Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: sanfairyanne on June 19, 2012, 04:48:10 am
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My 5D2 is set in Adobe RGB, I shoot RAW then process in Lightroom/CS5. Recently I opened a Zenfolio account to see my pictures online. It was then that I noticed the huge colour difference between my monitor and someone else's. Previously I've only ever looked at them on my own monitor on Flickr.
So I did some research and came to the understanding that I should save my images as Srgb. From what I've read I think there's little doubt that for viewing on the internet - and perhaps most printing - 99% of the time this is the right way.
Trying to correct this colour discrepancy I've done this: I process an image in Lightroom then open it in CS5 and go to SAVE FOR WEB. It's at this point that I convert the file to Srgb and then save it. However when converted the Srgb version has subdued colours. See attachments (first is the Adobe RGB second is the converted to Srgb version
I've also attached two screen grabs from the SAVE FOR WEB options in CS5. I noticed that by saving to Srgb I have the choice either of Jpeg, Gif or Png and the last attached screen grab shows a further option in the SAVE FOR WEB page where I have more choices.
My questions are:
I process the image, get to a stage where I'm happy with it then convert it to Srgb only for the colours to change to an unsatisfactory level. So can I convert it to Srgb before working on it in Lighroom. I think I probably should have set the camera to Srgb to begin with, in fact going to the Canon manual suggests just that.
Also where can I go to read up on these options in CS5's SAVE FOR WEB panel. (last two screen grabs)
Many thanks I've tried to write this in as easy way to follow as I can.
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I added 4 screen grabs but only two came up, here's the Adobe RGB version I mentioned and the other screen grab from the SAVE FOR WEB PAGE ON CS5.
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You have asked a question that does cause a fair bit of confusion at times.
Recent threads have dealt with some aspects of the issues that you are raising.
However, to regroup lets go through some of the basics:
In the 5DII menu you have to decide on which colour space to assign to ones images. The choices are sRGB and Adobe RGB.
My suggestion is to use Adobe RGB if you are shooting RAW.
Although, in camera, the only application of this assignment will be to view previews on the camera's LCD screen.
Once the images are downloaded into Lightroom (your RAW converter of choice) the assigned colour space is ignored.
(This may seem confusing but it is what happens.)
Lightroom uses ProphotoRGB internally that is a very large colour space.
This is what you want to use for editing purposes.
There a couple of things to know once a file is edited.
There is no need to go near Photoshop to create an export for the purposes of Web use.
It is possible in Lr4 to softproof an image using sRGB as the proposed colour space or profile.
(I won't fully explain softproofing in this post.)
This will allow you minimize the changes in the images that you refer to.
(Note that other monitors may not be calibrated correctly so this may account for some of the changes you are seeing on those monitors.)
So unless layers or some other Photoshop only intervention is required then Photoshop is not actually required in your stated workflow.
My guess is that on reading this more issues will come to light that will then need to be subsequently clarified.
I doubt that everything will be clarified by one post.
So feel free to chew on this and digest it and then formulate new questions as required.
From what you have shared already your workflow seems unnecessarily complex but there may be other reasons for this that are not obvious.
I strongly advise you to buy the video tutorial series - Camera to Print and Screen - that is available from this website.
It covers the appropriate workflow for your needs.
Regards
Tony Jay
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Thanks Tony,
I'm all for staying in Lightroom as much as possible, primarily because I'm not so competent with CS5 but I of course want to simplify things
It's good to know that I've probably done the right thing keeping my in camera colour space at Adobe RGB whilst shooting in RAW (I've never used Jpeg).
Although, in camera, the only application of this assignment will be to view previews on the cameras screen.
I understand what you mean, the camera's LCD screen shows a Jpeg preview.
I suppose I should start learning about softproofing.
Any further help would be very much apprciated perhaps someone can recommend a You Tube tutorial they found particularly helpful.
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Look at the tutorial on this website - the recently completed guide to Lr4 for how to softproof in Lr4.
Regards
Tony Jay
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Tony,
I just watched the 10 minute clip and to be honest I'm not convinced to shell out nearly $60. I bought an Adobe ACR tutorial from LL once and barely learnt a thing from it. I found it opened up lots more questions than it answered and seemed. What I'd really prefer is a book that covered L4 and soft proofing. I have Scott Kelby's book on L3, I may well buy his L4 book.
I notice he has a new book on the market (shows a buy on a dirt bike on the cover) Perhaps someone might recommend it. Does it go into Softproofing?
Thanks guys.
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I second the recommendation of the Lightroom 4 tutorials offered here. They are wonderful and very much worth the price of admission in my opinion. But, I understand that some folks are book people and not video people. For those people, I recommend Martin Evening's The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 4 Book.
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My 5D2 is set in Adobe RGB, I shoot RAW then process in Lightroom/CS5. Recently I opened a Zenfolio account to see my pictures online. It was then that I noticed the huge colour difference between my monitor and someone else's. Previously I've only ever looked at them on my own monitor on Flickr.
So I did some research and came to the understanding that I should save my images as Srgb. From what I've read I think there's little doubt that for viewing on the internet - and perhaps most printing - 99% of the time this is the right way.
Trying to correct this colour discrepancy I've done this: I process an image in Lightroom then open it in CS5 and go to SAVE FOR WEB. It's at this point that I convert the file to Srgb and then save it. However when converted the Srgb version has subdued colours. See attachments (first is the Adobe RGB second is the converted to Srgb version
The purpose of color management is to maintain color appearance. Provided that no out of gamut colors are present, an image should look exactly the same in sRGB, Adobe RGB, and ProPhotoRGB. If this is not the case, you should reexamine your workflow. An image in a wider space (Adobe or ProPhoto) will look washed out in a nonmanaged workflow which assumes sRGB
I've also attached two screen grabs from the SAVE FOR WEB options in CS5. I noticed that by saving to Srgb I have the choice either of Jpeg, Gif or Png and the last attached screen grab shows a further option in the SAVE FOR WEB page where I have more choices.
My questions are:
I process the image, get to a stage where I'm happy with it then convert it to Srgb only for the colours to change to an unsatisfactory level. So can I convert it to Srgb before working on it in Lighroom. I think I probably should have set the camera to Srgb to begin with, in fact going to the Canon manual suggests just that.
Also where can I go to read up on these options in CS5's SAVE FOR WEB panel. (last two screen grabs)
GIFs use indexed color and can only show 256 discrete colors (Wikipedia has a good article on GIFs). It is best used to show text, line art, logos, etc and is a poor choice for full color images, where JPEG is a better choice for the web. However, JPEG shows artifacts when used for text and screen captures with text or line art. PNG can either be indexed or full color and is good for text and line art, but the file size will be larger than with JPEG. Again, Wikipedia has a good article.
Color Management (http://www.amazon.com/World-Color-Management-Bruce-Fraser/dp/0201773406) is a good review, but is becoming rather dated. Color Management for Photographers (http://www.amazon.com/Color-Management-Photographers-Techniques-Photoshop/dp/0240806492) by Andrew Rodney is also a good resource.
Regards,
Bill
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I just watched the 10 minute clip and to be honest I'm not convinced to shell out nearly $60. I bought an Adobe ACR tutorial from LL once and barely learnt a thing from it. I found it opened up lots more questions than it answered and seemed. What I'd really prefer is a book that covered L4 and soft proofing. I have Scott Kelby's book on L3, I may well buy his L4 book.
This is a fellow who doesn't believe (understand?) soft proofing, you sure that's a good idea?
If you don't think the LuLa video is worth $60, you might want to check out the superb video tutorials by George Jardine. Here's a free taste of his style (an excellent video on converting color to B&W): http://mulita.com/blog/?p=1244
His style is quite different from Kelby! No fast food fun and jokes, it's all business and zero fat.
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I clicked on the George Jardine link, it appears his videos are Library and Develop based. I believe I need to learn Softproofing.
Perhaps someone can answer this;
If I upload to Flickr via the Lightroom publish feature does Lightoom automatically convert to Srgb?
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I clicked on the George Jardine link, it appears his videos are Library and Develop based. I believe I need to learn Softproofing.
Perhaps someone can answer this;
If I upload to Flickr via the Lightroom publish feature does Lightoom automatically convert to Srgb?
Soft proofing is in Develop & George covers it.
Answer to your question: yes, sRGB.
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Thanks to all, I think I'll get George Jardin's video's after all.
:)
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Is your monitor calibrated and profiled? I mean with a hardware device (Spyder, ColorMunki or whatever)? If not, I'd strongly advise using only sRGB. In fact, Lightroom can give problems with uncalibrated/profiled monitors, or if the monitor profile isn't correct (as it uses several different colour spaces internally).
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It was calibrated, but I didn't do it so I'll get it done professionally. Calibrated an Profiled.
Thanks I'm finally moving forwards.
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In fact, Lightroom can give problems with uncalibrated/profiled monitors, or if the monitor profile isn't correct (as it uses several different colour spaces internally).
I find this statement very interesting and would like to know more. Could you explain this please?
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I agree with you Bryan.
Problem is that one can only give information and guide individuals - ultimately what they believe and do is up to them.
Regards
Tony Jay
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I agree with you Bryan.
Problem is that one can only give information and guide individuals - ultimately what they believe and do is up to them.
Regards
Tony Jay
Yes, you are correct. Some people are in a completely different color space than the rest of us. I hope the poster will enlighten us though. You never know, someone might learn something!
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Sorry I wanted to reply in further detail but was up to my ears in work. I'm quite obviously a novice when it comes to both photography and even more so printing. In fact I've never printed out a shot.
I'm using a MacBook lap top with a measly 14'' screen, clearly not the best choice when assessing an image for large printing on fine art paper.
I was given my laptop and was assured the screen was calibrated, however, I really don't know if this is true.
In fact, Lightroom can give problems with uncalibrated/profiled monitors, or if the monitor profile isn't correct (as it uses several different colour spaces internally).
I too was a bit unsure about this comment from Simon Garrett, I thought Lightroom only used one colour space (pro photo).
Tony, In your first reply you said: Lightroom uses ProphotoRGB internally that is a very large colour space.
This is what you want to use for editing purposes.
So to get back to what's confusing here's my question:
Ok so if I edit an image in Lightroom it's going to be saved in ProphotoRGB but what if it's an HDR.
As an example I want to process an HDR Pano, I shoot the files in RAW with the camera set to Adobe RGB. I import to Lightroom then export to a folder on the desktop, then process the HDR's in Photomatrix, then process the pano' in Photoshop, then re-import to Lightroom. Does my image go back into Lightroom with the Prophoto RGB colour space?
If I can clear this up it will really help.
Many thanks
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In fact, Lightroom can give problems with uncalibrated/profiled monitors, or if the monitor profile isn't correct (as it uses several different colour spaces internally).
I find this statement very interesting and would like to know more. Could you explain this please?
Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB in Develop Module. (Actually, a variant of ProPhoto with linear gamma for editing, but sRGB gamma for the histogram). So in Develop Module, the image displayed on the monitor is in ProPhoto RGB colour space.
Lightroom previews are stored in Adobe RGB colour space. So in Library Module, it's displaying images in Adobe RGB.
Ideally, there needs to to be a correct monitor profile in place. I think (but I'm not sure) that Lightroom assumes an sRGB profile if there isn't a monitor profile for the monitor. However, that's very much second-best. To get accurate colours from Lightroom, it's much better to use a monitor that's calibrated/profiled with a hardware device (Spyder, Colormunki, EyeOne, Huey etc).
Also, it appears that Lightroom is more fussy about profiles than some programs. I've read somewhere (but can't find an authoritative link) that if the histogram displayed in Lightroom is brown (rather than grey with coloured peaks) then it's saying the monitor profile is corrupt. In particular, Lightroom won't work with icc v4 profiles. Most more modern profiling/calibration software gives you the choice of v2 or v4 profiles: you need to choose v2 for Lightroom (if you don't get the choice, then it's probably v2).
PS - If there is a correct monitor profile in place, then monitor colour management with Lightroom just works. There are no adjustments or settings in LR you can get wrong. In Photoshop, by contrast, there are lots of ways of screwing up colour settings, which means that if colours in LR don't look the same as PS or another program, then in my experience it's usually LR that's right and the other program that's wrong.
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My information is that Lr will open the HDR image in ProphotoRGB.
It is true that the actual colours displayed will not exceed AdobeRGB until further editing occurs that may pull colours beyond the AdobeRGB colour space.
Assigning a "sticky" colour space will only occur on export from Lr - the defaults are sRGB, AdobeRGB, and ProphotoRGB.
BTW I can only re-iterate my suggestion that you purchase the tutorial "Camera to Print and Screen".
This tutorial covers the entire workflow in major depth.
Many of the most enthusiastic buyers are thorough professionals yet these individuals admit that they still learn things from this tutorial.
It is a very worthwhile primer that covers all your current questions including many that you have not thought of yet.
You may need to take our word for this that the money you fork over will not be wasted.
Another BTW: even if your monitor was calibrated at one point in time it will NOT stay that way. ALL monitors require regular calibration every couple of weeks. I suggest that you either research the colour management threads for questions regarding recommendations about profiling equipment or post a new question on the forum about this issue. (I use Spyder equipment but I would prefer that you seek broader opinions since there are several other proprietary options to consider.)
Please feel free to continue asking questions and clarifying issues as you work through your workflow.
Regards
Tony Jay
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Thank you Simon and Tony, you're advice is most appreciated, I'm will get the tutorial ASAP. I'm in a manic rush with work but will no doubt want to come back and ask more questions it's great to have your help.
Regards Andrew
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Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB in Develop Module. (Actually, a variant of ProPhoto with linear gamma for editing, but sRGB gamma for the histogram). So in Develop Module, the image displayed on the monitor is in ProPhoto RGB colour space.
The processing is ProPhoto primaries with a 1.0 TRC ‘gamma’ but what is previewed is Adobe RGB (1998). The processing in all modules is again this variant of ProPhoto. Untagged rendered images are assumed to be in sRGB.
The key to getting everything in Photoshop to sync up with what LR feeds it is simply having the color policies set to preserve.
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The processing is ProPhoto primaries with a 1.0 TRC ‘gamma’ but what is previewed is Adobe RGB (1998). The processing in all modules is again this variant of ProPhoto.
In Develop Module, what is displayed appears to be ProPhoto RGB, not Adobe RGB. I have a wide-gamut monitor which is a bit wider than Adobe RGB, so I can see that quite clearly.
The previews, used in Library and elsewhere (but not in Develop Module), are Adobe RGB. I assume that's what you meant?
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Previews are Adobe RGB:
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/lightroom/using/WS268F3399-80B2-4169-A598-04C7F769FFA0.html
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Previews are Adobe RGB:
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/lightroom/using/WS268F3399-80B2-4169-A598-04C7F769FFA0.html
Curious. That link says: "the Develop module also displays photos in the Adobe RGB color space", but I don't believe it's doing that on my machine! I've created some colour patches in ProPhoto RGB with pure primary colours. That is Red: R=100%, G=0%, B=0% etc. On my wide-gamut monitor which is a bit wider than Adobe RGB, these patches appear markedly more saturated in Develop Module than in Library. By contrast, the same patches with pure colours in Adobe RGB look the same in Develop and Library. I think the Develop Module doesn't display the Adobe RGB previews, but displays directly the ProPhoto image. I think that help file is probably not correct. I know I've read before that Develop displays ProPhoto RGB, and I'll try to track down a link.
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Curious. That link says: "the Develop module also displays photos in the Adobe RGB color space", but I don't believe it's doing that on my machine!
Well your machine is therefore unique <g>.
I know I've read before that Develop displays ProPhoto RGB, and I'll try to track down a link.
That is incorrect but sure, let’s see where that came from. Now way back in say 2008 (around LR2), there was a time when the previews may have been in ProPhoto, no longer.
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Well your machine is therefore unique <g>.
That is incorrect but sure, let’s see where that came from. Now way back in say 2008 (around LR2), there was a time when the previews may have been in ProPhoto, no longer.
I've thought about it some more and re-read your post, and I think we're talking at cross purposes.
Previews are Adobe RGB, no argument. That's because they're stored in jpeg format, and using a very wide colour space in 8-bit data isn't a good idea (you get large tonal steps).
However, in Develop Module, LR isn't using the previews. It's displaying the image data that it's editing, rendered from the ProPhoto RGB image data in real time. This is why there are sometimes differences between what's displayed in develop module and library. For example in LR3, sharpening and noise reduction were not always shown in develop module except at 1:1 zoom. This was to save processing time. In library module, processing time isn't an issue as what is being displayed is a pre-prepared preview.
Or are you saying that in Develop Module, LR makes takes each edit you do, re-renders the image and updates the preview in real time each time you make any adjustment? After each edit or movement of a slider, it converts the entire image to Adobe RGB, converts to jpeg, stores the preview, converts it back from jpeg, and colour-manages the preview to thedisplay? Wouldn't it be simpler to simply colour-manage the ProPhoto image to the display? And then update the preview only once, next time you access it in Library Module?
I think the latter is what happens.
Anyway, I've launched a thread in http://forums.adobe.com/community/lightroom (http://forums.adobe.com/community/lightroom) in the hope that someone from Adobe might settle the question.
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Previews are Adobe RGB, no argument. That's because they're stored in jpeg format, and using a very wide colour space in 8-bit data isn't a good idea (you get large tonal steps).
Correct and the reason why ProPhoto isn’t used any more.
Or are you saying that in Develop Module, LR makes takes each edit you do, re-renders the image and updates the preview in real time each time you make any adjustment?
As opposed to doing nothing? Not updating? Yes, it is updating each time you do something or this would be a difficult way to edit images <g>.
After each edit or movement of a slider, it converts the entire image to Adobe RGB, converts to jpeg, stores the preview, converts it back from jpeg, and colour-manages the preview to thedisplay? Wouldn't it be simpler to simply colour-manage the ProPhoto image to the display? And then update the preview only once, next time you access it in Library Module?
You’d have to get an Adobe engineer to comment on that simplicity issue. But it seems pretty clear thus far that the previews in Develop are Adobe RGB (1998) and I have to assume that yes, they are shown to you (or why have it?).
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I'm obviously not making myself clear, sorry about that.
Previews are Adobe RGB, no argument. Previews are created when you first view an image in Library Module (or first time after the image has been edited in Develop Module). They are cached and stored in Lightroom's preview cache.
But I don't think they are used to display the image in Develop Module. Develop Module (I think) renders the image from the ProPhoto RGB working space image (you agree that Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB as its working space?).
That's why I don't think LR needs to update the previews after each edit operation. Because it's not using them at that point. It doesn't need the preview until next time you go to Library Module (or any module other than Develop). In Develop Module it updates the display in real time, obviously, but not the preview. I think it's rendering the ProPhoto RGB working space image data directly to the display (using colour management, obviously, mapping to the monitor colour space by means of the image profile and monitor profile in the usual way).
So:
Library Module (and other modules except Develop): LR renders the cached Adobe RGB jpeg preview image.
Develop Module: LR renders directly from the ProPhoto RGB image data.
You may not agree with me, but I hope I'm making myself clear. And I'll be quick to own up to my error if anyone from Adobe tells me so. Or if you can explain why the image rendered in Develop Module is visibly different to the image rendered in Library Loupe view, if they're both using the same preview image!
I'm trying to find references about the differences in rendering between Develop and Library modules. I've found quite a number discussing that the image as rendered in Develop isn't always the same as the image rendered in Library. I infer from this that Develop doesn't simply render the preview, or the image would look the same. See for example: http://forums.adobe.com/message/3498280#3498280 (http://forums.adobe.com/message/3498280#3498280), http://forums.adobe.com/thread/889490?tstart=30 (http://forums.adobe.com/thread/889490?tstart=30).
PS - edited to add:
To illustrate what I mean: here are two screen captures of 100% saturated colours in a ProPhoto RGB image. The first is a screen shot of the view in Develop Module, the second is the view in Library Module. Obviously the colour spaces are mangled in the screen capture, but the point is: the images are different. The screen shot in Develop Module has more saturated colours, which you'd expect if Develop Module is displaying in ProPhoto RGB while the Library Module is displaying in Adobe RGB (the preview image). And, of course, the monitor has to have a colour space wider than Adobe RGB, otherwise you wouldn't see the difference.
http://www.simongarrett.co.uk/CaptureProPhotoDevelop.JPG (http://www.simongarrett.co.uk/CaptureProPhotoDevelop.JPG)
http://www.simongarrett.co.uk/CaptureProPhotoLibrary.JPG (http://www.simongarrett.co.uk/CaptureProPhotoLibrary.JPG)
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But I don't think they are used to display the image in Develop Module. Develop Module (I think) renders the image from the ProPhoto RGB working space image (you agree that Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB as its working space?).
Generally it renders from raw data (which has no defined color space) and certainly isn’t ProPhoto RGB. Sometimes it renders from sRGB or whatever is the original data color space. That the processing data path uses ProPhoto with 1.0 TRC is one thing. That the color space of what it shows you is Adobe RGB (1998) as specified in the newer Adobe doc (and info I have from Adobe) is another thing. On top of all that, the values and histogram are clearly not ProPhoto RGB unless you invoke soft proofing and select that as an option. The quality of the preview you see in Develop is absolutely different in how it is produced and shown to you compared to other modules, but the question is, what is the color space of that data? Unless the engineers posting to me have changed something, in LR4 it is Adobe RGB (and has been that way for awhile).
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Andrew, thank you for clarifying and defining the various shades of grey (pun intended) in the world of how Lightroom uses and renders the various colour spaces in its domain.
Hopefuly that dizzy feeling will now abate.
Regards
Tony Jay
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...but the question is, what is the color space of that data? Unless the engineers posting to me have changed something, in LR4 it is Adobe RGB (and has been that way for awhile).
I don't think that's correct for Develop Module, and I can demonstrate on my monitor that Develop and Library module are probably not using the same colour space. However, we've done this to death both here and on the Adobe forum so let's agree to differ!
With any luck, someone from Adobe will post there and confirm which of us is right.
Best regards,
Simon Garrett.