Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: nad54 on May 25, 2012, 12:22:14 pm
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Anyone got any thoughts as to whether Hasselblad wants to stay in the MF market? Price reductions don't really help those of us who already have H camera systems. If anything they just devalued our equipment.
Do the new owners think they can turn the company into a 'boutique' manufacturer like Leica. Ferrari editions ... come on.
What they should be saying is they are fully committed to MF and they are working on new products. Those price reductions could be seen as panicking.
Hasselblad, I am afraid to say your marketing sucks.
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::)
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We should all be happy that quality gear is getting cheaper. Are you a photographer or a gear collector?
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I am most definitely a working photographer and designer and as such the equipment I use is a tool and not a toy. Anyone investing considerable amounts of money in a medium format digital system including substantial investment in glass needs to know the manufacturers are going to keep developing that system and not pull the plug on it. What concerns me is the lack of positive messages coming out of Hasselblad.
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I don't think Hasselblad is dropping the MF line anytime soon. It works for them and frankly if anything they've been prepping to strengthen their position... What with the Broncelblad unification stateside.
Good on them I think, someone needed to, but they do need to update their digital system... Actually Phase one seriously need to update their DF... But that's another story for another thread.
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I think with the price reductions, they are panicking. Just about every pro shooter uses Phase One backs. Although most pair the P1 backs with a Hassey. But no one uses Hasselblad's backs or their terrible software.
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I am most definitely a working photographer and designer and as such the equipment I use is a tool and not a toy. Anyone investing considerable amounts of money in a medium format digital system including substantial investment in glass needs to know the manufacturers are going to keep developing that system and not pull the plug on it. What concerns me is the lack of positive messages coming out of Hasselblad.
I have the same worries as you have. I am afraid this is the beginning of the end for Hasselblad as we know them.
I fear that soon we will only have one real MF company (PhaseLeafMamiya). I know Pentax is still alive, but it's seems to me this is not the company that will drive the tecknology forward.
I would be very scared to buy new Hasselblad gear at this time. Iwouldn't be supprices if Hasselblad will go for something completely new that appeals to the consumer-market.
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I think with the price reductions, they are panicking. Just about every pro shooter uses Phase One backs. Although most pair the P1 backs with a Hassey. But no one uses Hasselblad's backs or their terrible software.
This is total rubbish and you really do not know what you are talking about. Sure the P1 backs are good but many photographers (myself included) use the complete Hasselblad system. Their software is not bad and works well with the Hasselblad system. Hasselblad are in the business of supporting their entire market place with in-depth support and a complete camera system. That is why their subsidiary in the UK (Pro Centre) are happy to rent either Hasselblad entire cameras or the cameras paired with P1 backs.
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I have the same worries as you have. I am afraid this is the beginning of the end for Hasselblad as we know them.
I fear that soon we will only have one real MF company (PhaseLeafMamiya). I know Pentax is still alive, but it's seems to me this is not the company that will drive the tecknology forward.
I would be very scared to buy new Hasselblad gear at this time. Iwouldn't be supprices if Hasselblad will go for something completely new that appeals to the consumer-market.
We really do not know what Hasselblad are doing with their business or their product line. I cannot believe that they have been bought recently and that the new owners will screw up their traditional market. Many photographers have a significant investment in Hasselblad glass and appreciate the in-depth support the company provides. We all know that the depreciation on MFD backs is horrendous and you know that when you buy the kit. Nothing has changed. The D800 is a fine camera (I have a D800E) but it is most definitely not a Hasselblad and never will be. Let's ee what happens before we start writing the company (and our investment) off.
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The thing that confuses the heck out of me is this Hasselblad H to Leica S2 adapter. I mean it's hard to believe that Leica came up with this on their own, so i have to assume Hasselblad helped in some way, and seeing how fiercely they have protected their closed system in the past I am surprised that they would condone this adapter which almost seems to make it seem like they plan to be making money only from lenses soon...?
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This begs the question: what has Hasselblad announced (or shipped) as far as products in the past 2 years? I am not talking rehashed products that are painted in red that are still sitting on storage shelves. I mean honest to goodness real products. I can't think of a single thing. Phase One and Leaf announced an 80mp camera / back 15 or so months ago. Is Hasselblad going to have anything of note to answer?
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Hasselblad has the best name in the hole MF market. It is not unlikely that the new owners are interested in
using the name to market products to a wider audience. Maybe a digital panorama like the x-pan or a high-end compact?
Just speculations of course, but the brand is sure worth a lot to the right people.
Like it is now Hasselblad has not been making money for years, and are falling behind Phase One.
It seems like they are not investing hard for a comeback, but are cutting
expences instead. They might be "digitally dying" like Sinar did some time ago..
If they don't keep on making better backs Nikon and others will sooner or later catch up with them.
Henrik
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This begs the question: what has Hasselblad announced (or shipped) as far as products in the past 2 years?
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I can't think of a single thing.
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The H4D-200MS perhaps... the H4X as well...
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H4x? That took zero engineering skills to make an existing camera compatible with Phase One digital backs. Zero, because Phase One is the resource who designed the interface to begin with (and has been part of a lawsuit between the two companies in years past).
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H4x? That took zero engineering skills to make an existing camera compatible with Phase One digital backs. Zero, because Phase One is the resource who designed the interface to begin with (and has been part of a lawsuit between the two companies in years past).
Still very much appreciated by a/o myself. Photokina will tell what Hasselblad, Phase and others have up their sleeves.
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The thing that confuses the heck out of me is this Hasselblad H to Leica S2 adapter. I mean it's hard to believe that Leica came up with this on their own, so i have to assume Hasselblad helped in some way, and seeing how fiercely they have protected their closed system in the past I am surprised that they would condone this adapter which almost seems to make it seem like they plan to be making money only from lenses soon...?
All evidence points to it being a solo effort on the part of Leica.
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All evidence points to it being a solo effort on the part of Leica.
I was actually under the impression it was a third party thing...
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I was actually under the impression it was a third party thing...
Evidence?
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Evidence?
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=66920.msg529216#msg529216
Actually after re-reading it, perhaps it was meant independently of Hasselblad and not both. ^_^' My mistake.
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As always here on LL another Hasselblad thread populated with nonsense posts about Hasselblad not selling any cameras, losing money and so on.
To answer the OP's question in one word:
Photokina
Nick-T
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I will be there :)
The new color or limited edition does not convince me. Expect something groundbreaking 8)
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As always here on LL another Hasselblad thread populated with nonsense posts about Hasselblad not selling any cameras, losing money and so on.
To answer the OP's question in one word:
Photokina
Nick-T
Well said Nick
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Nick
I am not anti Hasselblad cameras. Far from it. It is just so frustrating that there are no positive messages coming from Hasselblad about the future of their MF platform. Even a statement that they are fully committed to it would be welcome. Phase are offering incredible deals to lure people to cross-grade.
What really pisses me off is the appalling job they are doing on the marketing front. They take whole page adverts in photography magazines trying to sell expensive camera systems with 'slick' marketing whereas Phase quietly won over most of the blogs!
Hasselblad cameras and service department fantastic. Marketing rubbish!
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whereas Phase quietly won over most of the blogs!
I couldn't agree more!
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Certainly Hasseblad appears to have an enviable marketing budget... whether it is efficient or not is hard to say. I think they have done a good job of creating and nurturing a brand name that is seen as quality but has it transferred into selling?
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Anyone got any thoughts as to whether Hasselblad wants to stay in the MF market?
Most camera makers seem to drop prices after a period of time. They drop prices as a product goes through it's life cycle.
Makers drop prices to move inventory before coming out with a new product.
The new Hasselblad owners may feel this will increase market share.
They may feel the competition from new high end dslr's and want to decrease the price difference.
They may feel someone like Fuji, based on it's innovative and impressive sensor of the XPro-1 and with experience in medium format cameras and lenses might come out with a new MFD body that will be priced well below their products and might consequently wants to move into a lower price bracket now to compete with or discourage such a move.
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The H4D-200MS perhaps... the H4X as well...
Plus lenses.
I will love to see a H4D-320 based on the 80mpixel sensor. Maybe it's not possible since the 80mpixel Dalsa has a different size, but if possible it will be a great addition.
That will be something easy to do. The other stuff, also in the speculative side of the fence will be a H4D-80.
Photokina is coming on september, For that moment we are likely to know.
Best regards,
J. Duncan
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I figure there will be a H4D80, it has been around 2 Years after the 80mp backs of Leaf and P1. I reckon there will be room now to deliver sensors to HB as well. It has been a similar situation with the 60 too. Maybe a H5D with an improved LCD and battery solution for use on a tech cam...
I don't get the fuzz, HB is probably just working on the new stuff instead of trying to entertain us over here. Indeed their marketing is downright dumb. The efficiency compared to money spend must be horrible.. A pity IMO.
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I will be there :)
The new color or limited edition does not convince me. Expect something groundbreaking 8)
While that would be wonderful, don't hold your breath. Hasselcon hasn't done anything innovative in back design or technology since....um...since...well.....since ?? Does coming out with the A12 count? ;)
The company has also likely been starved of R&D cash throughout most of Shiro's unfortunate ownership tenure, and our Swiss-german friends have not had the company for nearly long enough to fund a serious development cycle, if that's their intent.
All of which adds up to something ground-breaking at Photokina seeming like kind of a long-shot.
Of course, the "Digital Xpan" has been rumoured for years, and since Fuji actually makes most everything for 'Blad, and is on a winning streak with their cameras, perhaps there's some hope on this front.
- N.
ps. caveat: none of the foregoing is intended as a knock against existing "H" kit. It is what it is and makes nice pictures.
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While that would be wonderful, don't hold your breath. Hasselcon hasn't done anything innovative in back design or technology since....um...since...well.....since ?? Does coming out with the A12 count? ;)
The company has also likely been starved of R&D cash throughout most of Shiro's unfortunate ownership tenure, and our Swiss-german friends have not had the company for nearly long enough to fund a serious development cycle, if that's their intent.
All of which adds up to something ground-breaking at Photokina seeming like kind of a long-shot.
Of course, the "Digital Xpan" has been rumoured for years, and since Fuji actually makes most everything for 'Blad, and is on a winning streak with their cameras, perhaps there's some hope on this front.
- N.
ps. caveat: none of the foregoing is intended as a knock against existing "H" kit. It is what it is and makes nice pictures.
I'm going to bookmark this post and come back for a chuckle after Photokina.
As for the nonsense about Fuji making most everything, I really don't know why that myth persists. The facts are spelled out in the Hasselblad video recently posted, if you have a spare 10 minutes you can hear exactly what is and isn't made by Fuji.
Nick-T
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I'm going to bookmark this post and come back for a chuckle after Photokina.
As for the nonsense about Fuji making most everything, I really don't know why that myth persists. The facts are spelled out in the Hasselblad video recently posted, if you have a spare 10 minutes you can hear exactly what is and isn't made by Fuji.
Nick-T
Nick, you should know by now that, if you have an axe to grind, you will never let the facts get in the way.
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I'm going to bookmark this post and come back for a chuckle after Photokina.
As for the nonsense about Fuji making most everything, I really don't know why that myth persists. The facts are spelled out in the Hasselblad video recently posted, if you have a spare 10 minutes you can hear exactly what is and isn't made by Fuji.
Nick-T
Nick, so that you did an interview with Ove ;D
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While that would be wonderful, don't hold your breath. Hasselcon hasn't done anything innovative in back design or technology since....um...since...well.....since ?? Does coming out with the A12 count? ;)
The company has also likely been starved of R&D cash throughout most of Shiro's unfortunate ownership tenure, and our Swiss-german friends have not had the company for nearly long enough to fund a serious development cycle, if that's their intent.
All of which adds up to something ground-breaking at Photokina seeming like kind of a long-shot.
Of course, the "Digital Xpan" has been rumoured for years, and since Fuji actually makes most everything for 'Blad, and is on a winning streak with their cameras, perhaps there's some hope on this front.
- N.
ps. caveat: none of the foregoing is intended as a knock against existing "H" kit. It is what it is and makes nice pictures.
I guess.
But recently, I was disgusted at the fair that the new product has been repainted. For these products we will not wait.
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I figure there will be a H4D80, it has been around 2 Years after the 80mp backs of Leaf and P1. I reckon there will be room now to deliver sensors to HB as well. It has been a similar situation with the 60 too. Maybe a H5D with an improved LCD and battery solution for use on a tech cam...
I don't get the fuzz, HB is probably just working on the new stuff instead of trying to entertain us over here. Indeed their marketing is downright dumb. The efficiency compared to money spend must be horrible.. A pity IMO.
As I wrote about the stupidity of marketing over a year ago. Nobody listened to me...
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As I wrote about the stupidity of marketing over a year ago. Nobody listened to me...
You went further than only negativity about the way HB deploys their marketing budget. Much further.. I believe that is the part that most people gave up listening to.
There are more people that believe HB can much improve on their communication, these people (including myself) have expressed this more than once over the last couple of years.
I am looking forward to what will be presented a Photokina this year. Maybe, maybe really maybe I might be going there this year. If only to meet some people I have sofar only communicated with via the 'electronic highway'.
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I'm going to bookmark this post and come back for a chuckle after Photokina.
If you're at Photokina, let's just meet at the 'Blad booth and then go for a drink. I'll get the first round.
- N.
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If you're at Photokina, let's just meet at the 'Blad booth and then go for a drink. I'll get the first round.
- N.
Sure, i will come round too. You'll recognize me because I'll be wearing a Nikon on my right shoulder.
Edmund
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I wish us all who will come there not to see "Lady Gaga Eddition" ::)
I really believe that we will be happy with what we see there. This company has great potential.
I do not want to Hasselblad ended like Kodak.
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I just wonder about such threads. I think most contributors own a Canon 500D with a kitlens and don´t know how to spend their sunday afternoon ;)
I bought an H3D39 with 8 lenses at the end of 2007 and I just use it. Believe it or not: it works! It does great pictures, every time.
I stopped reading camera tests after the purchase, that saved me a lot of time.
My clients are happy with the quality and I am happy with it, too. And the quality does not become worse, only because Nikon released a D800.
The lenses are absolutely great, totally reliable. Thats not like with 35mm where you buy the super new lens for 1.600,- EUR and it is just a little bit better than the previous version, but your are already waiting for the next.
So what marvels are you expecting from the company? And if they released it, would YOU buy it or just open a new discussion thread?
Most of the Hasselblad clients are too busy doing their photography work to discuss with you here.
The only thing I expect from the company is to stay in business for a long time to keep my equipment working.
Best,
Bernd
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+1
"I just wonder about such threads. I think most contributors own a Canon 500D with a kitlens and don´t know how to spend their sunday afternoon
I bought an H3D39 with 8 lenses at the end of 2007 and I just use it. Believe it or not: it works! It does great pictures, every time.
I stopped reading camera tests after the purchase, that saved me a lot of time.
My clients are happy with the quality and I am happy with it, too. And the quality does not become worse, only because Nikon released a D800.
The lenses are absolutely great, totally reliable. Thats not like with 35mm where you buy the super new lens for 1.600,- EUR and it is just a little bit better than the previous version, but your are already waiting for the next.
So what marvels are you expecting from the company? And if they released it, would YOU buy it or just open a new discussion thread?
Most of the Hasselblad clients are too busy doing their photography work to discuss with you here.
The only thing I expect from the company is to stay in business for a long time to keep my equipment working."
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"The only thing I expect from the company is to stay in business for a long time to keep my equipment working."
This is the biggest worry! Is Hasselblad allive in 3 years?
If nothing new comes up, I think not..
Henrik
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Hmmm,
I would like to remind once again that it is not equipment, photographers take pictures.
When it comes to free time, it depends on many factors:
- The level of organization of the time
- Are you an "artist" photographer, or just a "craftsman" photographer
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If you want to buy a new 645 system, you can either buy a P1 / Mamiya or a Hasselblad. So it is 50/50.
The body of the P1 / Mamiya is crap. The weak point is the finder. The prism. You can design new generations of focusing screens every three years, but the finder stays what it is. There seems to be no money for a redesign of the prism. There does not even seem to be any awareness of the problem (I can even hear you say: "No, no, the finder is GREAT!")
I appreciate the new Schneider lenses with the new leaf shutters, but with my H3D I had a leaf shutter in every lens, from the moment I bought it. I don´t have to worry, if the very lens I need for the job happens to have a leaf shutter or not. Many of the pictures I did during the last 4 1/2 years (for example a businessman in the midday sunlight), I could not have done with a focal plane shutter.
So WHY should Hasselblad not be there any more? And why do YOU worry?
Best,
Bernd
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Bernd, you're so right... all those speculations about the health of Hasselblad ::)... while some are asking questions about the futur of the company, others are taking photos and are working on their art, their business, thinking about how to build their career or improve their technic. You can do professional pictures with every already Hasselblad existing equipment, so why waiting the next business plan ?
I've read someone who told "there is no pro using all Hassy equipement"... hum hum... should see what Jarvis, Grecco, Napolitano can do just with the "kit".
The only thing that makes me dream, is bigger sensor size, not pixels. What about a 6*7 or 6*6 sensors... with 0,9µ pixels That's the true futur of MFD !
:)
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I gotta admit, only here will you find photographers bickering and mad because the price of a camera came down. ::) That said, I do believe Hassy and Phase may be having issues because the photography market is not exactly doing stellar right now and from what I understand of others in the mid-high end commercial market, there's more photographers using 35mm equipment then ever before. And why not? If photo budgets are plummeting, are photographers as a whole really wanting to spend $50k on a MF system? And have you seen the quality of some ad campaigns of late? It's like society's expectation of quality has plummeted. What Hassy has done poorly from my point of view is to close the system off so severely to other manufacturers. Even with the H4, at least they brought film back into the mix (yes, there are many photogs still shooting film) and outside backs but you can't use Hassy backs on it from what I understand? I want MF to do extremely well but I believe they need to stay extremely competitive and come up with some innovations and stop with the closed design games. Hassy might also be smart to get into the high end 35mm range finder game and target the Leica market. Another issue to fight is the dumbing down of consumers driving the viewpoint that the D800 is a MF killer. I mean really, how many times have you heard that phrase in the past few years. It's like consumers are so wanting MF to do off because it makes them get that shiver up their leg that their camera is better than what the top pros use :D.
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The body of the P1 / Mamiya is crap. The weak point is the finder. The prism.
Can you please tell me what is the problem with the Mamiya 645 viewfinder+prism?
I own this body for a few years and I didn't know there was a problem.
Is it that it's not big enough?
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I'm just hoping for a medium-format panoramic body with some ultra-ultra-wide tilt-shift lenses to match, and live view capability! Something along the lines of a digital X-pan would be nice.
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Can you please tell me what is the problem with the Mamiya 645 viewfinder+prism?
I own this body for a few years and I didn't know there was a problem.
Is it that it's not big enough?
I can't say what Sbernthal says, but I use the DF, and have to say there are a few things I have issues with, in regards to the view finder.
First and foremost is the focus circle in the middle. I have been using it for a year, and it just doesn't accurately portray where the focal point is exactly... Sure in the middle but it's sloppy, and doesn't allow me to be precise.
The Prism is a little disappointing. When you make the switch from cropped to full frame, and then full frame to MF, you expect the image to be a little larger and crisper, but I honestly don't get that impression. I mean it's good, but not amazing. You certainly get this impression when you sit behind a hasselblad's viewfinder. It's large bright, while still showing what you need.
My biggest killer though, and is the one thing I want from the replacement for the DF, is a waste level view finder. I know some say 'meh' to the idea, but as I'm so tall, it makes a hard and stressful day when I spend most of it hunched over, or sitting on a wheelie stool to get to the models level.
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Can you please tell me what is the problem with the Mamiya 645 viewfinder+prism?
I own this body for a few years and I didn't know there was a problem.
Is it that it's not big enough?
Just go check out a H4 or Rollei Hy6/AFi and you'll see immediately. Being able to change out the finder to 45 or 90 degree prisms, lupe style or WLF finder is just icing on the cake.
But another big issue I had with the DF finder is the long long time it is black between frames. You click, then the mirror goes up and its black then a long time later the shutter fires, then a long long time later the mirror goes back down. On the DF this seems like forever compared to the Hy6. You lose your position with the model or subject in that time.
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I wonder *if* I will ever really witness the day when some of these 6 year old debunked myths will finally fade away...(exactly how long did it take once proven the world was round, to extinguish flat-world arguments?)
If you have not had a good experience with the Hasselblad camera and software, then I would invite you to spend a few professional minutes with a competent operator who can show you how it works for many photographers who are busy delivering files to clients. For money. To pay for stuff.
Bang the drum, Hasselblad has a new color "What were they thinking?" Again. To sell red cameras to photographers who want to buy them. Not for everybody - but enough demand to make and sell them. The key point here is to understand about making the right product for the person who wants to buy it.
I agree 1000 times over that Hasselblad could improve the Alice in Wonderland impression of what's going on behind the curtain to avoid speculation that leads to Tales of Wizards. I find in business, few companies are wide-open when in talks of mergers/acquisitions, so I get it. FaceBook IPO, right?
Nick-T and several others are right, Photokina will be the proving ground of what's new.
Feel free to reach out to me if you believe any of the above statements are inconsistent with what you know to be the truth, I enjoy providing additional insight and information to contribute to your personal decision.
...and maybe showing you some stuff about the 'blad you may not have known :)
John