Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: 32BT on August 07, 2012, 11:15:47 am
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It's time for a new forum rule:
- Your message count shall not exceed the average number of pictures you take each year...
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Mentioning no names of course .....
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Hi,
You never heard about 11 FPS (Frames Per Second)?
Best regards
Erik
Mentioning no names of course .....
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scaled by 1 picture/1000 words ;D
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It's time for a new forum rule:
- Your message count shall not exceed the average number of pictures you take each year...
You know I could find myself agreeing with this, due to some of the more vocal critiques coming from people who joined this forum years ago and yet who appear to have never posted an image. But alas I know your idea is doomed to failure, as those who do not post will come up with a long string of exceedingly valid reasons why they are unable to do so. It was the same at the camera club I belonged to, a dozen or so of us would enter every competition with multiple A3+ prints, spend all our time and hard earned cash on printing and mounting etc, only to get some old duffer sat in the corner grumbling how they thought the images were rubbish - I even accused some of the many noncontributors of only coming to the club house once a week to get out of the cold.
Dave
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Seems to me to be a very parochial view of image posting vs forum posting. The Internet is a big place and LuLa isn't typically the location of choice for the vast majority of photographers to post and share images.
I agree with the put up or shut up sentiment in general but don't presuppose that vocal members don't shoot or share - they just might not do it here. Certainly in the case of pro shooters, particularly those in the fine art market, there are definite reasons NOT to post or share any images that might turn up in a google image search. (after having discussed this with some folks privately I can understand why any such posts would devalue or negatively affect their published portfolios - you only ever want to see the very best images from a controlled portfolio and anything else drags the body of work down. Social media is a blessing and a curse some times).
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Still waiting to learn who's gonna be elected sheriff; imagine trawling through all those files with a magnifying glass or special spyware. What joy!
Rob C
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Seems to me to be a very parochial view of image posting vs forum posting. The Internet is a big place and LuLa isn't typically the location of choice for the vast majority of photographers to post and share images.
I agree with the put up or shut up sentiment in general but don't presuppose that vocal members don't shoot or share - they just might not do it here. Certainly in the case of pro shooters, particularly those in the fine art market, there are definite reasons NOT to post or share any images that might turn up in a google image search. (after having discussed this with some folks privately I can understand why any such posts would devalue or negatively affect their published portfolios - you only ever want to see the very best images from a controlled portfolio and anything else drags the body of work down. Social media is a blessing and a curse some times).
Absolutely right, Graham, and one of the few benefits of retirement: you no longer need to be so careful about 'image' and can have fun just playing again.
Rob C
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OK how about one image/month!
Marc
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OK how about one image/month!
Marc
On cloud nine? Literally!
Nice image btw. :-)
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Does one pano count as one image or as, say, 24? ;)
Mea culpa... I should be shooting more... now, a lot of my recent images have been devoted to a cute 5 months old little girl, and I have a policy not to post private images in public fora... so... I can hear you begging... but you guys will not see any of these masterpieces! ;D
Cheers,
Bernard
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Mea culpa... I should be shooting more... now, a lot of my recent images have been devoted to a cute 5 months old little girl, and I have a policy not to post private images in public fora... so... I can hear you begging... but you guys will not see any of these masterpieces! ;D
Cheers,
Bernard
Congrats for your little girl, Bernard! Now, you could always get a cat or hamster and show us some photos!
:D
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Are you planning on banning Jeff Schewe from posting on LuLa on this basis?
I might be wrong but I have never seen a posted image from Jeff in the time I have been a member.
Using Jeff as a good example, a helluva lot of good information is shared (including image critiques) by members who, in my admittedly limited experience, are not big posters of images.
Furthermore, to those who think that individuals who are not regularly posting images are not deserving of the privelages afforded by this forum, come and walk in my shoes for a month or two and then see whether you are able to think clearly to handle a camera appropriately.
I am an ICU physician. In the next 21 days I will be on call for my ICU for 10 nights. These are not shifts. I work my "normal" hours and then have to cover the ICU for emergencies after that. The last six calls I have worked I spent most of night in the ICU on five occasions.
If any of you hotshots, particularly if you are over 40 years of age, think you can do this and still shoot 500-1000 images a week, week in week out, with any expectation of quality please share!
Please check out my history. I love posting images but am very selective in what I post. I also contribute to most of the forum categories as and when I feel I can make a contribution.
This includes critiquing images. Those who read my critiques will note that I tend not to be disparaging. If I can't say anything constructive I won't post a comment. I regard image critique as much more than offering my opinion. It is also a way for me to learn. I closely scrutinize others who make comments to see what their take on the image is. Their insights allow me to learn plenty about photography and what makes a good image.
I actually obtain much pleasure in viewing many of the images posted on this forum. It sustains me during those times when I am unable to get out and shoot for myself.
Possibly the OP was a bit tongue-in-cheek with his suggestion.
I hope so - because this suggestion cannot be actually seriously entertained.
My humble opinion
Tony Jay
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Comprehensive reading skills FTW…,
… the operative word being "take", not "share".
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All right spell it out.
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Congrats for your little girl, Bernard! Now, you could always get a cat or hamster and show us some photos!
Thank you Francois!
There you go...
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6201/6111014012_ec40134be0_o.jpg)
I met this little fellow during a typhoon last September in the Izu peninsula, south of Tokyo. He was cold and scared and somehow thinking that climbing on my arm would help his condition... :)
Cheers,
Bernard
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OK how about one image/month!
Marc
Very nice! Did you open the window? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Thank you Francois!
There you go...
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6201/6111014012_ec40134be0_o.jpg)
I met this little fellow during a typhoon last September in the Izu peninsula, south of Tokyo. He was cold and scared and somehow thinking that climbing on my arm would help his condition... :)
Cheers,
Bernard
Wonderful, I love it. Your excellence is reaching even your living room!
Thanks al lot.
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Very nice! Did you open the window? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
No it gets a bit drafty!
The thunderstorm was over Naha, a Narita to Bali flight
Marc
PS Japanese cats definitely have character this one was in Kansai
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…PS Japanese cats definitely have character this one was in Kansai
Agree 100%. I must visit Japan, I didn't expect cats to be something special there!
:)
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There are innumerable curmudgeonly hacks in the world (particularly on the web), and when you look at their work, you realize they aren't really achieving any sort of excellence and their opinion isn't very valuable.
When I read a commentary or critique from someone I don't know (virtually), the first thing I do is look at their website. If I don't think their work is good, I substantially discount their opinion. If they don't have a website that shows something of their work (even a flickr site) I substantially discount their work even more. This method applies whether the person has 2 posts or 2,000 posts at LuLa or DPR or wherever.
The same goes for gear reviews. When I look at a gear review, I look at the person's portfolio to see if the operate their gear at a high level.
This is my version of put up or shut up.
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Excellent shot, Bernard. But you do realize, I hope, that you must call it a "hamster" and not a "cat," since Michael doesn't like Cat photos on the forum. ;)
Cheers,
Eric
P.S. When you have a Private Forum for posting photos of your daughter, please let us, your closest friends, see it.
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There are innumerable curmudgeonly hacks in the world (particularly on the web), and when you look at their work, you realize they aren't really achieving any sort of excellence and their opinion isn't very valuable.
When I read a commentary or critique from someone I don't know (virtually), the first thing I do is look at their website. If I don't think their work is good, I substantially discount their opinion. If they don't have a website that shows something of their work (even a flickr site) I substantially discount their work even more. This method applies whether the person has 2 posts or 2,000 posts at LuLa or DPR or wherever.
The same goes for gear reviews. When I look at a gear review, I look at the person's portfolio to see if the operate their gear at a high level.
This is my version of put up or shut up.
Gee whizz.
Woe is me - no website.
"Obviously" zero credibility.
Actually an opinion (critique) is just that - an opinion. Whether it is worth anything or has any credibility at all lies in the ability of the recipient to recognize the said worth in the critique - not some arbitrary external value test such as - does the author have a website themselves.
Bernie Madoff had a website as well and apparent credibilty - suckered a large number of apparently financially sophisticated individuals to sacrifice themselves to his greed.
Storm Financial (an Australian investment company) also had very good websites and a similar ponze scheme to old Bernie there and also went belly up taking countless millions of Dollars in investments with them.
Truth is truth, credibility is credibility, opinion is opinion, no matter what form it takes.
For me personally I am in no hurry to set up a website or even post images onto Flickr and Marc's post is definately no inducement.
If and when I see value in doing these things I will do them.
On a slightly different tack recently I posted in response to a question about LuLa forums that the great strength of this forum lay in the incredible diversity of individuals who were members. With regard to their potential value-adding contributions to the forum any "cookie-cutter" type approach to their contributions would run the risk of disregarding anyone who doesn't think the same as the one applying the cookie-cutter.
I really don't find it very difficult to appraise the comments about my image posts. I don't care whether those individuals post images themselves or not (although most do). I often try out the suggestions - some work and some do not. In one case a suggestion indirectly helped me solve a problem with an image that I had been battling with for about two years.
Occasionally, someone will just "bag" an image post with no attempt at being constructive. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to work this out.
I think balance should be the watchword here.
Regards
Tony Jay
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Well said Tony. I applaud your approach on here.
To stay within the topic of this thread, I'd like to add my own rule in an attempt at humour. This comes after many hours spent reading various threads, and is to be taken lightly. ;-)
Rule #4: Indeed, the use of the word indeed shall not exceed one use per three posts.
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Rule #4: Indeed, the use of the word indeed shall not exceed one use per three posts.
Yes, indeed!
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I guess some like to share their images others like to share their opinions
Horses for courses!
Marc :)
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Well said Tony. I applaud your approach on here.
To stay within the topic of this thread, I'd like to add my own rule in an attempt at humour. This comes after many hours spent reading various threads, and is to be taken lightly. ;-)
Rule #4: Indeed, the use of the word indeed shall not exceed one use per three posts.
One could go further, deeper and even better: ban the use of the personal pronoun I as well as the abstract noun, art.
Indeed, then we'd have nothing left about which to moan. Or, for that matter, about which to write.
Rob C
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One could go further, deeper and even better: ban the use of the personal pronoun I as well as the abstract noun, art.
Indeed, then we'd have nothing left about which to moan. Or, for that matter, about which to write.
Rob C
You'd be wrong, since the use of language seems to be a highly common and consistent theme within this forum, as even this thread may serve to exemplify, and which could be considered rather peculiar given the nature of this website.
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Gee whizz.
Woe is me - no website.
"Obviously" zero credibility.
...
I think balance should be the watchword here.
Regards
Tony Jay
Tony, When I read something on the web from someone I have never met, what else do I have to go on? I don't see a website for you, but I did a quick search on LuLa and came up with one photo you recently posted...it was a great shot of a lit-up bridge. For me this photo is the only proxy I have to judge your talent. I would be happier if I could have found more.
What would you prefer I use to judge your credibility? ...use of sarcasm, perhaps.
I agree that balance is a good guide, and I think there are probably cases where someone without a website would be okay...say they have published a readily available (to me) book that I think reflects well on them. Perhaps they have had gallery exhibitions I thought were notable.
Another consideration for balance is that everyone's opinion should be heard and used as a guide. What I am saying is that I don't weight every opinion equally. If someone says they are an iPhone photographer and they are specializing in cat photos, I may weight them a bit less in my efforts to look for suggestions to advance my craft.
Furthermore, the website thing goes both ways. There is notorious photo hack on the web (he shall remain nameless) who pollutes the web with crazy nonsense (initials are KR). His photo work ranges from poor to pedestrian....indeed!! ;-) Before I wasted the time evaluating his erratic and unreadable writing, I was able to decide his opinion meant little to me based on his work samples. Taking that a bit further, even when I hire people, I like to see samples of their work.
I don't highly value your opinion of things until I see your competence demonstrated to me in a product.
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If I were Tony Jay I would be insulted by your comment about being happier if you could see more of his work. But I'm not Tony and I'm insulted. Or perhaps confused might be a better description. Why should the absolute absence of any of my pictures on the web matter? It seems to me that what matters is what I write.
Look, I'm a doddering old man in my late seventies who adores photography and who doesn't have the need to "publish" regardless of whether I'm talented or not. I read about it. I collect books. I study with a photographic artist. I form opinions. I don't foist them on others unless asked or I do, rarely, in fora such as LuLa. I don't pretend to be a blogger or a KR.
So, why can't you accept what I write as having potential relevance without knowing what I do with a camera?
You youngsters. I just don't understand these kids today (:>)
David
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You'd be wrong, since the use of language seems to be a highly common and consistent theme within this forum, as even this thread may serve to exemplify, and which could be considered rather peculiar given the nature of this website.
Umm... I think that if you reread my post, you'll find I was just extending the logic (intentionally humorous lack of) that I found within the RobbieV post; I think he was being funny, and so I continued along the path. Or were you, too, being funny and it zoomed over my head? I wouldn't be at all surprised - perpetual lack of enough wine does that to me a lot. Combined with the current lack of chilled agua-con-gas in the fridge, I sweat out more than I currently put in; better that I repair the situation and go shopping.
Hasta la vista, I hope I'll be back!
Rob C
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Hasta la vista, I hope I'll be back!
So do we!
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Visual Presence
As one who, for ages, didn't have any website because I both lacked the skills to make one and, worse, was afraid to use images that had copyright/model release questions hanging over them, I understand that there are valid reasons why folks don't go online with their work. It's frustrating for anyone who does have quite nice stuff, and also for anyone else wondering if they are dealing with a lot of mouth sans trousers.
In the end, I think that over a few posts one can conclude quite accurately about another's place in the scheme of things.
But, in the final analysis, this site is about pictures, and I'm fairly sure most of us are here to enjoy some that are not our own, so posting a few is good for the entire readership. Long may it continue to be a font of interesting imagery, quirky or otherwise.
Rob C
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If I were Tony Jay I would be insulted by your comment about being happier if you could see more of his work. But I'm not Tony and I'm insulted. Or perhaps confused might be a better description. Why should the absolute absence of any of my pictures on the web matter? It seems to me that what matters is what I write.
Look, I'm a doddering old man in my late seventies who adores photography and who doesn't have the need to "publish" regardless of whether I'm talented or not. I read about it. I collect books. I study with a photographic artist. I form opinions. I don't foist them on others unless asked or I do, rarely, in fora such as LuLa. I don't pretend to be a blogger or a KR.
So, why can't you accept what I write as having potential relevance without knowing what I do with a camera?
You youngsters. I just don't understand these kids today (:>)
David
+10!
(But folks can also check my cluttered website if they wish.)
David
[/quote]
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So do we!
Thank you very much, but I still haven't been able to get up off the typist chair and shop! Any more sweat and I'll need another shower and that'll delay things further, and beyond the shopping for food 'n' drink I have to go see if that place making my roller blind background has done anything about it yet!
And I'm friggin' retired! What happened to the promised days of rest and calm, the chimera of security?
Rob C
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Rob C,
I look at LuLa more as a site about photography that naturally enough includes pictures. But more important to me was your statement that posting a few pictures is good for the entire readership. Frankly, I never looked at posting in that light and so, now, you have "converted" me.
Assuming I can figure out how to do so I'll post something next week and hope that as with bad tasting medicine my efforts will have some value to someone.
My issue with critiques I've seen on the world wide web is that the majority of them are from the POV that "This is how I would have taken it" instead of "This is what I see." There are also examples of critiquing the subject and not the photograph, which I think is an incorrect approach. Disclaimer: I'm guilty of that, too, sometimes.
David
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Tony, When I read something on the web from someone I have never met, what else do I have to go on? I don't see a website for you, but I did a quick search on LuLa and came up with one photo you recently posted...it was a great shot of a lit-up bridge. For me this photo is the only proxy I have to judge your talent. I would be happier if I could have found more.
What would you prefer I use to judge your credibility? ...use of sarcasm, perhaps.
I agree that balance is a good guide, and I think there are probably cases where someone without a website would be okay...say they have published a readily available (to me) book that I think reflects well on them. Perhaps they have had gallery exhibitions I thought were notable.
Another consideration for balance is that everyone's opinion should be heard and used as a guide. What I am saying is that I don't weight every opinion equally. If someone says they are an iPhone photographer and they are specializing in cat photos, I may weight them a bit less in my efforts to look for suggestions to advance my craft.
Furthermore, the website thing goes both ways. There is notorious photo hack on the web (he shall remain nameless) who pollutes the web with crazy nonsense (initials are KR). His photo work ranges from poor to pedestrian....indeed!! ;-) Before I wasted the time evaluating his erratic and unreadable writing, I was able to decide his opinion meant little to me based on his work samples. Taking that a bit further, even when I hire people, I like to see samples of their work.
I don't highly value your opinion of things until I see your competence demonstrated to me in a product.
I agree with you Fike and foretold how there would be a string of exceedingly valid reasons why this would not be acceptable.
But this whole question surely boils down to one of validity, which if we think about in the following way - when we hire a tradesman, we only do so when we know how able they are, we want referrals to evaluate the quality of their workmanship. So why would this be any different in photography? Yes we want feedback, but we also want to know on what basis that feedback can be validated, isn't this simply human nature?
Perhaps we could use a symbol to denote those people who share/post by adding something like this (P) at the end of our comments.
But my breath is not on hold.. :)
Dave (P)
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... we only do so when we know how able they are, we want referrals to evaluate the quality of their workmanship. We want feedback, but we also want to know on what basis that feedback can be validated...
Take care not to conflate the quality of someone's appreciation of others' photographs with your appreciation of the quality of that person's photographs.
Also, given the wish to judge someone's appreciation of others' photographs by judging that person's photographs yourself; you've already made your judgement of photographs the yardstick, so be aware that this may just create an echo chamber of the like minded.
... isn't this simply human nature?
Much mischief falls under that heading.
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When I read something on the web from someone I have never met, what else do I have to go on?
Your commonsense:- Does what was written make sense to you?
- Do you understand why what was written made sense to the writer? (People can be mistaken.)
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Your commonsense - Does what was written make sense to you?
Well....of course...lots of things make sense, but are not true...
..But credibly comes from actions and actions speak louder than words. For us photos are the artifacts of our actions.
There are others whose opinions of my photos I would also consider highly: an accomplished painter has a lot to say to what we do, as do accomplished optical engineers, and semiconductor designers, and photojournalists, and dancers and musicians. All these people have a body of work we would use to evaluate their scientific or artistic credibility.
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My issue with critiques I've seen on the world wide web is that the majority of them are from the POV that "This is how I would have taken it" instead of "This is what I see."
Yes - although that's true to such an extent that we should probably just be grateful when someone simply describes what they see ;-)
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Well....of course...lots of things make sense, but are not true...
I think you posted as I was modifying the comment you were replying to - which might or might not change your response.
But credibly comes from actions and actions speak louder than words.
In this case, the words are the actions.
Perhaps someone here has worked with a lot of photo editors and can give their opinion on whether photo editors are actually good at taking photos, as well as being good at selecting photos.
All these people have a body of work we would use to evaluate their scientific or artistic credibility.
Are you looking for authority figures?
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Are you looking for authority figures?
Don't put words in my mouth, that's unsanitary. ;D
Authority Figures...no, credible people, yes.
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I don't highly value your opinion of things until I see your competence demonstrated to me in a product.
Another point for consideration Marc: I presume you are selling your work.
In this context the ultimate judges of your work may very likely be complete aesthetic philistines who have no understanding of artistic significance never mind photography per se.
Furthermore, in the nature of commercial enterprise, one is guided in the direction of producing what sells, irrespective of what your opinion is of that work from an artistic and aesthetic viewpoint.
BTW, I have certainly not chosen to be insulted by your posts. This is an interesting debate and I would not want to close it down by being offended.
I can only reiterate that when one receives an opinion about one's work, from wherever it may come, surely one should interpret that opinion in the context of the work first. Very insightful comments can be forthcoming from people who are not photographers and understand nothing of the process. However, they have an eye for the artistic and the aesthetic.
It is not that difficult to judge the comment in this context.
Of course if individuals who have no idea of the process of photography are trying to inform one on the process then again it is not hard to pick the ignorant from the informed.
With regard to my image posts on LuLa, there are more apart from the post of that image of the Storey Bridge in Brisbane. However, as previously stated I am selective in what I post.
That particular image that you referred to was about three years in the conception and execution. I have shot the bridge many times but that evening gave me the light I had been looking for. The finished picture is a composite of twenty-four images. It prints beautifully to ten feet.
As far as I am concerned my photographic journey is definately still a work in progress. In this context I can learn much from others critiquing my work but also plenty from looking at the work of others. Being forced to commit ones thoughts to printed words and explicitly stating the strengths and weaknesses of an image certainly makes me think about my own work and measuring those same criteria to my work and also future projects.
Regards
Tony Jay
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Take care not to conflate the quality of someone's appreciation of others' photographs with your appreciation of the quality of that person's photographs.
Why not?
Also, given the wish to judge someone's appreciation of others' photographs by judging that person's photographs yourself; you've already made your judgement of photographs the yardstick, so be aware that this may just create an echo chamber of the like minded.
Not so, or else we would all be taking exactly the same images, which given the diversity of image and image quality on this forum, I think that just isn't the case.
Much mischief falls under that heading.
Yes I totally agree with that.. ;D
“As a general rule...people ask for advice only in order not to follow it; or if they do follow it, in order to have someone to blame for giving it.”
― Alexandre Dumas
“No man has the right to dictate what other men should perceive, create or produce, but all should be encouraged to reveal themselves, their perceptions and emotions, and to build confidence in the creative spirit.”
― Ansel Adams
Dave
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Gosh there is a lot of talking past one another on this thread. I should be more clear about the weighting of people's commentary.
The aesthetic opinion and reaction of the public at large does matter to me...whether they have ever taken a photo or not though I would be unlikely to accept their advice about composition and the craft of photography and/or printing. For this class of respondent, I would need to listen to their reaction and then determine if I felt their reaction warranted some change in my methods. Lots of filtering goes on for this group.
The reaction of accomplished professionals is more readily actionable to me. I am more likely to rush back to my studio to try a new post processing technique or to try a new compositional approach on my next outing if it comes from someone whose accomplishments in photography I respect or admire.
Like it or not, everyone is judged on their production...in whatever discipline they work. If you choose to hide your accomplishments from the larger internet community (of which we are a member here) then I have no way to do anything but put you in the first group above. Of course over time I may grow to know you more personally and your credibility may grow, but honestly, I don't really have online affiliations that go beyond very casual recognition of a name. (who is this Michael you guys keep talking about ;-) ) Without artifacts of your competence, I may never grow to know your work well enough to admire your accomplishments.