Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: henrikfoto on October 04, 2012, 09:16:34 am
-
I want to leave the Phase DF and mostly want to go to Hy6.
The price I got to rebuild my Aptus 12 to Hy6 is more than 6.000$..... a lot more than expected.
An alternative is to change it to Hasselblad H. I have a H4X which is very good.
This conversion is a lot cheaper, but my only worry is that the optics for the H might be very good
on the 80 mp back. The resolution might be ok in the middle, but not in the edges?
Has any of you tested the H optics with a 80mp back?
Or maybe some of you have thoughts about this combination?
Henrik
-
Hi,
Lloyd Chambers tested two lenses, the 100/2.2 and some other wideangle. The wideangle was not a good sample. He considered both lenses unacceptable, on a 50MP back. I don't know if his test is relevant, but he used to be a serious tester.
Best regards
Erik
I want to leave the Phase DF and mostly want to go to Hy6.
The price I got to rebuild my Aptus 12 to Hy6 is more than 6.000$..... a lot more than expected.
An alternative is to change it to Hasselblad H. I have a H4X which is very good.
This conversion is a lot cheaper, but my only worry is that the optics for the H might be very good
on the 80 mp back. The resolution might be ok in the middle, but not in the edges?
Has any of you tested the H optics with a 80mp back?
Or maybe some of you have thoughts about this combination?
Henrik
-
Lloyd Chambers tested two lenses, the 120/2.2 and some other wideangle. The wideangle was not a good sample. He considered both lenses unacceptable, on a 50MP back. I don't know if his test is relevant, but he used to be a serious tester.
Henrik, your dealer can't provide you a unit to test with a variety of lenses? We've done this for several IQ/Credo 60 and 80 upgrades on the H platform. The results have been mixed and very much dependent on expectations and points of comparison. A fashion shooter with a 100/2.2 is unlikely to put anything in the corner and value the look of the image and sharpness in the inner-two-thirds of the frame over anything else. An architectural shooter using the 35 is often hyper critical of the outside corners. I've seen everything from complete satisfaction to mild disgust (I could easily say the same about the lenses from every SLR we work with so this is not a blast on Hassy at all).
My point is that you're likely to get a range of answers, all of which will be valid - for the person providing that answer. As usual the best answer is for you to use such a kit and see how it behaves for you and your needs with your subjects.
My personal answer from my own shooting is the 100 and 120 are great lenses even with an 80mp demand on them.
-
Thank you, both!
There is no such conbination in Norway. All 80 mp backs here are sold for the Phase/Mamiya.
So I can't get to test it.
I am mostly shooting products and people, and am not so worried about the very outer part of the sircle.
Doug, would you say the inner 2/3 of the sircle is good enough to get the maximum out of the 80mp?
Henrik
-
And is the viwfinder of the H bright enough to focus correctly with MF V-lenses and a 80 mp back?
-
Henrik,
Viewfinder is very bright, but problem is : that it is very hard to focus (MF) with 80Mp back.
H system is very nice, but not perfect. Nice lens from HCD line ( 24, 28, 35-90 ) cover up to 50Mp ... So you will have crop when use such lens with 80mp back. If you need 50mm and 120mm try to get MKII version.
-
Ok. Thanks!
Will these mk2 lenses (50 and 120 mm) cover a bit more than the older version, or are they just sharper?
Henrik
-
Hi,
Lloyd Chambers tested two lenses, the 120/2.2 and some other wideangle. The wideangle was not a good sample. He considered both lenses unacceptable, on a 50MP back. I don't know if his test is relevant, but he used to be a serious tester.
Best regards
Erik
No H lens that is a 120/2.2
The 120 is a 4 and covers the full film frame (so it covers all sensors)
Part from the newer "crop" lenses I would not worry about lens quality from Fujinons.
They do just fine with the 200MP back:
Zoom in on this
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/milo-profi-image-1.aspx (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/milo-profi-image-1.aspx)
-
Ok. Thanks!
Will these mk2 lenses (50 and 120 mm) cover a bit more than the older version, or are they just sharper?
Henrik
The 50mm is a "crop" lens. (edit) Not officially, but resolution and light falloff are very high in the area cropped on other cropped models. It is also part of Hasselblads newer lens design strategy. Higher vignetting and distortion
and then rely on software to correct it.
What it interesting is that they publish the MTF graph that it prior to software distortion correction.
While the lens may show higher sharpness on the pre processed image, resolution always declines when pixels are pushed around
by software as does contrast and dynamic range (in the corners) when the software has to brighten up the corners.
-
The new 50 is not a crop lens... stop spreading misinformation.
There are several lenses that have been made to cover the 49x37 area. These are; HCD28/4.0, HCD24, HCD35-90. Sofar these are the only ones. You can use them on the larger 60MP backs but this will lead to some lesser corners and mild vignetting. In some cases this is not really important in others you certainly do not want it. On the 60 you have about 55good MP's.
Yes, part of the design strategy is to allow some forms of imperfections that can be easily corrected with software in favor of a lens that can be produced and sold cheaper. Some people believe this to be bad others feel that as using all options as effective as possible. Take your pick...
-
But is the lens-correction in C1 as good as Hasselblads own corrections?
I use a Leaf back.
Henrik
-
Or maybe 80 mp on a Contax would be nice?
-
The 50mm is a "crop" lens. It is also part of Hasselblads newer lens design strategy. Higher vignetting and distortion
and then rely on software to correct it.
What it interesting is that they publish the MTF graph that it prior to software distortion correction.
While the lens may show higher sharpness on the pre processed image, resolution always declines when pixels are pushed around
by software as does contrast and dynamic range (in the corners) when the software has to brighten up the corners.
It is something new to me. For sure HC 50 MKII is not a crop lens !!
-
But is the lens-correction in C1 as good as Hasselblads own corrections?
I use a Leaf back.
I can't speak for direct comparison but I find the lens correction in C1 to be excellent. In particular the sharpness falloff correction, chromatic aberration removal, and purple fringing removal I find to be consistently better than any other processor with the least complicated controls.
Capture One also includes automatic leveling (horizon correction) and automatic key-stoning (perspective correction) based on the tilt/yaw metadata the IQ includes in the raw file. Until I started shooting with an IQ I had no idea how many of my images were off by half a degree, or how much I would care once given the ability to correct the horizon all images from a shoot in a few seconds.
And automatic removal of dust (provided you do an LCC shot at some point in the shoot).
-
I can't speak for direct comparison but I find the lens correction in C1 to be excellent. In particular the sharpness falloff correction, chromatic aberration removal, and purple fringing removal I find to be consistently better than any other processor with the least complicated controls.
I'm curious.
Is the latest version of high megapixel backs require more lens corrections?
I've used my Contax and p21+, p30+ for a long time and never used lens corrections. Admittedly, I don't shoot interiors or architecture so lining up walls is not that high on my list, but I do shoot into bright backlight, sidelight, fairly long exposures, mixed with flash and practical lighting and rarely, very, very rarely have ever seen any CA, or lens detraction.
In fact we just finished a project where we want more grit to the image so on the p30+ we shot at iso 400, which put me at F 16 for the majority of the shoot. I never saw any softness or detraction from those old zeiss lenses, in fact they are freaky sharp. If anything those old zeiss lenses are sometimes too sharp.
One thing I have noticed with my cameras is how much better the look of processing is in the last two years, with C-1 and the latest versions of Lightroom. Previously I thought the Phase backs were way too color sensitive and now it seems that skin tones are much more manageable and ambient color seems to pollute the image less.
Anyway, my point is, do the very high 50mp and 80mp cameras more sensitive in Focus, CA and detraction?
IMO
BC
-
Not after software corrections. CA and distortion is gone. At least on 60mp it is. I have seen good things with the 80 MP's as well but have not used these much (still hoping for the H5D80).
With corrections off some lenses have forms of CA, especially with strong backlighting or mixed sources.
-
I'm curious.
Is the latest version of high megapixel backs require more lens corrections?
I've used my Contax and p21+, p30+ for a long time and never used lens corrections. Admittedly, I don't shoot interiors or architecture so lining up walls is not that high on my list, but I do shoot into bright backlight, sidelight, fairly long exposures, mixed with flash and practical lighting and rarely, very, very rarely have ever seen any CA, or lens detraction.
In fact we just finished a project where we want more grit to the image so on the p30+ we shot at iso 400, which put me at F 16 for the majority of the shoot. I never saw any softness or detraction from those old zeiss lenses, in fact they are freaky sharp. If anything those old zeiss lenses are sometimes too sharp.
One thing I have noticed with my cameras is how much better the look of processing is in the last two years, with C-1 and the latest versions of Lightroom. Previously I thought the Phase backs were way too color sensitive and now it seems that skin tones are much more manageable and ambient color seems to pollute the image less.
Anyway, my point is, do the very high 50mp and 80mp cameras more sensitive in Focus, CA and detraction?
Resolution does allow you to see further into any given image and therefore allows you to more easily notice things like CA and sharpness falloff.
But the bigger difference is your sensors are both 1.3 crops and most chromatic aberration and sharpness fall off is in the edges of the full frame.
Worst case scenario for chromatic aberration is wide open shooting with high contrast highly detailed subject in the corners of the frame.
You won't notice distortion unless you shoot a lot of geometrically important subject matter (e.g. windows on a multi-story building), and (unless you're super picky) you won't notice it except on the lenses wider than 50. Architectural shooters obsess about distortion - many other genres are not that effected by it.
The only lens correction I'd advise you (specifically you - knowing you fairly well) to worry about is the purple fringing correction. If you have a specular highlight in the frame (anywhere in the frame) chances are it has some purple fringing that you may not even notice that much until you remove it. Given that all you need to do in Capture One is "select all", then check the box called "purple fringing" and hit the "apply to all" icon (maybe 3 seconds worth of work) it's definitely worth your effort.
-
The new 50 is not a crop lens... stop spreading misinformation.
Wrote that in a bit of a rush... I have added an edit... I'll elaborate more later....
The point I was getting at is that the 50mm II is a newer design and it is in part based on a design made to use lens correction software rather than achieve a perfect image right out of the lens.
There are pros and cons to this.
The reason why I bring this up is that the OP is asking about these lenses on a FF 80MP sensor and is debating between Hasselblad or H6Y.
I think it's usefull for him to know that this rather dramatic drop of quality in the corners (and closer to the corners) will be quite evident with a FF 80mp sensor.
A look at Hasselblads published charts shows this quite clearly...
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8459/8054819282_030062a823_c.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8035/8054819204_279ae19787_c.jpg)
Here are the charts overlaid
As you can see the quality level in the area that would have been cropped (if Hasselblad had chosen too) is really low and the falloff in quality is very dramatic.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8171/8054819244_705e59ed87_c.jpg)
Even the light drop off is two stops.
Now all that said quality drop off at the edges of images often looks quite nice... bringing concentration and attention to the central subject.
However for many that is not something that they like to see.
-
Thank you, Fred!
These MTFs don't look very promissing. These lenses are really just good for 30x30mm..
What about Contax 645 and a 80mp back?
I use one with a P20, and that works very good. And the lenses are nice and easily draws the full frame.
But has anyone tried it with the Aptus 12 or theIQ180??
Henrik
-
Hi,
Image height is really distance from center. If you use an IQ 180 the corners would be at 33.6 mm in the MTF diagram. So corners are probably much better than what you wouldthink. A problem with MTF diagrams is really that they are intended for small enlargements or film.
The physical resolution of the Phase One sensor is close 100 lp/mm while the lowest curve goes to 40 lp/mm.
You can compare MTF and MTF for Hasselblad lenses is available from Hasselblad, both Zeiss and Hasselblad. The H-series have better MTF graphs than the old Zeiss lenses. A lens that performs subpar at 40 lp/mm will also be subpar at 80lp/mm.
Making use of an 80MP back may get a bit esoteric. You need to keep aperture up, achive dead on focus, keep camera vibrations out, shim the back to 0.01mm tolerance. The best performace can probably be achieved with a techical camera, like the Alpa used by Mark Dubovoy.
There are lenses for digital sensors made by Schneider and Rodenstock. They are called thinks like HR Digitar.
You could check out http://www.diglloyd.com for more info. It costs a couple of dollars but Lloyd has an unbelievable amount of info.
It seems that quite a few folks own high end digital backs and use with standard cameras and lenses, so your mileage may vary. Diglloyd tested a Nikon D800 against a Leica S2 and the Nikon was much better in the corners. The Nikon was tested with a Zeiss Macro Planar ZF. Worth of note is that it took Lloyd five series of focus brackets to achieve two totally sharp series of pictures with the Leica. On the Nikon he used live view focus and nailed it directly. MF needs live view badly, in my view.
Best regards
Erik
What about Contax 645 and a 80mp back?
I use one with a P20, and that works very good. And the lenses are nice and easily draws the full frame.
But has anyone tried it with the Aptus 12 or theIQ180??
Henrik
-
Thank you Erik for pointing out that the distance is from center to corners and appr. 33mm on the 645 sensors (60 & 80MP). Fred, you should take the graph for the new HC50 version2 which you can find at http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/2459977/hc50-ii%20v2.pdf
HB thought the older version was not good enough so they made the version 2. Careful checking of its MTF shows it is still very good 33mm out of the center.
Did you show the graph of the old HC50 version on purpose or was that a convenient mistake??
-
Thank you, Fred!
These MTFs don't look very promissing. These lenses are really just good for 30x30mm..
Henrik and others consifering mfdb,
It is flat amazing of the above "experts" on mfdb that do 1) not shoot mfdb and/or 2) never produced good images with mfdb, and not so with latest backs. I suggest to ignore them and what they claim of lenses etc and listen to those actually using the systems with the backs you are considering. Fred seems on his personal crusade against mfdb, per his other threads in these forums...
Henrik,
Viewfinder is very bright, but problem is : that it is very hard to focus (MF) with 80Mp back.
I do shoot with 80MP Leaf AFi-II 12 back on Rolleiflex Hy6, check my website andersloof.com, where all beauty images and the first number shots under China from Yuen Yuen is with this combo.
I prior used 28MP Leaf on Mamiya 645AFD III including some of Mamiyas best lenses. Following is my experience.
The Rolleiflex Zeiss lenses are similar to Hassy V lenses (some of them sharper still, and the 110/2 more legendary than the Hassy version), while the Schneider are arguably sharper still, to point of being the sharpest in medium format and sharper than 35mm lenses. Yet they have very similar wonderful characters as Hassy V lenses!. I get perfect sharp focus and images, assuming I hold the camera still. All those I referenced were shot hand held and some significant lower shutter than I prior shot my Mamia with. Why?
1) Focus accuracy of Hy6 is very precise indeed, both AF and using focus indicators the MF. AF makes simple to nail the shot per considering the size of the focus sensor.
2) because I use WLF finder I do not have to lift the weight of camera up to my head, but instead cradle hold the camera which is a more steady supporting means to hold a camera.
I only use two lenses, a Schneider 80mm AF PQS Xenotar 2.8 and a Zeiss 50mm Distagon FLE. Both are very very sharp indeed, and the FLE per what I know is much similar to the Hassy V version. The Xenotar is arguably the sharpest and best character lens I have ever owned and is nearly glued to camera...
The Hy6 is like a modern version of Hassy V but with better ergonomics and balance, and with AF and more. I am very happy with this camera. It has improved my photography because I see better on the large 6x6cm focus screen and how the camera handles. It seems most who have used the camera states it to be the best camera for MFDB. I found Mamiya AFDIII system with lenses terrible in comparison.
Leaf also offere the new Credo back for Hy6 camera, but the AFi-II version offer rotating sensor and tilt display that the Credo do not. I find them very useful indeed and will not upgrade. Additionally DHW at Photokina announced their Mod 2 of Hy6 camera and that they had been given rights to further develop it. That is good news indeed. My Leaf agent in Hong Kong introduced me to Hy6, and I am happy he did. It is the best system for digital I ever shot.
The files from the 80MP back are superb. Like I said it does quire steady hand and I have to keep reminding myself of this. Personally I believe I would have failed to get as steady shots using 80MP on Mamiya 645 system, thus same issue may even be for Hassy H since requires lifing weight of camera to head level, and I believe Hassy V has weekness of not same well ergonomically as Hy6 and because you on V focus with focus screen. Do note that 80MP do require to hold camera very steady. Of course if you would like you can use also 45 and 90 degrees finders, the 45 is the brighter of them but WLF is even brighter.
I expect someone sitting in couch may now make a search of mtf for the Rollei 110/2 and argue it is not fully sharp across the frame. Then is time to ask if viewers will pixel peep or actually look at the pictures produced??? As amateur I am not getting the 110/2 because $$$ etc, but instead get a similar character using my Xenotar and extension ring using near focus. My argument is that the image is what matters and that e.g. Mamiya with e.g. 45mm D has considered only sharpness and lost out on characters. I found the 45mm D a boring lens and love my Xenotar. That 110/2 and all Rolleiflex lenses have their own lovely characters just like the V lenses... and are very sharp indeed in right condition. The Xenotar is tack sharp using 80MP @ f/2.8 indeed...
I hope above helps. Feel free to PM for more.
Best regards,
Anders
-
Did you show the graph of the old HC50 version on purpose or was that a convenient mistake??
That is about the most childish behavior I have seen from a fanboy........ ::) ::)
The graphs I posted were clearly labeled. I was in no way trying to pass off the 50mm for the 50mm II.
You may also want to take a close look at the last two charts for the HC50 II. The illumination drop off
is still just over two stops and distortion at -1.6.
Someone shopping for a lens for an 80MP sensor should keep this in mind.
The correction required to even out the illumination is effectively pushing those areas two stops
and then on top of that there is the interpolation resulting in resolution loss when moving the pixels
to remove the distortion.
AGAIN the OP is considering a change from the DF system where he will be leaving behind the Schnieder lenses.
He may after seeing this prefer to keep the MF DSLR he has now and get a tech camera for his 80MP.
He may also be better off with the Hy6 and it's larger image circles. One thing is for sure. The viewfinder
options of the Hy6 would be better suited for precision manual focus.
-
Hi,
Anders has a good point. I don't shoot MFDB. On the other hand Hasselblad actually publishes MTF data measured in their own lab. Hasselblad is also doing lens testing for the Swedish periodical "Foto" which used to be Aktuell Fotografi. The same tests were published on the Photodo site.
No doubt, excellent results are possible with both Zeiss and H-series lenses. Another question is if those lenses are good enough to extract maximum performance from an 80 MP back.
Lloyd Chambers test indicate that the H-series lenses he tested were not on par with the sensor. I would also suggest that if you plan to spend something like 20-50 kUSD on an MF equipment it would be a good investment to subscribe to Diglloyd's site at about 25$. He has samples from Nikon D800, Leica S2 and Hasselblad H3D50, among others.
Another good source of realistic samples is http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/ by Tim Parkin. Lot of good writing on that site.
One observation I hade when looking at the old "Photodo" site was that the Zeiss MF lenses they tested were quite weak. The best MF lenses in their tests were the Mamiya 7 lenses.
I see nothing wrong with evaluating tests made by others. I don't think that I would be able to construct better tests than Hasselblad or Diglloyd if I arranged a short time loan or rental of an MFDB and a couple of lenses. To begin with, how would I know if sensor and ground glass were in perfect alignment in rental equipment?
Best regards
Erik
Henrik and others consifering mfdb,
It is flat amazing of the above "experts" on mfdb that do 1) not shoot mfdb and/or 2) never produced good images with mfdb, and not so with latest backs. I suggest to ignore them and what they claim of lenses etc and listen to those actually using the systems with the backs you are considering. Fred seems on his personal crusade against mfdb, per his other threads in these forums...
I do shoot with 80MP Leaf AFi-II 12 back on Rolleiflex Hy6, check my website andersloof.com, where all beauty images and the first number shots under China from Yuen Yuen is with this combo.
I prior used 28MP Leaf on Mamiya 645AFD III including some of Mamiyas best lenses. Following is my experience.
The Rolleiflex Zeiss lenses are similar to Hassy V lenses (some of them sharper still, and the 110/2 more legendary than the Hassy version), while the Schneider are arguably sharper still, to point of being the sharpest in medium format and sharper than 35mm lenses. Yet they have very similar wonderful characters as Hassy V lenses!. I get perfect sharp focus and images, assuming I hold the camera still. All those I referenced were shot hand held and some significant lower shutter than I prior shot my Mamia with. Why?
1) Focus accuracy of Hy6 is very precise indeed, both AF and using focus indicators the MF. AF makes simple to nail the shot per considering the size of the focus sensor.
2) because I use WLF finder I do not have to lift the weight of camera up to my head, but instead cradle hold the camera which is a more steady supporting means to hold a camera.
I only use two lenses, a Schneider 80mm AF PQS Xenotar 2.8 and a Zeiss 50mm Distagon FLE. Both are very very sharp indeed, and the FLE per what I know is much similar to the Hassy V version. The Xenotar is arguably the sharpest and best character lens I have ever owned and is nearly glued to camera...
The Hy6 is like a modern version of Hassy V but with better ergonomics and balance, and with AF and more. I am very happy with this camera. It has improved my photography because I see better on the large 6x6cm focus screen and how the camera handles. It seems most who have used the camera states it to be the best camera for MFDB. I found Mamiya AFDIII system with lenses terrible in comparison.
Leaf also offere the new Credo back for Hy6 camera, but the AFi-II version offer rotating sensor and tilt display that the Credo do not. I find them very useful indeed and will not upgrade. Additionally DHW at Photokina announced their Mod 2 of Hy6 camera and that they had been given rights to further develop it. That is good news indeed. My Leaf agent in Hong Kong introduced me to Hy6, and I am happy he did. It is the best system for digital I ever shot.
The files from the 80MP back are superb. Like I said it does quire steady hand and I have to keep reminding myself of this. Personally I believe I would have failed to get as steady shots using 80MP on Mamiya 645 system, thus same issue may even be for Hassy H since requires lifing weight of camera to head level, and I believe Hassy V has weekness of not same well ergonomically as Hy6 and because you on V focus with focus screen. Do note that 80MP do require to hold camera very steady. Of course if you would like you can use also 45 and 90 degrees finders, the 45 is the brighter of them but WLF is even brighter.
I expect someone sitting in couch may now make a search of mtf for the Rollei 110/2 and argue it is not fully sharp across the frame. Then is time to ask if viewers will pixel peep or actually look at the pictures produced??? As amateur I am not getting the 110/2 because $$$ etc, but instead get a similar character using my Xenotar and extension ring using near focus. My argument is that the image is what matters and that e.g. Mamiya with e.g. 45mm D has considered only sharpness and lost out on characters. I found the 45mm D a boring lens and love my Xenotar. That 110/2 and all Rolleiflex lenses have their own lovely characters just like the V lenses... and are very sharp indeed in right condition. The Xenotar is tack sharp using 80MP @ f/2.8 indeed...
I hope above helps. Feel free to PM for more.
Best regards,
Anders
-
That is about the most childish behavior I have seen from a fanboy........ ::) ::)
I understand you do not like it when being pointed towards things you are saying that are incorrect but trying to insult someone personally is not necessary.
Not sure what I am a fan boy of since I like and have worked with basically every tool and brand you can think off. Some I really liked others less, all of them have things that make them less than ideal under circumstances.
Anyway, again you point something that is not entirely correct. That fall off on the HC50II is only that severe wide-open which is pretty common on many lenses. stopping down rapidly solves this.
Having said that the Rodenstock HR's and Schneider Digitars of this world smoke the HC lenses but have drawbacks too.
-
I understand you do not like it when being pointed towards things you are saying that are incorrect but trying to insult someone personally is not necessary.
Not sure what I am a fan boy of since I like and have worked with basically every tool and brand you can think off. Some I really liked others less, all of them have things that make them less than ideal under circumstances.
Anyway, again you point something that is not entirely correct. That fall off on the HC50II is only that severe wide-open which is pretty common on many lenses. stopping down rapidly solves this.
Having said that the Rodenstock HR's and Schneider Digitars of this world smoke the HC lenses but have drawbacks too.
Exactly my point.... with an 80 MP sensor the better choice of wide angle would be Rodenstock HR's and Schneider Digitars
Regarding insults... accusing me of deliberately trying to pass one graph for another when both were clearly labeled.
That is a totally uncalled for insult seeing that I went out of my way to post them.
But I should not respond to the provocation ;)
-
Lloyd Chambers test indicate that the H-series lenses he tested were not on par with the sensor. I would also suggest that if you plan to spend something like 20-50 kUSD on an MF equipment it would be a good investment to subscribe to Diglloyd's site at about 25$. He has samples from Nikon D800, Leica S2 and Hasselblad H3D50, among others.
He has samples of everything... I would say best is to speak to those who shoot with the lenses and back one is interested in.
I do not know the H-series lenses, but as I pointed out a very steady hand and holding breath is required for steady hand held shots with 80MP. Not so can make the "lenses not look so good". I am just saying...
Erik, there are also different series of V-lenses which makes difference.
-
Hi,
I checked trough a lot of MTF graphs produced by Hasselblad. The optical configuration doesn't seem to much different between Zeiss lenses.
Regarding 80MP, I really presume that you need to have the camera on a sturdy tripod and use every precaution to take advantage of the resolution.
I would check out these two articles:
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html
and
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html
I'm sort of the guy who just shoots DSLR at 24MP but still I use a very good tripod and mirror lockup for serious shooting.
In my view it is very much adequate to check others writing. Diglloyd is serious about his testing and has a lot of experience with different tools. A photographer who uses just one system doesn't have a reference point. The way the original posting was asked I would presume that poster wants to have maximum quality from his back.
Most lenses are pretty good on axis (close to the center) at moderate apertures. Th major differences used to show up in the corners.
Best regards
Erik
He has samples of everything... I would say best is to speak to those who shoot with the lenses and back one is interested in.
I do not know the H-series lenses, but as I pointed out a very steady hand and holding breath is required for steady hand held shots with 80MP. Not so can make the "lenses not look so good". I am just saying...
Erik, there are also different series of V-lenses which makes difference.
-
I checked trough a lot of MTF graphs produced by Hasselblad. The optical configuration doesn't seem to much different between Zeiss lenses.
Regarding 80MP, I really presume that you need to have the camera on a sturdy tripod and use every precaution to take advantage of the resolution.
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html
I'm sort of the guy who just shoots DSLR at 24MP but still I use a very good tripod and mirror lockup for serious shooting.
Erik, apologies...but...
And ? ? .
- Did you shoot with these lenses you make comment about ? 80MP ?
- regarding Hassy V you are of course aware that it was introduced at end of 1950's and there are optic and fabrication differences? http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLenses.aspx Hassy H I do not know.
- 80MP on tripod... did you read my experience above of shooting 80MP on Hy6 >>>HANDHELD<<< ?
- tripod in studio with a model is a general poor idea. Lighting of course is best if suffice for 50 iso for optimum image quality.
- joseph holmes... So what ?? ? Rolleiflex lenses indeed result in very sharp images for 80MP. I mean, the ones I mention I use are >>>SHARP<<< and result in pixel peeping sharpness. In end I make pictures.
- for lanscape I too use tripod, however no need with MLU in most situations because Hy6 mirror is very very well dampened.
Best regards,
Anders
-
For Hassy H reply was here;
Henrik, your dealer can't provide you a unit to test with a variety of lenses? We've done this for several IQ/Credo 60 and 80 upgrades on the H platform. The results have been mixed and very much dependent on expectations and points of comparison. A fashion shooter with a 100/2.2 is unlikely to put anything in the corner and value the look of the image and sharpness in the inner-two-thirds of the frame over anything else. An architectural shooter using the 35 is often hyper critical of the outside corners. I've seen everything from complete satisfaction to mild disgust (I could easily say the same about the lenses from every SLR we work with so this is not a blast on Hassy at all).
My point is that you're likely to get a range of answers, all of which will be valid - for the person providing that answer. As usual the best answer is for you to use such a kit and see how it behaves for you and your needs with your subjects.
My personal answer from my own shooting is the 100 and 120 are great lenses even with an 80mp demand on them.
-
Hi,
The Photodo tests were published in the mid nineties. The MTF data I looked at Hasselblad was quite recent. I checked the H lenes against the Zeiss ones perhaps a year ago. All the H lenses I checked were better than the corresponding Zeiss lenses, including the famous 250/5.6 Super Achromat, so I don't see your point about the 1950 lenses. You suggest that we shouldn't care about Hasselblads own data?
I'm surprised that you are shooting handheld. I always use a tripod for serious shooting at least if it is convenient. I need it for composition and accurate focusing.
Shooting in studio with short duration electronic flash may be different, but focus is quite critical at least with DSLR, I don't see how focus would be less critical with an 80 MP digital back than with a 24 MP DSLR.
The reason I pointed to the Joseph Holmes articles are for two reasons:
- He points out that there is a need of viewfinder magnification to achieve correct focus on MFDBs
- He also found that there is significant sample variation especially on rental backs but also lenses
Joseph Holmes is a serious gut who was shooting large format and transitioned to MF digital. He has a wide experience of MF equipment as he had a lot of students shooting different MF stuff. So I think his experience is quite relevant.
To me it seems a bad investment to spend a lot of money on a high end digital back without optimizing every other aspect of capture.
Anyway, I point to information that the original poster may or may not read. That information may help him to spend his money wisely. I see nothing wrong with that.
I have added MTF curves for Hasselblad HC 100/2.2 (from Hasselblad) and for Rodenstock 100/4 HR Digaron-S. Note that the Rodenstock data is for 10/20/40/80 lp/mm and the Hasselblad data for 10/20/40 lp/mm.
If we check 40 lp data at 20 mm (about half way from center) Hasselblad has about 60% MTF while the Rodenstock is about 78% (average of tagential and sagittal).
Your sensor is around 100 lp/mm.
Keep in mind that the Hasselblad data is probably measured on a typical lens while the Rodenstock data is probably calculated MTF.
Best regards
Erik
Erik, apologies...but...
And ? ? .
- Did you shoot with these lenses you make comment about ? 80MP ?
- regarding Hassy V you are of course aware that it was introduced at end of 1950's and there are optic and fabrication differences? http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLenses.aspx Hassy H I do not know.
- 80MP on tripod... did you read my experience above of shooting 80MP on Hy6 >>>HANDHELD<<< ?
- tripod in studio with a model is a general poor idea. Lighting of course is best if suffice for 50 iso for optimum image quality.
- joseph holmes... So what ?? ? Rolleiflex lenses indeed result in very sharp images for 80MP. I mean, the ones I mention I use are >>>SHARP<<< and result in pixel peeping sharpness. In end I make pictures.
- for lanscape I too use tripod, however no need with MLU in most situations because Hy6 mirror is very very well dampened.
Best regards,
Anders
-
To me it seems a bad investment to spend a lot of money on a high end digital back without optimizing every other aspect of capture.
Erik
+1
-
How many of those here saying you can't shoot handheld on 80MP have actually hand held an 80MP camera????
-
You know what I like? I like hummus. I really do. Best I've had was in Israel. I also like food in Calabria. Cuddlefish stews are simply amazing, so simple and good.
You know what I don't like? All this bitching. Just a take a fucking picture that doesn't suck with whatever gear gets you there. The OP was asking a specific question about H lenses and then it turns into this defensive hedgehog of "You haven't touched one you don't know shit!" position. I haven't used an 80MP back, I don't want to. What I've seen from the 80mp backs is a mixed bag, some really shitty photos and some really great photos, you know, just like in real life, and its dependant on THE PHOTOGRAPHER. I'd rather look at Salgado's Disk Camera prints than most of what I've seen shot on an 80mp back. Frankly, YaYa's links to Aptus 12 images shot on a DF were impressive. One reason they were so impressive is the production and shooter.
And Blad's marketing is sickening and offensive, and I wish people would stop defending it.
-
You know what I like? I like hummus. I really do. Best I've had was in Israel. I also like food in Calabria. Cuddlefish stews are simply amazing, so simple and good.
You know what I don't like? All this bitching. Just a take a fucking picture that doesn't suck with whatever gear gets you there. The OP was asking a specific question about H lenses and then it turns into this defensive hedgehog of "You haven't touched one you don't know shit!" position. I haven't used an 80MP back, I don't want to. What I've seen from the 80mp backs is a mixed bag, some really shitty photos and some really great photos, you know, just like in real life, and its dependant on THE PHOTOGRAPHER. I'd rather look at Salgado's Disk Camera prints than most of what I've seen shot on an 80mp back. Frankly, YaYa's links to Aptus 12 images shot on a DF were impressive. One reason they were so impressive is the production and shooter.
And Blad's marketing is sickening and offensive, and I wish people would stop defending it.
Nice 'n' straight from the shoulder bayou! I like honest opinion.
http://youtu.be/QcriNmPyY-Q
Should cheer you up a bit...
Rob C
-
Hi,
I rechecked Lloyd Chambers article and also the MTF curves. What Lloyd says is that the 100/2.2 HC has nice sharpness in the center but bad corners. He also feels the lens is not really utilizing 50 MP. So Lloyd is not really negative but not positive either.
One interesting aspect is that folks who do a lot of testing can put a certain lens in context. You can compare with a benchmark lens, and you may also discover that something is out of alignment. If you don't shoot a lot of different stuff you wouldn't have a reference.
The MTF graphs of the HC 100/2.2 look pretty impressive to me. As I said before, I checked a lot of MTF data for the HC lenses and they look good compared to older Zeiss lenses.
So, Lloyd says that the HC 100/2.2 cannot utilize the 50 MP back fully. That leaves three possibilities:
1) Lloyd is wrong
2) You can stay with 50 MP and save a lot of money
3) Find a better camera with better lenses
It seems that a lot of folks use IQ180 backs on Alpa bodies with HR Digitars and HR Digarons. The Alpa solves a lot of problems.
- No mirror, causing vibration
- Calibrated focusing scales that can be used with a laser rangefinder
- Shimming the back to the camera
Best regards
Erik
-
How many of those here saying you can't shoot handheld on 80MP have actually hand held an 80MP camera????
I don't think they are saying that you CAN'T shoot with an 80MP camera hand held... they are just saying that it won't really be worth it most of the time.
You only need 5.2 micron vibration during the exposure to actually end up halving the resolution of the projected image.
If anyone want to see what I mean they can do an interesting experiment.
Grab a comparison image taken with a 36 or 40 MP sensor and compare it with an image taken with an 80MP sensor.
Zoom in and see how far you have to go before you see a sharpness difference.
-
You know what I don't like? All this bitching. Just a take a fucking picture that doesn't suck with whatever gear gets you there. The OP was asking a specific question about H lenses and then it turns into this defensive hedgehog of "You haven't touched one you don't know shit!" position. I haven't used an 80MP back, I don't want to. What I've seen from the 80mp backs is a mixed bag, some really shitty photos and some really great photos, you know, just like in real life, and its dependant on THE PHOTOGRAPHER.
I tend to agree.
However, what is really frustrating to the a*(&@ is as soon as there is a thread on MFDB in LuLa where one jump in to advise per ones own experience on the tool, there appear to be some "experts" jump in that do not shoot MFDB and to with MTF charts, articles etc arguing contra and of benefit of DSLR and other means, and plain simply giving false information that go against experienced use of the tool in quesiton. Heck, even the Joseph Holmes applies no less to dslr and dslr lenses that are, unlike mfdb, fabricated in high volume and arguably not with same quality/calibration control.
You know what? Lets have fun; lets take the size of 80MP sensor and convert it to size of 35mm sensor, then we would have 32MP. Last time I looked there was a Nikon which exceeds that... now cannot simply those folks stay and argue of it not being possible to shoot hand held with that one instead of all time bitching up the A#@$&( of folks shooting per choice a different tool called MFDB ? ? ? I bet you sir, that Nikon will be even more frea&*(& more difficult to hold steady...
A 100/2.2 lens not sharp in corners?? Is it necessary ? ? ? What quality of image does the lens bring? It is a TOOL.
Can they please? ?? I guess not...
In my above threads were mere trying be frank and helpful to someone interested in an 80MP back. It is about far more than the pixels, the image quality is a real step up from my prior 28MP Leaf. Not only that, because of the many pixels I can crop the images and even crop out image within image. Likewise the Hy6 camera came as surprise to me and I like it much, as a tool. They are simply great tools that works for me. Else would be simple and I would sell it off and put money in bank. It is all about choice for tool, and what gets you the image the way you want.
Hassy H ? I do not want one, but the camera sure looks loads better than Phase-Mamiya...
As far as Yair, I hold alot of respect for him. He is very helpful and knowledgeable indeed. His posts are not mere marketing. Heck, I do not even feel anyone involved in Leaf product have ever marketed to me. They provide honest and frank information, and in end let us test the backs and send us raw files for our own testing for us to make up our minds. DSLRs? Geewiz, marketing is so strong that people go around dreaming they are miracle machines!!! Any issue with my Leaf, I contact Yair or Gavin in HK who sold me my back. Heck Gavin even reply on Sundays! Anything with my Hy6 I contact CEO of DHW. Try that with Nikon, Canon, Sony etc... Choice of tools.
;)
-
You know what I like? I like hummus. I really do. Best I've had was in Israel.
which one was it? Ask 500 Israelis for their favourite hummus joint and you'll get 500 different answers...
Frankly, YaYa's links to Aptus 12 images shot on a DF were impressive. One reason they were so impressive is the production and shooter
thanks, don't tell anyone but those images were shot handheld with (heaven forbid) manual focus...
-
Hi,
Just a few points:
1) MTF is the standard method of lens evaluation. It's used by Zeiss, Leitz, everyone, and MTF curves presented were given by Hasselblad and Rodenstock. If you are not familiar with MTF you may read these two very good articles by H. H. Nasse of Zeiss:
http://www.smt.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_30_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_EN.pdf
http://www.smt.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_31_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_2_en.pdf
2) Joseph Holmes is a well know large format shooter who converted to MFD. I simply posted a link to two articles he has written. His experience may differ from yours, other customers may be less fortunate. Anyway, Josep Holmes is quite respected in the industry not least for his work on color spaces.
3) In this thread there was no discussion on DSLR vs MFDB, except that Diglloyd compared D800E with Leica S2 and found the D800 sharper at least in the corners. That is a fact. Could be the wrong conclusion. This is a bit of useful information as the systems are at least five times apart in cost.
4) No one stated that it is not possible to shoot handheld with any camera. On the other hand it is widely accepted that it is necessary to take every precaution to reduce vibrations to achieve optimum performance. Both mirror and focal plane shutter may cause camera vibrations.
5) No one said that there is less issue with DSLRs than MFDBs. Diglloyd has sent several of his cameras back to Nikon and Canon for adjustment. It is also well known that Nikon did have issues with one of the AF-sensors being out of adjustment on the D800/D800E. Diglloyd also found that it is not possible to eek the best performance out of the best lenses with AF on todays DSLRs, but live view and live view AF come to rescue.
Regarding pixel sizes, both the Nikon D800 and the Sony Alpha 99 have smaller pixel pitch than the IQ180, and I don't think that anyone ever said that any of those cameras can be shot handheld without loss of quality. I also don't think that anyone ever said that any of those camera could achieve perfect AF, but both cameras do have live view that makes accurate focusing possible. Hi speed lenses have more often than not problems with focus shift, that may even make fool of live view, unless focusing at shooting aperture.
It seems that the latest lenses from Canon and Nikon can achieve much better AF than older lenses on older bodies.
Some folks seem to be able to achieve very good manual focus. It may be easier to achieve with old style manual lenses than with new style AF lenses.
This discussion is simply about finding the best lenses for the most expensive back on the market.
I would add that I shoot Sony, and that camera always sits on a tripod for critical work. I always use MLU and self timer for critical work, and always use live view AF when I can.
I have tested my Sony Alpha 900 (I think it was) on tripod with a 200 mm lens. Without MLU, half the resolution was lost. Antishake did help little. So just not using MLU made my 24MP DSLR into a 6MP DSLR. The images still looked decently sharp, unless I checked really carefully. So I'm quite religious about MLU.
Best regards
Erik
I tend to agree.
However, what is really frustrating to the a*(&@ is as soon as there is a thread on MFDB in LuLa where one jump in to advise per ones own experience on the tool, there appear to be some "experts" jump in that do not shoot MFDB and to with MTF charts, articles etc arguing contra and of benefit of DSLR and other means, and plain simply giving false information that go against experienced use of the tool in quesiton. Heck, even the Joseph Holmes applies no less to dslr and dslr lenses that are, unlike mfdb, fabricated in high volume and arguably not with same quality/calibration control.
You know what? Lets have fun; lets take the size of 80MP sensor and convert it to size of 35mm sensor, then we would have 32MP. Last time I looked there was a Nikon which exceeds that... now cannot simply those folks stay and argue of it not being possible to shoot hand held with that one instead of all time bitching up the A#@$&( of folks shooting per choice a different tool called MFDB ? ? ? I bet you sir, that Nikon will be even more frea&*(& more difficult to hold steady...
A 100/2.2 lens not sharp in corners?? Is it necessary ? ? ?
Can they please? ?? I guess not...
In my above threads were mere trying be frank and helpful to someone interested in an 80MP back. I love mine. It is about far more than the pixels, the image quality is a real step up from my prior 28MP Leaf. Not only that, because of the many pixels I can crop the images and even crop out image within image. Likewise the Hy6 camera came as surprise to me and I like it much, as a tool. They are simply great tools that works for me. Else would be simple and I would sell it off and put money in bank. It is all about choice for tool, and what gets you the image the way you want.
Hassy H ? I do not want one, but the camera sure looks loads better than Phase-Mamiya...
As far as Yair, I hold alot of respect for him. He is very helpful and knowledgeable indeed. His posts are not mere marketing. Heck, I do not even feel anyone involved in Leaf product have ever marketed to me. They provide honest and frank information, and in end let us test the backs and send us raw files for our own testing for us to make up our minds. DSLRs? Geewiz, marketing is so strong that people go around dreaming they are miracle machines!!! Any issue with my Leaf, I contact Yair or Gavin in HK who sold me my back. Heck Gavin even reply on Sundays! Anything with my Hy6 I contact CEO of DHW. Try that with Nikon, Canon, Sony etc... Choice of tools.
;)
-
As far as Yair, I hold alot of respect for him. He is very helpful and knowledgeable indeed. His posts are not mere marketing. Heck, I do not even feel anyone involved in Leaf product have ever marketed to me. They provide honest and frank information, and in end let us test the backs and send us raw files for our own testing for us to make up our minds. DSLRs? Geewiz, marketing is so strong that people go around dreaming they are miracle machines!!! Any issue with my Leaf, I contact Yair or Gavin in HK who sold me my back. Heck Gavin even reply on Sundays! Anything with my Hy6 I contact CEO of DHW. Try that with Nikon, Canon, Sony etc... Choice of tools.
;)
Yair is a straight shooter. No doubt about it.
Yair, I don't remember the name of the Hummus joint in Jerusalem. They spoke French and broken English. No latin text anywhere. This was 1990 or so. I haven't been the same since.
-
Hi,
As our friends pointed out I'm not an MF shooter. What I can say is that I have downloaded test samples for the P65+ from the Phase One site. Those images were shot by Peter Eastway, and I think shown a bridge in front of the opera in Sidney.
Anyway, the images had an awful lot of lateral chroma but lens corrections removed them completely.
So I would say that lateral chroma could be a problem if it was not handled in software. Peter Eastway shot the same image on a Canon 1DsII or (1DsIII), the P65 image was much better. The Canon image was shot with a 17-40/4 zoom and also had a lot of lateral chroma, which also was handled by correction in the raw converter.
I would also add that when you go from say 25MP to 80MP the demand on the lens will be much higher. It can of course be argued that it is seldom more than 25 MP is needed, but I guess that a customer paying for 80MP also wants glass that delivers that resolution.
I include a screenshot of the P65+ image without and with lateral chroma reduction in LR4.2
As a small comment aside, fixed focals seldom have much distortion, except possibly very wide angles. Recently, Hasselblad relaxed some corrections on a few of their lenses so lateral chroma and distortion is handled in software. That may be reasonable approach, if they can use the lens surfaces to correct other issues that cannot be handled in software, like astigmatism and field curvature.
Best regards
Erik
I'm curious.
Is the latest version of high megapixel backs require more lens corrections?
I've used my Contax and p21+, p30+ for a long time and never used lens corrections. Admittedly, I don't shoot interiors or architecture so lining up walls is not that high on my list, but I do shoot into bright backlight, sidelight, fairly long exposures, mixed with flash and practical lighting and rarely, very, very rarely have ever seen any CA, or lens detraction.
In fact we just finished a project where we want more grit to the image so on the p30+ we shot at iso 400, which put me at F 16 for the majority of the shoot. I never saw any softness or detraction from those old zeiss lenses, in fact they are freaky sharp. If anything those old zeiss lenses are sometimes too sharp.
One thing I have noticed with my cameras is how much better the look of processing is in the last two years, with C-1 and the latest versions of Lightroom. Previously I thought the Phase backs were way too color sensitive and now it seems that skin tones are much more manageable and ambient color seems to pollute the image less.
Anyway, my point is, do the very high 50mp and 80mp cameras more sensitive in Focus, CA and detraction?
IMO
BC