Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Radu Arama on August 30, 2012, 04:58:56 pm
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http://www.pentaximaging.com/about/press/283?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PhotoZoneIndustryNews+%28Photozone+Industry+News%29
Hopefully we will see similar price reduction in Europe as well.
Best regards,
Radu Arama
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Perhaps a 645DII in the works? Perhaps the D800 has slowed sales? I'm not sure this move will convince anyone to buy a 645D, who wouldn't have otherwise; it will certainly reduce the resale value of the camera however.
The price that should be reduced is that of the 25mm IMHO.
Tom
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Fully agree. More than half the price of body and back.
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Chances are that a new version or a second additional version is in the works. Full frame maybe.
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Hi Tom,
They try to put some difference between this model and the next one which will be "a quantum leap" and priced at 12999 USD. Besides the prices of used 645D will be dictated by the thousands of Japanese which will "upgrade" their 2 to 3 years old cameras in 2013 with the next model.
Best regards,
Radu
Perhaps a 645DII in the works? Perhaps the D800 has slowed sales? I'm not sure this move will convince anyone to buy a 645D, who wouldn't have otherwise; it will certainly reduce the resale value of the camera however.
The price that should be reduced is that of the 25mm IMHO.
Tom
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Exciting! Thanks for letting us know. Tom
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Hi Tom,
They try to put some difference between this model and the next one which will be "a quantum leap" and priced at 12999 USD. Besides the prices of used 645D will be dictated by the thousands of Japanese which will "upgrade" their 2 to 3 years old cameras in 2013 with the next model.
Best regards,
Radu
Radu:
Very interesting. I would assume a "quantum leap" to be near full frame, an advantage that 35mm cameras can never overcome. High ISO and live view would be nice as well, but not as significant to me and, I suspect, most users of the 645D.
Regards,
Tom
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It would be nice if Pentax would bring out some New Digital A. F. Lenses instead of a New Body. We have been waiting long enough.
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Hi Tom,
The tea leaves read at this moment that Pentax will keep the 6 micron pixel pitch and increase the size in the 48x36 mm region. The camera is rumored to be the first (or in the first row of a new class) to make real use of a 16bit RAW. I am more excited at the thought of much improved electronics inside the camera the original 645D was built using already "middle aged chips" so I expect a dramatic improvement in the general response.
Best regard,
Radu
Radu:
Very interesting. I would assume a "quantum leap" to be near full frame, an advantage that 35mm cameras can never overcome. High ISO and live view would be nice as well, but not as significant to me and, I suspect, most users of the 645D.
Regards,
Tom
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They seem to focus on very modern zooms and new lenses build from the ground instead of adapting older designs to digital era. The new ultra wide to wide zoom will be (as far as I know) a first in a modern MF system and probably will cost less that competition's 28 mm primes.
So, first will be the new 90/2.8 this year then in the first half of 2013 the new ultra wide zoom, then late in the 2013 or a bit later the replacement of the 45-85 and of the 80-160. After that I expect a few primes to be replaced with new designs.
Best regards,
Radu
It would be nice if Pentax would bring out some New Digital A. F. Lenses instead of a New Body. We have been waiting long enough.
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Thanks for the updates, Radu. All makes perfectly sense to me. The current 645D is great, but would benefit from an update. Hope the new 25mm DA fits the larger sensor of the new camera. I could live without the 90mm, but the new wide angle zoom would be great.
I am not sure about the remainder of the Pentax product line (K, Q, Ricoh, full-frame, etc.), but I am quite happy with their 645D strategy. :)
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Hi Tom,
The product specification for the DA 25 mm only says: "Developed specifically for the PENTAX 645 digital system" with no mention about maximum sensor size and I find very hard to believe that Pentax (if they indeed will increase the sensor area) launched a crippled lens only half a year before. On the other hand the 5K USD price could by justified easier if a possible 18K combo of 645D2 + 25 mm would provide the widest f.o.v. in MF world (using native lenses). The chatter over the 645D2 is not like Pentax wanted to improve the 645D but more on the line of "let's open up the MF world to new applications never possible before".
We will see.
Radu
Thanks for the updates, Radu. All makes perfectly sense to me. The current 645D is great, but would benefit from an update. Hope the new 25mm DA fits the larger sensor of the new camera. I could live without the 90mm, but the new wide angle zoom would be great.
I am not sure about the remainder of the Pentax product line (K, Q, Ricoh, full-frame, etc.), but I am quite happy with their 645D strategy. :)
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Hi Radu:
You certainly seem to have sources in Pentax! I’m glad to hear the pixel pitch will remain the same; most of the old lenses do quite well with the existing sensor, but might be challenged by smaller pixels. So the sensor will be about 20% larger ~ 50MP? I am happy with the existing electronics, maybe because I was primarily using film before the 645D and had no basis for expectations. Heck, auto focus is a novelty to me!
Looking forward to the wide angle zoom; like Lacunapratum, I don’t understand the urgent need for a 90mm.
Regards,
Tom
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Hi Tom,
I am a Pentax user for a lot of time and I like to think I know some patterns about how they think and act. Some things I know to be facts, others are just my speculations, Pentax was a very secretive (even too secretive for their own good) company during the Hoya ownership and seem even more so in the Ricoh era. But they (Ricoh) made no secret at all that they want to challenge the "big boys" pretty much the same they did in the copier business. And also they are ready to spend money to make money. Now about the 90 mm I fully agree that is a strange focal, neither here, nor there but beside the fact that Pentax was historically very good at making strange focal length lenses (some say they are just the honest ones in a world were every 47-53 mm design is billed as a "50 mm normal"). Remember the 77 mm Limited (for 135 format) where 77 was "the magical number for a portrait lens" and another big time mythical Pentax lens the 31/1.8 Limited.
So, that being said I have the feeling that Pentax wants to kill two birds with a stone with the 90 mm and make a very advanced design (in terms of elements/groups) which won't be extremely expensive nor big/heavy simply because it is not a fast 120 mm or a 135 mm to start with. I think, as in speculate that they want to make a lens which is very well corrected for any kind of aberration, with beautiful bokeh and with minimum focusing distance lower than classical 5 elements / 4 groups and 6 elements / 5 groups "old school" designs and versatile enough so it is not a portraiture only item.
About the 6 micron pitch I believe it is the very best for them to stick with it not only for the very important think you mentioned (puts less pressure on the lenses) but also because it is one of the most mature cell processes at Sony (my personal belief from more than a year a go was that Pentax will look for a Japanese supplier and a CMOS sensor for the next MF camera and I stick to that). Since Sony is the supplier for every single other sensor Pentax uses right now but the one in 645D I think it is safe to say they (Pentax) will go the same way. MF cameras as long as they have a prism and a mirror that moves will never be speed demons but a modern CMOS MF camera could make a 135 system obsolete for other kind of work very easy. Regardless of what other MF company chose to do I have a very deep feeling that Pentax will chose a very fast pace of evolution.
Best regards,
Radu
Hi Radu:
You certainly seem to have sources in Pentax! I’m glad to hear the pixel pitch will remain the same; most of the old lenses do quite well with the existing sensor, but might be challenged by smaller pixels. So the sensor will be about 20% larger ~ 50MP? I am happy with the existing electronics, maybe because I was primarily using film before the 645D and had no basis for expectations. Heck, auto focus is a novelty to me!
Looking forward to the wide angle zoom; like Lacunapratum, I don’t understand the urgent need for a 90mm.
Regards,
Tom
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Radu,
any knowledge of a Pentax 67D in the works ;)?
Man, a 50MP 6x7 sized chip that uses the same P67 lens mount, that'd be superb!!!
-Dan
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Hi Dan,
None whatsoever now and I can bet not in this decade at least! ;)
Radu
Radu,
any knowledge of a Pentax 67D in the works ;)?
Man, a 50MP 6x7 sized chip that uses the same P67 lens mount, that'd be superb!!!
-Dan
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The camera is rumored to be the first (or in the first row of a new class) to make real use of a 16bit RAW.
Never with a CCD. Even if Pentax is able to acquire a CMOS design to use, I don't see any way they can possibly make use of 16 bits in raw. This does not stop MFD manufacturers from trying to float such claims, coyly or otherwise.
Print DR of course goes higher, but this of course has nothing to do with raw.
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Hello,
Indeed your hands on experience mirrors a lot of other's but like I said above it is clear that Pentax used as much as possible of the shelf components in order to reduce the price. When 645D was announced the current dslr of Pentax was the K-7 with 14,6 Mp and from that size to 40 Mp there is a considerable distance.
About the second part I believe that Pentax forbid for some time the online sell of the 645D on the basis that such an investment should be well balanced beforehand and one should go and try such a camera from the three authorized dealers then make a hard decision. Such a buy and return policy is available in Europe only when you shop online and it is regulated very harsh against abuse from the part of consumers. There is no way you can buy something in a brick and mortar store and return it in most (in not all) of the E.U. We also have a mandatory 2 years warranty for most electronics.
Thank you for your input and best regards,
Radu
I have been using the 645D for at least a year. I shoot it very hard. My only digital camera. I use it for personal work and for jobs. It is a fine camera. Lenses can be purchased dirt cheap.
Viewfinder is incredible; build quality is great. Color fidelity maybe not as good as my old Nikon, but still quite good in Lightroom4.
My only comment of concern is that the internal processing engine seems vastly unpowered. The buffer; the write times to card seem quite long. When shooting people, can really be an issue if shooting a lot of frames quickly. The buffer will just lock up on you, and it makes you wait a long time. It is certainly no D3x, in terms of speed. Hopefully, if there was a revision model to this original body, they'd put in a V8 engine, instead of a little Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine. But maybe it was designed for landscape guys, where speed is not an issue. But my point is: test it with your own shooting style.
But for ten grand, it's an amazingly enjoyable camera to work with, even with its small underpowered engine.
The other weird thing I found: there was only a return policy option at B&H. Not at Adorama or Samys. Very bizarre to just write a check for ten grand on blind faith alone. Bizarre business practice by Pentax. B&H offered standard 30 days, but luckily I did not return it.
Very solid camera. Beautiful large viewfinder.
That is my contribution to this thread.
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Hi Luke!
I am not an expert but I think any major Japanese semiconductor giants could make a state of the art CCD of this size that would have significantly better performance than current American chips on the market. The problem would be cost rather than technical problems. I said (and attracted some animosity) from at least one year a go that Pentax should go CMOS in the next 645D simply because they have a great relation with Sony and could harness that in their own advantage.
Best regards,
Radu
Never with a CCD. Even if Pentax is able to acquire a CMOS design to use, I don't see any way they can possibly make use of 16 bits in raw. This does not stop MFD manufacturers from trying to float such claims, coyly or otherwise.
Print DR of course goes higher, but this of course has nothing to do with raw.
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Never with a CCD. Even if Pentax is able to acquire a CMOS design to use, I don't see any way they can possibly make use of 16 bits in raw. This does not stop MFD manufacturers from trying to float such claims, coyly or otherwise.
Print DR of course goes higher, but this of course has nothing to do with raw.
What makes you think a CMOS can't go to a 16 bit file.
Nikon d800 sensor gets more dynamic range than and CCD......
Also can any sensor really fill all the possible values of a 16 bit file?
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Fred,
Maybe just the CCD's you've used? Ability to lift shadows is great but if when you lift the shadows you don't get detail in the darkest areas and they just go from black to a clean grey doesn't mean the cameras got stellar DR.
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Fred,
Maybe just the CCD's you've used? Ability to lift shadows is great but if when you lift the shadows you don't get detail in the darkest areas and they just go from black to a clean grey doesn't mean the cameras got stellar DR.
The D800's shadows do contain a lot of information.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard,
We made a comparison in my studio of D800 vs Aptus 12. No question the d800 shadows can be lifted, perhaps more than the aptus, however I would not say the d800 has more DR. It looks like the aptus 12 has a bit more... maybe 1/2 a stop. That's what Imatest says also, when I used the RAW sample someone here supplied of the stouffer transmissive step wedge against the one I shot with the aptus 12. Hard to be exact when the two files were shot by different people but it seems clear to me. I think the d800e gets lots of detail, but lacks good color tonality and also presence compared to the MF. I'd be surprised if the Pentax didn't also have better DR and color.
Eric
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Bernard,
We made a comparison in my studio of D800 vs Aptus 12. No question the d800 shadows can be lifted, perhaps more than the aptus, however I would not say the d800 has more DR. It looks like the aptus 12 has a bit more... maybe 1/2 a stop. That's what Imatest says also, when I used the RAW sample someone here supplied of the stouffer transmissive step wedge against the one I shot with the aptus 12. Hard to be exact when the two files were shot by different people but it seems clear to me. I think the d800e gets lots of detail, but lacks good color tonality and also presence compared to the MF. I'd be surprised if the Pentax didn't also have better DR and color.
Eric
Not exactly the way to go about a test... shot at different locations and not physically the same target.
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What makes you think a CMOS can't go to a 16 bit file.
Nikon d800 sensor gets more dynamic range than and CCD......
You could of course have a 16-bit file but you would still only have 14 data bits.
The D800 sensor achieves 13.23 Ev of per-pixel engineering DR according to DxO.
Getting another two full stops out of this, to merit 16 data bits, is not going to be easy. Quantum efficiency is already above 50%. If you put those same Exmor pixels into a MF sensor, the per-pixel DR, all that matters for raw, is still 13.23 Ev.
This is not to say that a MF Exmor type sensor would not be a major advance in photographic quality overall. The print (as opposed to per-pixel) DR would be impressive. But thermal noise would be a problem at high gain settings I'd wager.
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Not exactly the way to go about a test... shot at different locations and not physically the same target.
Fred,
It's a lot better than shooting a mailbox or fence or whatever it was... was it a lamp post? :D Just joking with you. Trust me, I made many comparisons with a model in studio using the same lights and both cameras.
And I also did the imatest comparison too. The person who posted the d800 raw did a decent job of shooting the target (actually Bernard was that you?) , but still since I didn't do both from start I decided to not post the results. I don't own a D800 or D800e so can't repeat. I do own an AFi-ii 12 and a CF 528 multishot. There are a lot of variables to fiddle with - which RAW converter is just one. But still everyone should do their own tests for their own purposes. All I can say is I was ready to buy a D800 to use for some work, but decided to wait after seeing the look. As you know from our e-mails, instead I may get a fuji 680iii and use my CF 528 on it.
Eric
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The person who posted the d800 raw did a decent job of shooting the target (actually Bernard was that you?) ,
Certainly not, I would not devote even a second to shooting targets. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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A very expensive lens but like no other in the MF world. ;)
Radu
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A very expensive lens but like no other in the MF world. ;)
Radu
Details? ???
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I cannot say much (the press release comes online on 9/11) but if that is what Ricoh has in mind with Pentax I predict a dramatic shift from the "poor man's MF system" to "state of the art MF system" in a few years.
Best regards,
Radu
Details? ???
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Certainly not, I would not devote even a second to shooting targets. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
Well one doesn't reach their best without understanding their tools limits (and their own). I'm sure you have your own ways of making comparisons. ;)
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Sounds like a tilt-shift lense, right? ;D
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No! ;)
That's the problem; some people think that Pentax should make quasi identical stuff to other MF companies just cheaper yet it seems to me they already chose the path of making what you cannot find elsewhere regardless of price. Like I said before (then I was just making a supposition) this lens is on paper an extremely ambitious design and with a Leica like price tag. If it delivers in the real world I can only conclude that Pentax wants to offer the best price/performance ratio and aims to do it not by lowering the price but by offering the best performance there is.
Because I am not sadistic by nature ;D I will tell you that:
1) It covers the full frame of 645 film;
2) This (and the new supertelephoto 560mm for Pentax DSRL) will inaugurate a new state of the art nano coatings developed by Pentax. Considering the track record of SMC and Aero Bright Coating I expect great performance;
3) It will be without any doubt the most versatile lens in the MF world and in combination with 645D2 will open up new applications impossible now for MF users. I can only sincerely hope that the other big companies that make MF gear will implement the same technologies and will compete.
BR,
Radu
Sounds like a tilt-shift lense, right? ;D
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it's a pity, I would kill for a tilt-shift lense for my 645D. But let's see what suprise Pentax will offer us.
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Looks like you will get away "without" murder! ;D
it's a pity, I would kill for a tilt-shift lense for my 645D. But let's see what suprise Pentax will offer us.
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.................I predict a dramatic shift from the "poor man's MF system" ..............
Hi Radu:
Rather I think of the 645D as a comparatively affordable MF camera with modern DSLR features. Producing state-of the-art and cutting edge products (e.g. 25mm) is admirable and consistent with a company that made a 800mm ED lens for a 67 camera; however, Pentax had excellent affordable offerings as well – I hope they don’t forget that tradition.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Indeed Pentax was an affordable option in the past but how much of that was due to the Yen/USD exchange rate? It would be very interesting if someone could compare the ratio between let's say a Hasselblad system of a camera + some lenses vs. a Pentax one with technical specs as close as possible let's say in the 90's and how much is today. My hunch is that Pentax is much more "affordable" today relatively speaking. And one more thing: even if two lenses are let's say the very same focal and aperture it is unfair to compare a 5 or 6 elements one with a much better corrected modern design since the later has inherently a lot more 1000 USD/kilo optical glass in it.
Just my 2 eurocents,
Radu
Hi Radu:
Rather I think of the 645D as a comparatively affordable MF camera with modern DSLR features. Producing state-of the-art and cutting edge products (e.g. 25mm) is admirable and consistent with a company that made a 800mm ED lens for a 67 camera; however, Pentax had excellent affordable offerings as well – I hope they don’t forget that tradition.
Tom
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Radu:
Yes the diminishing USD is responsible for price increases, but that wasn’t my point. When the 645D was introduced, a new wide angle was an immediate need. Pentax chose to introduce a extraordinarily wide and expensive lens for the 645 format. A 30mm f/4.5 would have been easier, less expensive and a better seller – the 25mm could have come later. Based on your comments, the 90mm will also be a spectacular, but an expensive lens as well.
Just my two US cents (currently worth somewhat less than before),
Tom
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Hi again Tom,
I agree with most of what you said but on the other hand resources must be prioritized. IMHO the best course of action for Pentax would of been to make available worldwide the FA 645 lenses (not only in Japan, Asia, Europe and maybe Canada?) because most of them perform well enough and cost reasonable amounts of money. Being able to buy then new and with warranty means a lot for the user's peace of mind. But if I ran Pentax I would not invest (in the first phase at least) 1 Yen in developing "meh lenses". Why make a new 30/4.5 when they already have a very respected 35/3.5?
BR,
Radu
Radu:
Yes the diminishing USD is responsible for price increases, but that wasn’t my point. When the 645D was introduced, a new wide angle was an immediate need. Pentax chose to introduce a extraordinarily wide and expensive lens for the 645 format. A 30mm f/4.5 would have been easier, less expensive and a better seller – the 25mm could have come later. Based on your comments, the 90mm will also be a spectacular, but an expensive lens as well.
Just my two US cents (currently worth somewhat less than before),
Tom
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Here you have it:
1) Also a Macro lens not just optimised for portraiture;
2) A new state of the art coatings (HD);
3) First lens in the MF world to have optical stabilisation.
BR,
Radu
http://photorumors.com/2012/09/07/pentax-q-15-45mm-f2-8-fa645-macro-90mm-f2-8-and-da18-270mm-f3-5-6-3-sdm-lenses-leaked/
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Looks like Pentax wants to reach the same lofty price range as Phase, Leica, and Hasselblad. Probably justified as their cameras and lenses are as good or better. I guess it probably works as long as the cameras stay in the 10K - 15K range and as long as sufficient numbers of high quality FA and A lenses are available on the used market. In terms of specific lenses, the 1.2K for the 55mm would be o.k. as long as the quality control holds up. I found the 25mm DA a true winner and thought the $5K was hefty but acceptable, considering its unique status. Something like $4K for an outstanding wideangle zoom would be probably similarly acceptable.
The $5K for the 90mm will be a tough sale, even for ardent fans like me. In my macro stable, there are the excellent 120mm 645 and 100mm 67 Pentax lenses. Most recently, I am also enjoying a 95mm/2.8 Printing Nikkor for macro with stellar resolution. For portraits I anyway prefer something longer, such as the 150mm. But I do understand Pentax' effort to develop a line-up of first rate lenses to compete with the best, and that unfortunately costs some money. It does pose the question though even for me as to how much longer I can afford Pentax' newly found status as a player in the upper echelons of the medium format market.
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Looks like Pentax wants to reach the same lofty price range as Phase, Leica, and Hasselblad. Probably justified as their cameras and lenses are as good or better. I guess it probably works as long as the cameras stay in the 10K - 15K range and as long as sufficient numbers of high quality FA and A lenses are available on the used market. In terms of specific lenses, the 1.2K for the 55mm would be o.k. as long as the quality control holds up. I found the 25mm DA a true winner and thought the $5K was hefty but acceptable, considering its unique status. Something like $4K for an outstanding wideangle zoom would be probably similarly acceptable.
The $5K for the 90mm will be a tough sale, even for ardent fans like me. In my macro stable, there are the excellent 120mm 645 and 100mm 67 Pentax lenses. Most recently, I am also enjoying a 95mm/2.8 Printing Nikkor for macro with stellar resolution. For portraits I anyway prefer something longer, such as the 150mm. But I do understand Pentax' effort to develop a line-up of first rate lenses to compete with the best, and that unfortunately costs some money. It does pose the question though even for me as to how much longer I can afford Pentax' newly found status as a player in the upper echelons of the medium format market.
I agree completely, Tom, I too begin to feel priced out of the system. Radu, It seems Pentax agrees with your preference for cutting-edge and expensive lenses. Very interesting lens, but I’m not sure of the value of SR in a macro lens or even the need for a 90mm. I certainly don’t think it’s good marketing to introduce two new $5000 lenses. Perhaps, as Tom suggested, Pentax wants to price with Phase, Hasselblad and Leica, but that would appear to be an already small and shrinking market.
When the 645D appeared, it accessed a new market for medium format by offering higher quality at a cost near high-end 35mm DSLRs. The cost of these new lenses is pricing the system out of that market. These prices will simply drive more buyers to Nikon and Zeiss.
Regards,
Tom
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I guess some of it makes sense. Folks like us in fact do have our old lenses which are excellent and which we will keep around anyway. Also, Ricoh talks about marketing the P645D to museums and for that application the 90mm would make sense.
But: how many museums today have the budget for a P645D system with $5K lenses? How much performance can there be gained over the 120mm macro when even Pentax admits that the present shutter mechanism limits performance?
And then: who does Ricoh/Pentax think their customers will be if not us? For almost a decade I have kept all of my 645 lenses in a drawer, hoping for a digital 645. From an announcement to a cancellation to another announcement followed by another cancellation, another announcement, then a delay etc.. The final product, the 645D, turned out to be a big winner IMHO. I am also still sort-of happy with the 25mm. But I would have liked to see a shift lens, a fast portrait lens, perhaps a long and fast telephoto, and all at slightly more reasonable prices.
Let's see what the 645dii brings. But I agree with Tom: Pentax would be well advised to not neglect their loyal customer base.
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There must be a secret society of wealthy Pentax645D owners somewhere who are prepared to spend 5 grand for each new lens released. Certainly the users I am aware of are largely interested in the 645D as a relatively less expensive route to MFD.
But sorry if Pentax want to charge Leica prices they will have to also develop Lecia prestige, thats not going to happen. Spending 5k on a Leica Lens is a lot easier to swallow as you are not concerned about the resale value.
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This kind of pricing is the death-knell for the 645D. My decision to exit the system in favour of the D800E was tipped by the price of the 25mm and 90mm. For that kind of money I can buy Leica glass, which will (a) be better and (b) hold its value. That's assuming I *have* that kind of money! I put together my entire 10 lens kit for about that much money during the 'dark years' of waiting. The price of the 25mm and 90mm alone buys my whole Nikon kit. That's reality.
Pentax may do amazing things and lure us back, but I doubt it. I found the 645D suffered shutter-impact-induced image degradation on too many occasions, even with the best tripod and even sometimes with higher shutter speeds. This mirrored my experience with the Phase-miya cameras. There's a reason Phase is rapidly bringing LS lenses to market.
Frankly, as much as I loved the 645D, there is ever-less reason for such systems. Live-view, LS lenses, image-stabilizing and a 60+MP sensor? Then maybe. But short of that, why?
For $2K a pair of Sigma DP cameras are the equal of my Fuji 690 and 690SW. And no back-ache :-)
At any rate, it will be interesting to see what 'Kina 12 brings.
See you at the Pentax booth...with fingers crossed.
- N.
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Perhaps having top notch lenses that are more of an investment will keep people in their ecosystem ? Seems to be working for the other MF brands. Bodies change quickly while good lenses generally stay usable much longer. Leica has great and well respected glass which is most likely the number one reason they can charge so much for subpar bodies to put it on. Sure the quality is there but from an usability standpoint things have advanced. The average Nikon camera feels more like a practical tool than does a M leica.
The fanboy/collectors market can be very lucrative and add to perceived brand value. Looking at cameras as a purely photographic tools and not romanticized gadgets, I would say that Pentax's medium format offering is hugely under valued as far as MF goes. The folks who use it as a tool will not mind spending 5k on a good workhorse lens especially if future bodies will be able to extract more resolution out of it. I would much rather pay less for the body and more for the lenses (providing they are good) instead of the other way around.
As far as the whole D800 vs Phase/645D/Blad debate goes, there is no question that the D800 is an amazing deal. But people shooting MF don't purely look at specs vs cost because those are not the only two factors at play.
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As far as the whole D800 vs Phase/645D/Blad debate goes, there is no question that the D800 is an amazing deal. But people shooting MF don't purely look at specs vs cost because those are not the only two factors at play.
Regardless, Pentax doesn't have the bling factor of a billion megapixels, or Hasselblad's and Leica's name to get the western market to drop 5k for a lens, especially in the advanced amateur world.
Unless Pentax makes a camera that no one can do without, I strongly suggest keeping their camera under 10 grand, finding a way to make it tether reliably and fast because if they don't they'll just drive the 25 year old somethings to the Nikon 800.
For verticals (which is a dying orientation) a 4:3 native crop is nice, but then again, you can always put some gaff tape on the lcd on the Nikon.
IMO
BC
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Hi James,
That’s the beauty of the Nikon D800 with a push of a button it shoots 4:3 format and the view finder shows the crop lines.
Cheers
Simon
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Lots on interesting input from current users perspective except for the fact that Pentax most likely sold in every Top 5 Japanese cities more 645Ds and expensive lenses (not just 25mm but also the almost equally expensive FA * 300/4 and FA 400/5.6) than in both Americas from Arctic circle to Tierra del Fuego. If there is an amateur market for them it is there not in the West. Let's wait a few weeks and after Photokina we will have a better perspective about every major MF manufacturer offering as a system.
The list price for Europe is almost equal to the Euro to what Hasselblad recommends for their 120/4 and while are not the same focal I say that if Pentax delivers on its promises you get a free 100/2.2 ;)
What remains a fact is that Pentax will soon have three lenses that are unique in the MF ecosystem (25mm, 90mm PORTRAIT/Macro, the ultrawide zoom) plus a new camera. If they will gain traction in the professional photography or not is anybody's guess.
The talk about how old (20+ years old), few hundred bucks a piece lenses are perfectly fine reminds me about my two fifty-something mm lenses. One is a Helios (Zeiss Biogon design stolen from Germany as a war spoils) 58mm/f2 and the other is a DA* 55mm/1.4. The first one cost me (used, but almost mint) about 2% of the cost on the DA* and for sure is not inferior by a factor of 50 but not up to most professional quality levels needed either.
Best regards,
Radu
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I guess you have a point, Radu. Let's see how it performs. The 90mm f/4 Schneider Apo Macro Symmar is also $4.5K. And for mere mortals, there is always the 120mm f/4 in both A and FA versions.
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Lots on interesting input from current users perspective except for the fact that Pentax most likely sold in every Top 5 Japanese cities more 645Ds and expensive lenses (not just 25mm but also the almost equally expensive FA * 300/4 and FA 400/5.6) than in both Americas from Arctic circle to Tierra del Fuego. If there is an amateur market for them it is there not in the West. Let's wait a few weeks and after Photokina we will have a better perspective about every major MF manufacturer offering as a system.
snip
I dig Pentax and think about buying the 645 d all the time.
The deal killer for me is they don't have tethering software, (though I hate to tether), they don't have a huge selection of lenses, they don't have a removable prism and most of all they're are few of their systems in rental studios.
Now with that in mind I respect the hell out of what they did. The first medium format camera with a useable lcd, medium weather sealing and most of all a 10 grand price tag. They also have that wonderful 40mpx kodak sensor that really will go to higher iso, like the h4d 40.
The problem is for almost the price I can buy a refurbished h4d40 that does have a software suite, that is in rental and though getting a little old in the tooth, performs professionally well.
The other problem is I used medium format less than any other camera and my contax bodies, phase backs keep chugging along and nobody complains, they're also profitable as I've billed them out way past purchase price and I love the Contax, except the view through the prism finder.
With the waist level finder it's perfect and the shutter is very smooth.
I really do think in the professional world the $30,000, $40,000, and $50,000 camera systems are a thing of the past for the professional. Nikon and Canon have pretty much killed off that thought in todays world economy.
Anyway, I've worked in Japan about 6 times and I'm miles away from being an expert on Japanese culture and business practices, I do know they are fiercely loyal to their own companies and everywhere I go I see amateurs with older Mamiyas and Pentax of all formats shooting flowers and scenics and taking hours upon hours for one shot, so I can understand why the 645 Pentax sells well in Japan.
IMO
BC
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Hi James,
That’s the beauty of the Nikon D800 with a push of a button it shoots 4:3 format and the view finder shows the crop lines.
Cheers
Simon
Does the 4:3 format maintain 36MP ?
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No, it's a crop.
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Radu:
Perhaps Pentax should hire you for PR. You have reminded me that the 645D was intended only for the Japanese market. Design and price of the new 645 lenses may be determined solely by the prestige and sales they will generate in Japan. Still, if the huge cost difference between 35mm and MF continues, even a Pentax loyalist in Japan may be tempted by the D800.
Regards,
Tom
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Hi BC,
Great input but you underestimate the power that Pentax has to mismarket (is this a word?) itself. The tethering software exists but only to be completely unknown outside Japan:
http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-medium-format-645-6x7-645d/195346-first-look-pentax-official-tethering-software-645d.html
Best regards,
Radu
I dig Pentax and think about buying the 645 d all the time.
The deal killer for me is they don't have tethering software, (though I hate to tether), they don't have a huge selection of lenses, they don't have a removable prism and most of all they're are few of their systems in rental studios.
Now with that in mind I respect the hell out of what they did. The first medium format camera with a useable lcd, medium weather sealing and most of all a 10 grand price tag. They also have that wonderful 40mpx kodak sensor that really will go to higher iso, like the h4d 40.
The problem is for almost the price I can buy a refurbished h4d40 that does have a software suite, that is in rental and though getting a little old in the tooth, performs professionally well.
The other problem is I used medium format less than any other camera and my contax bodies, phase backs keep chugging along and nobody complains, they're also profitable as I've billed them out way past purchase price and I love the Contax, except the view through the prism finder.
With the waist level finder it's perfect and the shutter is very smooth.
I really do think in the professional world the $30,000, $40,000, and $50,000 camera systems are a thing of the past for the professional. Nikon and Canon have pretty much killed off that thought in todays world economy.
Anyway, I've worked in Japan about 6 times and I'm miles away from being an expert on Japanese culture and business practices, I do know they are fiercely loyal to their own companies and everywhere I go I see amateurs with older Mamiyas and Pentax of all formats shooting flowers and scenics and taking hours upon hours for one shot, so I can understand why the 645 Pentax sells well in Japan.
IMO
BC
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Hi Tom,
All my life I was more of a technical savvy person so a PR role doesn't suit me very well. ;) The press release will be at 6 PM EST so in a few hours we will see why Pentax asks that price tag. Anyway when you compare prices with the FA 645 120/4 Macro I think it is fair to do so with NEW lenses not used one. And one such lens NEW costs almost 2000 Euro.
http://www.fotokonijnenberg.nl/product/1537308/pentax-645-smc-fa-120mm-f40-macro.html
Best regards,
Radu
Radu:
Perhaps Pentax should hire you for PR. You have reminded me that the 645D was intended only for the Japanese market. Design and price of the new 645 lenses may be determined solely by the prestige and sales they will generate in Japan. Still, if the huge cost difference between 35mm and MF continues, even a Pentax loyalist in Japan may be tempted by the D800.
Regards,
Tom
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I really do think in the professional world the $30,000, $40,000, and $50,000 camera systems are a thing of the past for the professional. Nikon and Canon have pretty much killed off that thought in todays world economy.
IMO
BC
It's not really just about the price. 35mm DSLR cameras are just way more reliable, better ergonomics and come so damn close to the hellishly expensive MFDBs that there are much better things to spend the money on....
Lights, trips for work, film developing and larger Format...... An old VW bug....
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Hi Iarkis,
It crops down to 30MP in the 4:3 format.
Cheers
Simon
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Hi Iarkis,
It crops down to 30MP in the 4:3 format.
Cheers
Simon
30 MP is still a nice size.
I contacted Nikon about the 4:3 format suggesting being able to shift the crop area so as to be able to use the focusing
points better for fashion and portraits....
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5457/6902957300_5b5f1cefdc_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7237/6902957320_68152ce7b2_b.jpg)
They were quite receptive and said it should be possible with a firmware upgrade.
Moving the face closer to the sweet spot of the lens should more than compensate for slightly lower pixel count.
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It's not really just about the price. 35mm DSLR cameras are just way more reliable, better ergonomics and come so damn close to the hellishly expensive MFDBs .............. An old VW bug....
Fred:
Have you handled a 645D? I can't speak to the other MFDBs, but the handling and interface of the 645D is much like a 35mm - not surprisingly much like a K-5. As for reliablity, I've had mine for almost two years without any problems. It has not been hellishly expensive - so far, hence the concern with the new lens prices.
An old VW camper would be my choice :D
Tom
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..............when you compare prices with the FA 645 120/4 Macro I think it is fair to do so with NEW lenses not used one. And one such lens NEW costs almost 2000 Euro.
I understand Radu, but it's still quite a jump from 2000 euro to $5000 USD. I don't think anyone would complain with lenses in the $2-3,000 range.
Regards,
Tom
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The point Tom is that in Europe we can buy a FA 120 Macro, new with at least 2 years warranty for 2K Euro and the new 90 one stop faster, with stabilization, in lens motor, weather sealed, state of the art coatings for twice as much. Choices are good!
Best regards,
Radu
P.S. The announcement shoud be in 6 minutes.
I understand Radu, but it's still quite a jump from 2000 euro to $5000 USD. I don't think anyone would complain with lenses in the $2-3,000 range.
Regards,
Tom
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http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/10/Pentax-reveals-HD-Pentax-D-FA-645-Macro-90mm-F2-8-ED-AW-SR-stabilized-lens-for-645D
covers 645 film frame
0,5x magnification
11 elements in 9 groups
over 1 kilo
claims 3,5 stops capable in lens stabilization
9 rounded diafragm blades
4499 USD MSRP
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It is better than expected :)
only 4,500 usd.
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Well - they've made a neat little lens and they are justifyably proud of it. I guess I'll fall for it if the internet erupts with praise and glory after the first images posted. And if it equals the Schneider Symmar 90mm/f4. ;D
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Fred:
Have you handled a 645D? I can't speak to the other MFDBs, but the handling and interface of the 645D is much like a 35mm - not surprisingly much like a K-5. As for reliablity, I've had mine for almost two years without any problems. It has not been hellishly expensive - so far, hence the concern with the new lens prices.
An old VW camper would be my choice :D
Tom
The Pentax 645D puts all the other MFDB cameras to shame as far as handling goes. Just the vertical tripod thread to start with.
Great viewfinder, focusing etc.
The reason I did not go with a 645D was the small sensor... 33x44 not really that much bigger than a FF 24x36.
But keep in mind I ended up ditching MFD for a combination of D800 and large medium format 96x8cm) plus large forma film 8x10in.
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Radu,
Any news on the 645D II?
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IMO all depends on how threatened Pentax will feel about what other manufacturer will bring to the Photokina. Normally they should keep the 645D's successor and the top of the line K-3 APS-C camera for a CP+ announcement end of January 2013 since CP+ is their "home show" with hard delivery in March but we will see if that's correct. Anyway since today Pentax announced an improved AF module on the K-5 II(s) the first updated "component" of the "645D2" is already here.
Regards,
Radu
Radu,
Any news on the 645D II?
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After all the Photokina announcements it is pretty clear why Pentax didn't bothered to bring the 645D2 and kept it for their home show.
BR,
Radu
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I agree with you, Radu. In terms of technology development, Pentax looks good, especially at this Photokina, with Phase, Hasselblad, Leica, and Rollei/DHW presenting only minor updates. I am personally very happy with the new Hy6 as an improved platform for the Leaf backs. Hasselblad certainly managed to embarrass themselves big time with the Lunatic. After some reflection I am still not sure whether the 90mm is for me, mostly because of its odd focal length. But it shows Pentax' commitment to technology development and excellence. In a few years, they may well become the leader of the medium format pack.
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Hi Tom,
I also agree with you! ;D It is pretty clear that the high end dslr and 645D2 will share a new electronic platform. I hope for a dramatical improvement in responsiveness especially since the Mp increase will be not so big. I think we will see much faster preview and flush to card times and live view on par with any modern dslr.
Also at CP+ they will launch the ultrawide zoom which will probably cost less than P1's 28mm and will give you a considerable number of millimeters more to play with ;) and possibly even in-lens stabilization? Maybe you should wait until January before committing to the 90 mm if you don't feel strongly about it.
Best regards,
Radu
I agree with you, Radu. In terms of technology development, Pentax looks good, especially at this Photokina, with Phase, Hasselblad, Leica, and Rollei/DHW presenting only minor updates. I am personally very happy with the new Hy6 as an improved platform for the Leaf backs. Hasselblad certainly managed to embarrass themselves big time with the Lunatic. After some reflection I am still not sure whether the 90mm is for me, mostly because of its odd focal length. But it shows Pentax' commitment to technology development and excellence. In a few years, they may well become the leader of the medium format pack.
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......................... In a few years, they may well become the leader of the medium format pack.
Tom:
Given the current dysfunction at Hasselblad and the rather unexciting announcements from Phase, you may be correct, particularly if Radu's comments about the 645II are accurate. Leica seems committed to the S, but that’s in a whole different price category.
Tom
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Well, looks like we are all in agreement then. :D The new wide angle zoom sounds like a winner as does the 645DII. I love the 25mm and I'd consider the 90mm if the sensor size stays at 33x44. If it becomes full-frame, the focal length is just too odd for me. I don't think I'd be in the market for the other two zooms, but whatever is next is bound to be exciting.
I wish Pentax well. Their Q system will gain momentum with better sensors, especially since they have lowered the price. I wish they'd develop a compact and functional K-01 replacement that takes advantage of the huge availability of K-mount lenses. The K-5II is definitely a great camera, but keeping two lens lines, APS-C and full frame, will continue to have have customers wait for full-frame. Some are saying the gap between the 645D and the K-5II is too big, thus Pentax might do well developing a $3K full-frame body to use with their full-frame lenses, and slowly convert their APS-C system to be used with a mirrorless compact body. This would truly be a great line-up. The GXR is a peculiarity, but has its followers and may remain in the market as long as there are customers. If Ricoh would be able to help Pentax through such a transition, the company would be able to maintain its status as a serious competitor.
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I think what is also important for Pentax is to fish out really good photographers that use their cameras in order to display their work on their site and at trade shows . Making the brand be associated with more serious users who treat the cameras like tools for concrete projects instead of fan-boy camera clubs is important for feedback on the technology itself. Companies that only rely on fans often times loose touch with reality because fans will rationalize any bad decision as being ok.
Who is the Pentax using equivalent of Steve McCurry, or a Charles Cramer for fine art landscape ? People who have been published extensively or have success with gallery sales ? I realize that a lot of photographers will use various systems, many still stay loyal to a particular brand because of some key characteristics that appeal to them. If Pentax is going after the active outdoor crowd with their weather sealing and marketing, why are the top pics from that crowd not being shown and promoted by Pentax ?
PS: Before I'm accused of being anti Pentax, the 645D is my most used camera system out of the ones I own.
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......Who is the Pentax using equivalent of Steve McCurry, or a Charles Cramer for fine art landscape ? People who have been published extensively or have success with gallery sales ?........
Larkis:
Some who come immediately to mind: Nick Brandt and Robet Glenn Ketchum who may still use Pentax film cameras; James Kay, who I know now uses a 645D. I'm sure there are others as well.
Remember too that the 645D was intended only for the Japanese market; I have been told that in Japan the medium format landscape camera is, and has been, a Pentax.
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Larkis:
Some who come immediately to mind: Nick Brandt and Robet Glenn Ketchum who may still use Pentax film cameras; James Kay, who I know now uses a 645D. I'm sure there are others as well.
Remember too that the 645D was intended only for the Japanese market; I have been told that in Japan the medium format landscape camera is, and has been, a Pentax.
Salgado used to use a 645N.
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Has there been any early-year news for a successor body to the 645D? Anything with a more powerful processing engine and better buffer? Thanks.
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I am also wondering - the 645D ii or any news on the new wide angle zoom?
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Radu! Come on. Any takers? Have they sworn you to secrecy or is Ricoh out of cash? Is your source cold or do you need to work on your telepathic abilities? Talk, man, spill it! ???
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Hi Tom,
If all is ready you can expect a Q2 announcement. If the sensor or other parts aren't ready yet ... you can't! ;)
Radu
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Thank you, Radu,
A sign of life was all I was hoping for after no news at photokina and cp+. Looks like they are working on it. In fact, I would have been surprised to see a larger sensor version ready by now.
Tom
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You are welcome Tom! :)
The problem with Pentax is not the lack of Ricoh's commitment but the exact opposite; the vastness of its ambition means that after some ad interim products (which btw had much better quality control than other recent Pentax products) will follow new ones, new brand positioning and new grand ambitions. That will take time and some projects could be delayed.
One thing is for sure: all the 2013 Pentax products are part of the Ricoh's strategy not leftovers from Hoya.
Best regards,
Radu
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As a new comer to the Pentax world can i just hop in and say how much I love my new Pentax 645D system over my old 35mm set up.
The Pentax 645D is everything i was hoping for and then some. Very interesting company to keep an eye on.
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Thanks, Radu,
For me the 645D project is certainly Pentax' star: great lenses, great camera, great past (lenses), great legacy, and tons of adaptable stuff. I don't care that much about FF and all the other offerings. A well positioned 645D system would re-establish confidence in the brand and its leadership, and this would have a trickle-down effect on smaller systems. In fact, with the 645D and the K-5ii Pentax has all it takes to appeal to a broad customer base. Don't understand the FF hype.
In the next couple of years, the 645D system would need a few more new lenses, the wide angle zoom and perhaps a wide angle shift lens. Maybe they even can adopt Schneider's 120mm APO macro. A longer tele macro in the 200mm range would be unique and imminently practical, especially with image stabilization. Now that's something I'd spend my cash on. Their existing 300mm and 400mm lenses are outstanding and don't really need much updating, and beyond that, hands down, FF telephotos might have an advantage in most situations. Finally one fast portrait lens, 2.0. Around 120mm. Pentax has never done that. Don't know why.
That's all... 8). My wish list. I know Radu you can influence them. :P
And even if not, the Pentax 645D rocks!
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A corroboration for a Q2 announcement.
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Radu:
Can you interpret the meaning for us? Pentax K3?
Tom
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Radu:
Can you interpret the meaning for us? Pentax K3?
More like a 645D II I would think?
The specs that would get me interested would be:
- 50-60 mp,
- D800 like DR or more,
- usable live view (meaning a CMOS sensor),
- sensor slightly larger than the 645D (a few mm would do).
Nikon would have to be good with the D4x to get more cash from me if Pentax releases such a camera!
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi Tom,
K-3 will be the top of the line APS-C camera and the next generation in terms of electronics inside (sensor, AF module, and so on), a true state of the art camera. The K-3S will be the same but without AA filter (in the same way K-5 II and K-5 II5 are today). Both projects (K-3 and 645D 2) were postponed most likely due to sensor issues which leads me to believe that both will have sensors from the same manufacturer. The only question is whether that will be Sony or Toshiba?
Best regards,
Radu
Radu:
Can you interpret the meaning for us? Pentax K3?
Tom
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Bernard, the best part about the 645D 2 won't be that it will be revolutionary rather that evolutionary compared to 645D but the fact that will not cost too much more in Yen than the original price of the 645D.
Best regards,
Radu
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a true state of the art camera.
true state of the art APS-C camera in terms of AF and metering from Pentax ? do you even believe yourself ? nice body or getting everything out of the sensor - yes... but AF, metering, flash support ;D ?!
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I have a 645D kit with many lenses for sale soon. Will list in the ForSale section of this board. Great camera; great viewfinder; but underpowered engine for shooting people, super-fast. Hits buffer too quickly. Sad to see it go. But can't wait for Version II. Thanks.
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Bernard, the best part about the 645D 2 won't be that it will be revolutionary rather that evolutionary compared to 645D but the fact that will not cost too much more in Yen than the original price of the 645D.
That would be great!
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard, the best part about the 645D 2 won't be that it will be revolutionary rather that evolutionary compared to 645D but the fact that will not cost too much more in Yen than the original price of the 645D.
Best regards,
Radu
Radu,
Like gftwhif says, up the horsepower for processing and the buffer and for me ask for a good tethering suite that will wi-fi like c-1 does to an ipad.
Thanks,
BC
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Thanks Radu. My bet is Toshiba. I look forward to the wide angle zoom for the 645D.
Tom
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Radu,
Like gftwhif says, up the horsepower for processing and the buffer and for me ask for a good tethering suite that will wi-fi like c-1 does to an ipad.
Thanks,
BC
Add leaf shutter lenses and it's a virtually perfect system ;)
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It appears that the tethering software has finally hit the street. Anyone here know anyone that might have actually used it? I'm afraid to know the answer. My luck, I'd order it, and the Serial Number would be #0000001-SUCKER.
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On the page 3 of this very thread:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=70126.msg557807#msg557807
It appears that the tethering software has finally hit the street. Anyone here know anyone that might have actually used it? I'm afraid to know the answer. My luck, I'd order it, and the Serial Number would be #0000001-SUCKER.
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A few months only until one of us will be proved wrong.
true state of the art APS-C camera in terms of AF and metering from Pentax ? do you even believe yourself ? nice body or getting everything out of the sensor - yes... but AF, metering, flash support ;D ?!
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You are welcome Tom, mine is Sony but at this point my guess is as good as yours!
Best regards,
Radu
Thanks Radu. My bet is Toshiba. I look forward to the wide angle zoom for the 645D.
Tom