Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: M.Piq on April 27, 2012, 09:48:09 am
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I don't know maybe I got wrong camera but at the my D800E photo you can see noise even at 200 ISO.
In NX software at the every Iso from 200 NR is applied?????
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I also got my D800E this week. I had the usual major problem and a minor one I'll have to get used to.
Michael, doesn't it bother you that when looking through the viewfinder and your eye is a bit high, that the top half of the shutter speed, f-stop etc. characters are cut off? I find my face tends to fit with my eye towards the high side and the parallax on the little window to the symbols is a bother. Mildly disappointing, but noteworthy.
My copy of the E also does not focus with the left and right single direction AF sensors. Not even close. The 3 x 5 center cross-hair sensors are perfect on my 14-24. Michael, do you not notice this on your wide angle lenses? Mine's in the shop now getting this fixed, and I've heard others having similar issues. My experience with Nikon cameras from the D70 on is that they all benefit (sometimes in a major way) with a Nikon-shop service calibration (not just the fine tuning I can do myself).
Cheers
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Very nice review. Thanks Michael.
My first two points:
A lossless compressed NEF is more or less a zipped version of a NEF. You gain absolutely nothing in terms of quality when shooting uncompressed. You just get bigger Raws.
Running a 32bit application under OS X won't change anything on the other running programs. OS X will simply treat capture nix as a 32bit application (memory constraints) and the other one will keep running fine in 64bit mode.
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there is one detail that actually is not on par with the other features of the camera:
The Live View is grainy and just barely usable for the finetuning. It works - that´s the term that comes to my mind, but not like on a 5D MK2 or 3.
Besides that - this camera is gorgeous !
Greetings from Germany
Stefan
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This is the camera I've wanted since I first started with digital in 2003, with the 1ds. All of the let downs and compromises of 35mm digital, the problems that kept me shooting film and medium format digital, have been resolved with this camera. In fairness, the D3x was really close, but it was too big. The M9 was close but not nearly an M6. After all the steps backward, finally, a leap forward. Finally, a dslr that has the DR of something close to film. And it takes all of my Ai and Ai-S lenses, even the ones my mother used when she was with the AP in the 60's.
I'll hang on to my Aptus 75s and RZ, because the larger sensor does impart a very different look, but really, between the D800 and the Fuji X100, I'm set.
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A very thorough, interesting and well-done review, as usual.
The D800/e is truly quite a price/performance offering.
Amazon, I'm waaaiting...yet the anticipation is delicious! 8)
This will be my first full-frame, and sooo nice to get back to
the familiar format from 35mm film days that I knew and loved.
Having said that, an X-Pro 1 or Nex-7 in the stable would be
nice, too. Then I'm done buying- until the next temptation comes
along from the scheming, and wicked camera makers.
Last, and probably least, it is obvious the standard model and the "e" model
are so close in image quality, it literally makes no difference which model we
chose, so now we can move on with our lives and just enjoy
taking photographs- yaaay!!
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"Capture NX2 software is not available for the Mac in 64 bit mode. WTF? This means that if you're among the 50% of photographers that use Macs, and have a recent system, you can only run NX2 in 32 bit mode. Sorry Nikon. I refuse to run my whole system in 32 bit mode (crippling other modern applications that I need) just so that I can run your raw software."
The newest version of Capture NX2 is 64bit on Mac.
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Thanks, the article has now been updated.
– UPDATE: I had originally written that Capture NX2 was not available in a 64 bit Mac version. I was in error. It didn't install properly on my computer, and in a conversation with another photographer she mentioned that she had had the same problem as me, and that in a conversation with a Nikon support rep had been told that it was for this reason. I guess she shouldn't have believed him and I shouldn't have believed her. I appologize for any inconvenience that this mistake has caused.
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Thanks especially for including the lens selection. Like you, I've detoured into m4/3 for the past couple of years, and my Nikon lens selection has thinned out...but I think this camera will pull me back in. Excellent review.
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there is one detail that actually is not on par with the other features of the camera:
The Live View is grainy and just barely usable for the finetuning. It works - that´s the term that comes to my mind, but not like on a 5D MK2 or 3.
Besides that - this camera is gorgeous !
Greetings from Germany
Stefan
Seems like every user familiar with Canon DSLR's who tries a Nikon has this complaint. What you have to realize is that the maximum zoom allowed on the Nikon liveview is not 100% pixel view. It's something like 400% and yes it is grainy and interpolated. I personally don't find this zoom level useful, some do. But if you want a clearer, actual 100% pixel view just don't zoom to the max but rather one step lower. The only time the 100% view will be grainy is in low light levels (especially if you're stopped down), but even then it will still be sharp.
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Thankfully, the D800(E) has the one-click zoom on the multi-selector that models previous to the D7000 had. They are preset to choices of low, medium, high. I tried high, but it was crazy high, probably 400%. Medium seems to work fine for me. I wonder what the exact zooms are of all three?
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I got as far as "The camera comes with an almost 450 page printed manual – and needs it" to know that the camera isn't for me.
My car has about a 400 page manual as well. That doesn't mean that I couldn't just get in and drive on day one.
Any competent photographer can just pick up and use a D800 with about 5 minutes of familiarization.
Michael
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Just looking at my canon 5D3 manual. It is 403 pages and the camera needs it. These full featured cameras need good paper manuals.
And I agree, pdfs are useless out in the field.
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It would seem that I'm an incompetent photographer.
It wasn't my intention to insult you. I hope you didn't take it that way. I was simply making the point that basic camera operation is pretty straightforward. It's only when you get into the advanced features that a manual is necessary because some of them are pretty sophisticated.
Michael
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Just looking at my canon 5D3 manual. It is 403 pages and the camera needs it. These full featured cameras need good paper manuals.
And I agree, pdfs are useless out in the field.
That's something that you can probably counteract for yourself by setting as close to manual as you can or like. I did that, and the only time it didn't work was recently, when I managed to kick +1 into the exposure compensation dial, which I certainly had never intended to use at all!
I just can't understand how photographers can embrace all this electronic stuff and appear to enjoy it. I suspect it isn't as simple as my having a dinosaurian tendency; more, I think it's the advantage that a life in film gives me. Of course, a chorus of other film users will be able to discount that at once, but I don't mind at all because it works for me.
Rob C
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It wasn't my intention to insult you. I hope you didn't take it that way. I was simply making the point that basic camera operation is pretty straightforward. It's only when you get into the advanced features that a manual is necessary because some of them are pretty sophisticated.
Michael
When I first got my D700 (my first auto-focusing SLR) I needed to read the manual and several 3rd party interpretations of the manual before I TRULY understood the ins-and-outs of the auto-focus system.
Didn't mean I wasn't shooting - and using auto-focus - on day 1.
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I don't usually read manuals. I don't have the time. I use the same workflow, more or less, with every camera I buy, medium format or compact. Most the new stuff is technogarbage we'd be better off without. ;D Then again, I'm a "digital immigrant", and perhaps my visa has expired ??? :o
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Is I see it, to get the best out of these complicated tools you need to read the manual. In the end it can improve camera handling and help you get the shot.
For example you can 'turn off' some of the crap you dont need and program in functionality that you regularly use.
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Michael - I really enjoyed reading your observations about the D800/E. I've spent my digital life with LL, coming to it at the time I was leaving film and you were posting photos from China with a Canon 5D 24-105 f4L, and knowing the time that you've spent with Canon, with MF, Leica, the D3/D700, with the 4/3rds more recently, and your objectiveness about each, I was very much looking forward to your write-up. It's very nicely done. Thanks for putting the piece together and sharing it.
Best,
Theodore
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RE: reading the manuals. To be honest not that much changes from one model to the next. Once you're familiar with Nikon DSLR's you can pretty much pick any one of them up and feel at home. Sure the higher end models have extra features that can be worth getting to know, but if you want to keep things uncomplicated there's no reason you have to learn the ins and outs of every model. And frankly some of the features are not worth messing with, for example as a RAW shooter I've never felt the desire to mess around with any of the in-camera post-processing crap, and I'm sure I'll feel the same way about the new HDR mode they've added.
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Ggg
Michael, certainly not.
My favourite imaging device is a pencil, I quickly loose patience with anything more complex.
Strange perhaps for a photographer to say, but I've no great love for cameras. The more complex they are the less I like them. The last thing I need when making images is to have to think about or worry about cameras.
With this in mind I could fairly be described as an incompetent photographer.
Took me indeed 5 minutes to get a nikon d3 working after 40 years of leica m3/m6. Another year or so to automate my manual actions on the camera, simply by taking options one at a time. At those occasions, the manual was a help. Now with an ipad i prefer pdf by the way. Just picked up my d800e from my dealer (cameranu , here in the netherlands), i was the first apparently outside of nps members.
Initial impressions concur with michaels findings.
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One more correction should be made: "In-camera multi-exposure HDR (JPG only)", this is not true, TIFF also possible, RAW not. Apparently people forget the TIFF possibility, as it is quite useless otherwise, as all quality shooters use RAW anyway. But TIFF is there.
Looking at the DR graph it is quite clear that the camera in reality more or less shoots at base ISO and just digs out the shadows more she ISO is raised. It would be interesting to shoot at 100 ISO and expose like it was 6400, then fix in Lightroom to see if it looks the same as "native" 6400 ISO exposure.
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It would be interesting to shoot at 100 ISO and expose like it was 6400, then fix in Lightroom to see if it looks the same as "native" 6400 ISO exposure.
Agree. I'm curious too :)
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Looking at the DR graph it is quite clear that the camera in reality more or less shoots at base ISO and just digs out the shadows more she ISO is raised. It would be interesting to shoot at 100 ISO and expose like it was 6400, then fix in Lightroom to see if it looks the same as "native" 6400 ISO exposure.
My reading of the DR graph, in conjunction with the ISO sensitivity graph, is that an ETTR exposure at ISO 6400 should have slightly better DR than the same exposure at base ISO. DR at base ISO, at print size, is 14.33EV. At 6 stops shorter exposure, which is equivalent to ISO 6400, DR should be 14.33-6=8.33EV. According to DXO, it's 9.17EV at ISO 6400.
In addition, the ISO at 6400 is slightly less than what it should be, if one starts doubling up from the DXO-measured ISO 74 for base ISO. ISO 6400 should be ISO 4736, but DXO rates it as 4211. Such small differences count for almost nothing, except in this case it tends to confirm that the full difference in DR of 0.84EV (9.17-8.33) might well be apparent. At the very least, taking into account margins of error in the measurements and margins of error in the QC processes of manufacture, I would expect there to be a full 2/3rds of a stop better DR when the ISO 6400 setting is used in preference to underexposing at base ISO.
It would be interesting to see if this is indeed the case in practice. 2/3rds to 3/4ths of a stop difference at such a high ISO is of an order of magnitude similar to the DR difference between the Nikon D3 and the original Canon 5D at high ISO, something which created a lot of exitement at the time.
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Hmm,
I wish that my Sony Alpha 77 SLT had a 400 page manual. You can download a PDF manual to your iPAD, or Android pad. That works.
The Sony has pretty decent user interface but a more detailed manual that actually says how things work may be helpful.
Best regards
Erik
Just looking at my canon 5D3 manual. It is 403 pages and the camera needs it. These full featured cameras need good paper manuals.
And I agree, pdfs are useless out in the field.
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At those occasions, the manual was a help. Now with an ipad i prefer pdf by the way.
For portability and readability in both daylight and darkness, maybe a reflected light e-ink reader with backlighting option would be even better: could this become part of the serious photographer's field kit, to carry thousands of pages of manuals, along with nature guides and such? (Plus reading for times when the conditions are bad for photography!) In the USA, a backlighting option has just been introduced in the Barnes and Noble Nook Simple Touch with Glowlight, and the Kindle seems likely to follow.
P. S. Sony should of course provide its manuals in versions for use on its eBook readers ... if it still makes them.
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The shadow detail and lack of noise is amazing! Wow! Time to adjust this year's budget to make room for some new kit. Or make plans for next year's budget if it remains a hard camera to obtain.
The description of what Nikon has done with the custom modes makes it sound like they let their engineers at it without consulting any photographers. But that's not enough to dissuade me.
Is MLU automatically activated when you choose a long (10 second?) shutter release time? I can't understand why they would provide "1, 2 and 3" as the available intervals for MLU timeout. What I'm used to is being able to push the remote button for mirror up and then wait some number of seconds and push it again to activate the shutter. Does Nikon not allow that or am I just reading the review words wrong?
The last time I read a review that made me sit up and take notice like that was the one for the 20D (here) oh so many years ago now and after that it was just a matter of time before I switched over from film to digital.
It's a shame that lenses are made to be camera specific and that 3rd party ones (for example), can't be refitted to a different camera by just screwing off/on mount plates. Although I suppose these days there's also electronics that needs to be changed so that the lens and camera understand each other.
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For portability and readability in both daylight and darkness, maybe a reflected light e-ink reader with backlighting option would be even better
E-ink certainly has advantages in bright sunlight—obviously, a tablet or smartphone will be at least as legible as an illuminated e-ink reader in low light—but for quick verification of a configuration option, I've found Nikon's ManualViewer app to be quite serviceable. (It's currently only available for Apple's iOS, as far as I can tell.) Even on an iPhone, it's adequate as a quick look-up tool. The iPad version is easier on the eyes if you want to read many pages of a manual.
Having said that, I think Michael makes a good point in commending Nikon for providing a paper manual. Especially when familiarizing myself with the more esoteric features of a new camera, I find I fumble less if I have only one piece of machinery to manipulate.
Chris
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This is the first DSLR that IMO is worth the premium price over the top Sonys. As soon as I saw 36MP with the high DR and the decent ISO 3200 I figured this is going to really sell, even at $3k. Well done Nikon.
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This is the first DSLR that IMO is worth the premium price over the top Sonys. As soon as I saw 36MP with the high DR and the decent ISO 3200 I figured this is going to really sell, even at $3k. Well done Nikon.
And don't forget that Sharp have already produced a really sharp 85" monitor that displays an 8k4k image, ie 32mp, or 16x HD resolution. Such monitors may not be available at an affordable price for quite a few years, but when they are, your D800 images can be displayed in their full glory, without the expense and trouble of printing. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE4argZMnsw
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For portability and readability in both daylight and darkness, maybe a reflected light e-ink reader with backlighting option would be even better: could this become part of the serious photographer's field kit, to carry thousands of pages of manuals, along with nature guides and such? (Plus reading for times when the conditions are bad for photography!) In the USA, a backlighting option has just been introduced in the Barnes and Noble Nook Simple Touch with Glowlight, and the Kindle seems likely to follow.
BJL,
I quickly realised that my Kindle DX, with large screen suitable for serious people, was lighter than my two Nikon manuals for the D700 and D7000. So I downloaded the pdf versions of these manuals from the internet and stored them on my Kindle, just in case I need to refer to the manuals when I travel.
Now that's what I call real progress. ;D
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There's one aspect that this review didn't cover and that is that the D800/E still only supports one raw file format: NEF. Is it time to give up on hoping that there will be any convergence in that space?
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—but for quick verification of a configuration option, I've found Nikon's ManualViewer app to be quite serviceable. (It's currently only available for Apple's iOS, as far as I can tell.) Even on an iPhone, it's adequate as a quick look-up tool. The iPad version is easier on the eyes if you want to read many pages of a manual.
I was unaware of that app: yes., a good mobile device app with search and such is probably the way of the future even more than PDF or HTML. For example, my birding field guide is an iOS app, not an eBook. (I am no fan of the "lowest common denominator" dogma of doing everything with universal formats at the cost of the ease of use that a custom written app can provide, but would hope for Android and/or Windows Phone versions too.)
And I agree that any device costing this much should at least have an option of a free paper manual! I confess to occasionally printing out PDFs.
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Very enjoyable read. - As usual in a broad perspective (and with a right passion) which is why it’s original as many other articles on LL – and interesting.
Thanks for valuable reviews and sharing inspiring photographs.
Hynek