Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on April 24, 2012, 07:59:20 am

Title: C1 6.4
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 24, 2012, 07:59:20 am
Was seemingly just released and is said to support the D800/D800E/5DmkIII.

I am now downloading it.

This sounds like a great move from Phaseone, I was afraid I'd have to upgrade to 7 to get this support.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 24, 2012, 09:04:40 am
Was seemingly just released and is said to support the D800/D800E/5DmkIII.

I am now downloading it.

This sounds like a great move from Phaseone, I was afraid I'd have to upgrade to 7 to get this support.

Guess this was not the best place to give you the good news eh?

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=65938.20
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 24, 2012, 09:09:48 am
Guess this was not the best place to give you the good news eh?

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=65938.20

Thanks Doug, this is really great!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 24, 2012, 02:25:55 pm
Full details of the Capture One 6.4 Bug in 10.5.8 (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/capture-one-64-bug-in-osx-1058).

Summary: there is a bug when running the new 6.4 in the old OSX 10.5.8. When you click "window" the software crashes. We've been suggesting users get off 10.5 for many months. LR4, CS5, and many other major new apps don't even support 10.5.8 at all, and the ones that are still trying to maintain compatibility often do so imperfectly with new releases. Of course some users are "stuck" because of some legacy hardware or software and cannot update; so for those users: DONT update to 6.4.

I expect that this will be fixed in the next update to C1, but that does not change my overall advise.

You can be informed in a timely manner of future similar issues as well as when this issue is resolved by subscribing to the Digital Transitions Blog RSS Feed (https://digitaltransitions.com/rss.php). This RSS feed has not been extensively used in the past, but I'm maintaining it from here out and promise to keep it up to date with such issues pertinent to Phase, Mamiya, Leaf users and anyone who uses Capture One.
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 24, 2012, 05:21:11 pm
No issues on 10.6.8.

I really like what I see on those D800 files!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: gdh on April 26, 2012, 11:33:52 am
Good morning Doug,

In reviewing the RSS feed received on this I see they recommend a clean install necessitating first an UNINSTALL.  Maybe the RSS answered this but need to ask to be sure--will this UNINSTALL and CLEAN INSTALL  eliminate all of my work in progress on RAW files?  After making tiffs of what I believe to be my "final versions" I maintain my worked on RAW files in the last processed state in case I decide to go back and make changes in RAW rather than working on the tiff, where possible, feeling it better to change in RAW than the Tiff. Do I lose all of this with a clean install and if so, is there a way around it and still have the benefits of the clean install?

Thanks
Dennis
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 26, 2012, 01:39:54 pm
Removing Application Preferences and Application Support files does not effect adjustments to raw files.

Capture One keeps the adjustments to a raw file in a sidecar in the same folder as the raws themselves.

Just got your email about the same, sorry; been out on a service call.
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Keith Reeder on April 26, 2012, 05:44:48 pm
Dennis,

you might wish to note that Phase One has always recommended the uninstall/reinstall route, but many users (including me) have never done this - without any ill-effect, as comments on the Phase One will attest to.

It's just Phase One being cautious.
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: gdh on April 26, 2012, 09:21:37 pm
Yes and I realize that and of course have not been doing it--however, I'm having issues with some of my files not being recognized by C1--for instance I have an out put folder with about 12 recently processed tiffs and C1 recognizes the folder but none of the images.  I'm looking for causes and though a uninstall and reinstall might help--if not I'm at a loss to explain why C1 isn't reading certain files :(
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Jack Varney on April 26, 2012, 11:49:34 pm
I have been upgrading Capture One Pro for over five years (from 3.x) without uninstalling the previous version and have never had an issue. I run C1 on Windows beginning with XL and now Vista 64.

The issue may be an Apple thing.
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: gdh on April 27, 2012, 01:09:56 am
Any ideas anyone has as to why C1 wont recognize some files would be appreciated.  I can go to the same file with cs5, bridge or LR3 and can read without a problem--ideas anyone????
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: gdh on April 27, 2012, 02:20:42 am
Don't see how it would be an Apple thing.  There is one file with 12 tiffs in it--C1 sees the file but not the Tiffs.  It sees the images in files above and below it.  LR, Bridge, PS  all see the tiffs in the file.  It's pretty clearly a C1 thing--but what why?
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 27, 2012, 09:24:37 am
Capture One has the following restrictions on reading TIFFs:
- must be RGB (no CYMK, Lab, or Monochrome)
- cannot be larger than a certain size of mb
- must be saved in "compatibility" mode (which is usually the default option in PS)

I'm sorry I don't remember what that file size limit is off the top of my head and I don't have time to look it up, but I think it is either 1gb or 2gb.

Another reason might be issues with file permissions (if C1 can't write to the folder to create it's cache/settings sidecars things can get wonky - though usually it will show you the thumbnail with an eyeball icon - not nothing).
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: gdh on April 27, 2012, 12:08:51 pm

"Capture One has the following restrictions on reading TIFFs:
- must be RGB (no CYMK, Lab, or Monochrome)
- cannot be larger than a certain size of mb
- must be saved in "compatibility" mode (which is usually the default option in PS)

I'm sorry I don't remember what that file size limit is off the top of my head and I don't have time to look it up, but I think it is either 1gb or 2gb.

Another reason might be issues with file permissions (if C1 can't write to the folder to create it's cache/settings sidecars things can get wonky - though usually it will show you the thumbnail with an eyeball icon - not nothing)."


I never thought of file sizes being an issue, so good to know,  but they are between 600-800MB depending on cropping, but all less than 1 GB.  This is the designated C1 output file for the project so C1 did write to it, and processed RGB;  color space IQ180-flash; and the other parameters should be covered but I'll check. Thaks for your reply.
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: gdh on April 27, 2012, 12:46:09 pm
Interesting--after I did uninstall and clean install of C! pro v 6.4, I reprocessed these images to the same output file, along side the previously processed images.  The newly processed images, same sized read fine while the old ones did not, which I trashed. So I have no idea why unless it was in the clean install, but even then, the old ones still couldn't be read in C1 but could in PS, BR and LR.  I guess problem solved but no solution  lol.
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 28, 2012, 08:02:14 pm
As much as I love the conversions generated by C1 Pro, I am discovering an issue that might prevent me from using it much. I am not sure whether it is a new 6.4 issue of whether it has been there all along.

Lack of capacity and concerns with the conditions of the HDs in my excellent Wiebetech SCSI320 Raid 5 enclusore have forced me to invest in a long term NAS, namely a QNAP 1079, one of the fastest Gigabit NAS available on the market.

I am discovering that C1 Pro is extremely slow when this disk, formated in EX4, is mounted with Samba on OSX. The NAS is connected to the Mac Pro through a gigabit hub. I'll try replacing it later today by a Netgear gigabit switch.

I assumed for a while that this was a fast as it would get compared to SCSI320... only to discover that LR4 is much much faster with the NAS. In fact LR4 is almost as fast with the NAS as it is with the SCSI unit while C1 Pro basically hangs.

Any way to configure C1 Pro to by-pass this issue? This problem will go away the day Apple comes up with a Thunderbolt enabled Mac Pro... but until then Houston we have a problem...

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on April 28, 2012, 08:23:10 pm
As much as I love the conversions generated by C1 Pro, I am discovering an issue that might prevent me from using it much. I am not sure whether it is a new 6.4 issue of whether it has been there all along.

Lack of capacity and concerns with the conditions of the HDs in my excellent Wiebetech SCSI320 Raid 5 enclusore have forced me to invest in a long term NAS, namely a QNAP 1079, one of the fastest Gigabit NAS available on the market.

I am discovering that C1 Pro is extremely slow when this disk, formated in EX4, is mounted with Samba on OSX. The NAS is connected to the Mac Pro through a gigabit hub. I'll try replacing it later today by a Netgear gigabit switch.

I assumed for a while that this was a fast as it would get compared to SCSI320... only to discover that LR4 is much much faster with the NAS. In fact LR4 is almost as fast with the NAS as it is with the SCSI unit while C1 Pro basically hangs. Any way to configure C1 Pro to by-pass this issue? This problem will go away the day Apple comes up with a Thunderbolt enabled Mac Pro... but until then Houston we have a problem...

Hi Bernard,

Perhaps the speed difference is caused by the difference in storage location of the relevant files. LR stores a catalog and the processing settings centrally (= convenient to back-up, but also relatively vulnerable to lose). Capture One stores the data distributed (as a sub-directory) together with the original files (which is more efficient when storing files and their processing parameters together, off-line). Put your data on the faster drive (and use a Back-up utility to store to NAS.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 28, 2012, 08:49:02 pm
Hi Bernard,

Perhaps the speed difference is caused by the difference in storage location of the relevant files. LR stores a catalog and the processing settings centrally (= convenient to back-up, but also relatively vulnerable to lose). Capture One stores the data distributed (as a sub-directory) together with the original files (which is more efficient when storing files and their processing parameters together, off-line). Put your data on the faster drive (and use a Back-up utility to store to NAS.

Thanks Bart.

I don't think so. I have configured lightroom so that it doesn't change the location of the files.

The long term intend is of course to put live data back in a Thunderbolt drive, but I'll wait until I see a clear willingness from Apple to upgrade the Mac Pro. The Promise raid is tempting, but it doesn't offer any interface besides Thunderbolt, which makes it unusable with my old Mac Pro.

If LR4 provides me with good performance with the NAS, then that's another reason to use it. The performance of Lightroom is simply normal, it loads files according to the transfer speed the NAS delivers, which is around 70 MB/S. C1 seems to have a problem with it.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 28, 2012, 10:23:58 pm
Quick update on this.

C1 Pro responds much faster after having replaced the Buffalo switching hub by a netgear switch.

It would be interesting to try to investigate the reason, but I'll leave that to someone else.

Anyway, problem seems mostly fixed for now.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: SpiritShooter on April 29, 2012, 11:36:24 am
After working with C1 6.4 and Lightroom with my D800 NEF files, I am REALLY liking the LR4 files. Didn't think I would ever say that as I have been a C1 fanboy for years.

Damn......
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: robgo2 on April 29, 2012, 07:46:36 pm
After working with C1 6.4 and Lightroom with my D800 NEF files, I am REALLY liking the LR4 files. Didn't think I would ever say that as I have been a C1 fanboy for years.

Damn......

Are you suggesting that LR4's rendering has improved?  If so, that may make it more attractive to those of us who have never liked the results from ACR.  OTOH, Capture One 7 is probably not too far off, and it may raise the bar further.  Personally, I will wait for C1-7 and run head to head comparisons after it arrives, as I don't want to switch horses in midstream and then have to switch right back.

Rob

Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Keith Reeder on April 30, 2012, 07:19:33 am
Lr's rendering has been better than Cap One's since Lr 3.
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on April 30, 2012, 02:38:32 pm
Don't you think subject matter comes into play with the way files are renderred in each app?

Skin/Ports maybe different, or better from say a saxophone, or a watch,  in each app...no?

Some files benefit from crunch, while other benifit from dithering...Do any of you think?

I say this with the way I have learned how to work the files in each app. It is easier for me to get a crisp and clean looking file from a PhaseOne back in C1 than it is for same file in LR3(still new to LR4)...this is regarding product images. Would love some instight if this is something on my end, or perhaps a measurable difference....So hard with all the variable adjustments and how they are used to be a clear and measurable "better" processing ...Arrgghhh!!
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: SpiritShooter on April 30, 2012, 04:56:45 pm
You are absolutely correct.

My examination of NEF files from my D800 in C1 6.4 and LR4 has be superficial at best as I have been traveling for the past 10 days. However, my initial impressions were quite favorable with the LR4 processing. I really have not processed enough files to inteligently offer an absolute conclusion.

But as I mentioned, I am really liking LR4 from the files I did get to process.

And, since I am typing this, I think the D800 is an extraordinary camera. :)
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: robgo2 on April 30, 2012, 06:17:56 pm
Lr's rendering has been better than Cap One's since Lr 3.

I totally disagree.  With the exception of files with very high levels of noise, I get much more pleasing results from Capture One.  And might I ask why you keep hanging around Capture One forums, since you obviously think it is an inferior program?  Do you derive some weird pleasure from bashing it?  No one can stop you, but one would think that after a while, you would just move on, and enjoy using whatever you like.

Rob
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on April 30, 2012, 08:46:55 pm
Lr's rendering has been better than Cap One's since Lr 3.


Maybe LR has say "straight forward" interface and easy to understand options(HSL/Color/BW I find easier in LR) than C1 to manipulate images. As mentioned with noisy files, or ones you want to do special FX on, like HDR, or ??
I like the LR interface and use with outdoor and "forgiving " work, while I use C1 mostly on studio work that needs one shot or 2 at the end of the day.
If I'm doing a lot of images in a batch like an event with people...It's LR.
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: deejjjaaaa on May 01, 2012, 12:43:27 am
Are you suggesting that LR4's rendering has improved?

I guess Eric Chan made a better .dcp camera profile for D800 to start with...
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: robgo2 on May 01, 2012, 12:18:17 pm
I guess Eric Chan made a better .dcp camera profile for D800 to start with...

No one knows.  SpiritShooter said that he likes the results that LR4 produces with D800 files, but he has not performed careful comparisons with C1-6.  So, the jury is still out on this case.  What is quite likely is that the D800 is an awesome camera that can produce great images with any raw convertor.

Rob
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: deejjjaaaa on May 01, 2012, 08:27:08 pm
What is quite likely is that the D800 is an awesome camera that can produce great images with any raw convertor.

even with the one coded in its firmware...
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Keith Reeder on May 02, 2012, 06:58:33 am
I'm not talking about colours, Phil - I'm as big a fan of Cap One's colour handling as anyone - but the demosaicing.

Lr 3/4s demosaicing algorithm renders a fine, aesthetically pleasing, smooth grain, whereas Cap One's algorithm creates an unpleasant "checkerboard" rendering that couldn't be further away from Lr's smooth grain.

If you're shooting at low ISOs you probably won't see it - but as soon as your files start creeping up there, this Cap One "blocky" artifact can become evident.

Just recently I was looking at a tutorial on Doug Peterson's site (can't remember which article it was) where he used a couple of (admittedly 300% view) crops from a Cap One conversion of - I think - a 5D Mk II file (and not a particularly high ISO either, IIRC) and the checkerboarding was glaringly obvious.

For the avoidance of any doubt, the impact of this rendering can be apparent at much less than "pixel peeping" views, and it can and does have an impact on fine detail.

Yes, it depends on what you're shooting, how the files are presented and what your personal needs and expectations are: but there's no question that for me Cap One's demosiaicing algorithm is a weak spot, especially if - like most "enthusiast" bird/wildlife photographers, including me - focal length limitations and/or a lack of control over the subject require cropping into images...

Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Doug Peterson on May 02, 2012, 09:47:16 am
That's funny. As the author of that test (hosted on my previous employer's website here (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/12/03/noise-reduction-in-c1-6/)), having worked extensively to compare the results from a variety of files from my personal archive of high ISO Canon 5D2 shots my conclusion was that C1 was the clear winner. Guess that goes to show that opinions of others that you respect are worth something, but your own testing for your own needs/priorities/aesthetics is the only test with much meaning.

I'm not saying at all that you are wrong. Quite the contrary I'm highlighting that we are both right, in so far as you're saying you like the pixel-level results from LR (your emphasis tending to be on selecting the grain structure you find more pleasing) and I like them from C1 (my emphasis being on how tonal gradations are rendered). At least we both agree that we like the color from C1 best!

I posted the raw files, as well as the JPG, and conversion style I used so that readers would be able to do their own tweaks and draw their own conclusions. Better yet, use your own files, do your own tweaks, and draw your own conclusions.

FYI the test posted was for a 5DII raw file shot at ISO6400 in mixed lighting and was selected from these series:
http://www.doug-peterson.com/elize-tomas-with-julia-kreibich-styling/ (http://www.doug-peterson.com/elize-tomas-with-julia-kreibich-styling/)
http://www.doug-peterson.com/nadine-bodypaint/ (http://www.doug-peterson.com/nadine-bodypaint/)
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on May 03, 2012, 12:29:15 am
I love Doug!
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: SpiritShooter on May 13, 2012, 04:16:27 pm
Since my last post on this topic, I have a boat load of images on the D800 using a 24/1.4, 50/1.4, and 24 TC-E. I have done extensive testing in C1 6.4 as well as LR4.

My results are mixed at best. That is, I am finding that to my eye, the C1 results are more pleasing. I find that using LCC corrections make a huge difference over LR4. Colors look better and my images look less harsh ("harsh" is a subjective description, I know).

However, I like the smoother noise rendering of the LR algorithm better.

Now, I have not seen any more' in my D800 files, but a friend send me a D800E file. C1 6.4  handled the more' which was on the edge of a fabric covered book in a studio shot. LR4 removed the color pattern but left an unpleasant monochrome pattern. Perhaps I don't understand how to work with the LR4 color noise sliders?

All in all, and I am really quite surprised that my initial observations were perhaps too quick on the trigger, but the D800 files that are being produced by C1 6.4 are superb. The LR4 files are very nice as well, but in my view, the edge goes to C1 6.4.

One area that LR4 makes life easy, is with very hot areas such as clouds. I am finding that LR4 handles over exposure much more efficiently than C1 6.4.

Hey, just my completely biased opinion.  ;)
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: Doug Peterson on May 15, 2012, 04:35:54 pm
Since my last post on this topic, I have a boat load of images on the D800 using a 24/1.4, 50/1.4, and 24 TC-E. I have done extensive testing in C1 6.4 as well as LR4.

My results are mixed at best. That is, I am finding that to my eye, the C1 results are more pleasing. I find that using LCC corrections make a huge difference over LR4. Colors look better and my images look less harsh ("harsh" is a subjective description, I know).

However, I like the smoother noise rendering of the LR algorithm better.

Now, I have not seen any more' in my D800 files, but a friend send me a D800E file. C1 6.4  handled the more' which was on the edge of a fabric covered book in a studio shot. LR4 removed the color pattern but left an unpleasant monochrome pattern. Perhaps I don't understand how to work with the LR4 color noise sliders?

All in all, and I am really quite surprised that my initial observations were perhaps too quick on the trigger, but the D800 files that are being produced by C1 6.4 are superb. The LR4 files are very nice as well, but in my view, the edge goes to C1 6.4.

One area that LR4 makes life easy, is with very hot areas such as clouds. I am finding that LR4 handles over exposure much more efficiently than C1 6.4.

Hey, just my completely biased opinion.  ;)

Glad to hear your updated reactions.

I agree LR4 does better with extreme over exposure compared to C1 6.4. I think the shadow tonality, especially color consistency, is handled better in C1 6.4.

Now of course the real question is how Capture One 7 will compare whenever that is released.
Title: Re: C1 6.4
Post by: MrSmith on May 15, 2012, 05:23:28 pm
C1 does a very good job with 5dIII files, a college sent me a few raws to look at and i couldn't resist doing the huge shadow lifting that is the zeitgeist of sensor comparison right now  ::)
really impressed with the new sensor and how c1 is interpreting them, and no sign of the pattern noise of the mkII or the kind of noise shown in popular photography website tests.