Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: EinstStein on August 05, 2012, 10:57:31 pm
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It's so hard to find a used digital back for Contax 645. Used digital backs with Hasselblad H mount are usually much cheaper and more available.
Any reasons? Im thinking to give up the Contax 645 and switch to Hasselblad H instead. Especially after reading many recommendation on Hasselblad digital systems.
Does the Hasselblad H system now have the interchangible back again? I remember for a while the digital H systems are close systems, with built-in digital back, But seems the H4D is interchangible again, and perhaps H5D too.
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EinstStein, I used to have both cameras. This is one of the two reasons why I sold the Contax 645 and bought a digital back for the Hasselblad. Contax 645 digital backs are very rare and tend to be more expensive. The other reason was that the H1 had better autofocus. I since then upgraded to a H2 and last year to a H4X. The H4X is an excellent camera. You can not buy it in the stores though. You will need to trade in a H1 or a H2 and add a fair amount of cash. FYI, the H4X takes all Phase One backs (I believe) and the Leaf Credo backs. It does not take Leaf Aptus II backs! The H4D only takes Hasselblad backs.
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Does H4X take Hasselblad back too? What about film back?
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I have an awesome Contax 645 systems. I'm sure you know how sweet the Zeiss lenses are. But recently they start to show some needs for the lubricate and clean-ups. Due to the status of this system, the cost for the clean-ups are horrible. This adds up the motivation to jump the ship.
However, I'm not comfortable with Fujiblad's lenses. How do you compare the two?
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The H4X takes film magazines. I believe it is not compatible however with the H4D digital backs.
The lenses are in my opinion excellent as are the Contax 645 lenses.
I would perhaps go for a H1/H2 film kit, first shoot some rolls of film, see whether you like it and upgrade to the H4X with DB if you do.
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EinstStein, I used to have both cameras. This is one of the two reasons why I sold the Contax 645 and bought a digital back for the Hasselblad. Contax 645 digital backs are very rare and tend to be more expensive. The other reason was that the H1 had better autofocus. I since then upgraded to a H2 and last year to a H4X. The H4X is an excellent camera. You can not buy it in the stores though. You will need to trade in a H1 or a H2 and add a fair amount of cash. FYI, the H4X takes all Phase One backs (I believe) and the Leaf Credo backs. It does not take Leaf Aptus II backs! The H4D only takes Hasselblad backs.
The H4X would be able to take the Aptus backs, Hasselblad tried to fix it with new firmware.
Leaf did not want to fix the issue.
A guy on getDPI bought an H4X but had to sell it when he was told that leaf would not update the firmware.
It reasonably understandable for leaf to not want to invest scare resources to updating a back to a camera that you can't simply go out and buy,
but that does put a dent in their so called OPEN PLATFORM.
Well it's the type of marketing BS that one has to put up with in the MFD industry.
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-wtb/35978-fs-new-h4x.html?highlight=h4x (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-wtb/35978-fs-new-h4x.html?highlight=h4x)
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I have an awesome Contax 645 systems. I'm sure you know how sweet the Zeiss lenses are. But recently they start to show some needs for the lubricate and clean-ups. Due to the status of this system, the cost for the clean-ups are horrible. This adds up the motivation to jump the ship.
However, I'm not comfortable with Fujiblad's lenses. How do you compare the two?
The Fujinons are excellent. Designed and built in the same plant as the Fuji gx680 lenses.
That said the Contax lenses are very nice. Most are similar to the Fuji lenses on the Hasselblad.
There is one stand out lens.... the Zeiss or should we say Zeiss-Kyocera
The three best 645 lenses are the Conax Zeiss 120mm macro, the Mamiya 150mm f2.8D and Hsselblad 100mm f2.2
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I tested HC 80mm on H2, the autofocus is very accurate with the spot meter. I can focus right at the eye ball within 0.1mm accuracy,..., in a distance of 3 meters.
However, it's very annoying that the H2/DB combination keeps on complaining "restart back error". I have to take off the back from the body then reattach to get ride of the problem, otherwise it won't reboot once it's power down. I was told this is not a problem particular to that set, it's a common problem. Sounds like a bug. Once the problem shows up, restartig the back will also turn on the cooling fan. ..., sounds like a semiconductor latch-up or something. Very scary.
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However, it's very annoying that the H2/DB combination keeps on complaining "restart back error". I have to take off the back from the body then reattach to get ride of the problem, otherwise it won't reboot once it's power down. I was told this is not a problem particular to that set, it's a common problem. Sounds like a bug. Once the problem shows up, restartig the back will also turn on the cooling fan. ..., sounds like a semiconductor latch-up or something. Very scary.
You shouldn't have to do this. Which version of the H2 firmware are you on?
Also, which back are you using? Given that you mention a coolling fan I assume it is not a Phase One back.
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It's a Hasselblad back. Not Phase.
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The back is HB CF, firmwaire is 211. The H2 firmware is 95.0, 15.5.5
Do I have operational error? what's the correct way?
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I have an awesome Contax 645 systems. I'm sure you know how sweet the Zeiss lenses are. But recently they start to show some needs for the lubricate and clean-ups. Due to the status of this system, the cost for the clean-ups are horrible. This adds up the motivation to jump the ship.
However, I'm not comfortable with Fujiblad's lenses. How do you compare the two?
I don't know where you live but I have had many lenses cleaned by John at Focalpoint
http://www.focalpointlens.com/fp_intro_body.html
excellent job and reasonable prices
Marc
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Thanks for the repair reference.
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talk to your dealer. my dealer eliminated this problem by reloading the software-if you don't have a dealer (which is a mistake IMO) call Hasselblad
Stanley
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talk to your dealer. my dealer eliminated this problem by reloading the software-if you don't have a dealer (which is a mistake IMO) call Hasselblad
Stanley
Alternatively you could try Paul_Claesson_HasselbladUS who is present on this forum.
He might be able to steer you in the right direction.
You camera firmware appears to be OK. It is actually more up-to-date than mine.
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The Fujinons are excellent. Designed and built in the same plant as the Fuji gx680 lenses.
That said the Contax lenses are very nice. Most are similar to the Fuji lenses on the Hasselblad.
There is one stand out lens.... the Zeiss or should we say Zeiss-Kyocera
The three best 645 lenses are the Conax Zeiss 120mm macro, the Mamiya 150mm f2.8D and Hsselblad 100mm f2.2
I think all the Contax 645AF lenses are all rather good, the Apo-Makro Plannar of course is among the best, the 45-90 is also great, image great and its size/balance is great and when shooting 2-3 meters distance, amazingly sharp. I have always enjoy using Contax 645AF although today I use Phase backs on H2/H4X much more often but speak of user experience with Contax 645AF, still no comparison.
In the only two issue with Contax are that the system is no longer professionally serviced, and second that the viewfinder is somewhat dim compares to H system, but otherwise, the Contax lenses are all beautifully made and compact (except the 350/4), I was able to easily put 5 lenses and one body+back in my back with Contax 645 now now only 3 lenses and a body+back for H system.
It is perhaps the best medium format system ever made, let's hope miracle happens that Zeiss put it back to production again.
Pingang
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Stop talking about Contax 645 please. It's almost impossible to find an affordable digital back. Yu are making it even harder. I'm looking toward HB-H.
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I'm sure the old Zeiss lenses for Contax are great, but I suspect the Fuji lenses for Hasselblad would kick sand in their face - particularly the latest iterations. My HC 50II is one of the sharpest lenses I have ever used.
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i know where to get H,V,M,C adapters for really good price ,contact me on kim@fotoman.cc
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H 100mm, 80mm, and 35mm are really excellent. In fact I find now a day almost all modern MF lenses are good. At least they are far more than good enough to me.
But saying H lens can kick sand to Zeiss's face is really a comedy. Sorry, I have closely handled both Zeiss and HB-H.
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H 100mm, 80mm, and 35mm are really excellent. In fact I find now a day almost all modern MF lenses are good. At least they are far more than good enough to me.
But saying H lens can kick sand to Zeiss's face is really a comedy. Sorry, I have closely handled both Zeiss and HB-H.
Here is some info on H and V lenses
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf)
The only real difference with newer "digital" lenses is that they are cutting corners with distortion and CA because they can correct it in post,
but this is only with the very latest lenses. Less expensive to make, lighter and fix it in post.
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Well, the sample lenses in this article indicate that the Zeiss version has better performance in infinity while H version in close up, and my personal observation is, the close up means 3 or 5 feet, maybe.
The other major difference I can see is, the Zeiss version has better flare resistance while H version has more round aperture ghost, ..., more shutter blades.
This doesn't seem a bothering matter to me. That's a nonsense introduced by the bokeh articles. The aperture ghost with soft edge, star radiance, pentagon, or perfect circle all have their charm to me.
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Exactly! I've said the same thing several times. The pentagons just make the images more photogenic. I've been told by a a friend that happens to be an outstanding editorial designer that they add character to the images.
Eduardo
Well, the sample lenses in this article indicate that the Zeiss version has better performance in infinity while H version in close up, and my personal observation is, the close up means 3 or 5 feet, maybe.
The other major difference I can see is, the Zeiss version has better flare resistance while H version has more round aperture ghost, ..., more shutter blades.
This doesn't seem a bothering matter to me. That's a nonsense introduced by the bokeh articles. The aperture ghost with soft edge, star radiance, pentagon, or perfect circle all have their charm to me.
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i have owned a couple of H1 kits, and a couple of contax kits. i copped and changed systems a few times, but i keep coming back to contax.
the pros of hassy is they are cheaper (second hand), easily rented and lower priced used backs and the finders are bright.
but i find them not very nice to use control wise. the finders are bowed, the lenses have a weird blur (an important issue with me as i have a lot of blur in my shots), theres no vertical grip (thats a big deal if you shoot vertically for 12 hour days).
the contax has issues too, but i find these issues easier to live with. the batteries dont last long, the finder is dark and small (especially if you have a cropped digi back) , and some of the accessories are hard to get and expensive.
I have solved two of the contax problems however. first, I use a p65+ and it covers full frame, so this makes the finder way better. I also brought a bill maxwell focusing screen and this has made the finder way brighter, and focusing is far easier.
the best things about the contax is the controls are well laid out and very functional. the lenses do have a nice blur when open, and most of the lenses are extremely sharp.
there are very few contax digital backs used, but lately i have seen a few pop up. a p30 and a p25, and ive heard about a possible p45 for sale.
whats your budget for a back?
paul
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contax has issues? You are talking it light. It has big big issue. If you can't find the supply you want, what kind of issue is that!
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I use Phase backs on both Contax 645AF and H system and have to say there are maori times with problems on H system than on Contax 645AF. Yes, it is a lot older but it just goes on faultlessly. May be it is H system try to do too much digitally - no doubt a more complicate electronics but Contax does everything necessary photographically, Just a reliable system with the only issue of viewfinder being not very bright. The lenses and accessories are in fact cost less than H system still.
I guess the answer for this is there are more supply on H backs than demand while there are more demand on Contax mont than supply!
Pingang
i have owned a couple of H1 kits, and a couple of contax kits. i copped and changed systems a few times, but i keep coming back to contax.
the pros of hassy is they are cheaper (second hand), easily rented and lower priced used backs and the finders are bright.
but i find them not very nice to use control wise. the finders are bowed, the lenses have a weird blur (an important issue with me as i have a lot of blur in my shots), theres no vertical grip (thats a big deal if you shoot vertically for 12 hour days).
the contax has issues too, but i find these issues easier to live with. the batteries dont last long, the finder is dark and small (especially if you have a cropped digi back) , and some of the accessories are hard to get and expensive.
I have solved two of the contax problems however. first, I use a p65+ and it covers full frame, so this makes the finder way better. I also brought a bill maxwell focusing screen and this has made the finder way brighter, and focusing is far easier.
the best things about the contax is the controls are well laid out and very functional. the lenses do have a nice blur when open, and most of the lenses are extremely sharp.
there are very few contax digital backs used, but lately i have seen a few pop up. a p30 and a p25, and ive heard about a possible p45 for sale.
whats your budget for a back?
paul
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There is definitely some true in the supply/demand theory, but I guess it's heavily weighted on the short of supply side, less on the excessive demand side. This is actually more of a complaining issue than a question.
Simple, there are far fewer makers for Contax mount, and photographers see the cameras as money making tools, the absolute IQ is only part of the considerations. The supplier's incentive program can easily win over.
I guess
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DB for H is really easy to find. right now I'm seeing a very reputable site listing Aptus 22MB for $4000, Aptus 75 for $7000, and P45+ for $9000. Nothing for Contax 645.
Another one, an official site for Phase-One pre-owned, now even removes the Pxx+C completely, only leave Pxx+H, Pxx+V, and Pxx+M.
I've talked to them a while ago, the message was, they just sold what was believed the last Phase-one P45/P25 grade Contax mount.
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snip.........photographers see the cameras as money making tools, the absolute IQ is only part of the considerations. The supplier's incentive program can easily win over.
I guess
That's somewhat true, but for most professionals if they so wish they could (and some do) shoot with almost anything, at least on digital and with lower priced dslrs though some people change them out every 2 years of less.
Medium format cameras (cameras not the digital film) we're never designed to be traded in every two years like the current thought of the digital world.
Most Medium format cameras were designed to work for decades. The Contax(s) I use came out of the box with a digital interface, way before most of us thought it would be a completely digital world and they work as well today as the day I bought them.
I've had very few glitches or freezes, especially with the Phase backs and I guess they will run for another 10 years if I so desire and I've shot about a gazillion images with these cameras. If I have any issue with the Contax it's the lenses are sometimes too sharp.
When Contax went belly up, I got a little paranoid and bought about 4 of everything, though have had only one repair which was user error, not the design of the equipment.
When you look at the current and past medium format cameras still in use with digital from new hasselblads, Mamiya 645s even the Pentax they all have their design and roots based in 15 year old film camera design and except for the newest crop of H's, Pentax and Mamiyas all the prior versions accepted film backs.
These images were shot with the Contax 645 and a two different digital backs with continuous light sources and worked fine, no issue. One is 30mpx the other 20 something.
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/sony_lot_hollywood_script2.jpg)
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/sony_lot_hollywood_light_dept2.jpg)
The reason I show these images is to illustrate how so much equipment in the real world is still based in old tech.
These were shot on an LA movie lot and the grip dolly weighs about 900 lbs. It was actually used to move bombs and ballistic material during WW II.
The shot in the lighting dept. shows some Moles that were made before anybody but the some secretive government agency was even thinking about digital capture.
In fact when I work on movie lots I laugh as I think 75% of their equipment and hardware is based on 1940's meat locker technology and movie studios NEVER throw anything away that is still working, or repairable.
The thing is all of it is still used on 100 million dollar productions every week and nobody thinks anything of it.
Just because it's been around a while doesn't mean it doesn't work.
In regards to the Contax, it's more scarce than some of the other brands, but if I had to I could replace every piece of my Contax system, including backs in about two days of searching. It's all still out there and it all still works, sometimes better than the newest.
At the time, with all the arguing going on about Hasselblad closing off their system, the good thing about the Contax is nobody ever said the firmware needed to be updated or Contax changed something that didn't allow the backs to work, because there was no more Contax to change anything. I think this made for a more stable system.
For what it's worth, I think Contax was a camera that all the makers wished would either go away or continue forward. Forward because they could have all concentrated on selling backs, or away because they wouldn't have to worry about building back mounts for it.
FWIW 2 I think the biggest error the back makers did was not making every back interchangeable with every camera and making that a standard from day 1. I know there is something to be said for integrated design (at least that's what we're told), but with digital the tale wags the dog.
It's kind of hard to imagine any analog film being successful if it only worked in one camera body. No film maker would have dreamed of that idea (on a professional level), though digital came out on the market with that thought in mind.
Nobody talks about cameras, they all zoom in and talk about the digital film like that's the only component that matters.
FWIW3. I'm not a camera collector though I have about 6 digital and 6 film cameras that I don't want to use in heavy production as I like to keep them. They don't set on shelves or glass cases, they're still in their travel cases, but I like them and they mean something to me. One of them is one of my Contax.
But, back to the original question. If you buy what you need and make sure it's what you LIKE, in medium format backs and cameras there is no real reason to change anything out for a long time, so finding some dealer incentive that gives you a few thousand in savings really isn't worth it unless it's something you really like using.
Don't discount the "like" part of the equation.
IMO
BC
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Just because it's been around a while doesn't mean it doesn't work.
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But, back to the original question. If you buy what you need and make sure it's what you LIKE, in medium format backs and cameras there is no real reason to change anything out for a long time, so finding some dealer incentive that gives you a few thousand in savings really isn't worth it unless it's something you really like using.
Don't discount the "like" part of the equation.
IMO
BC
Bravo. I couldn't have said it better myself. If it ain't broken, don't fix it ... ;D
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+1. Not sure whether I would be able to find a used Contax back in 2 days though...
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Talking aboutthe integrated back/camera, i really dont know what is that about.
When i had my contax with 22mp digital back, which was stolen in a break-in, i never thought there would be any need that was not integrated. But when i tried the H2 / digital kit, i do. There are many problems, the most annoying one is the " restart back" error. I have to "disintegrate" the back from the "perfectly integrated" H2, then "integrate" it again, and hope the problem goes away. The other problem is the error message saying adapter not found. If that's what means the perfect integration, thanks but no thanks.
The perfect integrated really means they are more sensitive to the other part, and anything coughs, the others get the cold.
i can't agree more on your comments on the old but perfectly working stuffs such as the contax 645.
But more, i envy your pictures. are you sure that's not taken with p&s? I'm sure you'll take p&s just as good as any cameras.
Please post more pictures.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phase-One-P25-Digital-Magazine-Back-for-Contax-645-MINT-IN-CASE-/190714864386?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c677de302
I have no idea who the seller is or anything, just saw the item on ebay :)
very high priced though.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phase-One-P25-Digital-Magazine-Back-for-Contax-645-MINT-IN-CASE-/190714864386?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c677de302
I have no idea who the seller is or anything, just saw the item on ebay :)
very high priced though.
FYI, I purchased an as new Mamiya mount P25+ with less than 300 (yes, three hundred!) shots on it, from a US dealer with 1 year Phase One warranty for nearly $1000 less than that eBay back. So I'd give the dealer network a call first. I know that when I started looking a couple of months ago that there were H mount backs around and the scarce one's were the Mamiya mount. You may be lucky with a Contax mount through the dealers too - even if they don't have it in stock immediately they may find one as trade-in etc via their contacts.
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I am on the hunt for a p25+ mamiya mount and so far I have seen one in england that goes for 6800$ + vat and that is a bit steap I think :(
But I guess these deals have to take time until the right one turns up..
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We had a P25+V w/ 3800 captures go recently for about the price that was just mentioned by Graham. The Pre-Owned market is very tight these days, limited supply. My recommendation is to get in contact with a reseller and let them know what you are looking for so they can keep an eye out for you . There are a lot of preowned backs that we sell that do not hit our listings (https://digitaltransitions.com/product/used-digital-backs) on our site because we have a list of people waiting for specific models an mounts. Just be ready to pull the trigger because they are first come , first serve.
Lance
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It is in the context of the medium format is developed and design in such way that it simply does not work for just snap shooting around, so you arrive at a more controlled quality. The smaller camera, becomes too convenient and in too many people's hand that it is simply waste of battery power - for many, not for all - of course.
BR,
Pingang
Bravo. I couldn't have said it better myself. If it ain't broken, don't fix it ... ;D
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I know a local store who has kind of a formula to decide the used price. They would sell a 22 MP MFDB for about $5000 and may be less. A 39mp however is much more expensive.
I bought from them my later stolen CF 22 for $4500 after tax. The problem is whether you can find one. If you are in a hurry, then some other equation kicks in.
Given that Leaf 22MP new is only ~$8000, a very clean used one should be about 60% of that. Don't buy from Ebay. The price is crazy in most cases, although surprise does exists.
For any used stuffs, I'd check keh.com, adorama.com, bhphoto.com. The price is usually way below ebay.
If Hasselblad H mount works for you, they have very good price stuffs right now.
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Hust in case you are looking for H mount, KEH has Aptus 22mp for $4000 and 33Mp $7000. They had a P25 a few days ago, but seems is gone now.