Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: mac_paolo on September 11, 2012, 10:04:29 am
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Today I made the usual dual illuminant camera profiles I make for each new model I test.
I find them to be much more accurate than Adobe Standard.
Both dual illuminant, the first has been made from ISO 125 shots and the second from ISO 3200 shots.
RX100 DNG Profile (http://cl.ly/302W3n1U1J3y)
RX100 DNG Profile Hi-ISO (http://cl.ly/20441P1M323X)
Feel free to test them and please let me know what do you think about. :)
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5 downloads but no replies.
What do you think about them? :)
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and what was the procedure for you to find them more "accurate" ? a matter of your personal subjective taste or you actually measured (and how ?) something (using a shot with a totally different target, from another manufacturer for example) ?
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5 downloads but no replies.
What do you think about them? :)
I may give them a try ... but I have been very pleased with the Adobe Standard profile in LR.
What is your big beef with that profile that lead you to create your own?
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I've also made a profile (with Adobe dedicated software) and the colors are really better than the Adobe standard.
Thierry
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Thanks for sharing. Have you made any Canon profiles? 5D Mark III?
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I've also made a profile (with Adobe dedicated software) and the colors are really better than the Adobe standard.
Oh dear, looks like another chore to do this weekend. :)
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and what was the procedure for you to find them more "accurate" ? a matter of your personal subjective taste or you actually measured (and how ?) something (using a shot with a totally different target, from another manufacturer for example) ?
You know, high end display just profiled, good illumination. Colorchecker next to me.
Adobe standard: colors are similar to the ones represented on the CC.
Custom profile: colors match perfectly.
I then open a number of real world photos. Switching from one profile to the other the difference is substantial and, comparing them on Lightroom with no hints on the screen, I end to always guess which one has the most accurate colors, and that's the custom profiled.
The flash tone changes dramatically.
I didn't use fancy instruments, just made very precise exposure for both the 2850 light (which was between 2750-2800K) and the D65 light (which was around 6000K).
I then used DNG PE, not the Xrite utility, as I found several times that the latter produces unnatural saturated tones. Adobe's app doesn't show that issue.
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which always brings the question about Adobe... I am yet to find/see a posting (here and many other forums) when somebody creates a profile and claimes that it is worse (or no better) than Adobe's standard for a regular daylight (let us skip exotic illuminations here)... so is it something utterly wrong w/ how Adobe profiles cameras ::) ? and I mean that I read this for all cameras ? every single Joe takes a consumer level target, takes a shot (or two) and voila - not only colors are more subjectively pleasant to this person, but they are claimed to be more precise in terms of the measurements 8) ... I wish to hear comments from the horse's mouth or at least people like Schewe... how come that Adobe gives us such a waste in the form of the standard profiles 8) something is not right.
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which always brings the question about Adobe... I am yet to find/see a posting (here and many other forums) when somebody creates a profile and claimes that it is worse (or no better) than Adobe's standard for a regular daylight (let us skip exotic illuminations here)... so is it something utterly wrong w/ how Adobe profiles cameras ::) ? and I mean that I read this for all cameras ? every single Joe takes a consumer level target, takes a shot (or two) and voila - not only colors are more subjectively pleasant to this person, but they are claimed to be more precise in terms of the measurements 8) ... I wish to hear comments from the horse's mouth or at least people like Schewe... how come that Adobe gives us such a waste in the form of the standard profiles 8) something is not right.
All sensors are differents, so, yes you have to do your own profile.
Thierry
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which always brings the question about Adobe... I am yet to find/see a posting (here and many other forums) when somebody creates a profile and claimes that it is worse (or no better) than Adobe's standard for a regular daylight (let us skip exotic illuminations here)... so is it something utterly wrong w/ how Adobe profiles cameras ::) ? and I mean that I read this for all cameras ? every single Joe takes a consumer level target, takes a shot (or two) and voila - not only colors are more subjectively pleasant to this person, but they are claimed to be more precise in terms of the measurements 8) ... I wish to hear comments from the horse's mouth or at least people like Schewe... how come that Adobe gives us such a waste in the form of the standard profiles 8) something is not right.
You seem to be surprised, but I'm not. Adobe Standard means what it is. It doesn't mean Adobe Calibrated nor Adobe Exact Colors.
I want to start from a calibrated point for each and every camera I own, so I make profiles via DNG PE.
I'd be happy to purchase better color targets, but the software only supports CC24. My tools are consumer grade when I'm forced to do that. I'm not Joe and I do a lot more than a single shot to achieve a result, trust me ;)
Beside that every sensor is slightly different from the others, so you may (should, IMHO) profile it.
Everything is right for those who understand what's going on under the hood. :)
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All sensors are differents, so, yes you have to do your own profile.
Thierry
certainly they are different and lenses too, and consumer level targets are too... so why do you think that your unmeasured target vs some numbers stored in Adobe software for those patches does not make a bigger difference vs difference in your camera/lenses... hence comes the question - did you really measure that your profile is indeed more precise ? I was advised to make a shot of 2 targets (different ones, not 2 colorcheckers) at once, build profile using one target (remember - we have 2 targets in one shot), convert the raw using that profile and Adobe Standard and then compare numbers for patches off the 2nd target using babelcolor patchtool... now that is a test, isn't it 8) ?
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You seem to be surprised, but I'm not. Adobe Standard means what it is. It doesn't mean Adobe Calibrated nor Adobe Exact Colors.
and what is yours vs Adobe Standard ?
I want to start from a calibrated point for each and every camera I own, so I make profiles via DNG PE.
that is a good idea - I question implementation though for a normal light unlike for some unusual one
I'd be happy to purchase better color targets, but the software only supports CC24. My tools are consumer grade when I'm forced to do that. I'm not Joe and I do a lot more than a single shot to achieve a result, trust me ;)
so what you did exactly to achieve a result... may be you can share 2 raw files used to create a profile to illustrate the source ? I mean if you share the profile then raw files are not a bigger secret, are they ? then we can see how the target was really illuminated, shall we ?
Beside that every sensor is slightly different from the others, so you may (should, IMHO) profile it.
targets are different too (manufacturing is not precise) and Adobe tools only have some average numbers that you can't replace w/ your own measurements.
Everything is right for those who understand what's going on under the hood. :)
do you ? you said you do not have an individually calibrated target neither you run any real test (other then you were pleased subjectively by what you see - people tend to like their work even if it is actually worse - hence something to exclude that subjective factor is necessary) and yet you claim that you understand what is going under the hood 8) ... I also doubt that your light and how target was illuminated were better than Adobe does... and if that is not the case then again - something really wrong in Adobe Labs.
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deejjjaaaa, you keep being rude without a reason.
You really should get some fresh air and realize that I'm only trying to help people by giving away something without asking anything back. I like to.
My profiles have been downloaded 20 times so far. Not a single thank you, but that's fine, really.
Trying to sum up your (meaningless?) interrogation, here's the deal.
Don't keep pushing that "you-think-you-know-more-than-Adobe-so-prove-it". It's quite puerile.
What you may have read too fast is the first line of my previous post. Adobe standard doesn't mean perfect colors as for the vast majority of users, right color doesn't mean best color. I 100% agree with that.
Photography is art before math.
Camera Raw itself was created to standardize the look&feel of the different makers and to better manage the colors that some camera manufacturers seemed to badly represent. Very badly.
I still haven't heard from a single Adobe employee that Adobe Standard is the most accurate profile color wise. Again, maybe it really shouldn't.
There are however a number of photographers (I'm one of them, the worst of them if you like) that like to profile their cameras to still start from a common base, but a different one. Not a pleasant compromise but a standard one. Standard doesn't mean perfect. CC24 is as standard as I need it to be.
As you know (do you?), custom DNG profiles are made based on existing ones. In this case "Adobe Standard". The 18 color patches are just a way to manipulate Adobe's effort to better match a specific sensor working with sort of gradients for a differential equation (math terms may be wrong, I'm trying to find the bast translation).
I may well upload all the DNG files I used to make the profiles but, why? You'd see a CC24 covering almost 95% of the frame. You can't see the light. At most you'd see the white balance.
The 2850K light is tungsten bulbs and the 6500K is sun light. There's little to add. No secrets here.
If you're not interest in this matter you may well apologize for the rudeness and help with other threads. I don't have to persuade you at all costs, really.
Peace :)
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certainly they are different and lenses too, and consumer level targets are too... so why do you think that your unmeasured target vs some numbers stored in Adobe software for those patches does not make a bigger difference vs difference in your camera/lenses... hence comes the question - did you really measure that your profile is indeed more precise ? I was advised to make a shot of 2 targets (different ones, not 2 colorcheckers) at once, build profile using one target (remember - we have 2 targets in one shot), convert the raw using that profile and Adobe Standard and then compare numbers for patches off the 2nd target using babelcolor patchtool... now that is a test, isn't it 8) ?
My first (cheap) target was clearly bad.
That's why, I've invested in a professional target with special patches.
I've also checked the patches with my PrintFixPro and yes it's not perfect but enough to make good measurements.
So, after building the profile, I've done side by side comparison with "perfect software implemented target" and photo of the the target with the profile inside Photoshop, almost perfect match ;-)
Far better than Adobe Standard.
I've done 7 profiles and satisfied with all.
Note than Adobe Standard for Nikon D5100 is good, very few differences only with "home made" profile.
For Canon, it's very different !!!
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That's why, I've invested in a professional target with special patches.
I've also checked the patches with my PrintFixPro and yes it's not perfect but enough to make good measurements.
so you tried at least to measure the patches on your target with colorimeter... now, we are talking about Adobe .dcp profiles here (there are only so few COTS solutions to build such profiles... adobe's, xrite's, QP's, datacolor's - am I missing something ?) - so what was the software that you used to build those and how do you know the difference between your measurements and what hardcoded in that software for those patches... it is not like that software can accept a custom .cie file w/ your measurements of your own target, is it ? so how do you know whether it was "enough" or not ... I am genuinely interested
So, after building the profile, I've done side by side comparison with "perfect software implemented target" and photo of the the target with the profile inside Photoshop, almost perfect match ;-)
you need to use different target - because to use the same target which was used to build a profile is not exactly a test, is it ? and what was "perfect software implemented target" - was it something supplied w/ the product that you used to build a .dcp profile and was using the exact data that this software is using for patches ?
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I still haven't heard from a single Adobe employee that Adobe Standard is the most accurate profile color wise.
but you say that yours is more accurate than Adobe Standard, hence I am asking how do you know beyond your own subjective impression... if you like your profile better than Adobe's that is totally fine - but the claim was about being more accurate that Adobe's for a regular outdoor daylight, was it not... if it is - then my beef is with Adobe, because such claims fly around all the time and then you start to think, WTF is going on w/ camera's profiling in Adobe Labs... I mean how come that this product is supplied w/ such bad profiles (at least for many cameras) so that under a regular outdoor condition it is not a big effort to make it more precise ::)
As you know (do you?), custom DNG profiles are made based on existing ones. In this case "Adobe Standard".
"When using the Chart Wizard feature of DNG PE, the color matrices are taken from the choice of the Base Profile (ColorMatrix* and ForwardMatrix* DNG tags), and the color tables (HueSatMap1 and HueSatMap2 DNG tags) are replaced by the ones calculated by the Chart Wizard. If the Base Profile has a look table (LookTable DNG tag), it is removed.
Effectively, matrices are used to perform linear color correction, and the color tables are used to perform non-linear (usually targeted) color correction. Ideally a simple matrix would suffice, but for complex reasons they cannot map all colors perfectly." (c) Eric Chan...
but that does not answer the question about how precise are the corrections vs Adobe Standard for a regular outdoor daylight... I am not talking about corrections to achieve colors that more pleasant for your eyes (that is subjective and can't be argued), but more precise by numbers (using a different target to verify)...
I may well upload all the DNG files I used to make the profiles but, why? You'd see a CC24 covering almost 95% of the frame.
because I am curious to see the shots (raw files) that were used to achieve a more precise profile than Adobe's standard... I will study the shots and may be I can gain some extra knowledge... which is far better than just use a profile...
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dejjjaaaa, your argumentative and insulting posts add absolutely nothing of substance to this forum, I wish you would just to over to DRP to do your trolling. This is not that kind of forum.
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+1
And thanks Mac Paolo for taking the effort to make the profiles and share. Ignore the people with missing brain cells.
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+1
And thanks Mac Paolo for taking the effort to make the profiles and share. Ignore the people with missing brain cells.
You're more than welcome :)
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Hi Paolo,
I've tried your profiles and they are very close to mine ;)
Only 2 patches are different, 3 = blue sky is slightly lighter, and 9 = moderate red slightly darker than mine.
But in practical images, I see almost no differences.
Both profiles give more "saturated" colors than Adobe Standard.
Thierry
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so you tried at least to measure the patches on your target with colorimeter... now, we are talking about Adobe .dcp profiles here (there are only so few COTS solutions to build such profiles... adobe's, xrite's, QP's, datacolor's - am I missing something ?) - so what was the software that you used to build those and how do you know the difference between your measurements and what hardcoded in that software for those patches... it is not like that software can accept a custom .cie file w/ your measurements of your own target, is it ? so how do you know whether it was "enough" or not ... I am genuinely interested
you need to use different target - because to use the same target which was used to build a profile is not exactly a test, is it ? and what was "perfect software implemented target" - was it something supplied w/ the product that you used to build a .dcp profile and was using the exact data that this software is using for patches ?
I use Munsell X-Rite Colorchecker with Adobe software "DNG Profile Editor" to build profile from a dng file and use it in Lightroom 4.2 RC.
"perfect software implemented target" is a home made target done with sRGB values of the patches given by X-Rite.
You may freely download the "DNG Profile Editor" in Adobe Website ;) ;)
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Hi Paolo,
I've tried your profiles and they are very close to mine ;)
Only 2 patches are different, 3 = blue sky is slightly lighter, and 9 = moderate red slightly darker than mine.
But in practical images, I see almost no differences.
Both profiles give more "saturated" colors than Adobe Standard.
Thierry
Good, when similar cameras are close to be exactly the same is a good sign.
Some colors are "just" more saturated (or with different hue), but I definitely see great improvement in caucasian flesh tones.
Adobe standard is way too magenta while custom profile render natural skin color.
The only downside I found so far with my custom profiles is that, under very yellow lights (extremely low Kelvin) with problematic spectrum (not tungsten), some shadows on the skin become way too magenta. Only a tint adjustment towards green seems to resolve that.
Less saturated Adobe standard seems to be almost immune to this.
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I use Munsell X-Rite Colorchecker with Adobe software "DNG Profile Editor" to build profile from a dng file and use it in Lightroom 4.2 RC.
so you really do not know what is hardcoded there for patches :'(
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Good, when similar cameras are close to be exactly the same is a good sign.
Some colors are "just" more saturated (or with different hue), but I definitely see great improvement in caucasian flesh tones.
Adobe standard is way too magenta while custom profile render natural skin color.
The only downside I found so far with my custom profiles is that, under very yellow lights (extremely low Kelvin) with problematic spectrum (not tungsten), some shadows on the skin become way too magenta. Only a tint adjustment towards green seems to resolve that.
Less saturated Adobe standard seems to be almost immune to this.
I also have problems with some brown turning to magenta with mud in strong lighting conditions.
The only solution I've found is to decrease magenta saturation in "color selective sliders".
My (and also others) Canon S90 has yellow tendency in poor lighting conditions, so perhaps that the magenta tendency is a characteristic of the RX100 sensor !
Good Night ;)
Thierry
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The only solution I've found is to decrease magenta saturation in "color selective sliders".
Have you tried adding a bit of Kelvin to color temperature and move the tint a slightly bit on the green side.
Visually the difference is minimal but those magenta spikes usually disappear this way. :)
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thanks for posting these.
I just tried the ISO 125 profile and to my eye it is a big improvement over the standard Adobe profiles.
John
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I was planning on making a few with colorchecker for various environments. I don't really know about making profiles beyond that....are there better methods?
The cc has allowed me to equalize colors when cross brand shooting pretty well.
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I was planning on making a few with colorchecker for various environments. I don't really know about making profiles beyond that....are there better methods?
The cc has allowed me to equalize colors when cross brand shooting pretty well.
CC24 and QPcard, I'd say.
I own just the CC24 so I made the DNG profile with it and DNG Profile Editor.
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I don't own an RX-100 but I have been looking at some sample RAW files and the Camera Profiles that people here have made. I do own a Passport ColorChecker and make profiles for my Canon S-100 camera. Some comments:
If you are using a G-M color target and DNG Profile Editor to make profiles, you may be able to download the ColorChecker Passport software and use that as well, even if you don't have a Passport.
I am very happy with the color rendition I get with the ColorChecker software. However it doesn't seem to do anything at all for tonality. In my camera, there is no tone curve included in the created profile.
A free program called dcpTool is great for mixing, matching, and generally tweaking camera profiles. It is not easy to use, but worth the time it takes to learn.
http://dcptool.sourceforge.net/Introduction.html (http://dcptool.sourceforge.net/Introduction.html)
I use it to copy the tone curves from the Camera Standard and other profiles into my Passport CC profiles. It can be used for "cross processing" and other purposes as well.
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I have heard it said :) that the ACR/Lightroom color is not the best. I do wonder why that could be so given that Adobe's revenues certainly outrank jazz bands like Raw Developer or RPP which are ICC based ... Maybe the DNG model is not quite appropriate for Raw.
Hmm, usually we say GIGO, but this is more a case of crawl into a sewer and come out dirty, CISCOD to coin an acronym. ;D
Edmund
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How are you helping RX100 owners get better color from their images? If you are not, then there is no reason to post in this thread.
This isn't some sports forum where fans of one team hurl insults back and forth with fans of another team.