Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 12:25:14 am

Title: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+) (SAMPLES)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 12:25:14 am
I just recently decided to get my first MFDB and I am extremely happy with it.

I shoot Fashion and Beauty.

(I don't do commercial, weddings, kids, dogs, plants, buildings, interiors, glamour, food, etc, etc. Not hating on those, I just don't have the talent for those types of shoots)

Anyways, since I started I had been using Nikon, upgrading with their new cameras over and over.

And I would consider this the best SkinTones I had ever got with the Nikon:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7102/7161265786_a815930556_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4002/4541755940_ef8cbcca7b_b.jpg)

I was happy as I could with those tones, but there was still something that didn't feel real, I open the magazines and I see something different, more real, for years I thought it was on my workflow and I tried so much to minimize the retouch as much as just the necessary.

Then, A wild thought went trough my head, maybe it was the camera!? I did notice a big improvement going from DX to FX (crop to full 35mm sensor), so how different it would be from at 35mm to MFDB. It took some time to get my hands on it, but when I did, I got a RZ67 Pro II.
There was a lot of fuss about the immortal Phase One backs that can survive everything, of course wanted to try those first:
Then I have shoot the Phase One P40+, P45 and P45+.
Then I saw the video of Giuliano Bekor having an African Elephant step on a Phase One and then a Hasselblad back. In the middle of his shoot for the BeBe Ad campaign:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFnQVnMY3Co (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFnQVnMY3Co)
So I tried Phase One first.

P45 (no +, apologies for the BW conversion, the client wanted like that for their calendar, but it was pretty much the same as the other Phase One backs)
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6064/6095212519_df1bd2e41f_b.jpg)
Main:BeautyDish

P40+
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8015/7539199000_7178702852_b.jpg)
Main:Natural Light

P45+
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7210/6844934300_66c3108760_b.jpg)
Main:BeautyDish

Tones where much better yes, more detail on the shadows, a very different way to shoot and to think of light. A new concept for me, SHALLOW DOF! (Find out I need to shoot @ F11-22 instead of the usual F4-8 I used to with the Nikon) & more need for light power (with a base ISO of 50 instead of 200 from the D700 loosing another 2 stops there), now I needed 2 or 3 times more power.

But the skin tones did not really convinced me, BeBe's ads like other brands are known for their usual color saturation. But in so many other cases I did not really need that.

I didn't had a back accessible so I went to shoot some film, perhaps Film will give me good file detail:

And talk about detail with a simple Flatbed V600 Scanner!!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7174/6739582151_3028d5dc63_o.jpg)

Ok, thats beyond what any back offers now, and yeah ISO 160 was not all that smooth.

Ok lets see skin tones, shoot more of that Kodak New Portra 160:
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6106/6253824993_4262130217_b.jpg)
Main:BeautyDish/Natural Light
It was ok, getting closer to something, definitively more details than digital so far.

So maybe another film? Here I got Fuji Reala-100 (100 Iso was nice)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7135/7739039452_00a052ddec_b.jpg)
Main:Beauty Dish

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8290/7739055756_ba624348cd_b.jpg)
Main:Beauty Dish

Ok now I was getting close to something, this was much more closer to the image look I wanted.
I must say, much less retouch needed on skin.

Lastly, I read that Leaf was good or better on the skins, so I got one:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8432/7546022476_4acc236bbf_b.jpg)
Main:Beauty Dish

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8429/7728900116_95d26e0a77_b.jpg)
Main:Beauty Dish

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8300/7947580140_ddd647f7b0_b.jpg)
Main:Natural Light

And I won't ever go back. Over all this photo shoots around the world, at least to me, the Leaf Aptus, even with its humble 22 Mpx blew my mind away.
Yes, the MF is a bit slower and different to shoot. But I never liked the idea of "Spray n Pray" shooting, having a quick smaller files camera, makes you shoot and shoot and shoot and then pray that you got something good.
During this shoots, specially on film, there where times I only had 20-30 frames for the whole shoot.
Check this video for a 10 pg editorial and cover of Dark Beauty Magazine done in 30 frames on film & polaroid ONLY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UZuSFPkKM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UZuSFPkKM)

Leaf Aptus 22

Cons
- The Base ISO of 25 (Thats a killer!! with the size of the sensor you need a Fstop of 11-22 to get good detail, most of my beauty shoots their ears where already out of focus @ F 11, crazy!!)
- The screen is big, but the glare under the sun is impossible!!, I learned to relay on the Histogram (for the first time) with this camera back, it does not matter if it looks all dark or all blown out under the sun light, if the histogram shows its good, then its good. The histogram also shows how much is underexposed and overexposed so that was good.
- I guess it was normal, but didn't like that the FireWire port was under the battery, you have to take the battery off to put the firewire, and if you want to change any settings on the camera, like the SOUND!!, you have to unplug the FireWire, put your battery on, wait 15 seconds for it to turn on, navigate through the menus and turn the sound off, and then turn the back off, disconnect the battery and connect to firewire again and wait another 15 seconds to boot. (_-_) #!!
- 15 Seconds boot time

Pros
- Not huge files that you will most likely need to size down for any normal print. I really don't need to handle 80Mpx to print in a 8.5x11 magazine.
- Nice big sensor (some go all with Mpx, there is a cellphone now that shoots 41mpx, of course sensor size counts so the bigger the better, it uses a lot more space of my RZ67 Pro II, the Phase Ones usually feel really horrible cropped into the ViewFinder)
- Skin Tones, just wow out of the Raw file.
- Histogram feature is super helpful, also 1:1 zoom (a bit slow though)

Hope it helps someone. I know I would have liked to read something like this while I was starting.

Ryu  8)

(PS, I'm sure I made many grammatical and orthographic mistakes, please forgive me since English is my 3rd Language, not looking for lessons)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: HarperPhotos on September 23, 2012, 01:18:14 am
Hi Ryu,

Good read and I’m pleased you have found the camera system which suits your personal tastes.

As a Mamiya RZ user since 1988 and Leaf Aptus owner for over 7 years I agree with you about skin tones. But I also am a Nikon user and the results I get concerning skin tones I believe can be as good as the Leaf.

I hope you don’t mind but I have taken the liberty to make quick and tiny adjustment to one of your Nikon images to how I think the skin tone could look.

I look forward to your thoughts.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 01:57:48 am
No I don't mind, thank you so much for taking the time to show me a better result.
Maybe the tones where off on the green side a bit.
But still I see the specular highlights of the Nikon disappear and change tones on the skins. While in the leaf still keeps a lot of the natural more even skin tone.
On the Nikon I usually saw redish or yellowish patches on skin, and I feel with the Aptus is much more even.
Maybe is just me. But I did notice a huge change in my retouching workflow.
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: FredBGG on September 23, 2012, 05:00:19 am
I find it interesting that the only image that really stands out for it's natural an cinematic look is the one taken with Portra.

Also I don't see how one can make skin tone judgments on images with significant amounts of makeup.

There will be more differences in the images that are from different shoots that come from the makeup.

At these high quality levels one has to look at images that are of subjects with real skin, not makeup.

Even then the skin tones of a model will vary over the course of a month.

Out of curiosity what lenses did you use on the Nikon and what lenses on the others?

Lenses can make quite a difference.
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: FredBGG on September 23, 2012, 05:30:20 am
I think you should take a look at the D800 for image quality. While I had tested several Nikion
cameras I did not feel either compelled to get one as I had several Canons or did I feel that they could
replace my MF cameras.

The D800 sensor was a different story.

Here are a couple of graphs that illustrate the differences.

First color sensitivity:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8452/8014793347_0bbdeeb9b5_b.jpg)

As you can see here the Leaf has an advantage over the d700 at low ISO.
It's quite clear and confirms what you may be seeing.
However it is also clear that the d800 has an advantage over both the D700 and Leaf.

The difference is even more dramatic if we look at dynamic range.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8452/8014793347_0bbdeeb9b5_b.jpg)

Again we see that the leaf has a slight advantage over the d700. Again confirming what you are seeing.
Again it is very clear that the D800 has a large advantage over the leaf and d700.

Now all that said I think it's important to say that the Leaf Aptus 22 and Leaf Aptus 75s are
great backs and at their time were quite something and still fine tools to use today, but the
whole skin tone supremacy thing is a thing of the past.

There is still a color advantage with MFD if you go with the IQ180, but is it only the case if you can accept very low ISO
performance that is lower that the rated settings. You will still get better shadow detail with a D800.


Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 06:08:03 am
No makeup? Hahaha are you serious now? Not for the work I do. Maybe if I was in medical field or something.
I was a faithful Nikon user, I owned and rented their best lenses for the type of work I do. I can assure you that.
On the last photo that I posted, the girl on the bikini. I was in Lake Tahoe, NV and there was a guy with a Nikon D800E with some serious glass. He set up faster than I did, yes. He shoot much much more frames than I did, yes. So while I was booting my MacBookPro to tether shoot and giving the iPad to the client with Capture Pilot on it (I was shooting for the Bikini line). My photographer college was warming those models up. I even got to shoot his camera a bit. And i admit i do like the preview screen but that was about it. The raw files did not impress me at all, back at the Hotel we were staying we compared files. Basically a D700 with oversized files. I like the chart you posted, but the image feeling of a larger than 35mm sensor just makes any image that much more unique. Specially in this days that any average Joe carries one Nikon or Canon just like the rest.
I even rent it from BorrowLenses Headquarters in California, I don't know. Don't really like the 35mm format no more. I have a nice fatty Rz67 Pro II on a pelican that looks evil. Not to mention a custom machined viewfinder with exotic leather and working on the double grip now. (yup I'm pulling a MK now).

I'm actually interested to know what MF systems you own and I see your work. If you don't mind.
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: bohngy on September 23, 2012, 06:50:17 am
I too have had a similar problem, really wanting faithful, neutral colour reproduction without the preclusive ISO25 sensitivities of the "magic" aptus 22 sensor. My P25 has wonderful dynamic range, but not always the best skintones. Consequently, I still shoot the majority of my portraiture on Kodak 160NC but my film stocks are dwindling.  :o

Would anyone care to enlighten me on their colour correction workflow for magic skintones out of a Nikon? I've always considered the skintones a little too saturated and plastic looking. Something a simple desaturation in PS won't correct.

Simon, what corrections did you make to Ryu's files?
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: FredBGG on September 23, 2012, 06:57:28 am
No makeup? Hahaha are you serious now? Not for the work I do. Maybe if I was in medical field or something.
........

I'm actually interested to know what MF systems you own and I see your work. If you don't mind.

First of all my point is that you cannot make conclusions about skin tones, especially comparisons from different shoots, when significant amounts of makup
are involved. The variables you will have in the makeup will be far more significant that those of high end cameras, especially comparing a P40 to a Leaf 22

I know a thing or two about makeup too. I have shot with some of the best makeup artists in the world including the Art Director of Eyves Saint Laurant makeup.

I have shot fashion and beauty for many years and after a break to do other things I now photograph mainly celebrity portraits (fashion and beauty with them too).
I can assure you that working with skin tones is quite a challenge working with celebrities compared to 17 year old models ;)
Subjects I have shot include... Lady Gaga, Kristen Stewart, Pink, supermodels Amber Valletta, Yasmeen Ghuri Ghauri,
I've been published in Vogue, Donna, Cosmo, Harpers, Elle, L'Officiel ... Italian, French and German...

As far as MF cameras go.... Mt most important work is shot on medium format. 6x8 Fuji gx680 and on film.
I have owned many MF systems.
Pentax 645
Mamiya RZ67
Hasselblad V and H
Fuji GX680
Rollie
Contax 645
Phase One AF and DF with Phase One p25+ (back also used on GX680). Like you I find 22mp is plenty.
I have also rented other MFD gear.

I also shoot large formats too including 8x10 and have shot beauty commercially with 8x10, both polaroid and film. Clients include Wella, L'Oreal.
I have been working with post production computers from times when a high end scan would be on tow reels or tape :o
I also use color grading facilities for motion picture that are suites that run at $1,200 an hour.

I find it funny that whenever someone brings up the fact that high end 35mm is as good as/equivanlent/or alsmost as good as MF
someone has to say..... "So what MF gear di you own?"

Don't get me wrong. I love medium format, I just find that MFD is not really that large of a MF to really see that MF look.
The difference between a D800 and a MF camera is just not than significant when used with the very best lenses.
How the cameras are used makes a difference too. You said it yourself that you spray and pray when you shoot 35mm.
You can also shoot with the same care you take with MFD... just take your time. However you will have an advantage with 35mm. If something magic happens like just the right gust of wind in the hair ... you can shoot off a fast sequence when needed.

As for my work here are a few images just to give you an idea of why I like larger medium format and film.

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5180/5458121808_279291c8e8_b.jpg)

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5250/5356464560_f46a54d63a_b.jpg)

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5299/5417854016_f1a10a64ae_b.jpg)

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5297/5417246191_cf601ffe23_z.jpg)

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5230/5862579358_ddacd064da_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 07:27:38 am
You forgot to mention you shoot Iggy Pop and Die Antwoord. Wow breath taking work you have. I have seen your work before and even sent you a Facebook friend request (just re-sent it now)

What you say about the no makeup makes sense. I wish I could have all the equipment and time to do a real comparation, same model, same lighting and the best lenses of different camera setups. All in all is just my very simple and little experience. I am glad to know that you agree that 22mpx is enough. And much more respect for still shooting film.

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain.

Kudos!

Ryu 8)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: FredBGG on September 23, 2012, 07:41:22 am
It's good to see someone like you that has been doing this for not so long doing so well.
You work shows a maturity that would lead me to think you had been working for more years.

I hope you don't mind me linking to a few images of yours, .... these are very very nice...

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2653/5846167537_c4f5eb4c87_b.jpg)

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2647/5846701288_079cd7e742_b.jpg)

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3077/4561637174_12def4037c_b.jpg)

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5212/5389779363_6d928b9237_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: FredBGG on September 23, 2012, 07:50:57 am
You forgot to mention you shoot Iggy Pop and Die Antwoord.

Die Antword and Iggy were great shoots.... many other memorable ones.... Johnny Rotten, Kid Rock, Woopie Goldberg, Sting, Eminem, Cure, Tommy Chong,
Rodney Dangerfeld (actually his last portrait).

I'm working on a book ... a series of unpublished portraits... 250+ celebrity portraits from the A-list to Reality POP culture Icons.
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 07:58:09 am
You just blew my mind. Thank you sooo much for taking the time to see my humble work. I'm thrilled you even like some.
Like yourself I am not from California, I came here in 2008 with a D80 and no idea how to use studio light.
I have put my heart and soul into photography since then. And of course I feel there is sooo much more to learn.
Once I got to California Melissa Rowdell (author of fashionphotographyblog.com) saw my photos and invited me to her house in Hollywood Hills when she was still living there. She and her amazing husband David (who is an excellent retoucher) talk to me for a few hrs and give me many advice on shooting and retouching that I held dearly to my heart all this time. I have had the RZ67 ProII for less than 2 yrs, and just very recently finally got my own MFDB. I'm very exited on this journey. And much more with inspiration from amazing photographers Ieet along the way, including you.
Thank you so much again!

Do you hold a blog or some place I can follow your work? Can't wait to see your book.

Ryu 8)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: Pics2 on September 23, 2012, 09:16:22 am
Ryu, great read! Very useful info, thank you. You were lucky you could rent all these backs.
But, here we have two completely different experiences from two working professionals whose work I respect (one says Aptus 22 is all you need, the other says Q180 is barely satisfying). What can I say, I'm confused as always when it comes to DMF.  ???
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: TMARK on September 23, 2012, 02:17:03 pm
Die Antword and Iggy were great shoots.... many other memorable ones.... Johnny Rotten, Kid Rock, Woopie Goldberg, Sting, Eminem, Cure, Tommy Chong,
Rodney Dangerfeld (actually his last portrait).

I'm working on a book ... a series of unpublished portraits... 250+ celebrity portraits from the A-list to Reality POP culture Icons.

Yolandi and Ninja are real professionals, and amazingly talented creatives.  I like your shots Fred! 
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: TMARK on September 23, 2012, 02:23:51 pm
Now I understand why you are down on the dslrs.  You shoot beauty and beauty retouching is an art in itself.  I used to shoot beauty for MAC, Aveda, Nars in the way back.  The transition to digital was difficult.  Film could handle the harsh tonal transitions across a face, especially 4x5 and 8x10.  The dslrs always blew a channel.  Canons blew the red channel and resulted in banding.  The Aptus 22 (mostly) solved the problem, but I started lighting differently for digital, adding contrast in post rather than in camera. 

Pascal at Box could take almost any file, from any camera, and make them look close to identical.  Skills that were beyond me.

Nice work, by the way.  Keep it up and remember, present a neutral face online.

T
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: EricWHiss on September 23, 2012, 03:13:48 pm
Fred,
I think I have figured out why the DXO color sensitivity charts don't match up to my experience with skin tones or other subjects like flowers that have subtle changes in color hue/tone that I think MFDB do a better job with.   DXO probably tests color with a big chart with squares on it of different color and then checks to see how well the camera did. That's all fine with big patches, but how about colors that change very small amounts from one pixel to the next?  This is where I think the disconnect starts.  DXO says its great, better even, but that's in a test lab with big fat color squares not real world where there are so many little color changes.  Skin has so much subtle color change in even small regions.  This is where I think MFDB does a better job and you can see it in comparison images - even if DXO says it shouldn't.   Who knows?  Maybe film even does better than anything when you look in close?   I am sure people can make the d800 skin look natural in post but all one can do is correct the color and make it smoother, and more even but not bring back detail.  For beauty I guess this is the right path anyhow - finishing the job that the makeup artist started, but maybe not so great for other types of photowork?
Eric


Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: EricWHiss on September 23, 2012, 03:23:53 pm
Ryu,
Thanks for posting all the images and your experiences. As others have said, nice work!
Eric

ps. I like the porta 160 ... 
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 04:03:45 pm
Ryu, great read! Very useful info, thank you. You were lucky you could rent all these backs.
But, here we have two completely different experiences from two working professionals whose work I respect (one says Aptus 22 is all you need, the other says Q180 is barely satisfying). What can I say, I'm confused as always when it comes to DMF.  ???

Thank you very much Pics2!
I really didn't rent the backs, two of my clients rent them for me to shoot.
One in India (the P45) and one in Japan (P45+), the P40 was from a friend.
Taking in count the tremendous amount you can get with film, you might consider that the IQ180 is barely satisfying.
But if you do prints for normal size magazines and publications, then the file-size from the Aptus 22 is enough.
And If you have the option to shoot FILM then you would be happy with the Aptus 22, and use film for big jobs. (or a Large Format film).
Just my thought.

Ryu 8)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 04:10:52 pm
Now I understand why you are down on the dslrs.  You shoot beauty and beauty retouching is an art in itself.  I used to shoot beauty for MAC, Aveda, Nars in the way back.  The transition to digital was difficult.  Film could handle the harsh tonal transitions across a face, especially 4x5 and 8x10.  The dslrs always blew a channel.  Canons blew the red channel and resulted in banding.  The Aptus 22 (mostly) solved the problem, but I started lighting differently for digital, adding contrast in post rather than in camera. 

Pascal at Box could take almost any file, from any camera, and make them look close to identical.  Skills that were beyond me.

Nice work, by the way.  Keep it up and remember, present a neutral face online.

T

Thank you so much TMARK!
You used to shoot for MAC, Aveda, Nars? Would you care to share some of this images? I would love to see your work, if you don't mind.
Yeah I think thats what I couldn't bare, the "channel banding"?, I did got to use a few different lights, from Elinchrome to AlienBees to Profoto with their respective BeautyDishes. With diffuser sock, with 40˚ grid or not. Couldn't get what I saw with the Aptus on the first shoot.

Pascal @ Box?

Present a neutral face online? (I'm sorry English is my 3rd language, what does this means?)

Thank you kindly

Ryu 8)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: HarperPhotos on September 23, 2012, 04:12:05 pm
Hi Bohngy,

Selective Colour
Cyan –30
Magenta +15
Black –30
Relative
Pushed the Curves from the centre
Curves Linar Contrast
Imogenomic Portraiture Default.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 04:25:18 pm
Ryu,
Thanks for posting all the images and your experiences. As others have said, nice work!
Eric
ps. I like the porta 160 ... 

Thank you so much EricWHiss!

You like the Portra because of the landscape? Here are a few more from that pirate shoot.

(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6229/6253853335_391b20d7df_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6221/6254246602_1d8cb35bff_b.jpg)

And if you like landscapes, check this shoot I did in a temple in Japan with Fujicolor

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7146/6550058483_a296406bbf_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7028/6548692057_defa5df051_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7143/6548637187_f09cf2bfb8_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7032/6550061163_9d7591bc5f_z.jpg)

I hope you enjoy them.

Ryu 8)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 04:32:33 pm
Hi Bohngy,

Selective Colour
Cyan –30
Magenta +15
Black –30
Relative
Pushed the Curves from the centre
Curves Linar Contrast
Imogenomic Portraiture Default.

Cheers

Simon

Bohngy? What was this about Simon?
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: Chairman Bill on September 23, 2012, 05:24:43 pm
What's all this about one camera being better than another; I thought it was the photographer, not the equipment  ;)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 05:48:17 pm
What's all this about one camera being better than another; I thought it was the photographer, not the equipment  ;)

You are joking right?
This are two different concepts.
The Photographer's job is to be involved in every aspect of his shoot, (unless you are a journalist, which I'm not and know nothing about)
Each of the lights, reflections, shadows, lens angles and distortion, the field depth, the subject, hair, makeup, clothing, posing, background, etc, etc. And of course, the choice of the medium that feels more adequate for the specific jobs.
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: Anders_HK on September 23, 2012, 05:49:49 pm
@ Ryu & @ Fred,

Really really nice work posted by both of you in above.  :)

Also as an advanced amateur colors are to me very important. Yet this does not mere relate to skin tones. I gave up on Nikon after the D200, which I unlike many at time thought was crap in part due to colors. I loved Velvia 50 for landscapes and one reason was the pleasing colors. That is precise what I feel it is about, pleasing colors and not mere skin tones, already as a departure point when starting off to work in post on RAW.

While I did not shoot Aptus 22 my prior back was Aptus 65 and I believe they are not far apart in colors. Leaf do tend to be more film like than P1 and the files feel more graphic (in part due to the Dalsa sensors). Colors in Aptus 65 were really good for portraiture but there was something lagging to my eye for landscapes, both in colors and in enabling the recreation of light in the image. Updating to an 80MP Leaf back a bit over a year ago, I experience it over the Aptus 65 to have significant improved colors. They are more correct as departure point but also have to my eye very pleasing rendering. It made me finally drop shooting film and Velvia 50. I am not saying my current Leaf files are like Velvia, yet somehow they bring me the same sensation and satisfaction in photography. The 80MP Leaf has same Dalsa sensor as IQ180 but different implementation by Leaf. From what I was told the color filters on the sensor are improved compared to prior Leafs. Compared to Aptus 65 the 80MP Leaf have more colors, there are finer steps in gradation of tones of colors, a broader DR, and improved shadows. Important I now find that I can very well recreate a sensation of light in the images, by creating a transition into highlights and a shoulder similar to "film" by using curves. The more pixels help in all these, similar to on a 6x7 or larger MF film file, but I also attempt to work the files a tad on terms of a painter to create a sensation of color and light for the eye and leading the eye in an image. Capture One Pro is all I use. Attached are a couple of sample images shot using the 80MP Leaf. For skin tones, adjusting/correcting skin tones and select other color range edits, the color editor in Capture One Pro is downright superb and helps correct with simplicity.

Regarding a camera itself, it is a tool and if it is a good tool it lends us to capture and make good images. The D800 is perhaps the best image quality DSLR so far but by its nature of a DSLR invites a different approach than a medium format camera. I do rather relate to what Ryu writes of his RZ, since a camera is tad as a painters brush or as the violin of a master violinist. It is a thrill using a tool that feels intended for a master because it pushes to improve and to create in a different manner. Mine is Rolleiflex Hy6 with WLF and it aid me in visualize an image when shooting, and lends to achieve better images in portraiture than I have ever prior made. Importantly it lends to focus on the image and good capture.

Something more about D800 vs. the Leaf, the Aptus 75 (and current 33MP Leaf) is an older sensor and thus does not feel complete fair in comparison to D800. Obvious also Leaf has improved on sensors and technology. Leaf is also not mass produced same way as a DSLR and should thus have more precise tuned colors than a DSLR. The DR of D800 may appear to be better than it is because of the noise reduction in camera. In that context it is literally amazing how much you can push around a Leaf 80MP file and retrieve shadows in post! My sample file with the window had a very broad DR and was one shot.


Best regards,
Anders

P.S. @ Fred, b.t.w. both your graphs in above appear to be the same. I think you left out the DR comparison.
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: HarperPhotos on September 23, 2012, 07:48:37 pm
Hi Ryu,

These where the adjustments I did to your Nikon image.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: EricWHiss on September 23, 2012, 08:13:46 pm
I keep having a hard time getting the skin tones right... hmm... but I don't think it has anything to do with the camera!  :D

Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: EricWHiss on September 23, 2012, 08:20:25 pm
Thank you so much EricWHiss!

You like the Portra because of the landscape? Here are a few more from that pirate shoot.

I hope you enjoy them.

Ryu 8)

Ryu,
Yes, I did thanks for the extra images.   I didn't mean to say I don't like the Aptus / RZ files too.   I shoot with an Aptus back (AFi-ii 12) and also an RZ with mostly film.  I like film and still shoot a lot of it. Mostly black and white, though. 
Eric
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 09:10:36 pm
I keep having a hard time getting the skin tones right... hmm... but I don't think it has anything to do with the camera!  :D

Was the wallpaper white on that image? Cuz it looks a bit on the warm side. That would saturate red her skin tones as you can see in her nails and non painted body parts. Also her specular highlights lost all the tones, is a blown out colorless white. That on a face kills me. I like to see the skin color and not a blown out white on forehead or nose, you know? What camera was that you use for that photograph? Maybe you lost the tones on the retouching workflow?

Ryu 8)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: EricWHiss on September 23, 2012, 09:21:13 pm
No the paper was colored - forget the name but maybe "Bone." but its got a warm yellow - definitely not white.    I'm was making a joke ...  I really wasn't asking for help with colors.  This was from an art project of mine. She has a metalic skin coating....
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 09:23:56 pm
Ryu,
Yes, I did thanks for the extra images.   I didn't mean to say I don't like the Aptus / RZ files too.   I shoot with an Aptus back (AFi-ii 12) and also an RZ with mostly film.  I like film and still shoot a lot of it. Mostly black and white, though. 
Eric


I love your black and whites Eric! Specially the body-scapes. I been meaning to shoot body-scapes but I haven't had the chance.
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 09:25:29 pm
No the paper was colored - forget the name bone.  I'm was making a joke ...  I don't need any help with colors.  This was from an art project of mine. She has a metalic skin coating....


I kinda was thinking it was a joke =D I didn't mean to offer help with the tones. Just speculating what happened to it.
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: EricWHiss on September 23, 2012, 09:32:23 pm
Thanks Ryu!




Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 09:33:52 pm
@Anders_HK
You write so well. And you have a Credo 80Mpx wow, I'm a total jelly right now. I haven't even seen one of those in person. :)
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: RyuuzakiJulio on September 23, 2012, 09:36:19 pm
Hi Ryu,

These where the adjustments I did to your Nikon image.

Cheers

Simon

I kinda was wondering if you passed though portraiture. I havent used that plugin since I got the back. But it did saved me time on the D700. But trying to keep the original info I tend to avoid it.
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: Anders_HK on September 23, 2012, 11:09:47 pm
@Anders_HK
You write so well. And you have a Credo 80Mpx wow, I'm a total jelly right now. I haven't even seen one of those in person. :)

It is AFi-II 12, same internals and display as Aptus-II 12 but rotating sensor and tilt display in different case especially for Hy6 camera. Dont be jelly, I should because you do photography fun as profession!!!  ;D You are also very good at it which I much respect.

Best regards
Anders
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: FredBGG on September 24, 2012, 12:22:48 am
I think you should take a look at the D800 for image quality. While I had tested several Nikion
cameras I did not feel either compelled to get one as I had several Canons or did I feel that they could
replace my MF cameras.

The D800 sensor was a different story.

Here are a couple of graphs that illustrate the differences.

First color sensitivity:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8452/8014793347_0bbdeeb9b5_b.jpg)

As you can see here the Leaf has an advantage over the d700 at low ISO.
It's quite clear and confirms what you may be seeing.
However it is also clear that the d800 has an advantage over both the D700 and Leaf.

The difference is even more dramatic if we look at dynamic range.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8437/8014803634_492fbce8d4_b.jpg)

Again we see that the leaf has a slight advantage over the d700. Again confirming what you are seeing.
Again it is very clear that the D800 has a large advantage over the leaf and d700.

Now all that said I think it's important to say that the Leaf Aptus 22 and Leaf Aptus 75s are
great backs and at their time were quite something and still fine tools to use today, but the
whole skin tone supremacy thing is a thing of the past.

There is still a color advantage with MFD if you go with the IQ180, but is it only the case if you can accept very low ISO
performance that is lower that the rated settings. You will still get better shadow detail with a D800.



Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: EricWHiss on September 24, 2012, 02:39:23 am
I'm not so sure you can trust the DXO data for very small or subtle color changes - though it may be accurate if one shoots color charts like they did in their testing its probably not correct for skin.  Let me see if i can share crops of skin from my studio tests to show you what i am seeing.     I've also done my own tests on DR between d800 and aptus 12 using Imatest and aptus 12 has a half stop more DR. 
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: bohngy on September 24, 2012, 03:44:38 am
y'see what I would like to know is this: Is there a global colour correction that can be consistently performed in post to gain consistently good skin tones (with skintones being the primary focus) with a DSLR? What are the RGB numbers or relative balance that give the tones that look so pleasing and organic?

I know it's not as simple as writing an action, but I've never known what RGB numbers I should be aiming for. It should be theoretically possible to get every tone out of any digital camera... assuming it's within gamut!
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: UlfKrentz on September 24, 2012, 03:55:45 am
@Anders_HK
You write so well. And you have a Credo 80Mpx wow, I'm a total jelly right now. I haven't even seen one of those in person. :)

Ryu,

no need to be jelly :-) the AII-12 will probably be too slow for you shooting fashion. You may look after a 75S / AII-7 or a AII-10 tough. They are all faster than the 22 and I find the extra resolution a huge plus. And yes, I agree and found the Aptus series digital backs have the most pleasing skin tones (although covered with makeup).

Cheers

Ulf
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: EricWHiss on September 24, 2012, 04:23:03 am
That's true.  The Aptus 12 is pretty slow (The Hy6 itself can do like 3 or 4 frames a second so its just the back).  It is faster than my D4-4800 w/s pack recycle though!  ;)  actually maybe faster than the d4-1200 w/s too - and I've never hit the buffer.   
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: Anders_HK on September 24, 2012, 05:08:25 am
It is a trade off on what is most important; image quality or speed? AII 12 has notably higher image quality than AII10, the AII10 is per when I looked at file comparison incremental improvement of the Aptus 65. Aptus 65/75 to AII12 is more significant step up in image quality. Critical is also upgrade pricing between A10 and A12. It is worthwhile to compare both.

The big question: if the current tool works well, why spend extra money??? A new tool does not necessary make any of us a better photographer. It is using a tool we feel comfortable with and command that makes a difference.
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: Chairman Bill on September 24, 2012, 05:15:41 am
You are joking right?

Clearly not, that's why I put a winking emoticon* after my comment.



* there not being a 'tongue-in-cheek' version available
Title: Re: Skintones: Aptus 22 / D700 / Film Kodak - Fuji / (P40+) (P45) (P45+)
Post by: UlfKrentz on September 24, 2012, 05:43:19 am
It is a trade off on what is most important; image quality or speed? AII 12 has notably higher image quality than AII10, the AII10 is per when I looked at file comparison incremental improvement of the Aptus 65. Aptus 65/75 to AII12 is more significant step up in image quality. Critical is also upgrade pricing between A10 and A12. It is worthwhile to compare both.

The big question: if the current tool works well, why spend extra money??? A new tool does not necessary make any of us a better photographer. It is using a tool we feel comfortable with and command that makes a difference.

Well we´re not exactly talking about speed, just to get a rhythm in a shooting. Colorwise I noticed a significant change between the 75S and the AII-10 files, but we still use both backs with good results. I did not look into the AII-12 because of the frame rate, won´t work for us. Also the file size and storage needs is more than enough now. Is there really a big difference in color to the Aptus 10? I always thought it would be negligible.

Cheers

Ulf