Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: ozphoto on May 28, 2012, 03:47:40 pm
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I have a requirement for a 24" large format printer, mainly for my clients as well as other wedding photographers who like my output. I would consider my volume to be low to med with weeks where nothing is printed, then lots of printing. I have no need for a rip.
What I know so far and please correct me if I am wrong.
1) Epson has 1 head, requires technician to change when the time comes, costs unknown - Canon has 2 heads, user replaceable at $450.00 each.
2) Epson heads clog and they are noted for this, Canon remaps to another nozzle but because they use heat they wear out faster.
3) Epson has no web portal for cost management any longer - Canon has windows software that runs locally.
4) Epson build quality is better as they use more metal. - Canon uses plastic covers etc.
5) Epson has better black detail and skin tones - Canon has better saturated color?
6) Epson uses 70 watts of power when operating. - Canon uses 200 watts.
7) Epson 7900 is a big brute in size. - Canon IPF6300 is much smaller
8) Epson has 3 sizes of ink not that I could afford the largest. - Canon has only 1 size.
9) Epson 7900 $3075 CDN - Canon IPF6300 $4000
10) Epson is the de-facto standard for printing professionals. - Canon not so much.
Is Canon worth a $1000 more?
This is what I dug up, whether these are true I really don't know. Can anyone provide some advice. Rebates are included until May 31 on the Epson.
Cheers
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One of the features of our HP Z3200 24" that's useful to us is the machine's ability to sit for weeks unused, and startup without head clogs. Several other members here will chime in, but there is a lot said these days about head clogs in idle machines. This aspect, for some irregular users, winds up being as important as any other printer feature. Costs and inconvenience of PK-MK ink change, as is needed in the Epson case, might also be a consideration for some users. It is quite debatable, in my mind, that the print appearance offered by any of the leading 24" formats will differ enough for image quality to be the deciding factor. These days print quality, once you have your workflow in order, is pretty startling.
John Caldwell
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Thanks
Like I said my volume would be low, so clogged heads is something I do not want to deal with whether Epson or Canon but I need 24" thats the issue for me, hopefully some more folks will chime in on these 2 machines.
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Sure. You don't mention HP. I have no angle against Epson or Canon, as we also own Epson 3800 & 4900, and use our collaborator's 9900 for large prints. Perhaps there aren't good HP prices right now.
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Most photographic dealers don't carry HP, just Epson and mostly and some Canon. Not sure why this is? But Epson seems to be the defacto standard for pro's?
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IMHO, low-volume users - especially those who sometimes go for a while without printing anything - are going to have fewer headaches with Canon or HP.
I don't think the comments about one brand having better saturation or another having better skin tones really make much sense. They have similar gamuts (well, HP not quite); differences in output would have more to do with media selection and color management than anything else.
For a long time, Epson was the only serious option for large format photo inkjet printers, so that's what pretty much everybody used. People who have been using Epson for a decade or more tend to stay with Epson unless they've had a particularly bad experience, because it's what they know.
Canon has become more popular in more recent years. Initially discount pricing and rebates had a lot to do with it. While that still plays a factor, with the x300 series Canon are pretty much on equal footing with Epson even setting price aside.
Speaking of price, are you comparing MSRP pricing? I find it hard to believe the Canon would be that much more expensive. Here in the US, the iPF2400 can be had for $2499, $2199 if you have something old that qualifies for trade-in rebate. The 8300 has even better rebates, bringing it down almost to same price level if you qualify for trade-in.
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Don't disregard the HP Z3200 printers for consideration. As for "defacto standard", there is no such thing. Dealers don't make much money from selling the printers. Don't look for much support from the dealers.
All three printers will deliver excellent results for you. Also, there have been some pretty amazing recent deals on 44" Canon IPF8300--less than the 6300! Check out that option. If you are interested in doing canvas prints, then the 44" model is really required to do finished prints wider than 20".
The HP printer has a built-in Spectro--that's worth $1K. Also, HP print heads are a lot cheaper--about $65 for a two color head. My initial print heads with moderate printing lasted over 2 years.
If you plan on doing much B&W printing, the HP is considered to be king, short of using dedicated B&W inks in a printer. Big negative on the HP, is it's sheet handling--real PITA. If sheet handling is major consideration, the Epson is king.
Making this kind of decision is not easy. Hope the above info helps you.
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Just to add to John's comments about sheet handling on the Z series: I bought an Epson 4900 for the sole purpose of improving cut sheet handling over what the Z3200 offered. I'll have to say that my mission was not accomplished. Since I generally use heavy fine art media, I'm stuck using the 4900's "Rear Manual Feed" paper path, and, as it turns out that path has as many problems as our Z3200 had with regard to sheet goods. Epson tech support admits the 4900's rear feed is troublesome, and in need of a workaround.
Anyway, the Z3200 sheet path is workable, as is the Epson 4900's, in my opinion - but neither is what I'd call ready for release in honesty. I believe the Epson 4900 sheet handling is better when heavy papers are not being used, or when the "front path" is being used.
John Caldwell
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Most photographic dealers don't carry HP, just Epson and mostly and some Canon. Not sure why this is? But Epson seems to be the defacto standard for pro's?
In the U.S., it seems the Canon's higher end printers are not represented by the same people who represent their cameras. My Canon rep is alway trying to get me to sell the 9000 (or is it 9500, I don't remember) but he doesn't have anything to do with ipf printer. Whoever those reps are don't seem to be interested in many cameras stores. I've yet to be contacted, and a sell a fair number of Epson printers a year. Yes, it can be tough to get Canon inks locally in many markets. Just make sure you order and have them shipped in plenty of time if you don't have a dealer.
Just to add to John's comments about sheet handling on the Z series: I bought an Epson 4900 for the sole purpose of improving cut sheet handling over what the Z3200 offered. I'll have to say that my mission was not accomplished. Since I generally use heavy fine art media, I'm stuck using the 4900's "Rear Manual Feed" paper path, and, as it turns out that path has as many problems as our Z3200 had with regard to sheet goods. Epson tech support admits the 4900's rear feed is troublesome, and in need of a workaround.
Anyway, the Z3200 sheet path is workable, as is the Epson 4900's, in my opinion - but neither is what I'd call ready for release in honesty. I believe the Epson 4900 sheet handling is better when heavy papers are not being used, or when the "front path" is being used.
John Caldwell
Seems the OP was asking about the 7900, not the 4900. The difference in paper feed systems for these printers is dramatic, and the 7900 is far superior in handling heavy papers vs either the Canon ipf printers or the Epson 4900. It's basically a 100% straight paper path, and all you do is set the paper in the position, and hit the load button ... seconds.
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Yes, Wayne is right of course, my 4900 and paper path comments aren't relevant to anyone wanting a 24" machine. I love the paper path and resistance to skew that my collaborator's 9900 has.I imagine it's the same as the 7900.
John Caldwell
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I cannot do a comparison for you because I only have an ipf 6300 which I have owned for two months. Before that I had the 6100 which ran for four years without fault. In that four years I put approx £13000 worth of paper and ink through the machine, which is well over a hundred cartridges and equivalent of sixty 30-metre rolls of paper, and one set of heads at about 30 months - so it did get a fair amount of use! It always behaved faultlessly, even when left idle for a week or so. I changed the machine because I was worried that at four years old it might start to develop faults and also I was offered £800 as a trade-in (new machine £2300) so I though I would switch while the 6100 had some residual value.
Overall, as a user, I cannot fault the Canon printers - which in the end is all that matters. Regarding costs, all I can say is that the price of the machine becomes fairly insignificant as you get into doing a lot of printing, especially if you are selling your work. I have nothing against Epson - except for the old 4000 (ancestor of the 4900) I used to have which clogged really badly and wasted me a lot of money in ink and time.
Jim
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Since you are looking for opinions.. here is mine.
Didn't read through all the threads, but it doesn't matter because my mind is made up. The Canon is the way to go. I used to have an Epson 4000 and 4800 which clogged like crazy. Sure my iPF6100 has caused me problems too, had to replace a head because I hardly used it for months, but at least I could do it myself. With the Epson, if you get a lemon, which sounds like its quite common to me, you're stuck, and head cleanings just drop entire channels in my experience. The Canon also has nozzles for both blacks which means you're never wasting ink. I don't care so much about the decato standard. My local Epson dealer is staffed with snobs, so even though I do buy Epson canvas and paper to run in my Canon printer, everything you can get online so who really cares. I am finally selling prints and canvases, and nobody cares to ask if its Epson or Canon. Thanks for reading!
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I plan to go up to the Canon office in 2 days to see a demo of the ipf6300, I plan on asking a lot of questions. I hope I can reconcile the $1000 difference between the Epson 7900 and Canon ipf6300.
I also called an Epson and Canon replacement parts centre today to get pricing on the heads. This might help me ? :-\
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Question for Wayne...
I have a 9890, and when I load letter size sheets, I nearly always get a paper skew unless I keep positive force on the top edge of the paper (and cross my fingers). I never had to do this with my 7800. Is this "common" or is there an issue with the paper pickup? The printer doesn't register the skew either, and it can be obviously off several degrees.
Seriously, my 7800 pulls the paper in nice and easy while the 9890 grabs the paper it like you've revved the engine and popped the clutch!
Am I missing a setting somewhere? I do have "check paper skew" enabled.
Thanks!
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Question for Wayne...
I have a 9890, and when I load letter size sheets, I nearly always get a paper skew unless I keep positive force on the top edge of the paper (and cross my fingers). I never had to do this with my 7800. Is this "common" or is there an issue with the paper pickup? The printer doesn't register the skew either, and it can be obviously off several degrees.
Seriously, my 7800 pulls the paper in nice and easy while the 9890 grabs the paper it like you've revved the engine and popped the clutch!
Am I missing a setting somewhere? I do have "check paper skew" enabled.
Thanks!
It might be better to start a new post with this question as it seems a bit off topic. - Jim
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Ok looks like the Epson 7900 for $3075.00 versus the Canon ipf6300 for $3800.00 (rebates) in plus taxes and any shipping. This is CDN $.
So come Monday unless someone convinces me otherwise its an Epson 7900.
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I was really surprised to see Ozphoto's conclusion for the Epson printer. Seems the conclusion is based almost entirely on price instead of the comments on user experience in response to his post. (Granted, single-sheet handling may have been a part of the decision.) That's a perfectly reasonable/understandable way to decide; after all, each of us only has so much to spend. However, I don't remember seeing, in a long history of enjoying the Printers forum, anyone recommending the larger Epson printers for someone who goes weeks without printing. Hope to hear good results in this case. --Barbara
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I need to correct the pricing, the Epson 7900 is actually $2699.00 so its an $1100 difference. I do like the Canon ipf6300 as I went to Canon yesterday for a lab and print session, but for someone like me who is low volume for my clients and picking up the odd print job from other shooters. I can keep these funds for paper and ink and any repairs down to road.
Or am I thinking about this all wrong?
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The answer may depend on how much hair you have on your head. Remember that feeling when things aren't working and just keep not working and you feel like pulling out all the hair on your head? I remember a post when Wayne Fox was having conniption fits over his Epson printer, really going crazy with it. Something happened to make him feel good about it (after how many repair visits?/replacement printers?). Maybe he could join in. And I assume he is a pretty regular printer without weeks of hiatus between printing jobs. (I mention Wayne sometimes in my posts because his responses are always cogent and well-informed, so I've paid some attention to them and give them quite a bit of weight.) A big argument for the Epson is the availability of numerous retail sources and perhaps better access to repair personnel. As Wayne pointed out, camera retailers seem not to be carrying the Canon. On the other hand, it isn't the retailer you'll be dealing with for repair problems, but someone else. So maybe the relationship with the retailer isn't that important for this purchase. When I get the other half of my garage converted for interior use, I expect to be in the market for a larger printer, too. So I'm not a current user of anything larger than the 4900, but have had good reason to follow these posts with keen interest. --Barbara
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Have you looked at US sourced pricing? You may be able to get the Canon cheaper than the Epson, but you can not apply the Canon US rebates unless someone in the US buys it for you. The only reason I would not buy the Canon is that Canon Canada is not giving rebates (do they now?), but that should not be the factor. Printers are cheap these days, look at the price 10 years ago.
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There is a $1000 rebate of the Epson 7900 and only $600 of the Canon ipf6300. Buying from the US ie. B+H won't ship either printer to Ontario, Canada. I tried.
The price difference is that huge right now I can't justify the Canon even it is supposed to be faster, has user replaceable heads and ink and paper costing software, plus some poster thing.
If I buy one roll of paper ($120.00) the retailer will even drop ship it to my door.
Canon has no penetration in the stores I checked here in Ontario, its always Epson. Oh sure they can always order it they say.
Final Tally - Canadian Dollars
Epson 7900 - all inclusive - taxes, shipping, rebate, electronic recycling fee and extra roll of paper - $3222.14
Canon ipf6300 - taxes, electronic recycling fee, rebate, no extra roll of paper, no shipping - $4330.73
Difference - $1108.59 - you can buy quite a bit of ink and/or paper with this difference.
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It's been said by others elsewhere that European cars are only a proposition if you own them during the warranty period. It seems to me that if you purchase new and extend the warranty as long as possible, it doesn't really matter which brand, Epson or Canon you buy. Either way its problems are somebody else's.
Delays would come into it of course, so maybe it comes down to service speed and reliability.
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i have 3 epson printers, 7900,3800,r3000. they are all in different locations.
the 7900 is in my summer home in northern ontario. each fall i turn it off, remove
the inks and it sits for the entire winter. after each winter (3) i install inks turn it on
do a head cleaning and it works flawlessly. i should mention it sits out the winter at approx minus 20 degrees.
the other two printers have the same sporadic use just not the extreme climate change they too work flawlessly.
i have owned canon and hp printers over the years and for me nothing beats epson.
hope this helps
regards
allan
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Really, you let your ink lines and printheads freeze each winter?????
i have 3 epson printers, 7900,3800,r3000. they are all in different locations.
the 7900 is in my summer home in northern ontario. each fall i turn it off, remove
the inks and it sits for the entire winter. after each winter (3) i install inks turn it on
do a head cleaning and it works flawlessly. i should mention it sits out the winter at approx minus 20 degrees.
the other two printers have the same sporadic use just not the extreme climate change they too work flawlessly.
i have owned canon and hp printers over the years and for me nothing beats epson.
hope this helps
regards
allan
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i have owned canon and hp printers over the years and for me nothing beats epson.
I have owned many Epson printers over the years and my new iPF6350 beats them all with ease :D
Like polish poet, writer and nobelist - Czeslaw Milosz once wrote: "The true enemy of man is generalization".
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I have had the Canon ipf6300 for a year, and I absolutely love it. I'd recommend it strongly and without hesitation. My volume is also quite low - I've gone 2-3 months between prints, and I've had zero problems with clogging or anything else. It's been running perfectly from the start at all times. I'm also impressed with how long the original ink tanks have lasted. I can't speak to the Epson, but I can certainly recommend the Canon in the strongest possible terms! That printer is a gem.
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I don't own either of these but have been looking to upgrade my 4880 and I think one of the other differences to consider, cost wise, is that the canons ship with much more ink. 330ml carts if I'm not mistaken, vs the epson's which I understand are really just large enough to charge the lines (110ml??)
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Only in iPF8300 - iPF6300 uses 130ml carts, and comes wit 90ml starters. On the other hand - it needs much less ink for initial charge, consumes ~30% less ink and wastes less ink for cleanings.
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When I bought my iPF6100, it was an incredible deal down in the US given the rebate and a whole set of free inks. Too good to pass up. I bought from Atlex.com (or Itsupplies.com) and was able to pick up the printer in Chicago.. yes... from Ontario I drove to Chicago. The $100 in gas was nothing compared to the savings. Now of course I would just use a package receiving service, there are a ton in Niagara Falls (just make sure they can take a pallet). The rebates in the US are even better than probably the rebates in Canada for the Epson. You might worry about warranty, which is true, but the heads can always be replaced and guess what, you would just use the address for the package service as your so called home address. Maybe if you fry a board then you might be SOL as I don't think
I do agreet that in Canada, Canon wide format printers have terrible presence, but doing business with the US is quite easy, especially if you live close to the border. Inks are way cheaper too so the gas to drive down is more than offset by the savings. Too bad the dollar just lost a bit of value against the US$ in the past few days. But look into this option if you are swayed towards the Canon.
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One thing no one has mentioned is epson suck ink out of those cartridges like a vampire takes blood. Bith Canon and HP are much better in the long run on not draining ink.
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Allandew : How can the printer sit in those conditions, the lines will harden and eventually crack will they not, and what about the electronics, capacitors etc etc.
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When I shut down that printer for the winter I do a head cleaning, remove aii inks, wrap it in blankets and then cover it in plastic. The purpose of the blankets is to stop any quick temperature changes that could lead to condensation and promote corrosion. Although this may seem reckless and sloppy i have very little choice as I live on an island in the summer and you cannot imagine the "fun" I had getting it there in a small boat. Most printers don't like boat rides . This is my third year going through this ritual and I am happy to say that the printer works flawlessly. No doubt Epson would not endorse this kind of storage but I think as with most manufacturers they will always be very conservative on the limits of their hardware and consumables. I am sure you will purchase the printer that meets most of your requirements. I was only trying to reassure you that Epson products are very robust and should be a contender in your decision making. Lastly I have been in the prepress, photography industry for over forty years and have owned many many printers of all sorts I only responded because i happen to own one of the printers you are considering.
All the best
Allan
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I wiah I had photographed getting that 7900 into a boat and then over to the island. Would have made a great ad for Epson!
Anyway yes it appears that the Epson 7900 will be my purchase based on quality of prints but also price. A substantial price I might add. The difference in cost will certainly able me to buy more ink and paper.
Planning on going to the ProFusion 2012 show in Toronto and purchase it there.
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yes it was quite a sight, it took six very strong guys to get it off the truck and into the boat.
i think the pallet and packaging weighed as much as the printer!
i am sure you will be happy with the 7900 it really is a beautiful printer.
i too am going to the show for both days, looking forward to hearing Jeff and Seth speak
i think they are two of the best in the business.
all the best
allan
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Oz, my printer use is similar to what you expect, periods of no activity followed by much use. I've had the 7900 for about one and a half years. Clogs evident through printing the nozzle check do happen after non use of about a week, usually one cleaning takes care of it. I've found that cleaning ink pairs to be ineffective, I have to do a full cleaning to get the test perfect. Cleaning occasional clogs can be annoying but is not a big deal. Maybe if you (and me too) just run a small print every day clogs can be avoided altogether.
Good luck with the printer.
Peter
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I can't agree that Epsons are prone to clogging - that has not been my experience. I have had a 4880 for almost 3 years and it frequently sits idle for weeks. I have never needed to run a power cleaning. I have gotten clogs once in a wile but they have always been fixed by running the "regular" cleaning cycle one or more times.
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I have to concur with what John has to say about the HP.
I have a Z3200PS and it may not have the biggest color gamut, but for B&W I think it's great. Until Canon releases a new 24" printer with the new inkset that's in there new 13" desktop model, I will stick with my HP..
Though on the flipside, if B&W is not your thing, I would get the IPF6300 today.
Who knows what the future is with HP at this point.
Steven
Don't disregard the HP Z3200 printers for consideration. As for "defacto standard", there is no such thing. Dealers don't make much money from selling the printers. Don't look for much support from the dealers.
All three printers will deliver excellent results for you. Also, there have been some pretty amazing recent deals on 44" Canon IPF8300--less than the 6300! Check out that option. If you are interested in doing canvas prints, then the 44" model is really required to do finished prints wider than 20".
The HP printer has a built-in Spectro--that's worth $1K. Also, HP print heads are a lot cheaper--about $65 for a two color head. My initial print heads with moderate printing lasted over 2 years.
If you plan on doing much B&W printing, the HP is considered to be king, short of using dedicated B&W inks in a printer. Big negative on the HP, is it's sheet handling--real PITA. If sheet handling is major consideration, the Epson is king.
Making this kind of decision is not easy. Hope the above info helps you.
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If you're looking for the top quality prints, the 7900 will give that quality due to the HDR inks (Orange and Green). The IPF6300 is also a great printer, but it may be a little better with the transfer from Photo to Matte black. Also, Canon's have the Hard Drive installed where Epson doesn't offer that in the models.
Both models still have nice discounts going on. Check us out if you're interested or any other questions on different models.
We sell a good qty of the Epson printers, but Canon is also a nice brand to go with as well. Depends on what you print more of. But, the sheet feeding on the Epson should be a drop in the feeder and pushing a button. Canon's is putting it through the front and setting it up on the line. Otherwise, they are both easy and great quality. We have the IPF8300 and Epson 9890 in our office that we print on a lot.
We don't sell much of the HP line since they are more into Computers and papers, but they have a good selection left. The Z3200 series is being discontinued though.
Chris W