Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: gotspeed on October 22, 2012, 05:29:19 pm

Title: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 22, 2012, 05:29:19 pm
Shooting Canon and AFD3 a couple of weeks ago, got a sore right elbow to this day...  Test shooting RZ (outdoor 1st time) with winder, aka coffee grinder,  seemed like balancing 10lbs of weight on top of a soap box, i  got a sore left bicep.  And that my friends is the difference. Any questions?

Ok, so that's a lot of effort to just get an acceptable image that's sharp etc with MF. The life like crispness, in my limited experience with other glass, is only matched by Canon with 85 f/1.2 at near wide open . So you have 1 champ on canon vs most of them on MF.
I have seen drop dead goodness from Rollei/Zeiss (mega price, unfortunately).

Seems that almost very image that you actually manage to get right technically is a WOW image, doesn't happen with DSLR, unless it's the 85 1.2.   If the 65, 150, 180 on the RZ are like the 110, and i think at least the 150 is from my indoor test, will find out soon about the others.  My rake and shovel leaning against the fence, could go into a coffee table book :)..

In studio the MF/RZ kicks butt with the rotating back, the focus recompose nightmare goes away. Not that manual focus is a piece of cake but more often than not it's spot on.

Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: FredBGG on October 22, 2012, 08:51:50 pm
Mamiya RZ lenses are very nice.

The 110 2.8 and the 150 3.5 have very nice bokeh. I had the 180mm (twice) but never likes it that much.
The 250mm is also nice, but not quite as good as the 110 2.8 .

The RZ hand held is IMO quite nicely balanced with shorter lenses 110 and 150. With the 250 it's horrible.

The motor winder does make it harder to hand hold, however the manual lever is quite lice... big old paddle of a thing.
IF your film backs are ship shape the hand winder works nicely.

The 6x7 negative is nice to work with.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 22, 2012, 10:26:16 pm
I haven't shot with film, yet.  It's tempting with that big frame.  I got the winder to automate the camera a bit. When i am winding by hand, I noticed I was hitting the focus knob. So i figured to try out the winder.  On tripod it works well enough, though  even slower, but being able to just wait and keep your eyes in the viewfinder fire the next shot is nice, what a frame rate ;). It's neat how the image repears in slow motion..

  The L-grip is the next option to explore, for hand held shooting.  I only fear that my wrist will not like the torque as the body appears to hang off quite a bit to the right to clear the left focus knob.   But the strap and support from the right hand might be enough offset it. Without the winder it's definitely easier as you say.

My 65-la showed up today, it appears wide enough for indoor setup , with some room to spare even with the aptus 6 crop. I think I'm set as far as lenses go. 50/210 are tempting but for now I'll stop here and see how it goes.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: HarperPhotos on October 22, 2012, 10:55:58 pm
Hello,

When I used to shoot hand held with the Mamiya RZ I always used a hand grip, motor winder and a mono pod. It saves a lots of back ach and camera shake.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: TMARK on October 22, 2012, 11:34:13 pm
I never used the winder.  I'd rather crank, its so fast and makes the RZ feel svelte.

The grip to me is a must.

The 65m/la is too heavy for handheld use, and unless you are dialing in the floating element, gives marginaly better IQ than the 65w.  In fact, I think only for Macro does the added weight of the m/la make sense.

Check out the 140W and the M/LA.  Nice.  I like the 180W as well, the 250 is fantastic on film.  Too long for any of the backs.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 23, 2012, 12:06:44 am
Thanks guys, i'll check out the grip then..
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Dick Roadnight on October 23, 2012, 12:21:06 am
Shooting Canon and AFD3 a couple of weeks ago, got a sore right elbow to this day...  Test shooting RZ (outdoor 1st time) with winder, aka coffee grinder,  seemed like balancing a 10lbs of weight on top of a soap box, i  got a sore left bicep.  And that my friends is the difference. Any questions?

The Hasselblad H4D-60 with the 50-110 zoom is only 4Kg.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 23, 2012, 12:53:15 am
.
I have seen drop dead goodness from from Rollei/Zeiss (mega price, unfortunately).

Love my Hy6 w/80/2.8 Schneider Xenotar AF PQS, low weight, nimble, balance, lovely 6x6cm WLF view...

...did look close at Hassy V...even w/ just 80/2.8 Planar seem such a joy... still low weight.  ;D


(prior had Mamiya 7, mere like tad beefed up Leica yet 6x7, lesser weight than above)
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 23, 2012, 01:01:47 am
4k ~ 8lbs, so 1kg less. 1ds with 70-200 maybe a bit less.   But i was not being serious here, just making a joke that the difference between dslr and MF is which arm hurts.. What brought that on, the prior 10 page thread about d800 vs medium format..
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: HarperPhotos on October 23, 2012, 01:31:04 am
Hello,

I am fortunate to have a complete Mamiya RZ/Leaf Aptus 75 kit and a Nikon D3x/D800E system both of which you would have to price from my cold dead hands.

The great thing about the RZ is they are built like tanks and the lenses are so cheap, hell I just bought a immaculate Mamiya RZ 150mm lens on EBay for $269.00 US and didn’t even need it.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: FredBGG on October 23, 2012, 02:24:15 am
I never used the winder.  I'd rather crank, its so fast and makes the RZ feel svelte.

Yup me too. That motor drive always sounded like a cross between a Fiat 500 starting up on a cold day and a coffee grinder.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 23, 2012, 04:36:55 am
But i was not being serious here, just making a joke that the difference between dslr and MF is which arm hurts..

The funny is that when I join photographic gatherings the gents with DSLR frequent carry more gear than I do  ;). Either are mere plain tools of course and the choice based on preference is fine either way. However I feel weight of medium format gear is overrated. Yes, some cameras are heavier, but even then you are frequent more advanced in your vision which tend to limit the number of lenses. At least that is my experience... When I shot Nikon my system was frank more gear, all lenses between 17-400mm. Now I am for most content with 80mm (~50mm on 135 terms) and perhaps one wide.  ;D.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 23, 2012, 05:26:18 am
...but even then you are frequent more advanced in your vision which tend to limit the number of lenses. At least that is my experience... When I shot Nikon my system was frank more gear, all lenses between 17-400mm. Now I am for most content with 80mm (~50mm on 135 terms) and perhaps one wide.  ;D.

Have you considered stitching? One lens is enough!  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 23, 2012, 05:40:54 am
Have you considered stitching? One lens is enough!  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard


 ;D ;D ;D One lens is enough also without stitching, any camera  ;D

(nice try)  ;)
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 23, 2012, 06:52:30 am
Hi,

No comment about medium format, just an observation. I was shooting in the US national parks two years ago and hade sore wrist and fingers from my tripod and head. At that time I hade Gitzo tripod and an RRS BH55. The problem I had was that the camera I have is about 2.5 kg. Even when using L-bracket it is really a strain on the wrist aiming and adjust on a ball head. This autumn I was shooting for a week, but this time I had an RRS Versa 3 tripod and an Arca Swiss D4 geared head. With the geared head I don't need to hold the camera while adjusting. So this time I hade no issues with wrist or fingers.

When I was using film I used to carry 4-5 lenses for my Pentax 67 and also 4-5 lenses for 135. Used to be ultrawide, normal, short tele, long tele and an extender. A fisheye got added on the 67 side.

Anyway, good gear can be helpful. Good backpack, good tripod and head and so on makes shooting more relaxing.

Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Dick Roadnight on October 23, 2012, 07:15:06 am
Hi,
but this time I had an RRS Versa 3 tripod and an Arca Swiss D4 geared head. With the geared head I don't need to hold the camera while adjusting.

Good backpack, good tripod and head and so on makes shooting more relaxing.

Best regards
Erik
My camera with a full set of fully-geared movements is great, but 6Kg.

My tripod with fully geared head is great, but 10Kg.

I would not want to much back-packing with either: what dies your geared head weigh?

The GFAE CAPcam, of course has built-in powered movements which also function as a tripod head, but I do not know what it weighs.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: TMARK on October 23, 2012, 08:57:03 am
Yup me too. That motor drive always sounded like a cross between a Fiat 500 starting up on a cold day and a coffee grinder.


If your car made a soyund even similar to the RZ winder, you would cringe and pull over.  It sound slike a 3 series BMW's window regulators when they are going bad, or a badly maintained industrial winch system.  It is probably the worst part of the RZ system.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 23, 2012, 09:44:30 am
Hi,

My tripod + head is about 3 kg.

The backpack is about 10 kg. Two bodies FF + APS-C, 12-24/4.5-5.6 (Sigma) , 16-80/3.5-4.5 (APS-C) , 24-70/2.8, 70-400/4.0-5.6, 1.4X extender + some junk.

Normally I pack the Arca D4 head in the backpack. ANd have the tripd strapped to backpack so I have my hands free for shooting.

Best regards
Erik

My camera with a full set of fully-geared movements is great, but 6Kg.

My tripod with fully geared head is great, but 10Kg.

I would not want to much back-packing with either: what dies your geared head weigh?

The GFAE CAPcam, of course has built-in powered movements which also function as a tripod head, but I do not know what it weighs.

Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 23, 2012, 11:10:04 am
My tripod + head is about 3 kg.

The backpack is about 10 kg. Two bodies FF + APS-C, 12-24/4.5-5.6 (Sigma) , 16-80/3.5-4.5 (APS-C) , 24-70/2.8, 70-400/4.0-5.6, 1.4X extender + some junk.

Erik,

My Hy6 w/ Leaf back and 80mm lens in Kinesis shoulder bag, weighs less than your tripod + head combo!!! :)

My other lens adds 900g in same bag. My Gitzo 1325 and Markins adds 2.5kg.

Above said, my 10-year old Tenba PBP is the most comfortable photo back pack I have come across. I have traveled ALOT with it including round the world, across Asia, Europe etc, and it has helped carry up to over 18kg on my back in comfort --- always as carry-on!

I now prefer to carry lesser weight.  ;)

Best regards,
Anders
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 23, 2012, 12:13:54 pm
Hi Anders,

My response was addressed to Dick, and his stuff weights 16 kg.

I'm much impressed by the weight of your Hy6, back and lens.

Getting back to tripods my RRS Versa 3 with leveling  bowl and the Arca D4 geared head weighs about 3160 gram, but makes it easy to compose images the way I work. The Gitzo GT3541LS I also have comes in at 2350 g with an RRS BH40 ballhead. Those 810 grams mean much more comfortable work.

I also assume that you are not that much interested in images like this:

http://vimeo.com/user13834009/review/52012348/534f46deb5

or this:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Demos/2012_09_15_CratersOfTheMoon_01_crop1_VC.jpg

Now, we have different interest and we are willing to carry different amount of stuff, that's OK I think?

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr





Erik,

My Hy6 w/ Leaf back and 80mm lens in Kinesis shoulder bag, weighs less than your tripod + head combo!!! :)

My other lens adds 900g in same bag. My Gitzo 1325 and Markins adds 2.5kg.

Above said, my 10-year old Tenba PBP is the most comfortable photo back pack I have come across. I have traveled ALOT with it including round the world, across Asia, Europe etc, and it has helped carry up to over 18kg on my back in comfort --- always as carry-on!

I now prefer to carry lesser weight.  ;)

Best regards,
Anders
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 23, 2012, 12:40:34 pm
Now, we have different interest and we are willing to carry different amount of stuff, that's OK I think?

Of course! That is why we all use different tools.  ;)

Medium format though does not necessarily mean heavy and my Hy6 is still heavier than Mamiya 7. Leica M is of course lighter...  ;)
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 23, 2012, 12:47:32 pm
Hi,

Leica M is not MF, of course. Potentially, the Leica M is very interesting as it can potentially take any lens. It has also a CMOS sensor capable of live view and it can even take an electronic viewfinder.

I'm at least a tiny bit interested in the Leica.

Best regards
Erik

Of course! That is why we all use different tools.  ;)

Medium format though does not necessarily mean heavy and my Hy6 is still heavier than Mamiya 7. Leica M is of course lighter...  ;)
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 23, 2012, 01:08:34 pm
M8 & M9 had Kodak CCD sensors that were very medium format like. Monochrom which removed the RGB filters has even more such character, and B&W hues similar T-Max. No idea what character the new M CMOS will have, except... will be interesting.  ;)

I also assume that you are not that much interested in images like this:

http://vimeo.com/user13834009/review/52012348/534f46deb5

or this:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Demos/2012_09_15_CratersOfTheMoon_01_crop1_VC.jpg

Mere tad differing species Erik...  ;D
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 23, 2012, 01:52:54 pm
Hi,

Point taken on species! ;-)

The Monochrome even needs filters like in the old days, yellow, orange, red and green to separate color.

I used to claim that CCD or CMOS doesn't affect colors or tonality, the CGA in front of the sensor may do. Leica went with a European developer of the CMOS sensor, would be interesting how color rendition turns out.

Have to wait and see!

Best regards
Erik

M8 & M9 had Kodak CCD sensors that were very medium format like. Monochrom which removed the RGB filters has even more such character, and B&W hues similar T-Max. No idea what character the new M CMOS will have, except... will be interesting.  ;)

Mere tad differing species Erik...  ;D
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: HarperPhotos on October 23, 2012, 03:14:26 pm
Hello,

Interesting our different takes on equipment. For me the Mamiya RZ winder is indispensable and I have never shot without it. Yes its noisy but like all RZ gear it just keeps on going and going and going and going and going and going.......

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: TMARK on October 24, 2012, 10:17:12 am
Hello,

Interesting our different takes on equipment. For me the Mamiya RZ winder is indispensable and I have never shot without it. Yes its noisy but like all RZ gear it just keeps on going and going and going and going and going and going.......

Cheers

Simon

For me it's the weight and added bulk.  I have one winder which looked like it was set dressing from The Road Warrior.  It was given to me by a lady I assisted in 2000 or so. The mechanics were gummed up with mud and dried grease such that it would continiously operate.  I sprayed some PB Blaster into the gears and let it run, flushed it with naptha, let it dry out upside down, then lubed it with graphite.  Runs like new, looks like hell.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: uaiomex on October 24, 2012, 11:53:05 am
The state of the art Hy6 is so good looking (especially with the new all black treatment) that it seems it will float.  :D
Eduardo

Love my Hy6 w/80/2.8 Schneider Xenotar AF PQS, low weight, nimble, balance, lovely 6x6cm WLF view...

...did look close at Hassy V...even w/ just 80/2.8 Planar seem such a joy... still low weight.  ;D


(prior had Mamiya 7, mere like tad beefed up Leica yet 6x7, lesser weight than above)
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Gigi on October 24, 2012, 12:13:03 pm
Weight really depends on what you take. One or two lenses (carefully chosen, such as the 40, 60, 80, or 150), WLF, tripod and not much else is one thing. Chose the heavy Hy6 lenses (such as the 110 f2, 180 2.8, or the 55 PCS, and you'll be sweating bullets. Of course, there are the two zooms (60-140 or 140-280) for those who really like to pile on the pounds.   
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 24, 2012, 12:50:22 pm
Chose the heavy Hy6 lenses (such as the 110 f2, 180 2.8, or the 55 PCS, and you'll be sweating bullets. Of course, there are the two zooms (60-140 or 140-280) for those who really like to pile on the pounds.  

You only mentioned one aspect of those lenses: weight. The other is they are $$. Those are two advantages of Hy6 system that keeps you from buying many lenses, thus spending less and carrying less in your bag!!!!!!!!

Serious, it works for me.  ;)
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Gigi on October 24, 2012, 02:42:02 pm
One of the joys of this system is the ability use older PQ manual lenses with up to fat (easy to use) focus confirmation. Having started with a 6003 twenty years ag, lucky enough to pick up a lens every time the market gave up on the system. Over the years that adds up!
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 24, 2012, 03:29:46 pm
Just a small reflection,

I was shooting for a week in Yellowstone and Grand Teton National parks. I must have seen around 50 500/4.5 lenses of different makes. That is not exactly low price stuff. So I guess that price is less of a hindrance.

I don't really find MF lenses so expensive.

Hy6 body 7900 $US
Aptus II 10 25990 $US
Rollei lenses 2100-4000 $US

So the Rollei lenses cost like 2-3 times Zeiss lenses for full frame DSLR. The back still dominates the cost.

Best regards
Erik

You only mentioned one aspect of those lenses: weight. The other is they are $$. Those are two advantages of Hy6 system that keeps you from buying many lenses, thus spending less and carrying less in your bag!!!!!!!!

Serious, it works for me.  ;)
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 24, 2012, 03:58:14 pm
Fun discusion you've been having... Got my 65mm l-a and it's a bit heavy to handhold as TMARK was warning about...  :( Although I am not sure where the weight really is..  Almost curious enough to put all the pieces on the scale.

Funny, set up on tripod no winder and my 4 year old son pulled up a stool and  started to crank the winder and fire the shutter. So if a 4 year old can do it.. How difficult could the RZ67 be... ISO 200 f/4 about 1/3s with just lighting from tungsten fixture. Noise wise, i really hate it past 200 ISO processing in LR quickly.  Downsized, images are OK.   How far do you guys push the ISO/noise reductions?

Regarding cost, I got lucky to have found a rich dentist (ok i don't really know what he did, something medical) that only took 200 shots, none good i don't think (i really didn't believe he had this camera from the samples he sent me, except for the EXIF info saying it was a Leaf), before he decided the AFD/Leaf wasn't for him and let me have it.  Adding the RZ kit was even less painful on the wallet. But don't feel bad for him, he said he was getting the S2.

Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 24, 2012, 04:00:53 pm
Rollei lenses 2100-4000 $US

Nah, not if you shop around for used... and avoid the most exotics such as 110/2, shift lens etc...

At least in Hong Kong that is way too much for a AFi-II 10, sure is worth to shop around and negotiate ask...  ;D
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: TMARK on October 24, 2012, 04:12:05 pm
Fun discusion you've been having... Got my 65mm l-a and it's a bit heavy to handhold as TMARK was warning about...  :( Although I am not sure where the weight really is..  Almost curious enough to put all the pieces on the scale.

Funny, set up on tripod no winder and my 4 year old son pulled up a stool and  started to crank the winder and fire the shutter. So if a 4 year old can do it.. How difficult could the RZ67 be... ISO 200 f/4 about 1/3s with just lighting from tungsten fixture. Noise wise, i really hate it past 200 ISO processing in LR quickly.  Downsized, images are OK.   How far do you guys push the ISO/noise reductions?

Regarding cost, I got lucky to have found a rich dentist (ok i don't really know what he did, something medical) that only took 200 shots, none good i don't think (i really didn't believe he had this camera from the samples he sent me, except for the EXIF info saying it was a Leaf), before he decided the AFD/Leaf wasn't for him and let me have it.  Adding the RZ kit was even less painful on the wallet. But don't feel bad for him, he said he was getting the S2.



Weight comes from the floating element, but yeah, it seems much heavier than the normal 65mm W.

I don't shoot the Aptus 75s past 200 iso, which is why I don't use it much.  Frankly, I get better results with Portra 800 or 400NC than I do with the Aptus at over 100 iso. 
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 24, 2012, 04:13:41 pm
Hi,

I just checked BH Photovideo price list. They had four lenses an they cost between 2000 and 4000 $US. If you spend something like 30000 $US on body and back I would say those prices are

The two lenses I bought for my Sony are around 2000 $US each at BH Photovideo, but they are zooms of course. The Zeiss fixed focals are not much cheaper. Personally I prefer zooms, as I can very often not vary my standpoint, due to stuff that's in the way, phone wires, trees and so on. So I'm often moving my tripod just 15 cm or so to get the composition I want, and having freedom to choose focal length is a boon.


Second hand prices in HK are obviously lower, but that is not where I live.

Best regards
Erik

Nah, not if you shop around for used... and avoid the most exotics such as 110/2, shift lens etc...

At least in Hong Kong that is way too much for a AFi-II 10, sure is worth to shop around and negotiate ask...  ;D
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: Anders_HK on October 24, 2012, 04:24:36 pm
Erik, in Hong Kong there is only one good place to buy good condition used at low prices: Ebay.com. Local market is in general too high price and condition not good. Also selling is Ebay. Advantage is quick EMS and no import duties.

Actually, as word of warning I am not sure I would trust any used dealer in Hong Kong. Do be aware also on Ebay, some "Hong Kong" vendors state they ship by China Post. Obvious is Hong Kong has Hong Kong Post and they are in China... I also do not buy used in/from China... On other hand new prices are good in Hong Kong, about as low USA, sometimes lower, but you need know where to shop...because varies...
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 24, 2012, 04:28:34 pm
I think I loaded 120 film once just to try it.   Then i took all apart to understand the film path. That's the extent of film use since my Minolta  XG-1 50mm f/2 days. I just gave that camera to my niece for a photography class which required a film camera.  Nice memories and images.   I was thinking about giving her the RZ, but thought better of it, and then it dawned on me I still had the XG-1. Stuck in the closet after fixing a leaky shutter.

One day couple of  years ago while I was hanging out in my friends studio/lab, one of their customers brought in a 6x7 negative for a reprint. It was a portrait of an older gentleman in a classy setting.  They had it scanned on their dlab, no fancy drum scanner,  the image immediately stood out from the typical stuff from dslrs. Something about it, depth, tonality. .. It made a big impression on me.   Just like browsing through my copy of Gilles Bensimon Photography: No Particular Order with those big crisp faces..  Just realized i should probably find out what he shot with,  and the outcome of the search. :

http://photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00Ru0k?start=60

Derek Stanton , Jan 04, 2009; 05:24 p.m.
More....

Steven Klein, Markus Klinko, David Sims, Fabien Baron, Craig McDean, Solve Sundsbo, Mikael Jansson, Tom Munro, Thomas Schenk, Bruno Bisang, Andreas Bitesnich, Rocco LaSpata, Walter Chin, Nathaniel Goldberg, Vincent Peters.... Gilles Bensimon used the big Fuji GX, among lots of other cameras, but he said in an interview that he didn't use anything smaller than 6x7.
It was pretty simple back then. If you shot fashion, you bought/rented an RZ67 or Pentax 67. Now, it's the Hassy H.
The number of people i can think of that shot 6x4.5 is very small. There was a very famous French guy who's name i can't recall. Ellen von Unwerth said in an interview that, occasionally, certain of her clients made her use 645 (Contax, i believe) when they needed "big blowups" of things. But, her normal work was all done with 35mm Nikons with grainy film, so her 'moving up' to 645 is of no significance in this discussion. Same story with Terry Richardson. I think Pamela Hanson used 645s.

@Robert Budding:
It's not about enlargement size necessarily, until you get to posters/exhibition-sized stuff. It's about tonality and dimension, and having more information in a scan to manipulate it. If the objective was only to get an 11x14" print with the smallest grain size, you get a Canon 5D or Nikon D700 and add a little 'grain' with Exposure. You shoot a 6x7 to get a bigger feeling image. I don't have the words to adequately describe what that means. But, if you've looked at enough fashion shot with those cameras and then compare the images to those shot with 35mm or "35mm digital," you should see it. Look at the RZ images here:
http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=40287499%40N00&q=mamiya&m=text

Look at a Herb Ritts book (or, better yet, print). Tri-X with an RZ is unmistakable. Tri-X with a 645 looks more like 35mm ISO 100 film.

or this:
http://www.fredericlagrange.com/

What's important to remember is that we're talking about fashion, handheld. Under optimal circumstances: tripod, stationary subject matter, strobe-lit, fine-grained film, yeah, the differences shrink until you get to very large prints. But, fashion and stills are different animals. The bottom line for me was this: 100 fashion pros used the RZ/P67. 5 used a 645. Was i trying to 'outsmart' the 100 guys getting the Calvin Klein and Prada campaigns?
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 24, 2012, 04:39:58 pm
Hi,

I bought some stuff on E-bay, like bubble levels and also an ARAX tilt adapter from the Ukraine and East German Flektogon 40/4. These two make for a decent tilt lens: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/29-handling-the-dof-trap?start=3

All that stuff worked just fine. But I would be careful buying expensive stuff which can be difficult to check out. On the other hand, I would have no issue buying from Capture Integration or Digital Transitions if the say they can resolve all possible issues. I guess that the lenses I bought may also be cheaper on E-bay than at Cyberphoto in Umeå.

But that's just me. It's nice for you if you can find good stuff at reasonable prices.

Best regards
Erik



Erik, in Hong Kong there is only one good place to buy good condition used at low prices: Ebay.com. Local market is in general too high price and condition not good. Also selling is Ebay. Advantage is quick EMS and no import duties.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 24, 2012, 05:19:08 pm
I beat you by $34 from Adorama! came with a hood too! Kudos ot you nikon guys. How long do you think it will take Canon to bounce back and offer something competative with D800. My guess probably not too much longer.

Hello,

I am fortunate to have a complete Mamiya RZ/Leaf Aptus 75 kit and a Nikon D3x/D800E system both of which you would have to price from my cold dead hands.

The great thing about the RZ is they are built like tanks and the lenses are so cheap, hell I just bought a immaculate Mamiya RZ 150mm lens on EBay for $269.00 US and didn’t even need it.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 24, 2012, 05:30:21 pm
Re: H4d with 55-110.

That 55-110 looks huge.. I was watching a show, where ex-singer turned photographer  was shooting with H-Phase and this lens. I was impressed how at one point she handed off the whole setup to her assistant with the arm fully out stretched while waiting for him to take it for about 1 or  2 seconds. She didn't look particularly muscular, so I thought it was surprising how effortless that looked.

Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: JV on October 24, 2012, 07:24:32 pm
Re: H4d with 55-110.

That 55-110 looks huge.. I was watching a show, where ex-singer turned photographer  was shooting with H-Phase and this lens. I was impressed how at one point she handed off the whole setup to her assistant with the arm fully out stretched while waiting for him to take it for about 1 or  2 seconds. She didn't look particularly muscular, so I thought it was surprising how effortless that looked.

Just tried this, can't do it, at least not effortless... The 50-110 weighs 1650g.
Title: new arrival 180 W-N
Post by: gotspeed on October 26, 2012, 02:57:41 am
Did some test shots with the 180 W-N, it appears to be nice and sharp wide open.   With f/4.5 max it's getting darker in the view finder..  At one point the system locked up on me, couldn't do a thing.  Freaked me out.   Back was complaining it was not getting an image, i could not rotate the winder, or take off the lens not sure about rotating the back..  Luckily it turned out to be 65mm i switched to was set for Timed exposure on the lens..
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 30, 2012, 02:53:49 pm
So now having the whole package, grip, winder +prism with 2.4magnifier,  "Are you feeling lucky , punk?" is what came to my mind while  looking at and holding the camera.

The grip as expected , gives a nice way to hold the beast, but it really twists your wrist with that much weight, so you need support from right hand but then focusing becomes the hardest part while supporting the camera with both hands.  

On the plus side, nice side effect of the winder is that the left focus knob gets raised up, so some crude focusing can be done with left thumb. Almost as if by design... The big minus, you can't mount "almost" anything in the hot shoe, hence they add a cold shoe on the grip (at least it looks cold) meaning I'll need a 2nd cable from back to PW. I also got the shorter back to lens cable, so that cable is nicely routed around the top body, and stays out of the way now.  

I also found a new/cheap Type C screen with a microprism (no split).  It helps out a lot on brighter subjects with magnifier on WLF.
Magnifier on the prism, gives nice bright enlargement, but wearing glasses, it's not ideal to flip up my glasses, then flip down the magnifier.

Going back to prism with with the mirror image correction, is very comforting at the moment, the tunnel is there as some say, but it's not that bad..  I'm still uncomfortable composing with the WLF. Although getting better. So i think i am glad to have gotten it, definitely usable. This is the non-AE, finder 2. Heavy chunk of glass, as is every piece..


Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: HarperPhotos on October 30, 2012, 05:04:03 pm
Hello,

I’m pleased that you in my opinion have the best MF camera system ever made. I have said this before but I would recommend a mono pod if you want to hand hold. It still gives you mobility but it just takes all that weight of your hands and arms.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 30, 2012, 05:39:10 pm
Thanks for the support :).. I will do  the monopod.. .  1st real shoot, i didn't start using the RZ until sun was long gone.. Spent too long in the field with the canon.   Ended up shooting 1/13 ISO 100 tripod with human subject, and still got some usable images (even with the 180 )  with bit of  motion blur on some... Hindsight  should have gone with iso 200/400 and tried out the C1 v7 to see how good it is.

I didn't have much time to play with C1 7 yet, but imported some iso 200 test shots to check it out. Looked very clean in the viewer after c1 processed it. Now if i can get to let me edit the images... No problem with import and edit in 6.. weird.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on October 31, 2012, 12:05:02 pm
Having finally clicked on the Checkout Hertblei thread, noticed the killer adapter (with killer price  ).  

I already can put my m645 120 macro on the canon, Leaf  on both RZ  and AFD and soon RZ lenses on the AFD! Interesting proposition. That would be very flexible system.
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on November 01, 2012, 10:41:25 am
Simon,

Now  you got me curious.  Which features you find the most useful and valuable for your work to have this strong of an opinion...

Luckily the PW transmitter includes a short cable (sat unused in the box for years.. I was about to order one until reviews pointed out it's included). I thought it will be too short to rotate the back, but no it's just perfect and still very uncluttered with one cable crossing under the other. I am pleased with how that worked out.  Ready to go for flash work with the grip..

The focus issue while holding the body with both hands, with more practice is not so bad, there's many ways to hold the body to work all 3 knobs.. Having thumbs is a really useful thing after all.

Hello,

I’m pleased that you in my opinion have the best MF camera system ever made. I have said this before but I would recommend a mono pod if you want to hand hold. It still gives you mobility but it just takes all that weight of your hands and arms.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on November 03, 2012, 11:09:09 am
So I am not going nuts after all.. There's somekind of a bug on windows version.. Doesn't edit images from Aptus backs. Switching from DB to PRo trial fixed it.

Re: Can't edit Leaf photo in Capture One DB 7

Postby Drew » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:50 pm
Not at all... it looks like a bug on the Windows version.
We got a support case this evening and forwarded it to the Programers. They replied right away and began to look into the issue. We'll get on it, in the meantime use the PRO trial which will last 60 days and we'll have it fixed for you by then.
The PRO version does work with the files so it's a simple fix in the DB code. Sorry it got overlooked somehow :(
Kind Regards,
Drew
Phase One

Drew   
    Crew
    Crew
    
    Posts: 2586
    Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:34 pm
    Location: New York   

Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: HarperPhotos on November 03, 2012, 05:21:26 pm
Hi Gotspeed,

My reasoning for my comment about the Mamiya RZ system goes back to 1988. My first medium camera system was a second hand Kowa Super 66 which was called the poor mans Hasselblad. But as a young photographer it was cheap and a very good camera but it was getting old. So I looked at the Hasselblad V system, the new Rollie 6006 system at the time and the Mamiya RZ. What I like straight of the bat was the 6x7 format no mentally cropping the 6x6 format in my head. The RZ’s modular system and the bellows focus lenses and it ability to rotate the film back. And of course it was much cheaper than the Hasselblad and Rollie as I was still getting established.

Now 24 years and 4 bodies latter I still just love this camera.

Hope this answers your question.

Give it time getting to know the beautiful camera and it will become part of you. Wow that was deep.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: gotspeed on November 03, 2012, 06:55:06 pm
Thanks for sharing that...

Hi Gotspeed,

My reasoning for my comment about the Mamiya RZ system goes back to 1988. My first medium camera system was second hand Kowa 66 which was called the poor man Hasselblad. But as a young photographer it was cheap and a very good camera but was getting old. So I looked at the Hasselblad V system, the new Rollie 6006 system at the time and the Mamiya RZ. What I like straight of the bat was the 6x7 format no mentally cropping the 6x6 format in my head. The RZ’s modular system and the bellows focus lenses and it ability to rotate the film back. And of coure it was much cheaper than the Hasselblad and Rollie as I was still getting established.

Now 24 years and 4 bodies latter I still just love this camera.

Hope this answerers your question.

Give it time getting to know the beautiful camera and it will become part of you. Wow that was deep.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: I've experienced Medium format, and my left bicep is sore.
Post by: TMARK on November 04, 2012, 09:27:25 am
Hi Gotspeed,

My reasoning for my comment about the Mamiya RZ system goes back to 1988. My first medium camera system was second hand Kowa 66 which was called the poor man Hasselblad. But as a young photographer it was cheap and a very good camera but was getting old. So I looked at the Hasselblad V system, the new Rollie 6006 system at the time and the Mamiya RZ. What I like straight of the bat was the 6x7 format no mentally cropping the 6x6 format in my head. The RZ’s modular system and the bellows focus lenses and it ability to rotate the film back. And of coure it was much cheaper than the Hasselblad and Rollie as I was still getting established.

Now 24 years and 4 bodies latter I still just love this camera.

Hope this answerers your question.

Give it time getting to know the beautiful camera and it will become part of you. Wow that was deep.

Cheers

Simon

My exact experience, although I didn't have a Kowa. I had a bare bones V system and couldn't afford any more lenses, backs, finders, etc. I had a hard time cropping to 4:3. When I was assisting I saw the RZ in action and was blown away. I've had RZs since 1994.