Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: FredBGG on October 17, 2012, 07:32:36 am
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I have posted about this video before, but forgot something.
Here is what I wrote before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91KqEfi23FU&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91KqEfi23FU&feature=youtu.be)
The video shows a Phase One guy shooting moving action with strobe and WIDE OPEN
with fast focus. Yet the very manual of that cameras states that you need to shoot at f8 in order to achieve focus
with fast focus.
From page 99 of the pdf manual.
C-19 AF Priority [AF_2]
Accuracy of auto-focusing priority (default setting) or speed priority can be
decided.
0: Speed
(Aperture to f/ 8 is recommended when using this function.)
The claims of faster focusing are somewhat over rated.
buried deep in the manual it states that the faster focusing setting is only accurate enough at f8 or more.
No mention of that in there video plugging their new focusing.
But there is something else wrong with this video......
Lets play a game here and see who can spot it first ;) 8) 8) 8)
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Fred,
How do you get from that ungrammatical "aperture to f/8 is _recommended_" to it being _necessary_ to stop down to f/8? For all I can tell, that could even be a warning against using higher aperture ratios.
Speaking as a fellow enthusiast for using the smallest format that gets the job done and skeptic about many of the arguments offered by some "medium format" enthusiasts for the unacceptability of smaller digital formats as alternatives, I think you spend way too much time researching and debating products that you clearly have no interest in owning or using. Or am I weird in only reading a manual (all the way to page 99) if I at least seriously contemplate using the product?
If you want to be an evangelist, how about instead telling us the good news about camera gear that you recommend and are familiar with?
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If you want to be an evangelist, how about instead telling us the good news about camera gear that you recommend and are familiar with?
That would be a productive and positive contribution to the board. You now shoot 6x8 film and a D800 (maybe others?). The board would benefit from hearing about how you're getting the best out of both options, along with perhaps your experience with the non-gear side (production issues, working with celebrities, etc).
I don't really see any benefit to anyone (including you) to the anti-MFD rampage you've been on for a few months now. We get it; you think it's all a bunch of malarky.
As to the video --- as pointed out above, the user guide *recommends* stopping down when using the "fast" focus mode. It's not *required*, though it definitely increases your hit rate.
The reality is this is advertising. If you watch a commercial for a sports car you'd be led to believe that it's perfectly acceptable to pull a U-turn in a desert at 60mph. Probably somewhere in the owners manual it will *recommend* you "stop down" the speed of the car when pulling a U-Turn :-).
I think it's fair to say that the good medium format dealers not only allow, but encourage, customers to evaluate the equipment they are considering purchasing. We certainly do.
As to whether you can shoot in fast mode wide open. Here is my personal experience: If a wedding reception is outside or in a brightly lit room I will use medium format for reportage-style portraits of the attendees. I do this wide open in fast focus rear-button mode* (spontaneity and not being noticed or annoying is important to my desired outcome); focus is off on maybe half the shots. If it's in a darker environment I use a 5D3 with a fast prime lens in continuous autofocus rear-button mode, wide open; same thing - I miss focus on maybe half the shots**. I could easily stop down and increase my hit rate, and I could easily spend more time with the camera to my face to verify and tune focus as needed before pulling the trigger, but these changes would be counter productive to the style I aim to produce, and in this case it's far more important to me that I produce a dozen or so interesting images than to hit 100% of the shots I attempt.
*Depending on the direction of light on the subject I may also manually focus
**Of course while I miss about the same rate with both systems the 5D3 is being used in a tougher AF environment (darker lighting coming from less AF-conducive angles). I'd be the first to tell you that in equally tough conditions 35mm beats MF focusing every time.
Two recent examples:
(http://doug-peterson.com/download/kevin-jenny/Kevin-Jenny-10.jpg)
(http://doug-peterson.com/download/kevin-jenny/Kevin-Jenny-11.jpg)
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Fred,
How do you get from that ungrammatical "aperture to f/8 is _recommended_" to it being _necessary_ to stop down to f/8? For all I can tell, that could even be a warning against using higher aperture ratios.
Speaking as a fellow enthusiast for using the smallest format that gets the job done and skeptic about many of the arguments offered by some "medium format" enthusiasts for the unacceptability of smaller digital formats as alternatives, I think you spend way too much time researching and debating products that you clearly have no interest in owning or using. Or am I weird in only reading a manual (all the way to page 99) if I at least seriously contemplate using the product?
If you want to be an evangelist, how about instead telling us the good news about camera gear that you recommend and are familiar with?
BJL
I read the whole manual or at least most of it because I owned the camera and wanted to use it in situations like the demonstration in this video.
I spent a lot of frustrating time with the camera and NO I DON'T THINK IT IS WEIRD for a camera owner to go through the whole manual, particularly if it does not
do what the manufacturers demo videos are claiming.
I guessing that the many attacks I received here on the forum may have lead you to believe that I did not own the camera. I did sell it though.
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That would be a productive and positive contribution to the board. You now shoot 6x8 film and a D800 (maybe others?). The board would benefit from hearing about how you're getting the best out of both options, along with perhaps your experience with the non-gear side (production issues, working with celebrities, etc).
I don't really see any benefit to anyone (including you) to the anti-MFD rampage you've been on for a few months now. We get it; you think it's all a bunch of malarky.
As to the video --- as pointed out above, the user guide *recommends* stopping down when using the "fast" focus mode. It's not *required*, though it definitely increases your hit rate.
The reality is this is advertising. If you watch a commercial for a sports car you'd be led to believe that it's perfectly acceptable to pull a U-turn in a desert at 60mph. Probably somewhere in the owners manual it will *recommend* you "stop down" the speed of the car when pulling a U-Turn :-).
I think it's fair to say that the good medium format dealers not only allow, but encourage, customers to evaluate the equipment they are considering purchasing. We certainly do.
As to whether you can shoot in fast mode wide open. Here is my personal experience: If a wedding reception is outside or in a brightly lit room I will use medium format for reportage-style portraits of the attendees. I do this wide open in fast focus rear-button mode* (spontaneity and not being noticed or annoying is important to my desired outcome); focus is off on maybe half the shots. If it's in a darker environment I use a 5D3 with a fast prime lens in continuous autofocus rear-button mode, wide open; same thing - I miss focus on maybe half the shots**. I could easily stop down and increase my hit rate, and I could easily spend more time with the camera to my face to verify and tune focus as needed before pulling the trigger, but these changes would be counter productive to the style I aim to produce, and in this case it's far more important to me that I produce a dozen or so interesting images than to hit 100% of the shots I attempt.
*Depending on the direction of light on the subject I may also manually focus
**Of course while I miss about the same rate with both systems the 5D3 is being used in a tougher AF environment (darker lighting coming from less AF-conducive angles). I'd be the first to tell you that in equally tough conditions 35mm beats MF focusing every time.
Two recent examples:
(http://doug-peterson.com/download/kevin-jenny/Kevin-Jenny-10.jpg)
(http://doug-peterson.com/download/kevin-jenny/Kevin-Jenny-11.jpg)
Interesting that you chose to attach me rather than take the challenge and see if you can spot what it wrong in the video....
Let me ask you twoe questions and please as a dealer please answer.
Do you find the video to be miss leading or not?
Do you find the video to be honest?
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Anyway... back to the game....
Come on guys and gals... put on your detectives hat and have some fun with this little puzzler...
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If you want to be an evangelist, how about instead telling us the good news about camera gear that you recommend and are familiar with?
+1
I'd much rather hear something about the fuji 680, film, or how you lit and image or even better see an image that you liked. I'm not a fan of the DF body at all, but I can't even remotely connect your posts as being a benefit to young photographers or people considering a purchase. Your post here comes across as petty or even vengeful.
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"[H]ave some fun"?
Define "fun."
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Fun...
Treat this as a puzzler and see if you can spot the gotcha...
We are after all observant photographers right...
;D
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is that the fast AF function works TO f8 ... which to me means it works best at any aperture from F8 and wider so if the guy is running around shooting wide open, he is following the manual.
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Anyway... back to the game....
Come on guys and gals... put on your detectives hat and have some fun with this little puzzler...
With all due respect, Fred, I'm not a world famous A list photographer, so I don't have time. Rather than being concerned with negative tirades, I'm busy using my Nikons and Hasselblads (or whatever other equipment works for me) making photographs and enjoying the work that some of the professionals are posting and discussing here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=28709.3860 .
Ed
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is that the fast AF function works TO f8 ... which to me means it works best at any aperture from F8 and wider so if the guy is running around shooting wide open, he is following the manual.
The user manual intends to recommend to the user to stop the lens down when using Fast (vs. Precise) AF modes.
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I'm guessing he's referring to the fact Walter (the photographer) leans back as the subject comes closer to him. Most viewers might conclude he is attempting to keep the increasingly large subject in the frame since he is using a prime lens. But if you put on your glasses tinted with the assumption that MF companies are all lying bastards out to get you then you might conclude that he is moving back to improve AF results even though he moves back 1-2 feet and the subject is moving much more than that.
It's advertising. Do your own tests to see what works for you. This applies in any area of life. Otherwise you might assume that during that women becomes a happy skydivers during that time of the month (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Bpy75q2DDow).
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I'm guessing he's referring to the fact Walter (the photographer) leans back as the subject comes closer to him. Most viewers might conclude he is attempting to keep the increasingly large subject in the frame since he is using a prime lens.
Naah I'm sure it's got something to do with the colour of the petrol tank that guy is carrying not conforming to some COLREG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea) regulations or some such...I'm surprised with you Douglas....
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Naah I'm sure it's got something to do with the colour of the petrol tank that guy is carrying not conforming to some COLREG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea) regulations or some such...I'm surprised with you Douglas....
COLREGS? I love it.
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Goody gumdrops, I like games.
What's the prize? Perhaps a camera club membership?
A Tamrac bag?
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I have never shot with this camera. I have never even seen someone shoot one in person, so I have never heard the shutter and witnessed it triggering a flash, but the light does not seem to flash with the shutter. Maybe the sound was dubbed in later.
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is that the fast AF function works TO f8 ... which to me means it works best at any aperture from F8 and wider so if the guy is running around shooting wide open, he is following the manual.
No that's not the problem because when the camera focuses it does so wide open even if you are stopped down to f8 or even f16. The iris automatically stops down when the mirror goes up.
There is a stop down depth of field preview button on the camera though if someone wants to stop down momentarily.
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With all due respect, Fred, I'm not a world famous A list photographer, so I don't have time. Rather than being concerned with negative tirades, I'm busy using my Nikons and Hasselblads (or whatever other equipment works for me) making photographs and enjoying the work that some of the professionals are posting and discussing here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=28709.3860 .
Ed
Love your photos and articles on Cuba.
Beautiful and touching. Excellent work.
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The user manual intends to recommend to the user to stop the lens down when using Fast (vs. Precise) AF modes.
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I'm guessing he's referring to the fact Walter (the photographer) leans back as the subject comes closer to him. Most viewers might conclude he is attempting to keep the increasingly large subject in the frame since he is using a prime lens. But if you put on your glasses tinted with the assumption that MF companies are all lying bastards out to get you then you might conclude that he is moving back to improve AF results even though he moves back 1-2 feet and the subject is moving much more than that.
It's advertising. Do your own tests to see what works for you. This applies in any area of life. Otherwise you might assume that during that women becomes a happy skydivers during that time of the month (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Bpy75q2DDow).
Nope that's not it.
Let me ask you the two questions again.
Just a simple yes or no.
Do you find the video to be miss leading or not?
Do you find the video to be honest?
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Do you find the video to be miss leading or not?
Do you find the video to be honest?
`Sentence first--verdict afterwards.' as the Queen said at Alice's trial.
I think instead you need to state your charges and evidence before anyone will bother to vote!
P. S. on second thoughts, I probably should not have followed this thread down the rabbit-hole -- sometimes I fall for the temptations of forum nonsense Wonderland.
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Hmm...Walter really should not be wearing jeans with a brand name golf shirt?
BTW, he's about as stand-up as they come, so whatever conspiracy has been spotted, I'm quite certain it was not intended to mislead - even withstanding all the sales and marketing caveats.
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My brain hurts after reading this thread. It's a game that only 1 person wants to participate in.
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I understand 1/800 sec. and f 2.8
There is no cable between the MacBook and the back? So how can the guy see the pictures that were taken?
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Love your photos and articles on Cuba.
Beautiful and touching. Excellent work.
Thank you, Fred, that is kind of you.
Ed
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I have not watched the video, but the double shutter may be there if the photographer is using a LS Schneider Phase One lens. The LS and DF shutter both have to
fire each time, may be the sound you hear.
Paul
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He shoots 11 pictures, the final slide only shows 6
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I think the video would like you to believe that all the shots were obtained in only one run. It seems to me that some details show that several attempts were made and the final pictures were selected among different runs.
Camera settings: At the beggining the lens is set to MF when the photographer seems to start shoting. Then it appears changed to AF.
Shutter selector: At the beggining and during most of the video is set to "C"(continuous), but in the last shot it appears on "S" single
The shot of the "model" just exiting the boat: In the video he is looking at the camera and in the posted picture he is looking somewhere else.
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Camera settings: At the beggining the lens is set to MF when the photographer seems to start shoting. Then it appears changed to AF.
Shutter selector: At the beggining and during most of the video is set to "C"(continuous), but in the last shot it appears on "S" single
The shot of the "model" just exiting the boat: In the video he is looking at the camera and in the posted picture he is looking somewhere else.
And we have the winner!
FranciscoDisilvestro.
Well spotted Francisco!
Demonstrating the speed of focus with the auto focus off ???!!!!
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They had a non-pro actor, a dealer/photographer who is a standup and knowledgable guy but not extensively experienced with making videos, and a location environment. They also had one camera man. So I'd imagine they took several takes and edited together the final result. The one where he's talking the camera is on MF. When they cut to him shooting the camera is on AF (note his hands are not turning the focus).
I'd imagine the take where he was talking with the camera set to MF ended with "o crap the camera was on MF, let's start a new take" but was the take where his speech was the best and so was used in the final edit.
More to the point... its advertising. I hate to break it to you, but brushing your teeth with Colgate isn't going to transform you into a handsome 30-year old with perfectly pearly white teeth, and eating Wheeties for breakfast won't turn you into a world class athlete.
Suggested cultural references:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Drumhead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
If the DF body weighs the same as a duck Phase One are run by witches.
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I find nothing misleading about this video from Phase One---marketing, advertising, or whatever you want to call it. It's just simply not remarkable. What I do find enormously misleading is the initiation of this thread with the inference that the video itself is misleading. Oh my, conspiracy theorists unite. *sarcasm*
If anyone finds themselves somehow/someway misled by a manufacturer's claims, file a complaint with the FTC and be done with it. But I'll place bets (that's just the attorney in me) that you really should be in the class of consumers to have standing. In other words, you actually have purchased and used a Phase One DF and recent MFDB---oh, and maybe used it for more than 562 frames. If a serious amateur or professional studio has $US 20K-40K to spend on a camera system I should hope they have the intelligence to contact reputable dealers and try the various systems for themselves and see if it suits their workflow, expectations, and personal likes. I use whatever tools suits me best, whether that be a DSLR or MFDB, and sometimes it gets really subjective into just what suits my fancy that day.
The paternalistic nonsense I can do without.
::)
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I find nothing misleading about this video from Phase One---marketing, advertising, or whatever you want to call it. It's just simply not remarkable. What I do find enormously misleading is the initiation of this thread with the inference that the video itself is misleading. Oh my, conspiracy theorists unite. *sarcasm*
If anyone finds themselves somehow/someway misled by a manufacturer's claims, file a complaint with the FTC and be done with it. But I'll place bets (that's just the attorney in me) that you really should be in the class of consumers to have standing. In other words, you actually have purchased and used a Phase One DF and recent MFDB---oh, and maybe used it for more than 562 frames. If a serious amateur or professional studio has $US 20K-40K to spend on a camera system I should hope they have the intelligence to contact reputable dealers and try the various systems for themselves and see if it suits their workflow, expectations, and personal likes. I use whatever tools suits me best, whether that be a DSLR or MFDB, and sometimes it gets really subjective into just what suits my fancy that day.
The paternalistic nonsense I can do without.
::)
+1 ;D
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Doug,
Good call on the videos.... :D I was thinking about posting something about a witch hunt earlier but the Monty Python sketch was perfect!
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:-) :-)
I hate to break it to you, but brushing your teeth with Colgate isn't going to transform you into a handsome 30-year old with perfectly pearly white teeth, and eating Wheeties for breakfast won't turn you into a world class athlete.
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So now for round two of the "detective game".
There is something else wrong with the video beyond the MF or AF setting on the lens.
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I find nothing misleading about this video from Phase One---marketing, advertising, or whatever you want to call it. It's just simply not remarkable. What I do find enormously misleading is the initiation of this thread with the inference that the video itself is misleading. Oh my, conspiracy theorists unite. *sarcasm*
If anyone finds themselves somehow/someway misled by a manufacturer's claims, file a complaint with the FTC and be done with it. But I'll place bets (that's just the attorney in me) that you really should be in the class of consumers to have standing. In other words, you actually have purchased and used a Phase One DF and recent MFDB---oh, and maybe used it for more than 562 frames. If a serious amateur or professional studio has $US 20K-40K to spend on a camera system I should hope they have the intelligence to contact reputable dealers and try the various systems for themselves and see if it suits their workflow, expectations, and personal likes. I use whatever tools suits me best, whether that be a DSLR or MFDB, and sometimes it gets really subjective into just what suits my fancy that day.
The paternalistic nonsense I can do without.
::)
A couple of things.
First of all a recent medium format digital back is not a relevant argument for several reasons.
1)The back in the video is a P series back, not a recent one.
2) Auto focus is not affected by the back. It is a function of the camera body.
The back may affect overall frame s per second due to different cache and write times.
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Nice video!
Not that it's relevant in the context, but this was also fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ&feature=relmfu
Best regards
Erik
Doug,
Good call on the videos.... :D I was thinking about posting something about a witch hunt earlier but the Monty Python sketch was perfect!
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So now for round two of the "detective game".
There is something else wrong with the video beyond the MF or AF setting on the lens.
"The State Department is infested with communists. I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the State Department."
- Joseph McCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy)
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Not that it's relevant in the context, but this was also fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ&feature=relmfu
"Name your favorite Monty Python sketch" - now THAT's a fun game.
How about Cheese Shop?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0
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Yet another example of Fred's dislike toward digital medium format and if it's not shot with a Fuji then is can't be good behavior. This got old on the other forum and it's old here.
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"Name your favorite Monty Python sketch" - now THAT's a fun game.
How about Cheese Shop?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0
You really can't go wrong with Monty Python. I've taken John Cleese 's portrait.
He is priceless... I've never laughed so much....
One of my favorite video's is The Ministry of Silly walks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w&feature=related)
Hey... the guy looking for funding has a good walk... the little pause thing could even help slow focusing systems ;) ;D ..... just kidding around ;)
But seriously speaking anyone that can keep a straight face when Mrs Two Lumps comes in with the coffee has the best self control skills possible!!!
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Here is a classic for photographers.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT3_UCm1A5I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT3_UCm1A5I)
Nudge Nudge....
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Monty Python on Logic and being irritated by lack of logic!
I love this monologue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZqs36C5sgM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZqs36C5sgM)
Up there with the best of Tom Sharp
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Yet another example of Fred's dislike toward digital medium format and if it's not shot with a Fuji then is can't be good behavior. This got old on the other forum and it's old here.
It understandingly also got banned on the other forum!!!
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"Name your favorite Monty Python sketch" - now THAT's a fun game.
How about Cheese Shop?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHKx0
Reminds me of this one....
http://www.hulu.com/watch/4262 (http://www.hulu.com/watch/4262)
Samurai Delicatesen
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Also of oblique relevance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
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Also of oblique relevance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
This too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K8_jgiNqUc&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K8_jgiNqUc&feature=relmfu)
Could it be that I'm Brian getting beaten up by the Biggus Backusses ;)..... please read this just as a joke and no more :)
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Monty Python, John Clease, Michael Palin are very good and at a very high artistic and funny levels!
The acqusations made on P1 video, along with the OPs, complete erroneous rampage at anything medium format digital, medium format camera - except his long since discontinued ancient obsulete old Fuji - seem to come across as stemming from sheer mental imparity.
And what it does to credibility in photography or of photographic gear? No, not referring to P1, they are reputable indeed...
At least my 100% frank open view.
Best,
A
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I wish all commercials were honest...like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-RLqLx1iYI
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Monty Python, John Clease, Michael Palin are very good and at a very high artistic and funny levels!
The acqusations made on P1 video, along with the OPs, complete erroneous rampage at anything medium format digital, medium format camera - except his long since discontinued ancient obsulete old Fuji - seem to come across as stemming from sheer mental imparity.
And what it does to credibility in photography or of photographic gear? No, not referring to P1, they are reputable indeed...
At least my 100% frank open view.
Best,
A
Sheer mental imparity!
You on the other hand take a strong position on the DF video despite not having owned one. I have and unfortunately it can't do what it claims is done in the video.
However image quality on way more static work is excellent.
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Has anyone else noticed that you can't hear the auto focus motor
at any point in the video or see the lens focusing grip move?
The auto focus motor is quite noisy and close enough to the sound of the shutter that it should be heard in video.
Anyone that has used the DF knows that the focus has to be turned on in two places.
On the body and the lens if the lens has either an auto focus ring or the push pull mechanism such as that on the
150mm 2.8 IF.
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We're done.
Michael