issue arrives you're on your on.
Also working without a dealer really doesn't build relationships or equity. Personal equity is the key to successful business, whether your the client or the supplier.
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I'll summarize this by saying that if you work a number of years, you'll always have some issues with equipment and/or suppliers. It happens and there are two ways to deal with it.
Find a positive solution and move forward, or stay in the past and continue to diss a brand or product which really doesn't make anyone any money or move anyone's work forward.
Never discount positive equity.
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Everyone shoots and works differently but freezing motion can come in a lot of ways.
This image was frozen at 1/90th of a second with a Cotnax and Phase back, by just tracking with the subject.
(http://spotsinthebox.com/rock_jump_1.jpg)
This image was purposely shot at slower shutter speed to accentuate speed.
(http://spotsinthebox.com/hk_run_1.jpg)
There are more than one way to work.
IMO
BC
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_____________________________________________
Second bottom line is to find a good dealer. Sure you can shop around and sometimes save what looks like substantial money, but in the long term, you'll nearly always pay more, because when any issue arrives you're on your on.
Also working without a dealer really doesn't build relationships or equity. Personal equity is the key to successful business, whether your the client or the supplier.
_____________________________________________
I'll summarize this by saying that if you work a number of years, you'll always have some issues with equipment and/or suppliers. It happens and there are two ways to deal with it.
Find a positive solution and move forward, or stay in the past and continue to diss a brand or product which really doesn't make anyone any money or move anyone's anyone forward.
Never discount positive equity.
IMO
BC
I do not discount positive equity at all. The difference is that I place my "allegiance" (for lack of a better word) is more with photographers and not manufacturers that peddle misinformation or try to get new photographers to buy into their marketing BS.... like the myth that you need MF digital and other big guns to be taken seriously.
Like this bullshit from Hasselblad....
There is never any time like the present to start building for the future. And if you think 35mm is good enough for this stage of your career, then you’d better hope that your clients are also willing to settle for “good enough”. The best clients, however, are almost never willing to settle for “good enough”. And why should they, when there are photographers out there who can provide the best? And providing the best is what Hasselblad and the new H5D are all about
Or Phase One featuring a video on their home page claiming that high speed flash sync is IMPOSSIBLE with a DSLR.
Regarding the Hasselblad statement it is really interesting when this is what a comparison between a top DSLR and a Hasselblad looks like.
(http://photigy.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/NikonD800-face-crop1.jpg)
(http://photigy.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Hasselblad-h4d40-vs-face-crop-1.jpg)
both are crops from this framing:
(http://www.photigy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Nikon-d800e-test-review-sample-image.jpg)
Credit www.photigy.com
One is 35mm DSLR and one is MF digital.
Personally I find the equity and relationship I build with photographers through sharing knowledge far more fruitful from both a business standpoint and a know how standpoint
than dealer relationships.
I also prefer to work with equipment that comes from companies that don't work behind a dealer smoke screen.
Both Nikon and Canon have excellent professorial services setups. Their gear is stable and not buggy. I do not need a dealer/shrink/life coach/which doctor to keep things running smoothly.
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There are more than one way to work.
IMO
BC
Exactly the whole point of this thread.
The video says it is impossible to do hi speed sync with a DSLR, Phase One even features this video on their home page.
But the truth is not that.
There are more ways to work.
Oh and on a lighter note there is this:
http://youtu.be/O9xRhwmHBBE (http://youtu.be/O9xRhwmHBBE)
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I can confirm this works - it's how I usually do it. Put an SB800 set to FP on the camera, connect a PW or other radio trigger to the camera PC port and fire away.
I just did a quick test, 1/8000s f/2 with & without FP mode. (Note, the SB800 is not contributing to the exposure - it's only function is to trigger FP sync mode.)
She's sitting in direct sun coming from behind. First shot is in FP mode, with a studio strobe hitting her from opposite the sun. Second shot is with standard sync, only the sunlight is showing since the flash doesn't hit the sensor.
I just did a test similar to this.
Flash Elinchrom 6,000 w/s pack.
Elinchrom X 6000 N double tube flash head.
SB-910 set to manual at 1/128th power covered just on the camera to activate Auto FP mode.
Nikon D800 connected via a flash sync cable to the Elinchrom flash pack.
So I can give this some more accurate numbers I did a test with the D800 and Elinchrom strobes.
Here is the setup
Flash Elinchrom 6,000 w/s pack.
Elinchrom X 6000 N double tube flash head.
SB-910 set to manual at 1/128th power covered just on the camera to activate Auto FP mode.
Nikon D800 connected via a flash sync cable to the Elinchrom flash pack.
The result is even exposure over the full frame at all flash pack power setting with no color shift.
I tested all shutter speeds from 1/320 all the way to 1/8000th
Flash pack power setting from 1/16th to full power.
To get an idea of flexibility with the head at 20ft I could shoot correct exposure at 1/1600th at f16 all the way to 1/8000th at f1.4
The fact that the focal plane shutter "wastes" flash power at high sync speeds actually gives range than working with the Phase One.
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I did a similar test.
Same setup, but with the Elinchron 3000 Micro AS. This is not an old flash system.
It's Elinchrom's top of the line fully asymmetric digitally controlled flash pack. It goes from 188w/s to 3000w/s total (as low as 64w/s if 3 heads are connected.
With the S-Head 1/1,600th has an aperture range from f3.5 to F16
With the S-Head 1/8,000th has an aperture range from f1.4 to F8
With the x 3000 N twin tube head using one tube 1/1,600th has an aperture of f2.8 at 188ws
With the x 3000 N twin tube head using one tube 1/8,000th has an aperture range of f1.4 to f8. However if I discharges the same 3,000 w/s total (2x 1,500) I could get F11
So I get an exposure change by simply adding the second tube. This is because it speeds up the flash duration putting more of the light into the shutter scan time.
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I also did a test with an A 3000 N. The high speed flash head.
With this head I could not get an even exposure over the whole frame.
However no area was completely dark. It may be possible to adjust this by using the timming adjustments with a Pocket wizard Flex TT%, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
How I have to order an couple more s-heads.
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\
I also prefer to work with equipment that comes from companies that don't work behind a dealer smoke screen.
Both Nikon and Canon have excellent professorial services setups. Their gear is stable and not buggy. I do not need a dealer/shrink/life coach/which doctor to keep things running smoothly.
It all depends on your experience.
I find my dealings with equipment to be 180 degrees from yours.
I've worked with manufacturers and dealers.
Steve Hendrix of CI is great, his company owner Dave Gallagher the same, Doug who moved to New York is incredibly knowledgable, Yair of Leaf more than beyond the call anytime i asked.
Each has their own specialty in talents, knowledge and product lines and all should be respected for what they offer online and even if they all have a positive view of the products they represent, that doesn't mean their not honest and know their product lines very well.
Now none of my dealings with anyone I've mentioned have always been huggy kissy as we all have strong personalities and opinions. Regardless I still work with them, prove it with my purchases and recommendations and will continue to do so.
Consequently a few years ago with the dslr C brand I and many others had issues with overcooked processors dropping and corrupting files. After working my way up the food chain, neither the big camera dealer I bought all of my 35mm digital bodies from, or the maker's professional service offered any resolve for months. Actually the maker never really would admit there was a problem and finally came to the solution to slow down the camera preview.
Even with those issues I still purchase and own the C-brand because I don't believe in cutting off my nose to spite my face.
But . . . back to the dealers I mentioned. Yes at times it can be a little consuming to go through an intermediate party, but the up side is these dealers all have a view of future sales and react accordingly. They also value the equity they put into their clients and I assume most of their clients reciprocate.
Fred, I don't know your specific issues and dealer/manufacturer resolve with your medium format equipment, but I'll bet had you bought through the dealers and the factory rep I mentioned your outcome would have been much more positive.
And Fred, also understand I don't write this to defend any one dealer or brand, but I really, really hope this reply isn't used as a segway to start trashing any one camera brand.
IMO
BC
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Fred, I don't know your specific issues and dealer/manufacturer resolve with your medium format equipment, but I'll bet had you bought through the dealers and the factory rep I mentioned your outcome would have been much more positive.
And Fred, also understand I don't write this to defend any one dealer or brand, but I really, really hope this reply isn't used as a segway to start trashing any one camera brand.
IMO
BC
Well if I told you what my problem was it would be trashing a company so I guess I can't answer that. So I won't go through it again.
Here is the story:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/36998-good-bye-medium-format-digital.html?highlight=goodbye+medium+format (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/36998-good-bye-medium-format-digital.html?highlight=goodbye+medium+format)
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It all depends on your experience.
I find my dealings with equipment to be 180 degrees from yours.
IMO
BC
You own a Contax camera system with a Phase One P30 back right.
My and many other peoples problems were with Phase One AF And DF cameras ... I've told you before. maybe that's why your experience is different.
Regarding your back... I've said it before... the P series backs are nice backs, built like little tanks and really quite nice an simple.
However the most important point is that a picture is worth a thousand words... a side by side comparison is worth even more.
Here is a side by side comparison between a D800 and a 40mp medium format camera:
(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=69391.0;attach=64261;image)
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=69391.0;attach=64261;image (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=69391.0;attach=64261;image)
For me it's clear as day.... 35mm DSLR D800 matches 40MP MF DSLR quality. I prefer the rest about the camera, the workflow, the ergonomics, way bigger choice of lenses, image stabilization, way better live view, wireless/wired tethering, video, much stronger company and all this is a simple "over the counter purchase"... no need for a value added dealer to hold my hand throughout the whole thing.
As far as bigger formats go... I'll skip MF Digital because it looks the same as the D800 and I'll rather go to 6x8cm and 8x10 film for totally different looks.
Use 50s Adox formulations, 8x10 paper negatives, traditional post. etc.
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+1 for Yair and Doug both of whom have answered questions and supplied me with documents and information on eves and weekends that no big box internet store could come close.
Fred, Dealers are not the enemy, nor are the companies like Phase or Hasselblad. They make products. People that want them can buy them and people who don't want them don't. It's simple. There is nothing deeper there. Dealers make it easy to try out the MFDB first prior to purchase. If anything dealers help a person become better informed prior to purchase. The manufacturers support the dealers in this.
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If you go to Yelp and read reviews of a restaurant that gets 4 star average and one guy gives it a 1 star rating and rants about all kinds of problems would you believe that guy or the 360 other reviewers? Most people would think that guy had a bad day or something else was wrong and would discount that rating as a complete outlier.
Fred you are starting to be that guy that gave the 1 star, the guy that had a bad day or worse. But its not just one day, it seems to be every day. :(