Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: jessterb on May 22, 2012, 11:25:05 am
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Hi all, while I’ve been here before, it’s my first time posting in this forum. I realize my subject line is a loaded question, but please bear with me. :)
I’ve been shooting Canon for a few years now and currently have a Canon 5DmkIII. While this may seem strange to some, I actually love the rich warm colors Nikon delivers and am trying to get my canon files to look like more or less like that.
To give you an idea, if you visit danielaguilarblog.com, this is a perfect example as this photographer shoots in JPEG (with his Nikon D700), so what you see is very close to SOOC. Obviously different lighting will yield different results, but I find the tones in Nikon files to simply have a nice golden/brown-ish/tan-ish look to them… as opposed to the orange/yellow (yet often red-ish) tones I’m getting when bumping up the temperature and adjusting my canon files in lightroom.
I’ve worked with the HSL sliders, curves, split tones, etc, for countless hours… but I just can’t get that rich subtle golden look of the Nikon files.
Can I accomplish what I’m trying to accomplish via camera calibration perhaps?
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Did you try adjusting the temp slider more towards yellow?
Neil
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Hi Neil,
Yes, but I get more yellow (and orange) 'pee-like' by doing that.
I can reduce the orange by playing around with the HSL orange saturation and luminosity and while that helps a bit in that area, it also flattens out the skin tones (ie. I don't get the richness of the Nikon warm tones). And again, that does help get rid of the "too yellow" warm look, as opposed to the golden/tab/brown tones.
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I might be totally wrong, but those photographs do not look like SOOC, at least not with default parameters. Most cameras these days have a range of controls to adjust in-camera jpgs, from contrast/saturation, to various profiles (landscape, portrait, etc.) to various "art filters".
The only way to really compare two cameras is to shoot side by side with default parameters and then compare the results and try to match one to another.
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close to SOOC :)
he shoots in JPG and does some dodging and burning in photoshop, but that's it.
Here's another exampled I managed to find (incidently someone else asking the same or question as me), this one with an image completely SOOC:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/weddingphoto/discuss/72157626762577636/
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Again, how do we know if it is really SOOC or close? And, as I mentioned above, SOOC does not mean much if parameters were adjusted in-camera. The next big (really big) issue is the light in the picture. If daylight, then what time of day, direction, reflective surfaces (say a lot of brick walls or similar might influence the color), under/over exposure... if mixed light, who knows what was the proportion of the various light sources, etc. etc.,
Take these examples, of my 13-year old daughter, shot with a Canon in an alley with a lot of brick walls, within minutes of each other. Those might not be the colors you are after, but their purpose is to illustrate different light sources and their impact on color.
Shot #1 was done backlighted.
Shot #2 is a result of pure happenstance: there was a car passing behind my back and reflecting low sunlight back into her face. There is no way you are ever going to match that color, no matter what presets you might use as, for instance, we do not know the color of the car.
Shot #3 was illuminated directly by the setting sun, with brick walls around serving as reflectors
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I can’t offer any guarantees, but he’s said so himself and I can tell you it’s not his character to lie about it. Also, whatever parameters would have been adjusted in-camera would be basic stuff… all basic stuff that could be just as easily adjusted in lightroom shooting RAW.
I’m not sure if you saw the flickr link I included, but there was also an example of the warm and rich Nikon tones I was referring to:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2705/5740371895_24c4eba5a5_b.jpg
Per the poster, that shot is SOOC (taken at 9am with overcast conditions).
So unless a bunch of Nikon photographers out there are lying about their shots SOOC :) I can see a similarity in the tones from one Nikon shooter to another… and am trying to find out a way to see if I can somehow get my canon files to more or less look the same.
Thanks for sharing those examples and yes, I absolutely agree about different lighting conditions and other variables affecting the colors/tones. I know that in my case, I especially notice the yellow orange look of my canon files when I’m processing RAW images I shot in direct 2pm harsh lighting. And while it’s not as yellow orange when I’m shooting indoors natural light (white walls), it’s still very different than the warm tones that my Nikon buddies get…
… which brings me back to my original question, whether or not it’s something I could possibly get with my Canon files from within Lightroom.
I’m now looking at getting a colorchecker chart and creating some custom camera profiles, but wondering if this will really help achieve what I’m after?
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I have a feeling we are talking past each other. My position is that there is no way those examples you posted are representative of so-called Nikon colors, nor they are a result of default settings. If those are SOOC colors, something is seriously wrong with that camera.
You have not posted any link or quote to support that those are SOOC. Take, for example, the last link you posted above: the image in that link has a significantly different color than the same image on his blog, so which one is "Nikon color"?
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For that last example, I think you may have confused the author of the image with the OP of that thread. Go back to the original flickr link of that image in question (http://www.flickr.com/groups/weddingphoto/discuss/72157626762577636/) and scroll down halfway through the page, you’ll see the author of that image (nessa k) posted 3 examples of it: SOOC, LR edit and Alien Skin edit.
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...you’ll see the author of that image (nessa k) posted 3 examples of it: SOOC, LR edit and Alien Skin edit.
You'll also note that she claims "I really do just use a modified Kodak Ultra Color 100UC with no grain. " That's a color neg film. So, it seems she's not even shooting digital which basically blows this discussion up...
Look, in LR it's all about getting your image to look the way you want it to look. There are several ways of adjusting color (depending on what version of LR you are using) to get a desaturated very warm look to an image...pretty easy to pull the saturation on the image, add warmth from Temp/Tint and then paint in a warming color using the adjustment brush or doing a global Split Tone adjustment. In LR 4 you can use RGB color curves to further edit color casts.
The thing you need to get past is camera brand having some magic impact on the rendering of an image. If you shoot raw, the image can look pretty much any way you want them to look if you know how to do it in post.
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She’s referring to the ‘Kodak Ultra Color 100UC’ filter in the Alien Skin software. She actually uses a Nikon D700 from what I could quickly gather (http://www.formspring.me/nessak/q/245313237568988990).
Please trust me, with the investment I have in Canon gear, I don’t want to get stuck into looking at another brand as the magic answer. I simply started this thread because, for a while now, I’ve noticed that Nikon warm tones are clearly different than Canon’s, which I personally feel has been confirmed by seeing SOOC photos (like the one I shared) and other times I’ve gotten to see SOOC files (such as at a workshop). I’ve also heard other working professionals claim that you just can’t get Nikon files to look like Canon and vice versa, as I guess you could say that’s somewhat what I’m trying to do, in a way.
Now, while I’d prefer my files to have that look SOOC - giving me a better/easier starting point with less work to do - I’m certainly not against trying to achieve that look with some post processing love. Unfortunately, I feel that no matter what I’ve tried thus far (saturation, temp/tin, HSL sliders, split tone, etc), I never end up with the right balance… and so I thought maybe my starting point (in the post processing) might not be a “good” one and I could perhaps look at creating custom camera profiles as a possible solution. If anyone would like to comment on that, as to whether or not custom camera profiles might help achieve the look I’m after, I’d be most grateful.
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... I’ve also heard other working professionals claim that you just can’t get Nikon files to look like Canon and vice versa...
And both are galaxies away from the Leica "look" (which can only be approached, but only remotely so, by the Zeiss "look" - sarcasm alert). Well, if you are in that school of thought (or shall I say "school of belief", because thinking has very little to do with it), I am afraid there is no one here who could really help you.
We are going in circles here.
You keep insisting there is such a thing as "Nikon golden/brown" color. So far two people on this forum told you it ain't so. Now, I like to think of myself as a guy who knows a thing or two about a thing or two, but forget about me, Jeff Schewe is the expert. We also keep telling you that your insistence on SOOC "proofs" is misguided, as any SOOC jpeg is a result of several parameters and numerous possible combinations that can impact color (contrast, saturation, tint, white balance, exposure).
... If anyone would like to comment on that, as to whether or not custom camera profiles might help achieve the look I’m after, I’d be most grateful.
You see, it is quite possible to achieve "the look you are after", but it ain't "Nikon golden/brown look". It would be a specific look achievable by any camera on the market, most likely the key component of which would be a Cloudy or Shade white balance.
But again, do not trust me. Let's see what your hero (Nessa, the photographer whose examples you posted) has to say on that subject:
I take photos with the white balance incredibly... too too warm
You can see from the SOOC image that my exposure was off
I don't want you to think that the secret to nice photos is in the post processing. Good lighting, styling, and watching your backgrounds will get you everywhere.
Now, isn't that all what Jeff and I have been telling you? Has Nessa credited Nikon for her colors?
Once again, do not trust "experts" or even experts. Do it yourself, grab a Nikon buddy, set both cameras to default settings and the same white balance and see for yourself whether you would get images that much different (there will be some difference, of course, as each manufacturer would have slightly different default parameters, and certain lenses might transmit slightly warmer colors than others, but those differences are nowhere near the look you are after).
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Try pulling down the main Saturation and pumping up the Temp and to get an amber highlight add a Split Tone in the highlights.
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I am scratching my head over this one. I use a Canon g12 and a Nikon d700 and a Nikon d300 on a regular basis. I find - and a lot of others - that the Canon is described as warm colour wise and the Nikon to be cool. I admit I didn't look at all the images but for someone to see the reverse is strange? BTW what is SOOC?
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BTW what is SOOC?
Straight out of camera
As other have pointed out a completely useless term given the amazing range of 'looks' you can get by altering the camera's parameters for JPGs.
In Lightroom a preset is probably the best answer.
Camera calibration, whilst a very powerful and useful tool, only has a limited range of effect compared to the image destruction capabilities of a radical preset.
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Thanks for your responses, I’m sorry if I’ve upset anyone.
Jeff, thanks, I’ll keep playing with my adjustments and give that a try, much appreciated.
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Thanks for your responses, I’m sorry if I’ve upset anyone...
Nobody is upset, just trying to help. Although I understand that the answers so far are not those you hoped to get.
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Not at all, in fact quite the opposite. My biggest fear would be that I can’t get the look I’m going after without switching system. I’ll keep playing around.
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Not at all, in fact quite the opposite. My biggest fear would be that I can’t get the look I’m going after without switching system. I’ll keep playing around.
It' very easy to see a beautiful photograph and be seduced by the idea that some piece of equipment or brand of camera will reproduce that for you - most of us have been there at some point.
For example the pictures posted above illustrate the point, the mood, the relationship between the couple, the depth of field, the quality of the light, and yes, the colour all contribute to what you enjoy about the picture. Assuming all other things being equal, the colour would probably be the easiest thing to replicate in even fairly basic software. All the other qualities you probably like about these pictures are down to other factors. Probably the only thing that is equipment dependant would be the depth of field, because a very wide aperture has been used in this picture and so a particular 'fast' lens would be needed. In other respects probably an iPhone could have been used. I am of course talking only about the picture of the couple sat looking out of frame!
Jim
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Not wishing to muddy the waters or anything, but the little Nikon P&S cameras we used at work certainly had a "look" to the jpegs, which was nothing much to do with realistic representation of the scene. The one I've got here now, an old Coolpix 4600, is a good example. It tends to really exagerate the saturation of colours in a hard to define fashion. And it certainly pumps up yellows. Mostly the pix look very nice - it's only if you take a print back to the subject that you realise how much reality has been improved.
John
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Not wishing to muddy the waters or anything, but the little Nikon P&S cameras we used at work ....
With respect you are.
This thread is dealing with the output of one of the finest DSLRs available, not some cheap camera with very limited options.
The choice of how "SOOC" files look is very wide ranging if you use all the options available, when using RAW almost anything is possible.
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Not sure if this would be the look you are after, but just as an example - my preference (LR Cloudy WB) on the left, "golden/brown look" on the right:
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Jess,
something else seriously to consider is trying another converter.
Much as I appreciate Lr, I'll bet that Capture One gets you much closer to your aspirations here - it's pretty well known for its rich colour rendition.
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For that last example, I think you may have confused the author of the image with the OP of that thread. Go back to the original flickr link of that image in question (http://www.flickr.com/groups/weddingphoto/discuss/72157626762577636/) and scroll down halfway through the page, you’ll see the author of that image (nessa k) posted 3 examples of it: SOOC, LR edit and Alien Skin edit.
So SOOC, a LR edit and Alien Skin is about as far away from SOOC as you can get. If you are really smitten with this effect I suggest Alien Skin is your first port of call followed by a little more adjusting in LR. Another factor that you have not mentioned is the lighting. Very hard to get the same look with different light.
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It's not the camera, its the time of day....and possibly a fill gold reflector.
Bottom line, it's the light, or not sooc.....and looking at it again, the mix of examples I do see at least one with warmer added to roughly 245 and below illumination. since ther eare many ways to skin a cat, your interpretation may vary on that ;)
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Hi guys, sorry to sound like a d**k considering I'm new and all here but you're all wrong. Jesterb is completely right, tones like this are quite possible SOOC (more SOOC than RAW actually) and I have the answer to this conundrum! :) This is based on working with the master of warm tones himself recently (Daniel Aguilar) and having a similar issue trying to match up my Sony files with what I get out of the Nikon. If you care about this an want to know more PM Me!
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Hi guys, sorry to sound like a d**k ...
You do... but apology duly noted ;)
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Hi guys, sorry to sound like a d**k considering I'm new and all here but you're all wrong.
Snip...
If you care about this an want to know more PM Me!
Yeah, you are new here and posting a message on a thread telling people to PM you for more information completely defeats the purpose of having a public discussion forum...if you have information to share, share it...if you are soliciting recruits (which is what it seems like) forget about it...
So, you say we're all wrong? Prove it bud...
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Am i glad i use lightroom developing my raw images, i work together with two photogs both use canon, i use nikon.
no problem in getting the color look of the different cameras quite similar. Which is great if together you do the photography of a marriage. Personally i do not care at all for what apparently is a canon or a nikon look. Only in my own look and signature of my photos.
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We use both Canon and Nikon gear, my experience is that both are silimar-ish, with if anything the nikon very slightly cooler (default settings) it was popular at one time for shooters to "dial in" some warmth in the cameras custom settings, I wonder if thats a factor here?
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The DNG Profile Editor allows to swap the look between Nikon and Canon for example,
means to create a profile for a Nikon camera but with a Canon-matching-table, or vice versa.
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Hi guys, sorry to sound like a d**k considering I'm new and all here but you're all wrong. Jesterb is completely right, tones like this are quite possible SOOC (more SOOC than RAW actually) and I have the answer to this conundrum! :) This is based on working with the master of warm tones himself recently (Daniel Aguilar) and having a similar issue trying to match up my Sony files with what I get out of the Nikon. If you care about this an want to know more PM Me!
You sound like someone who has just parachuted in from the jungles of dpreview? I think you will find that the members here have a little more decorum and it would possibly be better to introduce yourself in a more friendly manner? ;)
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If these are SOOC files, maybe he has adjusted the Camera Profile to accomplish the look. The Nikon D700 has 8 camera profiles available for use in the camera. The profiles are D2X Mode 1, D2X Mode 2, D2X Mode 3, Standard, Neutral, Portrait, Landscape, and Vivid - not all of these are already installed in the camera, but are available to load into the camera. You can also make adjustment to the Profiles in the camera. Adjustments available are Hue (-3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3), Contrast (-3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, A), Saturation (-3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, A), Brightness (-1, 0, +1), and Sharpness (0 through 9, A), where A is Automatic. You can also modify the Tone Curve using Picture Control Software and load these into the camera.
You can duplicate all of these in Lightroom or ACR. You duplicate Hue using the Primary Red, Green, and Blue Hue adjustments and set all three to eaual values. You can also do the same for Saturation by using the Primary Red, Green, and Blue Saturation adjustments by setting all three to the same value. Set Contrast by using custom curves. Set Brightness using Exposure and Sharpness using the sharpness settings.
What you don't have is profiles for your Canon camera with the Nikon look. You can generate these using the DNG Profile Editor, which is described in the "Adobe DNG Profile Editor Tutorial" PDF that is available on the Adobe Site (see Tutorial 2).
http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/cs6/DNGProfile_EditorDocumentation.pdf
I have a D700 and tried the following using Nikon Capture NX2. I selected Portrait as the profile to use, set Hue to +2, Saturation to +1, and Contrast to +1. This appears to be in the right direction to duplicate what you want. I then tried this is Adobe Camera RAW (Photoshop CS6), selected Camera Portrait v4, set Primary Red, Green, and Blue Hue to +14, set Primary Red, Green, and Blue Saturation to +7, and selected Medium Curve for the Point curve instead of the Straight Line that is the default for ACR7.2. Try this in Lightroom with you Canon file using the Camera Portrait for the profile.
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What you don't have is profiles for your Canon camera with the Nikon look. You can generate these using the DNG Profile Editor, which is described in the "Adobe DNG Profile Editor Tutorial" PDF that is available on the Adobe Site (see Tutorial 2).
http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/cs6/DNGProfile_EditorDocumentation.pdf
The method I was referring to does not seem to be documented:
With a "Canon DNG" opened in the Profile Editor, go to Color Tables > Base Profile > Choose external profile … and select any Nikon Camera Matching profile as shipped. Hence, the profiles are blended under the hood, and the initial Canon profile gets furnished with a Nikon-look-table. No further work needed, just export the new profile.
Peter
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then deleted.
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Just a quick note: the OP left the thread in May, just one day after he started it. The thread was his only presence on LuLa. I am not saying we shouldn't keep discussing the issue, though, perhaps for the benefit of other people with similar questions. Just saying that the OP apparently did not like what he heard here and left.
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Just a quick note: the OP left the thread in May, just one day after he started it. The thread was his only presence on LuLa. I am not saying we shouldn't keep discussing the issue, though, perhaps for the benefit of other people with similar questions. Just saying that the OP apparently did not like what he heard here and left.
Thanks for the history briefing and I just removed my above comments to keep this place tidy.
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Just a quick note: the OP left the thread in May, just one day after he started it. The thread was his only presence on LuLa. I am not saying we shouldn't keep discussing the issue, though, perhaps for the benefit of other people with similar questions. Just saying that the OP apparently did not like what he heard here and left.
The other one shot wonder was sonywedtog - the thread was dead until he appeared on 8 nov 12.
Oh well, it was surely entertaining for a while - I enjoyed the repartee.
Glenn
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I know this is an old post and I came upon it by Googling just the opposite: I have a Nikon D7000 and I'd like to get the pics to look more like my Canon 6D. I haven't found an answer yet - just started looking - but am in complete agreement with you that the two manufacturers have different tonal "signatures" if you like. My joke is that Canon is Scotland and Nikon is Brazil. A few pros I've talked to concur that the Nikons are generally warmer toned than the Canons. I hope you've found a solution in the meantime. Just wanted to let you know there are some folks out here who are on your wavelength. :)
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In my experience it's the reverse when it comes to tones Nikon cooler and Canon warmer.
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If I remember my remedial Kindergarten correctly, you forgot the "L." Welcome to LuLa. - Jim