Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: dreed on May 10, 2012, 05:01:22 pm
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This will be one interesting camera to see reviewed!
AA Filter? No.
Bayer matrix? No.
Colour filter? No.
ISO? 320 - 10000 (How strange is this?!)
Raw files? 14bit DNG (somebody got the memo!)
But what I have the most trouble understanding is why they kept such a relatively low resolution screen on the back.
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I understand the ISO starts at 160 like the M8.
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I understand the ISO starts at 160 like the M8.
It's called "Pull 160". Does that mean that it is actually 320 but that they underexpose or...?
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It means they apply negative gain.
But really what it means is that Leica has once again narrowed it's already narrow niche. I wonder when it will actually ship?
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... why they kept such a relatively low resolution screen on the back.
To discourage chimping?
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It's called "Pull 160". Does that mean that it is actually 320 but that they underexpose or...?
It means that the base ISO speed (defined in terms of having a bit over three stops of headroom between mid-tone exposure and full wells) is 320, and the 160 setting overexposes by one stop and then lowers the levels to compensate. So it loses one stop of headroom between mid-tones and full wells, but handles shadows one stop better. The "pull down" of levels could be done either by halving the analog gain or by shifting the digital output.
There is no "negative gain" here because base ISO speed has nothing to do with "unity gain", a concept that is meaningless because of the conversions from charge to voltage (and then to digital levels). The analog gain is measured in units of mV per electron, with no posibility of a value of "unity", since it is not a number but has physical dimensions and so the numerical value depends on the units chosen.
To elaborate, the base ISO speed is the exposure index that causes a suitably illuminated 18% subject to give a signal in the photosites of 12.7% of saturation (full wells). See under "saturation based speed" at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_speed
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I fear that Leica's staying with the obsolescent 18MP Kodak CCD of the M9 (while it is using a Sony CMOS sensor in the X2) is cancelling out all of the advantages of removing the CFA, and that B&W conversions from the D800 will offer as much resolution, more dynamic range, and less shadow noise, along with the wonderful flexibility of effectively experimenting with filter choice afterward. Not to mention losing the possibility of Live View manual focusing. And the $5000 price difference.
I suppose that Leica is now mostly down to catering to those who prefer its excellent lenses.
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So, to put it in "practical" terms.
Is there an advantage to use 160 or do you better keep it at 320?
I guess there is no difference in noise levels between both ISO then.
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My review is now online.
ISO 320 is now the base ISO. ISO 160 is a pull, which means reduced dynamic range.
Michael
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Is there an advantage to use 160 or do you better keep it at 320?
I guess there is no difference in noise levels between both ISO then.
If the highlights do not go too far above the mid-tone placement (no more than about two stops) then there can be an advantage in noise levels to using EI 160 vs EI 320 both "on meter", because then the 160 option is doubling the exposure and so gathering twice as much light at each photosite and improving the signal to noise ratio. Of course you could also overexpose by one stop at 320 (that is, use EI 160 with the camera set at 320) and then lower the tone curve afterwards to get the mid-tones back where you want them, so the "push" is just a convenience.
Many other digital cameras offer a similar feature, under names like "LO".
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To discourage chimping?
;D
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It means that the base ISO speed (defined in terms of having a bit over three stops of headroom between mid-tone exposure and full wells) is 320, and the 160 setting overexposes by one stop and then lowers the levels to compensate. So it loses one stop of headroom between mid-tones and full wells, but handles shadows one stop better. The "pull down" of levels could be done either by halving the analog gain or by shifting the digital output.
There is no "negative gain" here because base ISO speed has nothing to do with "unity gain", a concept that is meaningless because of the conversions from charge to voltage (and then to digital levels). The analog gain is measured in units of mV per electron, with no posibility of a value of "unity", since it is not a number but has physical dimensions and so the numerical value depends on the units chosen.
To elaborate, the base ISO speed is the exposure index that causes a suitably illuminated 18% subject to give a signal in the photosites of 12.7% of saturation (full wells). See under "saturation based speed" at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_speed
Or you could do it properly with a cheap roll of film and expose for the shadows dev for the highlights and loose nothing.
This sounds like reinventing the wheel with corners on.
Kevin.
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A monocromatic sensor does have better resolving power than a regular color one, but that is the only positive thing about this "new invention". What is lost is the infinite manipulation possibilities what PS, Lightroom etc give us to adjust how the colors are interpreted in the B&W image. This is a huge downside, I mean HUGE. The person buying this camera must fulfill several criteria: wealthy, likes B&W, interested in photography, does no know anything about digital photography and the B&W manipulation possibilities it affords. How many of those are there in the world?
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A monocromatic sensor does have better resolving power than a regular color one, but that is the only positive thing about this "new invention". What is lost is the infinite manipulation possibilities what PS, Lightroom etc give us to adjust how the colors are interpreted in the B&W image. This is a huge downside, I mean HUGE. The person buying this camera must fulfill several criteria: wealthy, likes B&W, interested in photography, does no know anything about digital photography and the B&W manipulation possibilities it affords. How many of those are there in the world?
Not if the colour sensor is an 18MP Foveon sensor - then they'll have the same resolution, only that one has colour and the other doesn't.
This is a very, very specialised tool, though, and may not even suit most people who primarily produce monochrome output. With a regular colour sensor, you can apply colour filters in post-processing, including using different filters in different parts of the image. With a monochrome sensor, you need to use colour filters at the time of shooting (there goes your ISO and resolution advantage already), with no option to fine-tune it in post-processing.
But, just like Canon's recent 60D astrophotography camera, I don't think it's meant to be a high-volume product (even by Leica's standards). It's certainly not the replacement for the M9.
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The person buying this camera must fulfill several criteria: wealthy, likes B&W, interested in photography, does no know anything about digital photography and the B&W manipulation possibilities it affords. How many of those are there in the world?
ever been to china?
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ever been to china?
Not since -85. Why do you ask?
;D
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I find this monochrome version of the M to be a good idea.
But... did I read the price of the new 50mm f2 APO right?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Not since -85. Why do you ask?
;D
1,3billion people, millions so rich that they dont know what to do with the money and since german products are pretty much popular here(i live in beijing) you can count 1 + 1
i guess alot of those MMs will go to china
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1,3billion people, millions so rich that they dont know what to do with the money and since german products are pretty much popular here(i live in beijing) you can count 1 + 1
i guess alot of those MMs will go to china
Chinese don't do monochrome…
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To discourage chimping?
To encourage squints.
;-)
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I'd love a monochrome sensor with an auto rotating filter wheel. That would be bad ass for landscapes.
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1,3billion people, millions so rich that they dont know what to do with the money and since german products are pretty much popular here(i live in beijing) you can count 1 + 1
i guess alot of those MMs will go to china
Indeed, and there is a rumour (unconfirmed) that a Chinese person offered to buy the entire stock of the limited edition Titanium M9 when it was released at Photokina. His offer was apparently turned down.
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Indeed, and there is a rumour (unconfirmed) that a Chinese person offered to buy the entire stock of the limited edition Titanium M9 when it was released at Photokina. His offer was apparently turned down.
That would be a color version. The Chinese don't do monochrome, because monochrome is associated with death. And although they are total suckers for top-end branding, like Hermes, if something is remotely associated with death, the chinese try to avoid it like the plague.
Russians on the other hand...
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dpr has sample images up. Some of them look atrocious - you simply can not over expose with this sensor and get a good result. Once a pixel has clipped, there is no recovery possible. Wonderful clarity but a lot of highlight clipping and blocked shadows.
I don't think I could live with a camera that has the apparent dynamic range of a sensors from 14 years ago - look at this example: http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/reviewsamples/photos/1950533/l1000332-dng?inalbum=leica-m-monochrom-preview-samples
Hopefully there are some conversion improvements to be seen.
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http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/05/10/Leica-announces-M-Monochrom-18MP-Full-Frame-Mono-Rangefinder#press
To allow precise control of tonal values, the Leica M Monochrom offers a raw data histogram display to exhibit original, unprocessed and unmodified raw data. This, combined with a configurable clipping display, allows precise correction or optimization of exposures.
Someone's been listening to Guillermo :-)
Am I right that base ISO have been changed from ISO160 to ISO320 compared to the M9? Does this correspond to an increase in total photon efficiency by a factor of 2x due to removal of CFA?
-h
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I'd love a monochrome sensor with an auto rotating filter wheel. That would be bad ass for landscapes.
Any movement could give annoying discolored edges.
Are you sure that this is preferreable over stitching or multi-shot super resolution?
-h
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http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/05/10/Leica-announces-M-Monochrom-18MP-Full-Frame-Mono-
Am I right that base ISO have been changed from ISO160 to ISO320 compared to the M9?
Does this correspond to an increase in total photon efficiency by a factor of 2x due to removal of CFA?
Yes to the first; almost certainly yes to the second.
Looking at the Quantum Efficiency curves for various Kodak monochrome and color CCDs, the former typically have about twice the QE, and so twice the saturation-based minimum ISO speed.
Look at the 60% QE of the monochrome KAF16803 for example at
http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Image_Sensor_Solutions/Products/Full_Frame_CCD.htm
But do not look only at the peak QE at selected colors for the color versions but instead look at the overall curves, where the average seems to be around 30% or less.
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A monocromatic sensor does have better resolving power than a regular color one, but that is the only positive thing about this "new invention". What is lost is the infinite manipulation possibilities what PS, Lightroom etc give us to adjust how the colors are interpreted in the B&W image. This is a huge downside, I mean HUGE. The person buying this camera must fulfill several criteria: wealthy, likes B&W, interested in photography, does no know anything about digital photography and the B&W manipulation possibilities it affords. How many of those are there in the world?
Michael was right in his review, "Let's get the poo pooing out of the way first. A lot of people simply are not going to get it. "It" being the need for an expensive digital M Leica that only shoots in B&W. That's OK. This camera then is simply not for you. So lighten up, and recognize that there are people for whom the rangefinder ethos and the monochrome aesthetic is a passion and a calling. There's nothing elitist going on, just a different mindset and sensibility than yours.
Frankly, it's going to be depressing to read some of the online forums over the next few weeks, where self-proclaimed experts are going to question the raison d'etre of the M Monochrom"
Some people get that less is more. Having color stripped away from the photographer, liberates them to concentrate on tonality, and design elements. As far as not being able to adjust how the colors are interpreted in Lightroom, well thats a relief isn't it - less time in Lightroom ;) Of course when shooting one can always put a color filter on, to get much of those effects in the camera. Admittedly not as flexible as doing it in post, but that is OK with me. On the up side you would see the effects of the color filter immediately in the field when chimping.
I won't be getting one, cause I already have an M9. If I were buying now I would get the MM. I would like an M10-monochrome that is not to different with same simple controls, but adds live view and focus assist with higher resolution. I hope when Leica brings out an M10 they concurrently bring out a monochrome version. If they do, they can count on selling at least one - to me :)
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No doubt we will see some great colour pictures with the MM via the Maxwell principle.
Kevin
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As far as not being able to adjust how the colors are interpreted in Lightroom, well thats a relief isn't it - less time in Lightroom ;)
;) Nice one, Tim.
Somehow (heaven knows how, looking back now) I managed for years to make B/W pictures from film, both in the darkroom and later scanned and processed in PS, without having the marvellous advantages of being able to convert from a colour original. Poor old me, how dreadfully deprived I was - but strangely, those older pictures still look pretty good. In fact, thinking about it, pretty much just as good as these wonderful digital colour conversions to B/W that I'm doing now. But I must be mistaken, musn't I?
John
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The abundance of choice can be as crippling as the lack of. Some people find self-imposed limitations to be rather stimulating and quite liberating, creatively speaking, allowing them to concentrate on the subject, rather then equipment. Some, on the other hand, prefer to fiddle with the abundance of choice, for hours or days, in front of the computer. To each their own. There are no rights or wrongs here, just preferences. And no point in showing one's preferences down someone else's throat.
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Chinese don't do monochrome…
They will ;)
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Any movement could give annoying discolored edges.
Are you sure that this is preferreable over stitching or multi-shot super resolution?
-h
Of course you are right and of course that is the problem for the engineers! I know right now my camera does very fast multi-shots that it merges to a HDR. The details at 100% are high quality (for a jpg) with no smearing of static subjects. I don't think its that big a problem for them.
Many times I have imagined a shutter with coloured rows to replace the bayer array. R, black, green, black, blue, black. The shutter is a hard sheet that moves down driven by a solenoid. The raw file is a stack of images 'de-interlaced' by the PC. The problem is sales would be limited to people doing static subjects. People not understanding the limitations could make a warranty return nightmare.
It would still be all colour capture at every photo-site for those of us that want that. You can even add C,M,Y for massive colour accuracy.
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... did I read the price of the new 50mm f2 APO right?..
Bernard
I am more interested in the 50mm lens then in the Leica camera ( that probably does not resolve half of the quality of the lens - also you can't focus exact)
On the other hand Nikon published a technical guide for the d800. Here they list lenses that should do the job- Not one 50mm lens there!
There most expensive 50mm lens is 350 € ! It is time for something better there...
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Still a steal compared to the Leica 50mm f/0.95 Noctilux-M (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/586190-REG/Leica_11_602_50mm_f_0_95_Noctilux_M_Aspherical.html) Aspherical Manual Focus Lens. Not much change from $20K for the Noctilux and MM combo.
Cheers,
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Jonathan Slack took a lot of photos in China with one (pre-prod) .. link thru GetDPI
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/leica-m-x-r/37187-m-monochrom-its-not-review-folks.html
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Still a steal compared to the Leica 50mm f/0.95 Noctilux-M (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/586190-REG/Leica_11_602_50mm_f_0_95_Noctilux_M_Aspherical.html) Aspherical Manual Focus Lens. Not much change from $20K for the Noctilux and MM combo.
If this were DPReview, I would say that the Leica M&M NEEDS a f/0.95 lens if you ever want to use it beyond the STUDIO or BRIGHT SUNLIGHT, due to the HORRIBLE noise of that CCD. Because we know that all other interesting and artistically worthwhille photography requires ISO speeds at least three stops faster than any fine-grained film ever offered.
But fortunately this is not DPReview, so there is no such silly extremist tech. spec. worshipping here.
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Michael referred to the poo-pooing of this camera, but not much has really been done in an explicit way yet...so let me be the first. I think this camera is essentially a toy. It is the equivalent of a Rolex or a 911, except that, in general, the Leicas haven't been as reliable as Rolexes or 911s, nor do they function as well, because of poor engineering and obsolescent styles of thought. I went though a Leica phase (an M7, then the M8) and found that overall, a Nikon or Canon is simply a better machine and will permit high-level users to do better work than Leicas will, because they *get out of the way.* A Leica almost never gets out of the way. People use them for the same reasons they drive a 911, which is a thoroughly impractical, silly-ass car, or wear a Rolex, which doesn't keep time very accurately. (I currently have a Panamera, not a 911, and the Panamera is also a thoroughly impractical, silly-ass car, and I won't have another.) The best I can say about these kinds of machines is that you might as well try them, if you can, and you will eventually learn for yourself that if you're really interested in the supposed end products -- good photography, telling time, driving somewhere, these are silly-ass machines and you are better off without them.
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@John and other haters: couldn't disagree with you more. For those whose vision is principally in black and white, this is the genius tool we've awaited for years. Sadly, it's mated to the monumentally ass-sucking electronics of the M8, er,um, I mean M9. If Leica could ever get all of the parts of one of their cameras to be current-tech at the same time, they'd be unstoppable.
What has not prompted howls of outrage, but should, is the price of the new 50mm 'cron. $7K??????????? Are you fucking kidding me? Seven grand for a 50mm f2? Seriously? That two 800Es and an 85 f1.4....which is just as sharp and can actually be focussed ;D
So glad I sold me M9 but not the glass. They're my new pension plan. ;)
- N.
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For those whose vision is principally in black and white, this is the genius tool we've awaited for years.
Though I am not totally down on the M&M, i have to ask how you weigh the advantages and disadvantages compared to monochrome conversions from a camera with CFA sensor, either with in-camera default conversion or later processing ... such as with the Silver Efex software bundled with the M&M, but mostly useless with it.
Valid reasons do not include:
- avoding post-processing fiddles (if you are happy to accept the fixed color sensitivity response curve of the M&M sensor, you can be equally happy with a default in-camera monochrome conversion, or an automated batch conversion in Lightroom or whatever).
- the "more is less" minimalist myth that there is something inferior about a less expensive camera that offers an option that you can easily choose to completely ignore and never use, compared to a more expensive camera that does not offer that option at all.
I do see the advantages in resolution and one stop better low light handling than the old-technology M9 (but probably no change in DR), but there are alternatives that do even better in those respects while adding the option of color and do it all at a substantially lower price.
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@John and other haters: couldn't disagree with you more. For those whose vision is principally in black and white, this is the genius tool we've awaited for years. Sadly, it's mated to the monumentally ass-sucking electronics of the M8, er,um, I mean M9. If Leica could ever get all of the parts of one of their cameras to be current-tech at the same time, they'd be unstoppable.
Something that I noticed some time ago was that an image that looks good in B&W will also be good in colour. For a while this is actually how I shot - B&W with RAW because the B&W preview told me more about whether the image worked than the limited size of the sensor would otherwise allow. At some point I stopped doing that because although I could change the preview in LR to be colour, everything else just extracts the B&W jpeg for previews, etc.
What has not prompted howls of outrage, but should, is the price of the new 50mm 'cron. $7K??????????? Are you fucking kidding me? Seven grand for a 50mm f2? Seriously? That two 800Es and an 85 f1.4....which is just as sharp and can actually be focussed
Have a peek at the MTF graphs for that lens. Almost all of the lines go straight across (at varying points) rather than doing the bumpy slide thing from left to right.
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Have a peek at the MTF graphs for that lens. Almost all of the lines go straight across (at varying points) rather than doing the bumpy slide thing from left to right.
That's not the MTF. It's the EKG of the buyer's bank account.
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Michael referred to the poo-pooing of this camera, but not much has really been done in an explicit way yet...so let me be the first. I think this camera is essentially a toy. It is the equivalent of a Rolex or a 911, except that, in general, the Leicas haven't been as reliable as Rolexes or 911s, nor do they function as well, ...
One of Michael's sayings is "horses for courses." Yes, a Porsche is "silly ass" for a trip to grocery store. But what about California's Highway 1? Or the blue ridge skyway or whatever it is called?
My Leica kit can do something no Canon or Nikon kit can. In a tiny little bag I have a FF camera and four exceedingly great lenses. The whole thing takes up less space than most of my L lenses. This has become very important to me.
The Leica doesn't pretend to duke it out with a DSLR. I don't understand when people say "well, a D800..." Does anyone say "well, a Camry is pretty good, but when I use it as a dump truck it really comes up short?"
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It is the equivalent of a Rolex or a 911, except that, in general, the Leicas haven't been as reliable as Rolexes or 911s
John, I don't think you've owned enough Porches :) I've had five Leicas and never had a problem. I wish I could say the same for the multiple Porches!
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My own two cents: This is one of the smartest things Leica has ever done.
Remember this is a niche product from a niche company. So it doesn't have to appeal to everyone, or even a large minority of people, for it to be wildly successful it that context. It also doesn't have to sell even a single copy for it to be a successful business move; the PR behind this product (which includes by definition people making fun of it on forums, in newspapers, and on TV) will have a great (free) impact on the awareness and perception of the Leica brand by it's target market. As they say, whenever everyone else zigs, it makes sense to zag. The most important part of business is often not being "better" than all your competition, but being different than the competition.
I think this is one of those things that if you don't get the appeal immediately, in a visceral and emotional way, you probably never will.
Will I be buying one anytime in the near future? Probably not. But if we had one in the shop I'd borrow it as a second camera for my personal shoots. I can't actually think of a camera I'd rather have as a second camera when I'm using an Phase One IQ as my primary camera.
The M's greatest appeal to me has always been it's minimalistic approach, tactile interface (knobs rather than menus) and it's compact size (a 2 lens kit can sit easily in a jacket pocket). Not to mention some great lenses. Well, it doesn't get more minimalistic than B+W only imaging. The majority of the M files I've ever shot have been converted to B+W, so gaining higher ISO and simplifying post-production makes sense (I wouldn't say it would be faster post-processing, since C1 can apply a B+W conversion to a hundred files in a few seconds, but having a lack of choice of how to convert it into B+W, is, for sure, a simplification).
Having less choices is sometimes a good thing. For instance I find I produce consistently better compositions and enjoy shooting more when I'm using a prime lens rather than a zoom*; in theory I should be able to produce consistently good compositions with a zoom lens. But in practice that is not what happens.
Besides if it's a must-have commercial/client frame I'm not shooting it on an M series anyway.
*not talking here about the quality of the lens, just how I interact with it.
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One other comparison not discussed much, but surely of interest to many Leica M user: a Leica M7.
That offers a choice of "sensors" with different characteristics, including a number with higher resolution: even TMAX P3200 has MTF above 50% out to beyond the Nyquist limit of this sensor, and of course TMAX 400 and 100 go even further.
P. S. The most natural comparisons are probably HP5 (my old favorite) or TMAX 400.
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Thank you, Michael, for your Monocrom review.
I am not sure if I would jump immediately to purchase one as a second digital M body, the 'not sure' is strictly financial. Prior to going digital my 35 mm work was almost exclusively black and white, I used a Hasselblad for colour work. It so happens that all my 60's and 70's vintage Leica lenses allow me to make larger, equal, OK, better prints in b&w or colour than I made in the darkroom. I kept my filters so would be ready for a Monocrom! Even the base ISO is familiar, my film of choice was HP4, HP5 and later T-Max 400 usually rated at 320. Would I get better prints from a Monocrom than from my M9 or 5D2? I do not know. But I speculate that if I had Monocrom, it would be the M9 that would be the second body.
Jean-Michel
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@John and other haters: couldn't disagree with you more. For those whose vision is principally in black and white, this is the genius tool we've awaited for years. Sadly, it's mated to the monumentally ass-sucking electronics of the M8, er,um, I mean M9. If Leica could ever get all of the parts of one of their cameras to be current-tech at the same time, they'd be unstoppable.
What has not prompted howls of outrage, but should, is the price of the new 50mm 'cron. $7K??????????? Are you fucking kidding me? Seven grand for a 50mm f2? Seriously? That two 800Es and an 85 f1.4....which is just as sharp and can actually be focussed ;D
So glad I sold me M9 but not the glass. They're my new pension plan. ;)
- N.
Beware! Stock was mine...
Rob C
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I wouldn't purchase one to replace my M9. The main thing that comes to mind is Michael's comment that 18mp B&W looks like 36mp colour (and we know what that is compared with). But pretty soon the M10 will be out (well even if not for another year it is coming), and if that is 36mp, it kind of makes the MM instantly a thing of curiosity doesn't it. With an M10 you will have a camera back to being able to do B&W and colour. And of course the current M9 can make B&W images eminently well as it is. As for the ISO samples, well I am underwhelmed, the new E-M5 looks cleaner at 1500 ISO and definitely cleaner higher up the range.
Steve
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The main thing that comes to mind is Michael's comment that 18mp B&W looks like 36mp colour (and we know what that is compared with). But pretty soon the M10 will be out (well even if not for another year it is coming), and if that is 36mp, it kind of makes the MM instantly a thing of curiosity doesn't it.
Actually, Michael said 26-32MP. As to the imagined M10: while an M10 with a good 36MP sensor would make the MM rather redundant, I do not know why you are so sure that one is coming soon, or that it is likely to come with a 36MP sensor. If Leica is indeed stuck with CCD sensors from its current supplier TrueSense (formerly Kodak's sensor division), the smallest pixel size in the current "TrueSense" designs is 6 microns, giving only 24MP.
In fact, a worrying sign is that the MM did not even move to that newer 6 micron pixel design, which has improvements in other characteristics over the older Kodak pixel design in the M9 and MM and is used in the newer sensor for the S2. This suggests that Leica cannot justify a new 36x24mm sensor updated to current Kodak technology, due to its reliance on a custom sensor used only in the M cameras. Leica certainly adds to the cost of is products by not sharing its Kodak sensors, the way that MF back makers do.
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You said:
As to the imagined M10: while an M10 with a good 36MP sensor would make the MM rather redundant, I do not know why you are so sure that one is coming soon, or that it is likely to come with a 36MP sensor. If Leica is indeed stuck with CCD sensors from its current supplier TrueSense (formerly Kodak's sensor division), the smallest pixel size in the current "TrueSense" designs is 6 microns, giving only 24MP.
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It appears that from interviews with Leica Execs this past week, other sites are reporting that a new Leica M10 will be announced in Cologne September 17th. It is reported that there is a high probability that the M10 will have a CMOS Sensor, Video and that Leica has solved the data rate, battery & heat issues.
I guess time will tell.
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It appears that from interviews with Leica Execs this past week, other sites are reporting that ... there is a high probability that the M10 will have a CMOS Sensor ...
That would be great news, especially the CMOS bit, which would suggest that Leica's new management is embracing a bit more of the 21st century. Do you have links for interviews or public statements by Leica execs, or just "word of mouth" on rumor sites? (Note: "rumor" means "noise", so as digital photographers, we should be wary of it!)
P.S. It is probably good to put aside the second and third hand readings and mis-readings of various rumor sites and just look at the primary reporting, which seems to be on the BJP site at
http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2174163/leica-hints-video-features-upcoming-m10
Some quotes:
When asked if such a new camera could include high-definition video recording features, Kaufmann said that "theoretically, yes," adding that there are some issues with introducing video in a camera - "the data rate, the heat, and the battery lifecycle, but I think we solved that. No comment until we show it on existing and new models."
He added: "HD video is interesting, and a lot of photographers would love to have it [in an M body]."
Which is promising, if non-committal, but then the cold shower:
But Leica's head of supervisory board confirmed that the brand would continue to work with Truesense Imaging, the equity firm that took over Kodak's sensor operations, to use their sensors in future models of the M series.
And Truesense Imaging has no CMOS sensor offerings at all, only full frame and interline types of CCD: see the product listings, which are still at Kodak's website:
http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Image_Sensor_Solutions/Products/Products.htm
Further, of those sensors, only the interline CCDs are capable of video output or real Live View, and those have somewhat inferior still image quality to Kodak's full frame type CCDs. It seems that CMOS sensors and video would probably only come in another product line; perhaps a new "EVIL" system.
P.P.S. Here is the quote that seems to the basis for the contradictory speculation that an M10 is coming soon with a CMOS sensor and video capability:
On M rangefinder with video/CMOS sensor: "Offering additional functions such as video and live view would extend the usability of the M camera significantly. CMOS is a prerequisite for it, therefore it will be the technology of the future".
from LeicaRumors.com: http://leicarumors.com/2011/10/25/interesting-interview-with-stefan-daniel.aspx/#ixzz1ulaQPUkO
But that vague talk of CMOS being "the technology of the future" and its being necessary for video is far short of the claim that the M series is getting either a CMOS sensor or video in the next "M10" model, coming this year.
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Wouldn't it be harmful for the Leica brand to put in a large iPhone-like LCD and CMOS with video capability? That's not how you shoot with a Leica! It should be Cartier-Bresson style :-)
It would be like putting in a japanese sports engine into a harley davidson motorcycle.
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It looks great, but for a single use camera is worth about $3000, to me any way. I'm done with Leica. The last Leica I thought was worth anything was the M6. I had two M9's and an M8. I bought an X100, just to try out, and realized that it is just better in many ways than the digital Leicas. For my use, any way. Why, you may ask? The IQ is as good for smaller print sizes, which is where my street photography ends up, it is smaller, lighter, and disposable. It has fantastic JPEGS, usable for magazine repro, which is where I used the Leicas. It has clean 3200. It has a remarkable little fill flash for editorial portraits outside. It has amazing color and a usable DR way better than the M8, maybe better than the M9. And the kicker? The biggest downfall of the Leicas, the inacurate framing, is resolved by the EVF. So what does the MM have over the X100 and a copy of Silver EFX? File size? Raw sharpness for BIG prints? Not worth the penalties, for my work.
That being said, I appreciate the effort, and would get one it they were $2000. Which isn't going to happen. I appreciate that some people may really dig it and the M9 in general. I know I do, but not for the price of crappy JPEGS, innacurate framing, odd bugs, crappy support, etc. Oh yeah, and the body alone costs as much as a Ducati Monster or a Triumph Bonneville. Or a Smart Car. Or a trip to Japan. Or an entire D800 kit. Or an entire Canon kit. Or half of a Red. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Fuji should one up them with an X whatever Monochrom, but they know that would be silly to make a camera that couldn't really be sold in the home market. But it would be a nice poke in the eye for Leia, which has garnered ill will on my part by constantly denying faults and refusing to address issues with my (now sold, for a profit!) digital Leicas.
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Fuji should one up them with an X whatever Monochrom.
Well, you can switch X-Pro1 to B&W. It is not the same as a monochrome sensor, but darn good enough. It even has red, yellow and green filters "built in"... And sepia toning.
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That would be a color version. The Chinese don't do monochrome, because monochrome is associated with death. And although they are total suckers for top-end branding, like Hermes, if something is remotely associated with death, the chinese try to avoid it like the plague.
Russians on the other hand...
Please respect and becareful what you said. dont hate because Chinese people are wealthy. I am from Hong Kong and I shoot a lot of B&W.
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Please respect and becareful what you said. dont hate because Chinese people are wealthy. I am from Hong Kong and I shoot a lot of B&W.
We call them sweeping statements, often offered in jest, and nobody really pays them much attention. I suggest you do likewise.
;-)
Best wishes,
Rob C
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porch:
(http://img4-1.southernliving.timeinc.net/i/2009/06/habersham-details/wrap-around-porch-l.jpg?400:400)
Porsche:
(http://bilder7.com/wp-content/uploads/auto-porsche_2384_1.jpg)
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What a beautiful blue!
Rob C
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We call them sweeping statements, often offered in jest, and nobody really pays them much attention. I suggest you do likewise.
;-)
Best wishes,
Rob C
Actually, that's one of the things that today is definitively better than the world for which you so often pine.
Today, what you said is considered rude and thoughtless ... and people most definitely do pay attention to such utterances.
I suggest you mind your manners.
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Chinese don't do monochrome…
In fact by a country base, Chinese do more monochrome than many other countries, and hey, it is still the country use most of the films, all sizes of films. Most of the last generation photographers were photojournalists which heavily influence present generation, heavily B&W. Chinese is specialize in B&W to begin with, for example their ink paintings.
Pingang
Shanghai
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Actually, that's one of the things that today is definitively better than the world for which you so often pine.
Today, what you said is considered rude and thoughtless ... and people most definitely do pay attention to such utterances.
I suggest you mind your manners.
Jeremy, what are you talking about!?
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What has not prompted howls of outrage, but should, is the price of the new 50mm 'cron. $7K??????????? Are you fucking kidding me? Seven grand for a 50mm f2? Seriously? That two 800Es and an 85 f1.4....which is just as sharp and can actually be focussed ;D
- N.
Not all D800 and 85 1.4 are focussing together:)
http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/07/lens-review-the-nikon-af-s-851-4-g/
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Actually, that's one of the things that today is definitively better than the world for which you so often pine.
Today, what you said is considered rude and thoughtless ... and people most definitely do pay attention to such utterances.
I suggest you mind your manners.
Jeremy, take a little nap; you'll feel far better in the morning.
In case you can't sleep, would you have time to explain what you mean?
Rob C (Puzzled, in Spain.)