Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on June 19, 2012, 08:27:15 am
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http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/presskits/windows/videogallery2b.aspx
Towards the end, 1Gb copied over USB3 in 8 seconds, and Lightroom, run on the x86 version.
Edmund
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Oops..deleted.
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Actually,
The next professional workstation.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?81124-HP-820-Tower-RED-EDITION&p=1025022#post1025022
(http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1340058460.jpg)
Apple is for colored Ipods, 10 year olds playing angry birds and your mother to update her facebook page.
IMO
BC
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UnLess you're just kidding, please refrain. We don't need this silliness here.
MICHAEL
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PC related brands (Microsoft, Intel, Nvidia) have always been the standard. Nothing is new with that HP Red endorsed box. It's just put together already as to not scare off those who need everything prepackaged for them (Apple's demographic.)
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UnLess you're just kidding, please refrain. We don't need this silliness here.
MICHAEL
Michael,
I was a computer journalist for 15 years. I reviewed hardware, cameras and software.
Microsoft presented the x86 version of the Surface today, a slate with USB3, a Wacom pen and Multitouch, and demoed it running Lightroom, and specified that it was intended for apps such as Lightroom and Photoshop.
I don't see any silliness here - the iPad is clearly not a professional field conversion and retouch tool, this thing is billed as being one by the world's biggest pro software company.
I do understand that you expect courtesy of posters - I fail to understand why the site admin should flame me for posting a link to an announcement.
Edmund
PS. Maybe I shouldn't be so touchy. It's just the end of the day.
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Agree with Edmund on this one.
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Michael,
I was a computer journalist for 15 years. I reviewed hardware, cameras and software.
Microsoft presented the x86 version of the Surface today, a slate with USB3, a Wacom pen and Multitouch, and demoed it running Lightroom, and specified that it was intended for apps such as Lightroom and Photoshop.
I don't see any silliness here - the iPad is clearly not a professional field conversion and retouch tool, this thing is billed as being one by the world's biggest pro software company.
I do understand that you expect courtesy of posters - I fail to understand why the site admin should flame me for posting a link to an announcement.
Edmund
PS. Maybe I shouldn't be so touchy. It's just the end of the day.
I believe Michael's comment was directed to bcooter's crack about Macs, not your link, FWIW.
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I believe Michael's comment was directed to bcooter's crack about Macs, not your link, FWIW.
I agree - in fact, it didn't even occur to me that it could be otherwise. Michael?
Jeremy
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I didn't find my comment to be inflammatory, (as that wasn't the intent) in fact much less so than the many dozen of editorials I've read on this site downplaying Hasselblad for protecting their brand and mostly limiting their back and camera sales into one platform, or the 15,000 canon vs. medium format vs. Nikon threads that permeate this forum which border on Nascar nation brand worship.
What I meant was going forward it seems Apple has found the professional imaging market a non lucrative endeavor.
Read the Wall Street Journal and see where Apples makes their money.
75% of Apple's financial shares come from consumer I-devices and the newest powerbooks have abandoned firewire.
Where does this leave medium format which is very dependent on firewire tethering? Where does this leave studio's like ours that have over 300 or so terabytes of data based in firewire drives?
Red seems to have found a solution, partnering with promax and HP, (they're not the first) and if you've priced out PC boxes vs. Apple you can see PC boxes offer more specialty configurations for professional imaging than Apple, which is a fairly abrupt about face, given the industry and public's perception that Apple is the creative brand, PC/windows the business brand. Today In reality the perception is 180 vs. the reality.
In fact when it comes to speed, adaptability and no room for error the motion picture industry has much less room for error than the still industry and they went to PC boxes for heavy lifting a decade ago.
Now I do have a dog in this hunt as our studios personally operate over 17 MAC stations and at this stage given the change in FCP, the dead end of apple color and the limitation in apple hardware seems like our options are clear, just as RED's options we're clear.
If anyone reads this is a flame war or something to cause trouble, then then in my view they are reading into something that was not the intent and obviously they not very adept at keeping their ear to the ground and watching the real changes in the professional imaging world.
At least the professional imaging world that turns a profit for professional artists.
IMO
BC
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Edmund, not directed at you at all but at the dig about who Macs are aimed at.
Hope to see you again this year at Photokina.
Michael
As for the Surface(s), I applaud Microsoft for taking on Apple with this. The tech press isn't that impressed yet, but the marketplace will decide.
As for Mac Pros, clearly Apple sees them as a declining market segment. Many, like me, aren't even going to upgrade their desktops. My new MacBook Pro Retina test out as the fastest Mac yet, exception some Xenon server configurations. Attach a good Monitor and a Thunderbolt RAID and it more than meets my needs for stills and video editing.
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Edmund, not directed at you at all but at the dig about who Macs are aimed at.
Hope to see you again this year at Photokina.
Michael
As for the Surface(s), I applaud Microsoft for taking on Apple with this. The tech press isn't that impressed yet, but the marketplace will decide.
Michael,
Sorry, I *was* too touchy. Do hope to see you at PK again this year. Maybe we should all arrange an evening Kölsch meeting?
I like the Surface; The fact that Microsoft is doing their demos with Lightroom is very encouraging. Now that Microsoft have finally discovered the qualities of careful get-it-right-the-first-time design, we might as well give them some positive feedback :)
Edmund
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http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/presskits/windows/videogallery2b.aspx
Towards the end...
Edmund
Thanks for the link and especially for the advice that the interesting bits are towards the end. Watching the whole thing would have been time out of my life that I would have resented losing. My deepest sympathy to the IT journalists, bloggers, etc, who have to sit through this kind of thing to make a living. "Steve Ballmer, Steven Sinofsky and other Microsoft executives" are not great communicators. However, the prospect of a "Tablet" that runs Lightroom is genuinely interesting. I have never been interested in Tablets, and had been planning to buy an Ultrabook, but will hold off for a while to find out more about this product.
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I was pleased to see it had USB host with a standard plug. Unfortunately it is USB2, but this is a step in the right direction. The inability to work with a file system and connect standard storage devices to ipads really limits my ability to use it in the field.
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I hate to say this but this (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/presskits/windows/videogallery2b.aspx) reminds me of the series of Mac Vs PC adds....
13:39 is where it gets interesting....I think MS should not try to be groovy, because it is not in their culture. They should stick to suits and to what they know best, and not try to be Apple...
The product looks promising though...boring and uncool but promising!
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I was pleased to see it had USB host with a standard plug. Unfortunately it is USB2, but this is a step in the right direction. The inability to work with a file system and connect standard storage devices to ipads really limits my ability to use it in the field.
The x86 version is specced with a USB3 host.
Edmund
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Let's hope that reliability is better than some might fear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zxDa3t0fg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zxDa3t0fg)
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The one place where I think both Windows and Mac have equal reliability is during demos :)
And I've been to a lot of Steve Jobs keynotes.
One of the ways to stay awake during Steve's endless self-congratulatory drone was to try and see whether the machine he was firing up had frozen and he was covering up for it. Every machine had a spare sitting next to it.
Edmund
Let's hope that reliability is better than some might fear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zxDa3t0fg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zxDa3t0fg)
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The Surface Pro version (with Intel x86 processor) is a very promising refinement of the Windows tablet PC concept, and a strong contender in the MacBook Air/ultrabook category. I am glad to see Microsoft, with both this and Windows Phone, embracing the advantages of tight integration of hardware and software design. I can see a Surface Pro with docking station as the only computer many people need.
However, the size, weight, ultrabook level pricing of around $1000+, and initial lack of much touch-friendly software all put the Surface Pro in a different category than most of the iPad market. So the big question for me is whether the ARM-based WindowsRT version of the Surface, running only newly written or ported software, not any existing software for Windows 7 or earlier, can develop enough software and accessory support to be viable in the "pad" or "slate" category pioneered by the iPad, as opposed to the "tablet computer" category created by Microsoft a decade ago. Microsoft's goal seems to be that from now on, most Windows software will be written in a way that works with the input device being either only a touch-screen or only a keyboard and trackpad/mouse: let us see how that plays out.
P. S. I just realized that the forthcoming Windows Phone 8 changes to using the same NT kernel for its OS as Windows RT and Windows 8 Pro, and adds support for some progrsmming tools previously available only for regular Windows but not Windows Phone 7. Maybe that will lead to more touch-oriented apps being cross-developed for both Windows phone and Windows pad/tablet devices, and give MS more chance of catching up on mobile app selection. The momentum of using iPhone apps and developers being able to easily adapt them to take advantage of the extra iPad screen space helped to get the iPad market going.
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... but at the dig about who Macs are aimed at.
All I can tell you is that very recently, a few weeks maybe, I'm assisting to a massive switch within the profesion. We know that this has been almost exclusively a Mac world, but wind is starting to blow in another direction.
As I'm one of the very few in Madrid who works on PC for some years, I've been surprised to be asked questions about peecees by profesionals all life Mac users and adicted at the brand wanting to switch to PC. Very specially whith people who are growing in motion, but not only.
One of my biggest boss has started to buy an HP workstation at first to cover compositing and editing tasks and since then, harly touched his Macs if not for mailings.
The very curious thing is that the shift is recent but seems to be massive.
I think Coot is right to say that the Apple's target now has changed to the masses, they do great stuff but when really big power is needed, the path to go IMO are PCs now. Therefore I'm sure we're going to see more and more PCs workstations in the pros studios.
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My computer-sophisticated friends are all talking about building themselves hackintoshes -PCs with Mac systems installed.
Edmund
All I can tell you is that very recently, a few weeks maybe, I'm assisting to a massive switch within the profesion. We know that this has been almost exclusively a Mac world, but wind is starting to blow in another direction.
As I'm one of the very few in Madrid who works on PC for some years, I've been surprised to be asked questions about peecees by profesionals all life Mac users and adicted at the brand wanting to switch to PC. Very specially whith people who are growing in motion, but not only.
One of my biggest boss has started to buy an HP workstation at first to cover compositing and editing tasks and since then, harly touched his Macs if not for mailings.
The very curious thing is that the shift is recent but seems to be massive.
I think Coot is right to say that the Apple's target now has changed to the masses, they do great stuff but when really big power is needed, the path to go IMO are PCs now. Therefore I'm sure we're going to see more and more PCs workstations in the pros studios.
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My computer-sophisticated friends are all talking about building themselves hackintoshes -PCs with Mac systems installed.
I am wondering what software they would want, or need, to run that would work better on a Hackintosh than on a customised PC running Windows 7? How much time do they spend with the OS as their primary object of attention? How much better does cross-platform software run on Mac OS than Windows? A Hackintosh sounds like a half way house that might be best avoided.
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Because I use Macs and PCs everyday I choose cross platform software wherever possible. Photoshop, Lightroom, Phocus, Flexcolor, Firefox, Audacity, Open Office (by whatever name it goes under), iTunes. I don't sit at the keyboard with a stopwatch but the perception is very similar.
What worries me is that interfacing with a Mac seems to be getting harder. Older (SCSI) scanner users have not had a Mac option for some time unless they network an old machine or use a 3rd party interface and I fear that present day firewire camera users might find themselves in the same situation.
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What on earth is "uncool" about a tablet that has an i5 Ivybridge, USB3 and a cover that turns into a full keyboard, a full version OS and the ability to run full versions of Adobe's finest?
Gimme "uncool" over cool any day...Oh..and the Surface will fit in my suit pocket too.
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I am wondering what software they would want, or need, to run that would work better on a Hackintosh than on a customised PC running Windows 7?
there are applications that are not available on PC/Win - so you need somehow run OSX, for example : Aperture, Iridient Rawdeveloper, RPP, ...
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I am wondering what software they would want, or need, to run that would work better on a Hackintosh than on a customised PC running Windows 7? How much time do they spend with the OS as their primary object of attention? How much better does cross-platform software run on Mac OS than Windows? A Hackintosh sounds like a half way house that might be best avoided.
I guess an OS is like a camera, little details and ergonomics are a key element of choice.
I think the bloatware installed by many PC makers has really damaged the rep of Windows ... all those windows which keep popping up asking you to update X, buy Y etc etc.
Indeed, this is one reason why I think Surface is a step forward, because it will for the first time make Microsoft responsible for the user experience on a PC. With Surface, as all components of the package are Microsoft and the sale is owned by Microsoft, they are finally standing up and taking responsibility for all aspects of the user experience -hardware, preloaded software, warranty service, updates, phone support etc.
You know times are tough when software companies start making real products with warranties.
Edmund
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I guess an OS is like a camera, little details and ergonomics are a key element of choice.
I think the bloatware installed by many PC makers has really damaged the rep of Windows ... all those windows which keep popping up asking you to update X, buy Y etc etc.
Indeed, this is one reason why I think Surface is a step forward, because it will for the first time make Microsoft responsible for the user experience on a PC.
+1 to all of that.
For my own part, these days I don't feel a need to choose between Operating Systems. I have a linux machine, a mac and a windows machine. They all work fine, get me to the software I want to run with minimal hassle, all run the same browser, and don't seem to hard to maintain. I don't know any of them very well and don't need to. If I were a more sophisticated user I would be no doubt be more sensitive to the subtle differences.
With many windows machines, the first half an hour certainly needs to go to deleting bloatware, tuning auto update etc - not that hard to do.
I hope Microsoft "gets" your point about taking responsibility for the total user experience. If it does, the high-spec Surface could be a great product.
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What on earth is "uncool" about ...
Maybe nothing, but there are some questions to be answered. After all, Microsoft has been pushing tablet PCs with stylus-operated touch screens for about a decade, without a lot of success. The Surface substantially reduces weight and probably price, but the biggest question is how much software there will be that is usable with touch screen alone, because when the keyboard is needed, you are if anything worse off than with the existing type of Windows tablet PC.
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Starting at 10 THOUSAND DOLLARS?!?! Riiip offff!
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Maybe nothing, but there are some questions to be answered. After all, Microsoft has been pushing tablet PCs with stylusnoperated touch screens for about a decade, without a lot of success. The surface substantially reduced weight and probably price, but the biggest question is how much software there will be that is usable with touch screen alone, because when the keyboard is needed, you oare if anything worse off than with the existing type of Windows tablet PC.
I think Lightroom is quite usable without a keyboard; Photoshop too, probably.
Edmund
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Hi,
I really like that Microsoft has been able to find a way to create a mobile OS that is not just a ripoff of Apple's work. As a creative person, this is proof positive that people can be creative instead of just stealing the ideas of others.
The prototypes of you know who mobile os looked like the Blackberry, final products like iOS.
Surface seem promising, in particular the x86 version that could lead to more powerful tablets.
That does not mean that I believe that it will be a success. I am not sure is most people using tables will be willing to trade portability, but we will see.
In the other hand I found puzzling that some of the same people that find an iMac with a thunderbolt array laking on power find the i5 table adequate.
Best regards,
James
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Well, it"s hard to create a ripoff of Xerox's work that is then not called a ripoff of Apple's work:
- bitmapped display with blitted cursor
- bitmapped fonts
- windows
- pulldown menus
- scrollbars
- onscreen video conferencing
- onscreen gesture recognition
whenever Apple complains of the above they neglect to say that they were invented by Xerox, implemented by Xerox, licensed by Apple and now used to "demonstrate" copying even when Apple has no claim to them. Some days Apple reminds me of that female artist who got prints of Ansel Adams from the Library of Congress, signed them, staged a show, and claimed they were now her original works because after all she had "appropriated" them by signing them. Steve Jobs is a hero, Alan Kay and Doug Engelbart are has-been idiots. The same story holds of Linus Torvalds and the Multics and Unix guys - even I cannot remember their names. Although to be fair Torvalds never claimed he invented anything, but he never went out of his way to hoist the inventors up on the podium, either.
Edmund
Hi,
I really like that Microsoft has been able to find a way to create a mobile OS that is not just a ripoff of Apple's work.
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I think the bloatware installed by many PC makers has really damaged the rep of Windows ... all those windows which keep popping up asking you to update X, buy Y etc etc.
You're right, but this is the beauty of building a PC, or taking your HP/Dell/Lenovo/Sony/whatever PC brand it is, and installing a fresh version of Windows off the shelf. (Apple users will roll their eyes and say "Don't have to do that with a Mac." Well guess what?... I don't care).
It's like night and day. It's CLEAN.
I've fixed many PC problems, and the worst case of bloatware that I've seen on a Windows machine happened to be a Sony.
This Sony PC was taken over by "Sony" software like it was a virus.
There was a whole suite of Sony programs installed (Sony this, Sony that...) that needed to be uninstalled, or disabled at startup, etc. Bastards.
Buy Windows off the shelf and rejuvenate your PC.
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Well, it"s hard to create a ripoff of Xerox's work that is then not called a ripoff of Apple's work:
- bitmapped display with blitted cursor
- bitmapped fonts
- windows
- pulldown menus
- scrollbars
- onscreen video conferencing
- onscreen gesture recognition
whenever Apple complains of the above they neglect to say that they were invented by Xerox, implemented by Xerox, licensed by Apple and now used to "demonstrate" copying even when Apple has no claim to them. Some days Apple reminds me of that female artist who got prints of Ansel Adams from the Library of Congress, signed them, staged a show, and claimed they were now her original works because after all she had "appropriated" them by signing them. Steve Jobs is a hero, Alan Kay and Doug Engelbart are has-been idiots. The same story holds of Linus Torvalds and the Multics and Unix guys - even I cannot remember their names. Although to be fair Torvalds never claimed he invented anything, but he never went out of his way to hoist the inventors up on the podium, either.
Edmund
Well, it"s hard to create a ripoff of Xerox's work that is then not called a ripoff of Apple's work:
- bitmapped display with blitted cursor
- bitmapped fonts
- windows
- pulldown menus
- scrollbars
- onscreen video conferencing
- onscreen gesture recognition
whenever Apple complains of the above they neglect to say that they were invented by Xerox, implemented by Xerox, licensed by Apple and now used to "demonstrate" copying even when Apple has no claim to them. Some days Apple reminds me of that female artist who got prints of Ansel Adams from the Library of Congress, signed them, staged a show, and claimed they were now her original works because after all she had "appropriated" them by signing them. Steve Jobs is a hero, Alan Kay and Doug Engelbart are has-been idiots. The same story holds of Linus Torvalds and the Multics and Unix guys - even I cannot remember their names. Although to be fair Torvalds never claimed he invented anything, but he never went out of his way to hoist the inventors up on the podium, either.
Edmund
Edmund, in my opinion there is no ripoff if the one been ripoff is a willing participant. There were even a stock related exchange.
If I invite someone to my home to learn about baking, and I charge them, it's expected that they will bake something using what they learn. I am aware that Xerox sued Apple about the GUI as connected to the Star, but there were never a conclusion due to the status of limitations.
In the results of Microsoft vs Apple is clear that the general ideas are not protected legally, I believe they should not be morally either. The problem is when a platform is so close it's difficult to distinguish one from the other.
I did not did any reference to personal computers, by the way. I was talking about mobile devices. Also there is a difference between a similar technology ( I say that surface was original, but the underlining technology is the same: Multi touch, gesture based interface), and a photocopy.
I see that you are aware of Linux/GNU evolution. I will say that KDE use to be a ripoff of windows. Gnome was not. That is what I am trying to express.
The legacy of Xerox Parc is amizing by the way. Talking about Steve Jobs here is him saying that he remember OOP from his visit to Xerox, and that ifuenced NeXT too (It's very long, the part is on 3:01:14):
http://vimeo.com/31813340
Finally : I don't represent Apple Computer, never claimed to do. I am not here to defend Apple, promote tier products etc. I am not invested on hurting them either, or any other company by that mater.
I just like original work. Surface show it to be possible.
Best regards,
James
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Buy Windows off the shelf and rejuvenate your PC.
I am curious to know what the advantage is of this over simply deleting the bloatware and removing startup entries etc that you don't want. I don't mean to imply that there is no advantage - just curious about what advantage I would get by paying the not insignificant price of a fresh copy of windows.
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Edmund, in my opinion there is no ripoff if the one been ripoff is a willing participant. There were even a stock related exchange.
If I invite someone to my home to learn about baking, and I charge them, it's expected that they will bake something using what they learn. I am aware that Xerox sued Apple about the GUI as connected to the Star, but there were never a conclusion due to the status of limitations.
In the results of Microsoft vs Apple is clear that the general ideas are not protected legally, I believe they should not be morally either. The problem is when a platform is so close it's difficult to distinguish one from the other.
I did not did any reference to personal computers, by the way. I was talking about mobile devices. Also there is a difference between a similar technology ( I say that surface was original, but the underlining technology is the same: Multi touch, gesture based interface), and a photocopy.
I see that you are aware of Linux/GNU evolution. I will say that KDE use to be a ripoff of windows. Gnome was not. That is what I am trying to express.
The legacy of Xerox Parc is amizing by the way. Talking about Steve Jobs here is him saying that he remember OOP from his visit to Xerox, and that ifuenced NeXT too (It's very long, the part is on 3:01:14):
http://vimeo.com/31813340
Finally : I don't represent Apple Computer, never claimed to do. I am not here to defend Apple, promote tier products etc. I am not invested on hurting them either, or any other company by that mater.
I just like original work. Surface show it to be possible.
Best regards,
James
The problem with Apple was not that they used the stuff licensed from Xerox, it was that they passed off the ideas as their own to the general public, and then built on that by an extremely litigious behavior, suing everyone else so that people kept out of the GUI arena out of sheer fear. I know this now seems improbable to believe, but look at the volume of litigation they have now created in the mobile phone arena.
Edmund