Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: pjtn on May 01, 2012, 04:29:10 am
-
I've been really trying to wrap my head around Capture One, it's the biggest part keeping me from purchasing a Phase One camera system. The output is excellent but the user interface is somewhat confusing and over complicated.
As far as I can tell the library feature within Capture One is not for organising and storing photographs, how then do you do this? Do you organise in finder or do you have to purchase Media Pro as well?
Otherwise I would just use Lightroom, it seems though Phase One files don't support Lightroom very well though.
-
You will need Media Pro (Previously Expression Media, before that iView Media Pro) which is your DAM (Digital Asset Management) program from Phase1
Henrik
-
Hmm, that's a pain. Are there actually advantages to this over the simpler integrated approach of Lightroom?
-
I use PhotoMechanic and Adobe Bridge for organizing my photos. PhotoMechanic is the fastest software for that purpose as far as I know. I'm just not giving up C1 for Lightroom, since, for me, it does better job in raw conversion. Why do you need it so badly to have an "all in one" software?
-
There are obvious advantages if the program you use to manage your workflow displays your pictures' adjusted appearance, regardless of whether that program is integrated or separate. That need is fundamental to Lightroom's integrated design, and while PhaseOne's MediaPro still needs plenty of work, it can display images with their C1 adjustments. But it's always going to be difficult to carry off an "integrated but separate" line.
-
I've been using C1 for capture for a few weeks, and I'm not really sold at this point. It's really badly laid out, and overly complicated in terms of how it organizes the images. All those folders...good grief. Then, the lack of any way to archive the RAW files with their adjustments is *almost* a deal-breaker.
But, there are some things it does really well, and I'm hanging in there for a while longer in part because so many great shooters use it...I'm assuming they know what they're doing and that I'll "get it" eventually!
For now, I'm doing one of 2 things. If I like the RAW adjustments I do in C1, then I output a TIFF and take that forward as my Master file for re-touching, and pretty much leave the RAW file behind. It (the RAW file) gets archived in Lightroom along with the TIFF, but of course anything I did in C1 is lost forever.
In other cases, I just take the RAW files that C1 captures and take 'em straight into Lightroom for adjustments, and go forward from there.
-
Then, the lack of any way to archive the RAW files with their adjustments is *almost* a deal-breaker.
Have you tried to use EIP files? Those are made to group you're RAW file with all "needed" adjustment files.
-
I've been using C1 for capture for a few weeks, and I'm not really sold at this point. It's really badly laid out, and overly complicated in terms of how it organizes the images. All those folders...good grief. Then, the lack of any way to archive the RAW files with their adjustments is *almost* a deal-breaker.
But, there are some things it does really well, and I'm hanging in there for a while longer in part because so many great shooters use it...I'm assuming they know what they're doing and that I'll "get it" eventually!
For now, I'm doing one of 2 things. If I like the RAW adjustments I do in C1, then I output a TIFF and take that forward as my Master file for re-touching, and pretty much leave the RAW file behind. It (the RAW file) gets archived in Lightroom along with the TIFF, but of course anything I did in C1 is lost forever.
In other cases, I just take the RAW files that C1 captures and take 'em straight into Lightroom for adjustments, and go forward from there.
Can you please explain why you are unable to archive the raw files from Capture One with adjustments? I do it all the time, simply by backing up the complete folder to another hard disk. All of the adjustments make the journey.
Rob
-
Have you tried to use EIP files? Those are made to group you're RAW file with all "needed" adjustment files.
Alain, thanks. I had to Google that one. I just did a test in which I "packed" a RAW file as an EIP, but Lightroom can't see it, so it can't be archived in a way that would let me find it later on. I don't need LR to be able to actually alter or even accurately display the file -- I just need to be able to see that it exists (via keywords), and where it is. Then, if I wanted to start over with new RAW adjustments, I could take it back into C1. Still baffles me that C1 wouldn't be able to create a DNG with C1-specific adjustment data, and a universal preview. Again, even if other programs couldn't access the adjustment metadata, it would be a huge step forward in terms of workflow compatibility.
-
exactly!!!(I just want to see that it exists!!!!)- Scott
C1 is not designed to be a photo manager...
Nor is LR if you think about it, and actually want to use the "manager" side of LR.
I rather have that as a stand alone, as it SHOULD be in my opinion. No 1 program can handle such 2 different functions and needs...there is a short coming in any Raw dev that tries to "manage" This is why C1 is powerful..The folder structure is just as it is and "reality"! No cache data....Thats the job of a DAM/Manager that WILL see ALL image files and simply launches the app that you wish or is capable of handling...Simple!
So now ...Will Adobe or C1 license their converter to another software developer for being able to only READ the cookbook?
In my opinion a "photo manager" or DAM, should be able to see if a file is 8bit or 16bit, should see if its CMYK or RGB, Should be able to see PDF images, or at least have an option to hide or see if there are other files in a given folder...Why you ask(obvious to those that already know this)...To MANAGE!
Bridge crashes anytime I try and look at a different drive (at least when CS5 was fairly new).
ACDSee Pro or Manager is a powerful program, but has week network and week core in managing...now its focus is on being a RAW converter itself.(lame). They don't even share metadata or rating and many other hangups across Manager and Pro versions. Hello!
Though, a great app for all else and a great export options , easy to use (other serious apps can LEARN lots from the ease of use and functions/features.
IDImager looks powerful, but maybe too powerful/gotta learning curve...and without RAW view...is that curve and the app worth it and will it last in the tool kit?
Media Pro is clunky at best, and has core issues, and can't see a number of simple images, populates poorly. Beast to get going and then you see small limitations of how limited you are on export with specifics and watermarks etc.
Adobe LightRoom NEEDS to adapt to such a need..Specially when other images such as PDF, or Indesign, or Illustrator ARE the family software...
This RAW lock is not helping...At least a viewer needs to be h
-
I think that a lot depends on your organizing needs. If they are basic, then the Library in Capture One may be sufficient. It simply parallels the structure of the Finder (on a Mac). If you require more sophisticated DAM, then a cataloging program is the ticket. I have been using Media Pro, with reasonable success. It is not as fast or as smooth as I would like on my 5 year old MacPro, but it gets the job done, and it shares adjustments with C1. There are a number of other cataloging programs, but I have no experience with them. One advantage of stand alone DAM software is that it can easily be used with virtually any raw convertor or digital editing program. In my own case, I use both C1 and Raw Photo Processor (RPP) for raw conversions, depending on the image. I also use Photoshop a great deal. All of this is readily managed by Media Pro.
Rob
-
Alain, thanks. I had to Google that one. I just did a test in which I "packed" a RAW file as an EIP, but Lightroom can't see it, so it can't be archived in a way that would let me find it later on. I don't need LR to be able to actually alter or even accurately display the file -- I just need to be able to see that it exists (via keywords), and where it is. Then, if I wanted to start over with new RAW adjustments, I could take it back into C1. Still baffles me that C1 wouldn't be able to create a DNG with C1-specific adjustment data, and a universal preview. Again, even if other programs couldn't access the adjustment metadata, it would be a huge step forward in terms of workflow compatibility.
Make a complaint to Adobe that they can't handle EIP files.
Or take a look to a external DAM solution that works with those files.
-
EIP was always a dead end. The last thing anyone needed was another file format.
-
yes very true....Like in LR...I started working with it to edit the RAW and such, and then realized I'm stuck and all this Library deal with no where to go beyond the file itself...make a simple print straight from a RAW or TIF or Jpeg....Its a shame and waste of building such a Library with such limited options. I do agree, say a Travel shooter, or Fine Art shooter..No Doubt, it rocks..But production??!!! Studio work? Commercial??!! It's a brick wall.
You mention how DAM's can work with all RAW files, but in reality..They don't Maybe you were ref to Media Pro and C1, and that is correct, as it is a Phase sw, and Bridge to ACR/LR files work. But no way Media Pro is going to show you ACR adjustments.
Is it impossible to have a DAM get licenses from Adobe or CaptureOne, (and other established RAW converters) to simply preview?
If this were possible, then there is no reason to have a Porsche 993 (DAM/Manager) fitted with Mud swamping tires and go off roading (Raw developing)!!!
-
You mention how DAM's can work with all RAW files, but in reality..They don't Maybe you were ref to Media Pro and C1, and that is correct, as it is a Phase sw, and Bridge to ACR/LR files work. But no way Media Pro is going to show you ACR adjustments.
Is it impossible to have a DAM get licenses from Adobe or CaptureOne, (and other established RAW converters) to simply preview?
If this were possible, then there is no reason to have a Porsche 993 (DAM/Manager) fitted with Mud swamping tires and go off roading (Raw developing)!!!
What I meant was that I can directly open any file from Media Pro in any raw convertor or in Photoshop. You are correct that the adjustments from one program will not be carried into another, but that is not the fault of the DAM software, is it?
Rob
-
no, not the DAM's fault...or really anyone to a point. A lack of understanding of Raw developers (Adobe,C1, other majors) and their shortcomings of building a DAM. If you haven't properly by now...Get out of the way of others and licnese the raw engine at LEAST for preview.
Bridge could be very good, but its not. It crashes, not network friendly, and has very novice features and GUI
ACDSee Pro could, but it fails for crashing with large files, and often switching drives. Also colors are way off (possible to adjust, yet to try)
IDImager...brief test run...looks strong
Media Pro, clumsy and lack of stability with many file type and its just kinda a mess with the issues, and the way to execute functions (it could learn PLENTY from ACDSee interface)
-
Is it impossible to have a DAM get licenses from Adobe or CaptureOne, (and other established RAW converters) to simply preview?
Without being specific about Adobe or PhaseOne, licensing a third party raw converter for a DAM app is not impossible. A good example is that Extensis Portfolio used to display raw files via code licensed from Bibble. Two obvious problems though - it's not much help if the embedded raw converter isn't your chosen one, and two companies' release schedules/procedures can result in even more delay into supporting new raw file formats. OTOH, with DNGs the DAM only needs to have the ability to read the embedded thumbnails and previews and doesn't need to decode the raw data.
-
Not a fan of DNG, but I see how it plays in this matter. Interesting.
Why do we not see a software progression in this direction...meaning, why are Raw devs trying to be such the DAM/Library/Image managers? Bridge I think was a great idea, but has failed so often and with it crashing the second it sees a network drive is just not even in the discussion. Besides I really like what LR had in mind and the way you can make DB's for each client (as I do), but not supporting other images specially its own families, is just so Brutus!
I keep thinking IDImager, but that would be with seeing RAW adjustments :-)
-
Not a fan of DNG, but I see how it plays in this matter. Interesting.
The anti-Adobe crowd tend to see DNG in far too narrow terms.
Why do we not see a software progression in this direction...meaning, why are Raw devs trying to be such the DAM/Library/Image managers?
Because Aperture and then Lightroom showed that's what a lot of photographers want/need. These apps didn't emerge because Photoshop was too complex for photographers - Elements already existed - or because ACR/Bridge wasn't working. The real problem was volume, which really impacted once digital capture became the norm, and so these apps are about combining processing in bulk and managing your collections. Wanting to get into this market lay behind Microsoft's purchase of iView MediaPro in 2006, when they outbid PhaseOne, and although they've lost a few years there is still plenty of potential in combining iView and C1. For my liking PhaseOne are a bit too wedded to keeping them separate, but it's a line that appeals to some folk, and the key is going to be making the two apps communicate very smoothly. ACR+DNG+iView worked brilliantly for me, but required a bit of thought and one or two simple maintenance tasks. PhaseOne have bought what is fundamentally a very good product, with the advantage of supporting whatever file types the photographer chooses rather than setting an arbitrary line like "no video because no camera shoots it", hm, or "no CMYK because you can't do anything with it" - er, manage it with the rest of your work? But they've a lot to do, and they're treading a fine line between wanting the C1-MediaPro to be seamless with mentioning the "integration" word.
FWIW I've always wanted LR to let me decide what files I want in Library, and have a mode to display embedded previews.
John
-
So glad you posted John...I surely hope C1 doesn't merge with MPro. I think MediaPro is powerful but I do run into trouble with it often enough that I put it on the side burner. And it's execution as well as GUI for certain functions is just clunky.
LR is rather polished, and it has "safety nets" (It doesn't crash..It comes up with ? marks for folders missing or such. It asks questions for functions before it executes. It give options. It even has a start intro on how to use it so you understand its thinking. This is Mature forward thinking...BUT it feels like its specifically aimed at the "Home fine artist". As if thats all anyone uses photography for? Its as if design for the new rush and influx of SLR buyers that need RAW Dev and make family pictures of their kids, or raindrops on window macro novice shots?!! Ok, perhaps more than just that, but really leave all of production out.
LR says I will manage alllll your camera images...Just so you can see them, develop them, and send it off the way I made it for you to who I want. Your image shouldn't be used in other programs like Acrobat, InDesign, or anything else I don't want you to recognize. Further, I don't want you to know what any other imagefiles you may have in your folders.
.... ..and you don't need to know if its 16bit or 8bit, or CMYK or RGB.
ACDSee is still fast and easy to use. Yes it comes off as bit of a toy in some ways, Not always stable....and I wish they would make it network friendly and at least streamline the managing features at least across their ACDSee manager and "Pro". Oddly the manager alone is more a mature product than Pro, as it acts as jack of All. So they cripple it to sell Pro more...I don't like their business model. They were once inovative...now they run where the herd goes.
I'm really surprised how ACDsee or other DAM programs don't look at all the best features of, say LR, or Media Pro, and offer it as a DAM...Maybe IDImager is such ? But I have very limited experience with it and it has a learning curve, and I would be HAPPY to learn it if it had some RAW preview features. Time to give it a trial run!
-
exactly!!!(I just want to see that it exists!!!!)- Scott
C1 is not designed to be a photo manager...
Nor is LR if you think about it, and actually want to use the "manager" side of LR.
I rather have that as a stand alone, as it SHOULD be in my opinion. No 1 program can handle such 2 different functions and needs...there is a short coming in any Raw dev that tries to "manage" This is why C1 is powerful..The folder structure is just as it is and "reality"! No cache data....Thats the job of a DAM/Manager that WILL see ALL image files and simply launches the app that you wish or is capable of handling...Simple!
So now ...Will Adobe or C1 license their converter to another software developer for being able to only READ the cookbook?
In my opinion a "photo manager" or DAM, should be able to see if a file is 8bit or 16bit, should see if its CMYK or RGB, Should be able to see PDF images, or at least have an option to hide or see if there are other files in a given folder...Why you ask(obvious to those that already know this)...To MANAGE!
Bridge crashes anytime I try and look at a different drive (at least when CS5 was fairly new).
ACDSee Pro or Manager is a powerful program, but has week network and week core in managing...now its focus is on being a RAW converter itself.(lame). They don't even share metadata or rating and many other hangups across Manager and Pro versions. Hello!
Though, a great app for all else and a great export options , easy to use (other serious apps can LEARN lots from the ease of use and functions/features.
IDImager looks powerful, but maybe too powerful/gotta learning curve...and without RAW view...is that curve and the app worth it and will it last in the tool kit?
Media Pro is clunky at best, and has core issues, and can't see a number of simple images, populates poorly. Beast to get going and then you see small limitations of how limited you are on export with specifics and watermarks etc.
Adobe LightRoom NEEDS to adapt to such a need..Specially when other images such as PDF, or Indesign, or Illustrator ARE the family software...
This RAW lock is not helping...At least a viewer needs to be h
You shouldn't forget PhotoMoechanic photo manager.
It is fast(with RAWs, too), convenient and reliable. I saw many newspaper and wire agencies using it exclusively.
-
Have they released their long-promised database version yet?
-
Maybe IDImager is such ? But I have very limited experience with it and it has a learning curve, and I would be HAPPY to learn it if it had some RAW preview features. Time to give it a trial run!
You're right that IdImager has a steep learning curve. But it very powerful.
-
Yes PhotoMechanic is a good one...Long time since I used it.
I had forgotten about it, as at one point it was Mac only if I'm not mistaken. Then I considered it, and somehow felt it was not for studio or client work.
But they are very good with support also.
I opted for ACDSee, as PhotoMechanic is written more for news agencies, as there is a sharing module, and a number of things that I can't remember, but it was LOCATION based, if I may say...geared for News, travel...
Some export features were iffy. As the last time I looked at it was a year or 2 ago
-
See the NEW topic category, Digital Asset Management
-
johnbeardy -
EIP was always a dead end. The last thing anyone needed was another file format.
FWIW I've always wanted LR to let me decide what files I want in Library, and have a mode to display embedded previews.
Robgo2 - One advantage of stand alone DAM software is that it can easily be used with virtually any raw convertor or digital editing program
Thank you!
Independent DAM is the way to go, with Media Pro I think you get the bonus of seeing C1 raw adjusts, as in LR you get to see ACR/LR adjusts. Sadly LR is in the format of a manager, but with ONLY 3 and half formats it supports TIF, JPEG, RAW, and some PSD (compatible). No PDF, no PNG, no PSB, No others. SO its not a image or photo manager, it is a RAW and CAR/LR Raw manager, which is really limiting if you look at the potential I has with other formats. But with this limitation being the 3rd most popular complaint for Photoshop/LR, it maybe a future upgrade(?) I honestly can't see why not...well until they get this slow speed and jumpy sliders worked out.
Like mentioned you can and should already have folders doing somewhat of organization of your files. at least the structure. Otherwise you will run into trouble when if you change apps, or access files from a different system. Not having this is just OK for a single user person that has 1 or 2 computers (License will limit this). But that locks you into 1 DAM.
I agree that C1 makes a mess of folders. Anywhere you access via, it places the Captureone and all. I have learned to ignore it as much as possible.
-
I am still using the former version of Media pro1 : Microsoft Expression Media 2 - (MEM2)
I am on Nikon and noticed that loading images is using more cores, so is faster than on Media Pro 1.
I allways liked the program (since iView media) a lot for its simplicity and flexibility- I do not need one large image bank.
Instead i use a mixture of filemaker pro- CD-finder and MEM2 to find and organize everything.
The problem of being a part of Phase one is that they are not interested in other raw formats other than their own.
For instance in the Nikon NEF a full size JPG is included - MEM2 nor Media Pro1 does not use it but start showing the RAW file instead- that takes time.
Only photomechanic and Nikons ViewNX are using the internal JPEG- that is why they are so much faster.
(photomechanic as well as ViewNX are not making catalogues btw)
-
Odd how Media Pro went for the older structure of multi core to slower single! Bizarre!
I had the older MS ExMedia, but never got around to installing, and just did the upgrade jump to MediPro.
When you say "loading", what do you mean?
Some give you the option to DAMs give you the option of reading the embedded preview, and some don't. If you have a folder structure with backups in place and portability of your files isn't needed, The speed is the only reason cataloging makes use for. Except some applications as you mention PhotoMechanic, and I believe ACDSee, because it is so fast (even though it does create a DB of all), reads existing thumbs.
I'm not 100% if that is the problem of being "a part of Phase One". C1 is a raw developer originally designed for PhaseOne. It now supports other cameras as the processor was and in some ways "better" than what is out there (arguably). And Media pro is surely NOT limited to Phase One as it is more able in formats than many other Image or DAMs. But I would agree that their core interest is internal, then applicable throughout.
There are 3 pivotal points in "ingesting" the image: The capture, the process, and the managing/distribution of.
The capture is NOT the limiting factor, the process IS. LR can process just about all(not older TIF PhaseOne files), but it locks that process, as C1 does, and ANY proprietary processor. This is the point of limitation, and since it is not 100% scientific(or is it?) the application of the process is variable and hard or not allowed to manage...As processing applications are not willing to give out or even sell cookbooks.
When I asked about licensing, Johnbeardy had the reply...
Without being specific about Adobe or PhaseOne, licensing a third party raw converter for a DAM app is not impossible. A good example is that Extensis Portfolio used to display raw files via code licensed from Bibble. Two obvious problems though - it's not much help if the embedded raw converter isn't your chosen one, and two companies' release schedules/procedures can result in even more delay into supporting new raw file formats. OTOH, with DNGs the DAM only needs to have the ability to read the embedded thumbnails and previews and doesn't need to decode the raw data.
Maybe once the cookbooks are licensed we would have easier management. It would be revolutionary for a popular RAW processor to license out to a Popular or even new solid "superior"(this would be a mixed bag) DAM.
-
When you say "loading", what do you mean?
I mean importing the files into a catalogue.. btw I did not say Mediapro uses one core- i think they use two importers while MEM2 launches up to 9 importers- each that use up to 30-100% of the core- I have an 8 core macpro 2008
Some give you the option to DAMs give you the option of reading the embedded preview, and some don't. If you have a folder structure with backups in place and portability of your files isn't needed, The speed is the only reason cataloging makes use for. Except some applications as you mention PhotoMechanic, and I believe ACDSee, because it is so fast (even though it does create a DB of all), reads existing thumbs.
I know, but the way I work I like to make sub catalogues etc - i am used to the program and did not see enough improvements to switch.
There are 3 pivotal points in "ingesting" the image: The capture, the process, and the managing/distribution of.
The capture is NOT the limiting factor, the process IS. LR can process just about all(not older TIF PhaseOne files), but it locks that process, as C1 does, and ANY proprietary processor. This is the point of limitation, and since it is not 100% scientific(or is it?) the application of the process is variable and hard or not allowed to manage...As processing applications are not willing to give out or even sell cookbooks.
I have noticed a fast harddisk speeds up the process and a faster CPU. maybe Photomechanic managed by themselves to find a way to use the Jpeg inside the NEF-file or maybe the information can be found at Nikon, but remains unused… for there are so many raw formats..
I know that Nikon has made information public just how to trigger its cameras by wire- they even made an sdk.