Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Camera Raw Q&A => Topic started by: bjanes on May 30, 2012, 10:50:20 am
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With previous versions (PV2010 and earlier) of ACR one could set the highlights by holding down the ALT key and adjusting the exposure slider until the screen preview showed no clipping. With PV2012 auto white point has been introduced and the preview shows no clipping even though the raw file is massively clipped.
Here is an example. With this image the ACR histogram shows clipping of the red and green channels.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-6dksTQ3/0/O/09ScrCap.png)
This is confirmed by looking at the histogram of the raw file in Rawdigger.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-bQ4TvNN/0/O/CBG0621080009-Full-4284x2844.png)
However, using the Alt + exposure, white, or highlight slider shows no no significant clipping.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-59NMmP5/0/O/09ScrCapAlt.png)
ACR really should incorporate a raw histogram or some other means of evaluating clipping in the raw file so that one can easily determine if ETTR has been carried too far.
Regards,
Bill
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The Exposure control in PV 2012 should not be used to set the highlights. That's a mistake -- a carryover method from PV 2003/2010 which should be abandoned for PV 2012.
To set the highlight/white clipping point in PV 2012, you need to use the Whites slider. You can use Alt/Option+Whites to get the visualization of where clipping happens.
The ACR histogram you show in your top screenshot does not actually show clipping of the red/green channels. The histogram, which shows rendered output (not input), is very close to clipping, but not exactly clipping. There is a very small "toe" to the right. So, the values are actually just shy of clipping.
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The Exposure control in PV 2012 should not be used to set the highlights. That's a mistake -- a carryover method from PV 2003/2010 which should be abandoned for PV 2012.
To set the highlight/white clipping point in PV 2012, you need to use the Whites slider. You can use Alt/Option+Whites to get the visualization of where clipping happens.
The ACR histogram you show in your top screenshot does not actually show clipping of the red/green channels. The histogram, which shows rendered output (not input), is very close to clipping, but not exactly clipping. There is a very small "toe" to the right. So, the values are actually just shy of clipping.
Eric,
Thanks for your observations. Since the green and red channels are clipped in the raw file the image is overexposed, and the overexposure is about 0.3 EV as judged by an exposure of 0.3 EV less where the green channels are just short of clipping. My problem is that the automatic white point setting in PV2012 gives no indication of clipping in the raw file. For practitioners of ETTR it is important to know when clipping in the raw file has occurred and it would be helpful to have a raw histogram so that one would know when the raw channels are clipped.
Since the image is overexposed by 0.3 EV, all tones are shifted to the right. Setting the white point with the white slider would move the white point but the other tones would still be too high. I would think that one should use -0.3 EV exposure in this case. However, this is complicated by the hot tone curve that PV2012 uses for my Nikon D3 with the Adobe Standard profile. A gray card exposure gives a 12 bit raw value of 504, which corresponds to a gamma 2.2 value of 98. This is what is expected, since the camera allows 0.5 EV of highlight headroom. However, rendering into Adobe RGB gives a pixel value of 162. Therefore, one would have to use a negative exposure value of less than -0.3 EV.
Since the automatic white point rendering in PV2012 results in no clipping, the alt+white or alt+exposure preview is of no use in adjusting the exposure. I understand that one should set the midtones with exposure with PV2012 and then the white point. How would you suggest proceeding with PV2012?
Regards,
Bill
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Use Whites to set the white point then use the other controls to adjust the rest of the tones. It's a different approach from previous versions but useless it's not.
If you don't like the tone curve that Adobe has built into its profile, then it seems the simple answer is to create your own.
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Use Whites to set the white point then use the other controls to adjust the rest of the tones. It's a different approach from previous versions but useless it's not.
If you don't like the tone curve that Adobe has built into its profile, then it seems the simple answer is to create your own.
That is not the best approach. I would recommend setting the mid-tones with exposure first. Exposure affects the whole image. If you use other adjustments first, then you will likely have to revise them after adjusting exposure. Charles Cramer (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/techniques/tonal_adjustments_in_the_age_of_lightroom_4.shtml) agrees.
As Eric Chan pointed out previously, the alt+exposure method is not appropriate for setting the highlights with PV2012. The alt+white does work does work and I should revise my original statement. The question of baseline exposure offsets has been previously discussed. Unless one uses a special program to look at the raw file, it is difficult to determine what offset one should use. IMHO 18% saturation in the raw file should yield a rendered pixel value of 100 in an 1.8 gamma space such as ProPhotoRGB. With my camera an exposure adjustment of -0.8 EV is necessary. To the uninitiated, this leads to complaints that the camera "overexposes".
Bill
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I wasn't suggesting an order of operations. Merely that the Exposure slider works differently with the 2012 PV from 2010/2003. Whatever order you decide to use them in, the mindset needs to change in terms of what the various adjustments do to the image. You were trying to use the wrong tool for the job you wanted to do. That's the point. I could have said 'and' rather than 'then' which would have perhaps been clearer. But I didn't. Oh well.
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... You were trying to use the wrong tool for the job you wanted to do. That's the point.
So which tool would we have to use to detect true-Raw-clipping by means of ACR ?
for example in order to determine if ETTR has been driven a bit too far.
THAT was the point here.
Peter
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So which tool would we have to use to detect true-Raw-clipping by means of ACR ?
Detect or correct? There’s a difference. Exposure might allow you to detect clipping but what Eric and others are saying is it is the wrong tool to alter said clipping. That is the job of the White slider in PV2012.
If you can pony up a mere $25 for George Jardine’s new video’s on LR4 and PV2012, video #4 is worth the price of admission alone in seeing how all the new tools interact.
http://mulita.com/blog/?page_id=724
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Peter, the histogram. And the clipping tools that are provided in LR/ACR. Why wouldn't those be what should be used?
Eric notes that the histogram shows the rendered output rather than the raw input but it really shouldn't make a difference. Whether the histogram shows absolutely raw, unaltered data or data that's adjusted based on the gamma encoding of a particular profile and the tone curve that Adobe puts into the camera profiles, you're still looking for clipping. The highlight protection that's now embedded in the 2012PV takes care of some of the 'apparent' clipping that ETTR may show. So all that need be done is use the tools available to adjust for any additional apparent clipping. Turn on the highlight clipping warning on the histogram. It will show the same thing as using Alt/Opt. Using Alt/Opt on any of the sliders will show the apparent clipping depending on which end of the image you're looking at. Exposure/Whites/Highlights will show it at the top end. Shadows/Blacks will show it at the bottom end. Same as the clipping warnings being turned on in the histogram. It's a matter of what tool should be used to correct it.
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The highlight protection that's now embedded in the 2012PV takes care of some of the 'apparent' clipping that ETTR may show. So all that need be done is use the tools available to adjust for any additional apparent clipping. Turn on the highlight clipping warning on the histogram. It will show the same thing as using Alt/Opt. Using Alt/Opt on any of the sliders will show the apparent clipping depending on which end of the image you're looking at. Exposure/Whites/Highlights will show it at the top end. Shadows/Blacks will show it at the bottom end. Same as the clipping warnings being turned on in the histogram. It's a matter of what tool should be used to correct it.
I did some tests with a Stouffer wedge overexposed by 2/3 EV as judged by examining the raw files with Rawdigger. The green channels of the properly exposed shots were just short of clipping and the overexposed shot received 2/3 EV more exposure. Opening the raw file in ACR 7.1 with PV2012 and the highlight clipping indicator enabled showed that that step one was clipped. Step 2 appeared intact rather than blown, likely because of the highlight protection. The Alt+exp method showed the same results. The steps of the wedge are in 0.3 EV decrements. Step 8 corresponds to mid-gray which should have a pixel value of 100 in ProPhotoRGB. With the ACR defaults, mid gray is far to light as shown.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-38Bk9fW/0/O/03ScrCap2.png)
Note that white balance is off as indicated by the spikes of each step are out of alignment. Performing white balance with the eyedropper changes the clipping indicator, and no clipping is now apparent. The same applies to the Alt+white method. I think this is a bug and hope Eric is following this thread. In this situation, the clipping indicator and Alt+Exposure methods fail.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-VzKpLN8/0/O/03ScrCap1.png)
Correction for the clipped highlights depends on the image. If the shot is overexposed by 0.67 EV, all tones are lightened by this amount. One should use the exposure control to decrease exposure by the same amount. This provides a linear correction except for the highlights, which are afforded highlight protection. The decreased exposure darkens the highlights and a positive Whites adjustment is then needed. If one attempts to remove the clipping with the Whites control, the midtones are left too light. With this image a negative Whites adjustment of -37 is needed. To reproduce the appearance of the wedge, it is best first to set the midtones with exposure and then the white point.
Shown below is a graph of exposure adjustments. The highlights are rolled off smoothly to afford highlight protection and the midtones and shadows are decreased linearly as expected.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-9b2vW8c/0/O/03Exp.png)
The whites control affects the near whites and has a relatively limited range.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-RWshCFk/0/O/03Whites.png)
If you want to determine if ETTR is carried out too far, it is best to look directly at the raw file with Rawdigger or a similar tool. The clipping indicator or Alt+exposure gives a reasonable result if the white balance bug is avoided.
If one is dealing with a high dynamic range subject and the midtones of the image are properly exposed but the highlights are blown, one should use the Whites control to bring the highlights down and leave exposure unchanged.
Bill
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Detect or correct? There’s a difference. Exposure might allow you to detect clipping but what Eric and others are saying is it is the wrong tool to alter said clipping. That is the job of the White slider in PV2012.
This is not necessarily true. Clipping due to global overexposure is best dealt with the Exposure control. See my post below. Eric has confirmed this in a previous exchange involving PV2010 and the same principle applies to PVw2012.
Bill
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Clipping due to global overexposure is best dealt with the Exposure control. Eric has confirmed this in a previous exchange involving PV2010 and the same principle applies to PVw2012.
Bill
No, it doesn't. Eric has confirmed this. The article you linked previously is in conflict with the portion I've bolded above. The 2012 PV requires a different approach. It's true that the Exposure control is a linear adjustment but it's more concentrated in the midtones. That's what the article you linked earlier confirms. Your graph confirms the same thing. Your statement that it's best to set the white point then make an exposure adjustment conflicts with a post you made in this thread previously and the article you linked earlier.
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No, it doesn't. Eric has confirmed this. The article you linked previously is in conflict with the portion I've bolded above. The 2012 PV requires a different approach.
That’s my reading of Eric’s post (and George Jardine’s fine video’s on PV2012).
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No, it doesn't. Eric has confirmed this. The article you linked previously is in conflict with the portion I've bolded above. The 2012 PV requires a different approach. It's true that the Exposure control is a linear adjustment but it's more concentrated in the midtones. That's what the article you linked earlier confirms. Your graph confirms the same thing. Your statement that it's best to set the white point then make an exposure adjustment conflicts with a post you made in this thread previously and the article you linked earlier.
If you were able to read the graph I posted regarding the behavior of Exposure in PV2012 you would see that the adjustment is not concentrated in the midtones but rather is linear except for the highlights which are rolled off gently rather than abruptly clipped. Exposure is used to set the midtones, but the effect is not concentrated in the midtones as you suggest. PV2012 requires a different approach for setting the white point, since exposure rolls off rather than clipping the highlights as the graph shows. What is different between PV2010 and PV2012 is that exposure can no longer be used to set the white point since it does not clip. It is still the tool of choice to correct global overexposure. How would you correct for 2/3 EV overexposure?
Where did I say to set the white point and then adjust exposure? It is you who is inconsistent.
Bob:
"Use Whites to set the white point then use the other controls to adjust the rest of the tones. It's a different approach from previous versions but useless it's not."
Bill:
"That is not the best approach. I would recommend setting the mid-tones with exposure first. Exposure affects the whole image. If you use other adjustments first, then you will likely have to revise them after adjusting exposure. Charles Cramer agrees. "
"To reproduce the appearance of the wedge, it is best first to set the midtones with exposure and then the white point."
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OK, I'm done. You've gone off into ad hominem-land yet again.
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While I appreciate the improvements to content-aware adjustments (highlight/shadow recovery), it seems to me like the controls in PV 2012 are actually less convenient to use if you knew what you were doing with the old process...
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So which tool would we have to use to detect true-Raw-clipping by means of ACR ?
for example in order to determine if ETTR has been driven a bit too far.
Detect or correct?
So far I was referring to "detect" only.
Just think about a series of EV-bracketed camera-exposures.
Which one is the correctly ETTR’d shot and which one already goes too far by clipping Raw channels ?
Peter
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If you were able to read the graph I posted regarding the behavior of Exposure in PV2012 you would see that the adjustment is not concentrated in the midtones but rather is linear except for the highlights which are rolled off gently rather than abruptly clipped. Exposure is used to set the midtones, but the effect is not concentrated in the midtones as you suggest.
To some degree yes.
Plus Exposure moves everything up (Histogram to the right), and expands shadows (more contrast) and compresses (highlights less contrast). Exposure flattens (less contrast) and results in less saturation of highlight areas. IOW, there is more to all this than just moving the tones in one direction and they are not moved the same so I’m not sure about the use of linearity above. Yes, there is a roll off of highlights and a compression of contrast. Exposure isn't useful for flat and what appears as under exposed images. The result is just a brighter but flat image. In fact, Exposure flattens the highlights more.
Applying Exposure to a 21 step wedge as George shows in his video is quite useful. Here’s one I mocked up.
(http://digitaldog.net/files/LR4Exposure.jpg)
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OK, I'm done. You've gone off into ad hominem-land yet again.
ad hominem, really? My reply was based on logic and experimental data in so far as possible. However, it was necessary to point out that you did not know how to interpret a simple graph where the exposure curves are parallel except for the highlights. Also I thought I should point out that you misquoted me. If you have nothing further to contribute, it is best to withdraw from the discussion.
Bill
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To some degree yes.
Plus Exposure moves everything up (Histogram to the right), and expands shadows (more contrast) and compresses (highlights less contrast). Exposure flattens (less contrast) and results in less saturation of highlight areas. IOW, there is more to all this than just moving the tones in one direction and they are not moved the same so I’m not sure about the use of linearity above. Yes, there is a roll off of highlights and a compression of contrast. Exposure isn't useful for flat and what appears as under exposed images. The result is just a brighter but flat image. In fact, Exposure flattens the highlights more.
Applying Exposure to a 21 step wedge as George shows in his video is quite useful. Here’s one I mocked up.
Yes, evaluation of a step wedge is quite useful. I used a 41 step wedge but evaluated only 30 steps. One has to be careful about evaluating expansion and compression of tones with the ACR/LR histograms since AFAIK the x-axis is linear and represents values in a gamma encoded space. With a log base 2 x-axis the steps are uniform and express f/stops as shown in this histogram:
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-t2Sxwgh/0/O/05EVHistogram.png)
In a gamma 2.2 histogram (the gamma used for LR histograms), the dark tones appear compressed and the lighter tones appear expanded as shown in these histograms from Iris:
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-2B2QH4B/0/O/05IrisHistograms.png)
If one applies positive exposure in ACR/LR, the darker tones are moved to the right where they appear to be expanded because of the gamma encoding. To evaluate compression and expansion of tones one should use a log histogram. Guillermo Luijk's Histogrammar (http://www.guillermoluijk.com/tutorial/histogrammar/index_en.htm) is one such utility that works with gamma encoded files.
Similar information can be obtained by examining the characteristic curve of the rendering with Imatest. Step 8 represents the mid gray and an exposure of -1.65 EV is necessary to place mid gray at a pixel value of 98 in ProPhotoRGB as shown here:
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-NgWv84F/0/O/ACRScrCap07.png)
Here are the results of such an analysis with various exposure adjustments in ACR 7.01 using PV2012. The curve for the nominal -1.65 EV exposure is linear until about 1.5 stops from saturation, at which point highlight compression is appied using a sigmoidal contrast curve . If one applies a higher exposure value, the highlights are smoothly rolled off as Eric has stated in his posts. The curves are parallel at lower exposure values, showing that the response is linear (the tones are simply lifted by a uniform amount) and there is no shadow expansion. The shadows appear expanded in the linear histogram since they are moved to an area of the histogram where equal steps are farther apart.
I evaluated another image (03) which is overexposed by 0.67 EV. Using an exposure of -2.30, recovery is successful and the curve is superimposed on the normally exposed image, showing that negative exposure is the proper tool for dealing with globally overexposed images.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-f3498QH/0/O/ExposurePV2012.png)
Regards,
Bill
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I'm not in total agreement that a stouffer step wedge is very useful for assessing the performance of digital editing tools in a way that's functional for photographers. It's interesting and enlightening and does allow an understanding of what is happening for making informed edits.
I used a step wedge in my darkroom days as a prepress technician and it was very useful for getting consistent results cranking out line conversions of silver halide B&W print for reproduction on a commercial press under controlled lighting conditions and exposures. The characteristic of the performance of this wedge subjected to chemical development was well established and made quite familiar.
Using this test chart to characterize and make familiar the behavior of ACR/LR tools is pretty much useless for photographers who don't shoot under controlled conditions as well as add their own variation viewing and judging the appearance through emotionally driven edits.
IOW I don't think anything needs to be fixed. From what I gather from your Charles Cramer link and what's been discussed here, Adobe engineers have made it clear that they've made it a lot more easier to SEE every element of useable detail in a Raw capture and have given adequate tools to apply our own tone mapping of those details.
You can't edit what you can't see. Adobe has expanded the dynamics of Raw capture with Process 2012 so you can see to edit. They just reorganized the flow and behavior of the tools to make it more logical and intuitive.
Just wish I didn't have to fork over an additional $200 to my $133 upgrade to CS5 from CS3 now that that function is now available that wasn't in previous versions.
And BTW who the heck needs to ETTR a scene shot in broad daylight? ETTR is only useful to expose in such a way to reduce the level of noise to usable signal. The noise reduction improvements and expanded dynamics in CS6 pretty much makes ETTR useless and pointless.
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If one applies positive exposure in ACR/LR, the darker tones are moved to the right where they appear to be expanded because of the gamma encoding. To evaluate compression and expansion of tones one should use a log histogram...
Bill,
Let’s keep in mind that linear-scaling and gamma-encoding are commutative operations, means that the sequence can be essentially exchanged, without changing the result:
(a x rgb)^(1/g) = a’ x rgb^(1/g)
with a= scaling factor, rgb= RGB/255 for 8 bit, g= gamma e.g. 1.8 or 2.2, and a’= a^(1/g).
If one applies any +exposure as represented by a straight-line w/slope > 1 onto linear data, it is still a straight-line when applying it alternatively onto gamma-encoded data (different value of the multiplier though).
Contrast is homogenously increased, numerically in terms of RGB ratios, as well as perceptually, more or less (differences with regard to perception would certainly be worthwhile a different discussion). In a first order, the distribution of gamma-encoded data is more in line with perception than linear data for example. Perceived mid gray is found somewhere around the middle of a gamma-encoded tonal scale.
Needless to mention that gamma as such remains invisible in a color-managed environment (convert-to does not change the image appearance on screen). It is just the distribution of gamma-encoded data, the numbers as well as corresponding curves and histograms which can be useful while allowing a a kind of intuitive understanding. Whereas double-log is probably more for my brighter moments /:)
Kind regards,
Peter
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Bill,
Let’s keep in mind that linear-scaling and gamma-encoding are commutative operations, means that the sequence can be essentially exchanged, without changing the result:
(a x rgb)^(1/g) = a’ x rgb^(1/g)
with a= scaling factor, rgb= RGB/255 for 8 bit, g= gamma e.g. 1.8 or 2.2, and a’= a^(1/g).
If one applies any +exposure as represented by a straight-line w/slope > 1 onto linear data, it is still a straight-line when applying it alternatively onto gamma-encoded data (different value of the multiplier though).
Contrast is homogenously increased, numerically in terms of RGB ratios, as well as perceptually, more or less (differences with regard to perception would certainly be worthwhile a different discussion). In a first order, the distribution of gamma-encoded data is more in line with perception than linear data for example. Perceived mid gray is found somewhere around the middle of a gamma-encoded tonal scale.
Needless to mention that gamma as such remains invisible in a color-managed environment (convert-to does not change the image appearance on screen). It is just the distribution of gamma-encoded data, the numbers as well as corresponding curves and histograms which can be useful while allowing a a kind of intuitive understanding. Whereas double-log is probably more for my brighter moments /:)
Kind regards,
Peter
Peter,
I'm not sure that I understand your point. The exposure control in PV2012 is not linear in the highlights, so increasing exposure will result in tonal compression when the highlights are rolled off. Log-Log is customarily used for characteristic curves because it linearizes gamma encoded images. For example, here are the values of the Stouffer wedge for gamma 1.0 and 2.2 with linear axes:
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-ZMLth2Z/1/O/LinearAxes.png)
And with log-log:
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-wGGC8Fr/0/O/LogLogAxes.png)
The reason for gamma encoding of ones editing space is to make it more perceptually uniform where a proportional change at the lower end of the scale has the same effect as one at the upper end of the scale. Gamma encoding is not to accommodate the log nature of our visual system, since the inverse gamma function is used when the image is displayed. It is true that the gamma encoding makes no difference in a color managed system: a gamma 1 image does not appear dark.
So that readers can note the differences between linear and log histograms, these are shown for various exposure adjustments.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-LQMppqW/0/O/Exp0.png)
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-sF3p8t9/0/O/ExpPlus1.png)
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-hn5VBJC/0/O/ExpPlus2.png)
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-qt4wFgW/0/O/ExpMinus1.png)
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-B62r7mW/0/O/ExpNeg2.png)
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-xxcPNLK/0/O/ExpMinus3.png)
Does this clear up your concerns?
Regards,
Bill
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Bill,
Please take some time to address and check out the attached spreadsheet w/ its two tables and graphs.
Only 1 number per table is entered (black, bold, framed). All the rest calculates from cell to cell.
Best regards, Peter
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Bill,
Please take some time to address and check out the attached spreadsheet w/ its two tables and graphs.
Only 1 number per table is entered (black, bold, framed). All the rest calculates from cell to cell.
Best regards, Peter
Peter,
I studied your spreadsheet and prepared a detailed response with some samples of my own, but the session timed out before I could post it and I don't have the energy to reconstruct it. This problem has been noted by others and the sysop should take steps to prevent it. I do have my settings to remain logged on, but they are hot honored.
Here the images, which are somewhat self explanatory.
Linear histogram using more less perceptually uniform sRGB:
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-4x8hWpX/0/O/SyntheticWedgeComposite.png)
Log 2 Histogram of the synthetic step wedge (log histogram can't represent zero)
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-tFZh4nm/0/O/SyntheticWedgeLogHistogram.png)
Spread sheet analysis:
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-zf744Qg/0/O/SyntheticWedgeSpreadsheet.png)
Stouffer wedge with calculated values for gamma 1, gamma 2.2 and sRGB along with an image of the wedge rendered with ACR 7.1 using PV2010 with a linear tone curve. Note the better precision of the log-log plot for the shadows.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-GZbvp3w/0/O/SoufferValues.png)
Log and linear histograms of the rendered image:
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-5DHdQxn/0/O/sRGBLogHisto.png)
Comments are welcome.
Regards,
Bill
Anyway, thanks for your excellent analysis.
Regards,
Bill
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Meanwhile, back on the ranch...some of us actually made some photos :)
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Meanwhile, back on the ranch...some of us actually made some photos :)
A great contribution to our understanding of the topic >:(
Bill
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Detect or correct? There’s a difference. Exposure might allow you to detect clipping but what Eric and others are saying is it is the wrong tool to alter said clipping. That is the job of the White slider in PV2012.
If you can pony up a mere $25 for George Jardine’s new video’s on LR4 and PV2012, video #4 is worth the price of admission alone in seeing how all the new tools interact.
http://mulita.com/blog/?page_id=724
I did pony up the $25 for George's tutorials. Tutorial #4 on the tone control and Tutorial #18 comparing PV2012 vs PV2010 are well worth the cost.
This is not necessarily true. Clipping due to global overexposure is best dealt with the Exposure control. See my post below. Eric has confirmed this in a previous exchange involving PV2010 and the same principle applies to PVw2012.
No, it doesn't. Eric has confirmed this. The article you linked previously is in conflict with the portion I've bolded above. The 2012 PV requires a different approach. It's true that the Exposure control is a linear adjustment but it's more concentrated in the midtones.
That’s my reading of Eric’s post (and George Jardine’s fine video’s on PV2012).
Well, look at Tutorial #4 in the section dealing with the Big Sur photograph at about 10:14 in the tutorial. That image was globally overexposed or one could merely say exposed to the right. George dealt with this issue with the Exposure control. On the other hand the image of the man in the walkway (at about 20 minutes into the tutorial) had good exposure for the midtones, but the highlights were burnt. In this case, George used the Highlight control. These adjustments are in agreement with my original contention.
Regards,
Bill
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Coming back late to this ...
... in general, ACR / LR is the wrong tool to use to understand / analyze the input capture data. That's because all of the feedback mechanisms (visualization and numbers) are based on rendered output, not the input. I understand the idea (and temptation!) of wanting to use ACR/LR to analyze the input data, but it was not designed for that purpose and is indeed rather problematic for doing so.
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Coming back late to this ...
... in general, ACR / LR is the wrong tool to use to understand / analyze the input capture data. That's because all of the feedback mechanisms (visualization and numbers) are based on rendered output, not the input. I understand the idea (and temptation!) of wanting to use ACR/LR to analyze the input data, but it was not designed for that purpose and is indeed rather problematic for doing so.
Eric,
Now that you have re-entered the thread, did you see my comment (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=67509.msg534971#msg534971) on anomalous behavior of the clipping indicator after white balance was applied. This lead to my initial post that the indicator and the Alt+Exposure or Alt+Whites controls were not helpful.
PV2012 is a definite advance in its highlight rendering capabilities, but the new math and image adaptive highlight rendering and auto highlight does complicate using ACR to look at input data. From my experience, PV2010 with linear tone curve settings does a reasonable job in this area. The ICC recommended a method (http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter) for obtaining scene referred data with ACR and it seems to work with PV2010. Any comments?
Thanks,
Bill
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... in general, ACR / LR is the wrong tool to use to understand / analyze the input capture data.
Abobe (Photoshop) actually had a good way to deal with complexity
- many tools have a checkbox "More Options" or fewer …
To Reduce Complexity is certainly a popular marketing approach in general (many potential pitfalls though), and to furnish Camera Raw with some permanent auto-functions such as Highlight-recovery (or was it called D-lighting :)) may make it easier for some users, however, it may make it harder for other users, e.g. those practicing ETTR, to know if Raw-channels clipped. And I thought I had understood that RAW is all about perfect Control, to "Rendering the Print".
Regards,
Peter
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Coming back late to this ...
... in general, ACR / LR is the wrong tool to use to understand / analyze the input capture data. That's because all of the feedback mechanisms (visualization and numbers) are based on rendered output, not the input. I understand the idea (and temptation!) of wanting to use ACR/LR to analyze the input data, but it was not designed for that purpose and is indeed rather problematic for doing so.
Abobe (Photoshop) actually had a good way to deal with complexity
- many tools have a checkbox "More Options" or fewer …
To Reduce Complexity is certainly a popular marketing approach in general (many potential pitfalls though), and to furnish Camera Raw with some permanent auto-functions such as Highlight-recovery (or was it called D-lighting :)) may make it easier for some users, however, it may make it harder for other users, e.g. those practicing ETTR, to know if Raw-channels clipped. And I thought I had understood that RAW is all about perfect Control, to "Rendering the Print".
Coming back to Eric's comment, one can use Rawdigger, a tool designed specifically for evaluation of raw files, to determine clipping. Here is my Stouffer wedge that is overexposed. Step 4 is below clipping. There is a good spread between the minimum and maximum and the selection contains 596 different levels.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-SNrs8mR/0/O/03RDStep4.png)
Step 3 is not entirely clipped, but there are only 83 levels in the same selection, so 513 levels have been clipped. The selection has too few levels to show a good bell shaped curve, but it is reasonable to assume that the right portion of the normal curve has been truncated. One would expect the standard deviation to fall with clipping in the ADC and it would be zero for complete clipping. However, with the D3 the green channels saturate before the ADC clips and the observed standard deviation is due in part to pixel response non-uniformity. The last fully intact step is step 4. Each step is 1/3 stop.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-6jhfMnG/0/O/03RDStep3.png)
If we look at the clipping indicator with PV2012 and default settings with the Adobe Standard profile we do see that step one is clipped. The automatic recovery has brought steps 2 and 3 below clipping.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-zqvPzT4/0/O/03ClipPV2012.png)
PV2010 with default settings overestimates the degree of clipping. This is due in part to the +0.5 EV baseline offset that Adobe uses for this camera.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-p29Fgjz/0/O/03ClipPV2010.png)
However, if we correct for the baseline offset by using -0.5 EV exposure and set the tone curve to linear, we get an accurate indication of clipping.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-TZMqFLm/0/O/03ClipPV2010LinExpMinHalf.png)
The take home point is one should use the proper tool to check for clipping with ETTR. Rawdigger is designed for this purpose. However, one can use PV2010 with a linear tone curve and the proper exposure correction to obtain an accurate indication of clipping, at least under these test conditions. One could save these settings as a preset so that they can easily be recalled.
I hope this helps.
Bill
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One could save these settings as a preset so that they can easily be recalled.
So there is no equivalent with PV2012. You’d make this preset, toggle on to view a more accurate clipping, then move back to PV2012 and adjust to desired result?
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So there is no equivalent with PV2012. You’d make this preset, toggle on to view a more accurate clipping, then move back to PV2012 and adjust to desired result?
Hi Andrew,
I think it's more about a means to evaluate whether an (or one) exposure (in a bracketed series) is a better starting point than another. In the PV2010 that is more straightforward to do, but we're looking for a useful shortcut in the workflow when we want to use PV2012 (which certainly has some strong points).
It would be super nice if there was some sort of Raw clipping indicator that made sense, other than having to make round-trips to RawDigger, determining per camera (per ISO?) default DNG exposure bias/offsets, and such. The current PV2012 clipping indicator does not show what's needed, in fact I also have a hard time understanding what triggers it (it ain't Raw clipping, so much is clear).
Cheers,
Bart
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So there is no equivalent with PV2012. You’d make this preset, toggle on to view a more accurate clipping, then move back to PV2012 and adjust to desired result?
Yes, that is what I would do. It is really ridiculous that one has to jump through such hoops merely to determine clipping in the raw file. A raw histogram such as offered in Rawtherapee would be the ideal solution to this problem, and I don't see why it is not offered. I would think that the programming to implement such a feature would be minimal. Eric, where are you when we need you?
Regards,
Bill
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Please take some time to address and check out the attached spreadsheet w/ its two tables and graphs.
Only 1 number per table is entered (black, bold, framed). All the rest calculates from cell to cell.
I encourage interested readers to open Peter's spreadsheet and PDF. Exposure adjustment in PV2010 involves scaling by a factor; a +1 EV involves multiplying all values by 2. As Peter's documents show, one can perform the multiplication on the gamma 1.0 raw file or the rendered gamma 2.2 file.
George Jardine's and Andrew's step wedges are not produced by photographing an actual step wedge and rendering the raw file, but synthetically in Photoshop. The steps are perceptually uniform and are evenly spaced in the gamma 2.2 space.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-VwtFs77/0/O/UniformWedgeGamma22.png)
As Peter explains, gamma 2.2 compresses the highlight tones. Therefore, the steps in the raw file are larger in the shadows than the highlights. This can be demonstrated in Photoshop by converting to a profile with a gamma of 1.0, as shown below.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-S4ndbPn/0/O/UniformWedgeGamma1.png)
Alternatively, one can calculate the raw values, which would be proportional to the luminances of a photographed wedge. The calculation involves applying the inverse gamma function. The calculations demonstrated here are for sRGB (approximately gamma 2.2). The steps in the shadows are very small.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-Z6rBqRm/0/O/UniformWedgeValues.png)
For the purpose of demonstrating the visual effects of adjusting the exposure in the raw converter, the perceptually uniform wedge that the DigitalDog and George Jardine used in their tutorials is preferable to the Stouffer wedge that I had been using and was used by Charles Cramer in his excellent post here on LuLa. As George explains in his tutorial, editing of the synthetic step wedge TIFF in ACR/LR is not exactly the same as editing a raw file in these programs.
Adjustment of exposure in PV2012 simply moves the histogram to the left or right without changing their spacing (this is what I would expect, but I have not actually tested it). With PV2012, increasing the exposure rolls off the highlights as clipping is approached, and the steps move closer together in the highlights and the contrast decreases as can be seen by looking at the slope of the characteristic curve.
(http://bjanes.smugmug.com/Photography/ACR7/i-f3498QH/0/O/ExposurePV2012.png)
Bill
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George Jardine's and Andrew's step wedges are not produced by photographing an actual step wedge and rendering the raw file, but synthetically in Photoshop.
Absolutely and the files were more to get an idea what the newer PV controls were doing than attempting to analyze anything with respect to the actual raw data. George has been working hard on a real world raw step wedge (see: http://mulita.com/blog/?p=3358).
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Absolutely and the files were more to get an idea what the newer PV controls were doing than attempting to analyze anything with respect to the actual raw data. George has been working hard on a real world raw step wedge (see: http://mulita.com/blog/?p=3358).
Thanks for the link. I looked at George's web site. He is doing some good work and his tutorial on the LR develop module is outstanding.
If you are looking at the histogram spacing of the spikes from the wedge, the Stouffer is not good since it is not perceptually uniform. However plotting the characteristic curve from Imatest as I have shown above does give a good handle in the tone curve, but it is difficult to evaluate some of the fancy math from a simple tone curve. Some wonder why the plots are log-log. Of course that is always how H&D curves have been plotted. An interesting characteristic of the log log plot is that the curve is closely related to the Opto-Electronic Conversion Function (OECF), which is a linear curve of exposure vs. pixel level. Interested readers should refer to the Imatest documentation (http://www.imatest.com/docs/q13/)(see under Stepchart, output, second figure).
Bill
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To Reduce Complexity is certainly a popular marketing approach in general (many potential pitfalls though), and to furnish Camera Raw with some permanent auto-functions such as Highlight-recovery (or was it called D-lighting :)) may make it easier for some users, however, it may make it harder for other users, e.g. those practicing ETTR, to know if Raw-channels clipped. And I thought I had understood that RAW is all about perfect Control, to "Rendering the Print".
I disagree. ACR and LR are about trying to perfect the image rendering process, not the capture process. My view is that optimizing the capture process (e.g., with ETTR) should be done in the camera, and the tools & feedback mechanisms that you need to perform ETTR optimally should be provided by the camera, not the post-capture image processing software.
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Now that you have re-entered the thread, did you see my comment (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=67509.msg534971#msg534971) on anomalous behavior of the clipping indicator after white balance was applied. This lead to my initial post that the indicator and the Alt+Exposure or Alt+Whites controls were not helpful.
PV2012 is a definite advance in its highlight rendering capabilities, but the new math and image adaptive highlight rendering and auto highlight does complicate using ACR to look at input data. From my experience, PV2010 with linear tone curve settings does a reasonable job in this area. The ICC recommended a method (http://www.color.org/scene-referred.xalter) for obtaining scene referred data with ACR and it seems to work with PV2010. Any comments?
Hi Bill, yes, our WB math has changed in PV 2012 which is the reason for the difference between the two. Even with PV 2010 you won't get fully scene-referred data out in many cases, because color profiles can (and do) apply fairly non-linear color mappings.
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My view is that optimizing the capture process (e.g., with ETTR) should be done in the camera, and the tools & feedback mechanisms that you need to perform ETTR optimally should be provided by the camera, not the post-capture image processing software.
Interesting philosophy.
Thanks for the open communication
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I disagree. ACR and LR are about trying to perfect the image rendering process, not the capture process. My view is that optimizing the capture process (e.g., with ETTR) should be done in the camera, and the tools & feedback mechanisms that you need to perform ETTR optimally should be provided by the camera, not the post-capture image processing software.
I think that most would agree that exposure should be gotten right in the camera when one can make adjustments as necessary for optimal image quality. Unfortunately, the camera makers have not provided us with the tools and it is necessary to address some of these issues in postprocessing. Whether or not channels are clipped is of prime interest and photographers need a way to assess this, either with the raw converter (Rawtherapee already offers a raw histogram) or with another utility such as Rawdigger.
Requesting a raw histogram in ACR is not unreasonable.
Regards,
Bill